Pilgrims of Sabbocracy:
A Black Sabbath Mailing List - Issue #1245
Friday February 16, 2007
Please send list submissions to list@black-sabbath.com.
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This Issue's Lyric:
"A rumble of thunder, I'm suddenly under your spell
No rhyme or reason, or time of the season, but oh well
The darkened deliver, I shake and I shiver down your soul
You know what to cover, I think for another it's a story told
So get a good hold, yeah"
(Turn Up the Night - Mob Rules 1981)
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Today's Topics:
Last issue
Re: Tony Martin Era and List Redundancy
Ozzy, Dio, whatever...
Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1243
RE: RE: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1242 - Ozzy's opinion of "Born Again"
Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1242
Mistake made/Final revised Heaven & Hell wishsetlist for 2007 Tour!
Rumour mongering scum
To Josh - Info From Wikipedia
Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1243
heaven & hell New York City
sabbath Vocalists
Doom Let Loose
Re: Dio, Schmio, let's here the Martin era!!
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Date: Fri 16 Feb 2007
From: Joe Siegler <siegler@black-sabbath.com>
Subject: Last issue
Some people were sending me emails saying that my link to the cover art for
the Dio Years disc was blank, or invalid, or something like that. That's
because you're clicking straight out of your mail client, and my website is
thinking you're trying to display the image in your mail client.
I have protection on my site to stop people from thieving my bandwith, and
that's why you're seeing blank. Don't click straight out of your mail
client for that, and you'll be fine (in other words, copy/paste the url
into a browser, and it will work).
Or just go to my Sabbath site's news page. It's there.
http://www.black-sabbath.com/news/index.htmlAlso, don't forget, you can now pre-order "Black Sabbath: The Dio Years"
through Amazon and Amazon UK. Here are the links:
Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NA77YO/73407921Amazon.co.uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NA77YO/blacksabbatho-21Joe Siegler
siegler@black-sabbath.com
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:21:35 -0800
From: Josh <electrokinesis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tony Martin Era and List Redundancy
Hello,
I see that there has been a lot of praise shown for Tony Martin lately. Let
me just say that Tony Martin is an awesome singer. He is NOT a Dio clone,
despite the comments that everyone makes regarding this issue. Their voices
have small similarities between them, but there are lots of singers out
there that sound similar to each other; whether it's coincidence, or
someone is so influenced by another's talent that they try their hardest to
copy that particular sound.
However, I will pose a few statements to think about as to why the Tony
Martin era of Black Sabbath didn't/doesn't receive the respect that it
deserves:
1) Now of course, The Eternal Idol was released on Warner Bros. and Vertigo.
However, moving to IRS Records afterward, this was a very bad move as they
were a sub-par label for Sabbath to join.
As far as I know, Sabbath was the only metal group signed to the label.
IRS' focus was mainly on new wave, alternative, punk and some reggae acts.
The only experience IRS had with metal prior to Sabbath AFAIK was from
releasing the film, The Decline Of Western Civilization 2: The Metal Years
(1988).
When Headless Cross was released, IRS was distributed in the US and Canada
by MCA Records (now defunct, as it has folded into Geffen Records). MCA was
also a very terrible label for metal. MCA had previously signed Geordie,
Diamond Head, and for a small time Alice Cooper. These were the only acts
that I know of that MCA had released as "metal". With the exception of
Alice's records, good luck finding any of this stuff in print.
I remember reading an article with Tony Iommi roughly stating that he
almost punched out a MCA label rep in Canada at an autograph signing
because they couldn't keep their records in stock.
When IRS switched distribution to Capitol (US/Canada) and EMI (rest of the
world), they didn't fare much better. Which is why here in the US, you will
find the IRS-Martin era of Sabbath usually on sale now for $5.99 on CD due
to poor sales and perhaps, lack of interest. I can't speak for the import
copies of Dehumanizer.
2) I also think what really killed Sabbath during this period too, was the
fact that Martin was relatively unkown compared to Dio, Gillan and Hughes
and that the constant personnel changes in the rest of the band was
relatively confusing for fans. Did adding Cozy Powell really help this
situation?
3) One last thing to think about is that Sabbath, IMO, started to sound
like every other metal band after Martin joined, and that the originality
of the "classic sound' was in question. Now, the Ozzy purists will say that
this occured after 1979. I will say that the albums after Ozzy lost the
classic sound too, but I think this has to do with Martin Birch's
production. The Dio-era records remind me more of a hint of Rainbow, Iron
Maiden, and Dio's later albums, than Sabbath.
You will also notice how Tony Iommi started adding more effects to his
playing, especially live, during the Born Again phase. Was this a way of
compensating?
4) In regards to all of the "Heaven and Hell" news, I think some of you
need to read more about what's going on. Joe himself said that if he had
extra news to tell, then he will post it. Period. Please stop asking the
same redundant quesrtions over and over again. It's really a waste of time
and space. And on that same note, I apologize if any of this post offended
some of you, and for the length as well.
- Josh E.
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From: "Matt Hanlon" <war_piggys@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ozzy, Dio, whatever...
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:06:47 -0400
Hey i just thought id chime in and say at first i was skeptical wether i
should accept this Heaven and Hell tour, because i have always been a fan
of the origional lineup 68-78. But i do admire Dio as a signer. With only
two origional members that being Tony and Geezer, i felt it shouldnt be
called Black Sabbath and have felt the same way with all of Tony's
ever-changing lineups, but on this tour the band shall be dubbed "Heaven
and Hell" and i can now respect the Dio era and break out my old Heaven and
Hell album. All the power to them. Dio's a great vocalist. ill be there on
some leg of the tour.
[ Ed Note: It really *IS* Black Sabbath. Shame you're so caught up on the
name, and can't just enjoy the music. ]
-Mattyboyyy
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Subject: Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1243
From: Eric Goldberg <egoldberg@hubgroup.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:01:32 -0500
As further evidecne that Sabbath (or Heaven and Hell) is once again being
neglected by the mass media, VH1 Classic is running news banners that Eddie
and Alex Van Halen are going to reunite with David Lee Roth and Eddie's
son, Wolfgang, on bass for a 40 city US tour. VH1 Classic is also running
banners that the Police are reuniting for a tour. But I have seen no news
on this BS / H&H disc and tour aside from the band members' official web
site and our favorite fan site. Why not?
[ Ed Note: Let me say that it's the US media. I've been told that in
Europe, it's gotten some serious attention. Also, Eddie Trunk has been
pushing it a lot, too. But Eddie "gets it", where most people don't. ]
Certainly VH1 Classic has "promoted" Sabbath along with other hard
rock/heavy metal bands recently by showing both the US and UK Hall of Fame
inductions, by running new shows like The 20 Greatest Heavy Metal Bands and
The 40 Greatest Hard Rock songs, and re-running both The 100 Greatest
Artists of Hard Rock and The 100 Greatest Heaavey Metal Moments. All of
which are being run in heavy rotation, and all of which include Black
Sabbath in some capacity.
Who is to blame for this neglect regarding the reformation of many people's
(possibly my own) favorite line-up of my favorite band? More importantly,
am I really upset about it, or does it reinfoce my belief that Sabbath are,
as they have always been in their many incarnations, a band of and for the
disaffected outsider who does not need public assent to validate
themselves, their beliefs, or their lifestyle?
To me, they are so much more than just a band; they are a symbol of
strength in the face of adversity and the epitome of perserverance. They,
as a unit, don't just addfress going against the grain regardless of public
opinion; they walk the walk and live that life. And, yes, they are a great
band; and, yes, they rock hard and with feeling.
See you in NYC!
(...and again when you tour the US more extensively.)
Eric Goldberg
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From: "Jannick Nielsen" <jannick-nielsen@tdcadsl.dk>
Subject: RE: RE: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1242 - Ozzy's opinion of "Born Again"
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:45:21 +0100
> Personally, I don't know why so many have criticised the mix of "Born
> Again"...it's dark, heavy and creepy - as Sabbath should be!
I really like this album too. It's dark and heavy allright, however
compared to the original mix it is a bit "muddy". I like both mixes.
Regarding the Heaven And Hell project: Let the old men play and fool
around. It is the time of reunions and I am looking forward to this. Now
we're all going to see Heaven And Hell and who knows? In two-three years
it's perhaps time to see "Headless Cross" (feat. Iommi, Martin, Nicholls,
Rondinelli and Murray). I like Black Sabbath. Every line-up has it's own
sound and I really can't compare them and tell which one is the best.
[ Ed Note: I would be some serious money you'll never see Martin as the
Sabbath vocalist again. ]
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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:19:55 -0500
From: "Rob Dwyer - Sabbathlive.com" <sabbathlive@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1242
The Ozzy quote about Ian Gillan may have been taken from one of the
interviews that Martin did with him. This is purely speculation, but I
know that a lot his material was culled from various interviews he'd done
with Sabbath members over the past few years. I don't doubt that Ozzy
might have said that. He's never had any reason to disrespect Ian Gillan
as far as I know.
Rob Dwyer
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From: jamx67@comcast.net
Subject: Mistake made/Final revised Heaven & Hell wishsetlist for 2007 Tour!
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 03:12:41 +0000
Hello again Heaven & Hell Nation,
Here is a revised/nonmistake wishsetlist for Heaven & Hell Tour
2007/(supposed 2 hr. set?!):
E5150 (Intro.) / Mob Rules
Turn Up The Night
Letters From Earth
Children Of the Sea
Lady Evil
Voodoo
New Track...
Walk Away
Lonely Is The Word
Time Machine
Too Late/Guitar Solo (Same As Dehumanizer Tour '92
w./early +Of Thorns riff oriented Jam, but no early Sab. riffs)!
New Track...
Wishing Well
After All (The Dead) (With Drum Solo @ the end)
Sign Of The Southern Cross/Buried Alive (Medley includes most of each track)!
New Track...
Sins Of The Father
" I "
Keon Knights
Encore:
Die Young
Falling Off The Edge Of The World
Heaven & Hell (Just like the 1980 studio version
w./ H. & H. Reprise @ the end)!
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:21:58 +1100
From: "White, John" <John.White@canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Rumour mongering scum
I just belatedly read the news section at
http://www.black-sabbath.com/news/ regarding the attrocious comments made
by some arsehole purportedly coming from Bill Ward re the Heaven & Hell
tour & Dio's motives. If any of you know the source of this shit I would
love to know so I can send the perpetrator a nice message :-) This is
equivalent to slagging off my father (or in some younger fans cases, their
grandfather) & it's just not on! Someone who has been recording & giving us
all great music since 1958 deserves more respect than this. I hope this
bastard gets a really nasty, incurable genital disease!
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From: "dim geo" <atomo133@hotmail.com>
Subject: To Josh - Info From Wikipedia
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:37:41 +0200
I believe that when OZZY made that statement he was refering to the
DIO-years of the band. They never had what we 'd call "good
relationships"!
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Zebr=E3o?= <zebrao@dglnet.com.br>
Subject: Re: Pilgrims of Sabbocracy #1243
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:51:13 -0200
Great, Iommi, Butler, Dio and Appice are back in business. Iīm here in
Brasil waiting for the dates and places to be confirmed and Iīve already
got 12 guys to rent a van to see the show. Iīve also told my boss that Iīll
be missing the job the next day :o)
This line-up is the very best for me. Donīt get me wrong, the original was
simply perfect, the creators of a whole new sound and I love every single
song from that period (except Breakout from Never Say Die) and love the
Martin era (too much under rated - the Headless Cross album is one of my
favorites just like Anno Mundi and Kiss of Death are among my favorite
songs) and the Born Again album (the sound of this one is what Iīve always
expected to hear again) but Dio is my favorite singer of all time and when
he team up with Tonny and Geezer the results are brilliant, just pure Heavy
Metal !!
I couldnīt care less about the name they are calling themselves now, they
are Black Sabbath indeed. If you donīt like it, forget about it and enjoy
the show.
[]s
Zebrao
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:51:12 -0800 (PST)
From: john osbourne <osbournejohn@yahoo.com>
Subject: heaven & hell New York City
Hi everybody,
I was able to get two tickets to see Heaven & Hell in New York City on
March 30th. I am really excited as this will be my first time seeing Dio
with Tony and Geezer. I was able to see Dio years ago on the Angry
Machines tour with Vinnie at a small venue called the TLA on South St. in
Phila. PA. Ronnie came out onto the street and signed autographs after the
show, and he was an absolute gentleman. He really is one of the good guys
in rock. I am very happy to see him playing sold out arenas again.
I live in the Phila area, and I plan to head to NYC on the 30th really
early in the morning to check out the city and such; I have never been to
New York. Anyway, if anybody hears anything about any in store appearances
by Heaven and Hell in NYC or anything else, can you please let me know?
I am expecting a lengthy NYC show; this is what I've heard. It will be
great to see Tony Iommi stretch out a bit, and play some music that I
haven't heard him play in quite sometime. I am really hoping to hear
Children of the Sea, The Sign of the Southern Cross, and Die Young.
Anybody notice how compatible Tony Iommi really is. Over the last 8 years
he has recorded with Ozzy Osbourne, Ian Gillan, and Ronnie James Dio. I am
sure, we can all hear, that he has to adapt to all these different styles.
He is truly one of the greats, and I can't wait to see him again.
On a side note. Please read Martin Popoff's book "Doom Let Loose." I
thought Gary Sharpe Young's book was the definitive Sabbath book. Doom Let
Loose is a great companion and is equally good on some levels. You will
see great memorabilia and pictures that you may have never seen. It is
also a page turner.
If you have Gillan's Inn, check your booklet. Does your copy mention
Demon's Eyes? My copy does-but the track isn't on the album. Anybody else
notice this. If you haven't picked up Gillan's Inn, you should-great
album. Tony's contribution is great as usual. To have a recording with
Tony, Ian Gillan, Ian Paice, and Roger Glover is a really neat thing.
Take care everyone,
John Osbourne-I will get back with a full report on the Heaven & Hell show
after the 30th!
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From: "webmaster" <webmaster@bizzywebs-design.co.uk>
Subject: sabbath Vocalists
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:49:18 -0000
Is Ozzy the best, or is Dio the worst?
No, they are all different. Back in '69 we had the Beatles legacy that
represented the transition from the 'rock'n'roll' of the 50's to the
'Flower Power' of the 60's which was giving to Prog and Heavy Rock. We had
In Rock from Deep Purple - with Speed King starting as they meant to go on
(unless you had the US single version that missed the first 90 seconds off,
seems our Yank cousins ears were deemed to fragile to be subject to such an
aural bombardment), Zeppelin 1 and the birth of something else altogether -
so new they had to invent a name for it. Heavy Metal began with Black
Sabbath, today they may well call it Doom Metal, the tolling of the bell,
heavy solid power chords and that gravely growling voice of Ozzy.
Whomever has fronted the various incarnations of Sabbath only That line-up
could have produced That album at That time with That impact on music
history.
The first 4 albums were the best of the Ozzy era. I saw Sabbath in their
home city of Birmingham (England not Alabama) along with 'Black Oak
Arkansas' (what ever happened to them?) in 73/4 and was totally blown away.
A few years later I caught them again, in London, with Dio fronting them.
Though the Dio songs were excellent he cannot sing Ozzy era songs - sorry
but Dio clips his words and Paranoid just didn't sound right when clipped
like that!! Make no mistake I like the studio albums Dio did with Sabbath
and solo, but I thought Tony Martin was vocally better suited to the band.
His voice seemed more fluid and versatile but with the power to match
Iommis riffs .
The Gillan album? I still, after all these years, cannot make up my mind
whether I like it or not. I think it maybe because Ian Gillan rightfully
belongs in Deep Purple.
A few years ago I again caught the newly reformed Sabbath in Birmingham and
was transported back almost 30 years to the Music Hall. Good solid early
Black Sabbath.
But what of the future? I bought the Iommi/Hughes album 'Fused' last year
and WOW! This is what Sabbath should maybe sound like now. As far as I am
aware Black Sabbath appears caught in a time warp whilst the main
protagonists, Ozzy and Tony, seem to be pursuing their own solo avenues.
Now that Bill Ward has again left with, I seem to remember Appaichie is
back in the fold, something may happen, though I doubt it somehow. I would
like to be proved wrong.
RIP Black Sabbath. Long Live Black Sabbath.
foul-ole-ron
Luton
England
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From: "Nick Hambleton" <mknickh@qld.chariot.net.au>
Subject: Doom Let Loose
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:49:44 +1000
Greetings,
Recently read Martins POPOFFs latest, Doom Let Loose , so I though I would
share a few thoughts with you. Given that you subscribe to this list you
really don't need any more reason to read a publication about this band.
Even one that, shock horror, bridges the 1979 to "Reunion" period. Having
said that, this is not, and I don't think is ever intended to be, a rival
to the works of Garry SHARPE-YOUNG, be they in the original formats of
Never Say Die and the Story of the Ozzy Osbourne Band, or the
combined/expanded volume now entitled The Battle for Black Sabbath. The
latter of which I must confess to not having read in light of having
previously invested in the seperate volume versions. I believe NSD would
take a power of beating as a history of the post Ozzy years. However,
comparisons are, I would suggest inevitable. POPOFF does not adopt the same
broad historical overview as SHARPE-YOUNG, or indeed limit his book to the
79 onwards period. Instead he examines each album individually from Black
Sabbath through to Forbidden, with the exception of Live at Last, which he
does not deal with due to its "unofficial" status (hair splitting I reckon,
but there you go). Each album gets a seperate chapter. There is some
background to the circumstances surrounding the recording of the album,
i.e. discussion of line up changes, studios etc, but this is not approached
in anywhere near the depth of SHARPE-YOUNG, although a couple of the
anecdotes bear a remarkable similarity to those related in SHARPE-YOUNG's
book. I cast no aspersions, but I reckon anybody reading both books will
have no difficulty in identifying the areas I am referring to. There are
plenty of photographs, displayed again in the appropriate chronological
order. Nothing earth shattering, but not bad. The picture sleeves of
various 7" vinyl singles/ep's are of interest but I think the concept of
photos of the actual records was a bit overdone. How many photos of pieces
of black vinyl do you need? Perhaps I am carping. The approach taken with
this book is overall a little limiting, and the book may perhaps come
across as a tad superficial, especially when viewed against the
aforementioned definitive tome on the subject. It may be unreasonable to
be constantly comparing this book to NSD but I don't profess to be
professional literary critic. I am just calling it as I see it. I would
certainly be interested to read the opinions of other subscribers to the
list. I have probably raved on more that I intended to. In summary,
despite what may appear to be a somewhat harsh view expressed here, viewed
wholly in isolation from you know what, I would rate this a solid 3.5 out
of 5 stars, and I would strongly recommend you all support the author by
laying down your hard earned and buying what is a thoroughly enjoyable
book.
cheers
Nick H
Mackay Australia
[ Ed Note: To everyone - if you're going to write this much, please use
paragraphs. One big block of text is hard to read. ]
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From: "Travis Gerbig" <scimitar24@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dio, Schmio, let's here the Martin era!!
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:16:06 +0000
I think that the so called "Tony Martin era" was Tony Iommi's best period
as a technical player in concert and possibly the tightest live playing we
ever had from Black Sabbath. I too have a lot of fond memories of this
"era" because the old classic tracks got well represented plus we had new
material that was exciting and showed a range of depth and color. It felt
great to be a Sabbath fan back then.
I think Heaven & Hell is a huge step forward toward reclaiming their
legitimacy as a musical group and away from being the backing band to some
media celebrity. I was a big fan of the "Dio era" too. I am a Black Sabbath
fan. For me it was never a popularity contest. It was uncool to be a
Sabbath fan for my whole life. I never listened to the critics anyway,
because they always hated Sabbath.
I think Heaven & Hell would be a great way to retire Black Sabbath. The so
called "Martin years" have been well documented by the studio and concert
recordings that are available. I think that those who were a part of
Sabbath fandom back then will always keep that "era" alive. It's always
going to be tragically underrated though.
It's a pity we ever got into all this breaking such a fine musical legacy
into "eras" or questioning the legitimacy of any part of it.
T
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NOTES:
1) To contribute to the next issue, please send email to:
list@black-sabbath.com. If you send in a submission that goes
anywhere else besides this, it likely will not get used. Also,
make sure list submssions aren't CC'ed or BCC'ed. Those tend to
get deleted by by spam interceptor software. Make sure a list
submission is *TO* list@black-sabbath.com.
2) DO NOT SEND HTML MAIL TO THE LIST - it is likely to be deleted.
The reason is that I don't have the time to process most HTML mail,
as it comes through to me in a jumbled mess. Send me ASCII (aka
"regular") mail, PLEASE!!
3) Back issues of the newsletter are available in the "Newsletter Archives"
section of our online forums which are available here:
http://www.black-sabbath.com/forums4) Special Delivery Notes:
a) Juno users: I know that your system has a 64k limit on messages.
I will try not to go over that limit with messages.
b) AOL users: Depending on how large a sablist msg is, your system
is going to download the first 2k of this email and then stop.
Download the file to your system and then open it using any word
processor.
5) We have our own forums - you can visit those here:
http://www.black-sabbath.com/forums6) Black Sabbath Web pages of note:
* Joe Siegler's Black Sabbath WWW page is at:
http://www.black-sabbath.com * Alexander Rack's Black Sabbath Fan Club Deutschland Info page is
at:
http://www.black-sabbath.de7) Official Sab Band Member Sites:
http://www.heavenandhelllive.com (The 2007 Tour Page)
http://www.billward.com (Bill Ward)
http://www.cozypowell.com (Cozy Powell)
http://www.iommi.com (Tony Iommi)
http://www.tonymartin.net (Tony Martin)
http://www.ozzy.com (Ozzy Osbourne)
http://www.geezerbutler.com (Geezer Butler)
http://www.ronniejamesdio.com (Ronnie James Dio)
http://www.gillan.com (Ian Gillan)
http://www.vinnyappice.com (Vinny Appice)
http://www.bobdaisley.com (Bob Daisley)
http://www.eric-singer.com (Eric Singer)
http://www.jezzwoodroffe.com (Jezz Woodroffe)
http://www.glennhughes.com (Glenn Hughes)
http://www.donairey.com (Don Airey)
8) For further information, contact Joe Siegler at:
siegler@black-sabbath.com.
*****
# S #
********* ********* We're also supported by the offical Sabbath
# B L A C K # fan clubs in Germany and the U.K.
********* *********
# B # The views expressed in this mailing list are
# # those of the individual authors only, and not
# B # necessarily those of the list maintainer or
# # his place of employment.
# A #
# # All spelling mistakes are that of the orignal
# T # poster. The list editor does not spell check
# # this newsletter.
# H #
*****
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son,
Jesus Christ, that whoever believed in him shall not
perish, but have everlasting life.
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