Straight Up: Terry "Geezer" Butler is a living Rock -N- Roll Legend. If I have to describe his pioneering bass work with Black Sabbath to you, I'd probably have to fill you in on Active Pickups, The Beatles, and the Apollo Moon Shots as well! To sum things up; Black Sabbath has influenced every hard music artist around today, from Metallica to Nirvana to Soundgarden to White Zombie! Now, after 20+ years of multi-platinum albums and sold out arena tours with the Sab's and former bandmate Ozzy Osbourne, Geezer has finally left home for good and started his own project. The band is called G//Z/R and the record, titled Plastic Planet, has just been released via TVT Records (NIN, KMFDM). We caught up with Geezer on the opening night of Ozzy's latest tour to discuss his departure from Sabbath, his future with the Oz, and the birth of his new project, G//Z/R.

KB: Obviously you weren 't hurting for work. What made you decide to do this project?

GB: I've wanted to do it for the last 16 years or so, and this was just the right time to do it. I was so frustrated in Sabbath after the last few albums. I just didn't like the musical direction Sabbath was going in. I was writing lots and lots of stuff and I felt that it was more fulfilling than the stuff we were doing in Sabbath, so I thought, "well, Sabbath's finished now so I'm just going to do me own thing."

Your music has influenced practically every hard-music artist in existence today. Do you feel that with your new project, G//Z/R (which features young, new artists and some contemporary leanings), that things have come full circle?

Well, I've felt that a lot of the newer bands are doing what Sabbath should be doing. I've always wanted to go back to the heavy stuff. That's where we started and that's what people like us for and we were getting further and further away from it. Nobody seemed to understand that! I was writing heavy stuff and they were like, "You can't do that."

How did you go about choosing the other members of G//Z/R?

Pedro and I have been working with each other for the past ten years or so jamming and writing. I used to get up and jam with his band in England a lot. I love the stuff that he writes so quite a lot of his riffs are on the album as well. I was auditioning drummers in England and I wasn't getting anywhere. I was doing the Ozzy album and I played some of the stuffto Dean (Castronova - Ozzy's drummer) and he loved it. So the drummer was taken care of. I couldn't find a singer anywhere and I called Scott (Koenig - FF & Biohazard Manager) and asked him if he knew anybody that was suitable for my stuff. He sent me some tapes along with the Fear Factory advance CD. I listened to the tapes and there was some good stuff but then I listened to the Fear Factory and said, "that's exactly what I want - someone who can go from aggressive to melodic," and I asked if he knew anyone similar to Burton (Bell - FF vocalist) and he said how about Burt? So we brought him over to England and played him the music and he loved it and we went from there.

Tell us about the creative process of G//Z/R and how it's different from working with Tony lommi and Ozzy Osbourne.

Pedro sat down in my home studio and just wrote loads and loads of different things. I have millions of riffs from over the years and we just basically played a few tapes and turned riffs into songs. We had over thirty songs written by the time Burt came along. Then I wrote all the Iyrics and let Burt pick out which Iyrics went to what music. As far as comparing it to Sabbath or Ozzy; on this one I' m in total control.

Did you have creative input on the last few Sabbath albums ?

I wrote four or five songs on Dehumanizer, which was good because I liked working with Ronnie (Dio - former Rainbow and Sabbath vocalist, reunited with Sabbath for 1992's Dehumanizer album), and the last album Cross Purposes, I probably did about 2, but I wasn't happy with the way it came out at all.

You know that with certain bands there's a creative chemistry where the members work together to create music. Do you feel you have that with G//Z/R ? Did you ever have that with Sabbath ?

We used to have that with Sabbath, yeah. Then it just fizzled out. This time it's mainly me and Pedro and we do the whole thing, really. I thought that Dehumanizer was a particularly brutal album, because Ronnie came in. You see, Tony wouldn't do any of the stuff that I was writing, but Ronnie came in and listened to all of the stuff I was doing and he insisted on doing my stuff as well as Tony's stuff. It was like a breakthrough! Then Cross Purposes came and Tony Martin (current Sabbath vocalist) - who hates all heavy music - came in and said, you can't do that, it sounds like Pantera!

Getting back to the music. It seems that a lot of the lyrical themes that are on Plastic Planet were happening back on Dehumanizer. Was that your doing?

Yeah. The Dehumanizer thing was a whole concept I had for that album, but unfortunately only a bit of it was used. Dehumanizer is this character, again, like "Catatonic Eclipse" (off of Plastic Planet), who programmed God and Satan into this computer and the whole thing took over the world.

How involved were you with the songwriting in Sabbath ?

I probably wrote 95% of them. Black Sabbath was written on bass: I just walked into the studio and went, "bah, bah, bah" (Hums riff to "Black Sabbath") and everybody joined in and we just did it. However long the song is was how long it took us to write it. So most of the stuff was just done from jams. Like "NIB" just started with me doing the bass riff and everybody joined in. In those days we didn' t have tape recorders or anything and nobody would write stuff at home and bring it to the studio. We just used to go to the studio and jam for two or three hours and see what came out.

Did you write a lot of the early stuff while you were recording it?

Definitely ! The first record, we just went in and played it. It was like Sabbath live but in the studio, and the producerjust cut out things. One song, "Warning," went on for like thirty five minutes, and he just cut out selected bits, like the twenty minute guitar solo! (Laughs)

On the early Sabbath albums you guys frequently stretched out into free-form jams. Were these parts worked out before hand or improvised ?

When we first got together there were loads of soul clubs in England and all anybody wanted to do was dance music, plus there were blues clubs. We used to get these gigs in Germany where we'd have to play eight or nine 45 minute spots every day. And we only knew about ten songs so we had to make them into 40 minute songs, which is where all the jamming came from, and where the first two albums came from, because we wrote them while we were jamming. To me, Sabbath was always JUSt a really heavy blues band. That s all we were - just an out-and-out 12-bar blues band. That's what we started as. We just took those blues roots and made them heavier, because we were into Hendrix and Cream, who were like the heaviest bands around at that time. We just wanted to be heavier than everybody else!

Your Bass playing is deeply rooted in the Blues. Can you name some of the early influences that inspired you to play this way?

Jack Bruce. As soon as I saw him, it changed me. I didn't even know what bass players did until I saw Cream. What I used to play was rhythm guitar before I saw him. I saw Jack Bruce and said, "that's what I want to do in life." He was definitely the main influence.

Early on Sabbath showed a variety of musical styles and later narrowed down to the "Heavy Metal " sound Why the stylzstic change ?

I think when you write your first album you're influenced by all the stuff that's going on around you, and I think each one of us brought our own particular styles into the music that we did. So, in the beginning all the different influences you've had up until then come together on one album, and from there it gells into this one sound rather than lots of different things. When you realize you've got your own sound then you can just pick up on that and just keep it in one direction.

How long beforeyou thought, "Hey, we've got the Sabbath sound going?" On what album do you feel you guys really gelled ?

I thought it happened on Paranoid (second album, 1970). On the first one (self titled, 1970) we didn't really know what we were doing!

You're one of the few players who switches between pick and finger style playing. What made you decide to explore both techniques, and how often do you use each of them?

With the Ozzy stuff I use the pick quite a lot, because I'm doing all of Bob Daisley's (Ozzy's original bassist) bass lines, and he plays permanently with a pick, and I think it sounds better with a pick. Plus it's easier to play (laughs)! If you want a more attacking sound or a faster one, if you're playing with your fingers it gets too muffly if you go to fast, so I like to get more definition by using a pick. Because I practice a lot on guitar now, I'm getting used to using a pick. Before I couldn' t do it.

Out of all the incarnations of Sabbath, Ozzy, and your solo projects, who has been the drummer you 've enjoyed playing with most and why?

Nobody's ever gonna replace Bill (Ward) on the old stuff, because we just sort of grew together. I never even played bass until I met Bill. I never picked a bass up before Sabbath started. So, I just played bass to whatever he was drumrning, so it just locked in perfectly. Vinnie (Appice) was really good as well for locking in with the bass. So Bill, really, and I love Dean (Castronova). What he plays is incredible.

You've always experimented with effects. Can you name some of the units you've used in the past and what you 're using now ?

I don't use anything at all now except for a chorus pedal and a flanger, just in the Ozzy stuff. I used to have this Yamaha pedalboard, I think they only made a few of them. It was like an experimental thing - I don't think they ever went on sale. I used that particularly on the Born Again album. There was lots of stuff on that - all those weird, bloody things that everybody thought were keyboards! It was bass! I tend to sort of try something and then once I've done it I really don' t go back to it - like the wah wah on "NIB," for instance. Unless it works really well I won't bother with it. I just prefer playing straight bass.

What basses are you currently using live?

Live I'm using Vigier (a French Manufacturer). In the studio I'll use really old Fender P-Basses. Well, not really old - '68 or '69.

Didn't you use a Vigier Five string for a while?

Yeah, but not for the Ozzy thing. If it doesn't call for that sort of stuff, I won't use it. I tried it on some of my stuff but it just didn't need it.

What about Amps ?

I use Ampeg SVT's and custom Marshall cabinets with EV speakers. I'm using a Digitech Digital EQ as well with it.

Do you have a "favorite instrument of all time ? "

Not really. I love this Fender that I've got now - an old ' 69 P-Bass. It's incredible! I cut most of the Ozzy album with it and most of my album as well. It seems to have come full circle because I started off using Fenders! I recently found my original old Fender P-Bass that I cut the Paranoid album with; It's been at my sister's house for the past 25 years! I just found it and redid it and got it working again.

Are the instruments stock or do you modify them ?

On the Vigier I've had the pickups moved to a more traditional configuration, and I've got scalloped necks and just different controls than the standard Vigier - a lot more bottom end. I like to get a bass and tell them what's wrong with it rather than start by telling them what I want! (Laughs)

Are there any new technologies for bass that you 'd like to experiment with (MIDI, Synthesis) ?

I was writing a lot of my album on the Roland Guitar synth. I was using a guitar and had the synth set on bass end, so I was getting like ultra-heavy riffs!

Tell usabout your new project G//Z/R and how it feels to play with a group of younger musicians. Are they pushing you at all ?

No, I' m pushing them ! (Laughs) It's great because I can beat them up and shake them. Seriously, we get on really well.

Does it feel like a band to you ?

Absolutely! Especially when we only had two weeks to get everything together, including rehearsals. We had two weeks in the studio, two days of which were rehearsals and we had never worked together before. Everybody just wanted to do it and was so into it. It was incredible to have that much enthusiasm for once, instead of going in and going, "oh, what are we gonna do on this one?" It was great! Everybody really wanted to do it this time.

There was the enthusiasm that had been missing for years. When Ronnie (Dio) came back it was like "why don't you sing this?", and he was like, "What the fuck do you know about singing?!" Now it's like, 'Oh yeah, we'll try that."' Doing stuff with Tony (Iommi), for instance, I was writing a riff and he'd do something to it and I really couldn't say, "that's crap, try something else." You couldn't confront anybody incase it would hurt their ego. It was a ridiculous situation to be in. That's why the band wasn't getting anywhere in the end. I could do something on bass that was terrible and nobody told me. I'd have to go home and Pedro would come over to the house and go, "What the hell are you doing?!?" We just couldn't talk about it anymore in Sabbath. The easiest possible way without upsetting anybody, was to just go along with it. The only reason I did the Ozzy album was because all I had to do was go in, put me bass down and that was it.

How's it working with Ozzy? Is he very critical of what you play?

He wasn't even in the studio when I cut my bass tracks! Ozzy is great to work with.

How will your work with G//Z/R affect your role with Ozzy?

He's always encouraged me to make my own album - sort of even nagged at me to do it. He said there's nothing in the world like it - you don't have to deal with all these egos. I say do what you feel like. It's the greatest feeling of all time ! Now that I've done it, it's all I want to do. After I' m finished with the Ozzy tour that's what I'm going to do.

Do you have plans to take G//Z/R on the road ?

Well, we're doing the first show tomorrow (at the Limelight in NYC, 10/15/95) and we'll see how it goes ! (Laughs) . If it goes well then we'll plan the future!

Do you plan to release more albums with G//Z/R, or is Plastic Planet a one-off project?

It's what I'm gonna do until I get fed up with it! (Laughs)

Obviously, you've had a very illustrious career. At this point in your life, what else do you want to accomplish musically?