Forbidden fan club

[Gregory House]

Im in charge , this cd gets no love here how about , some positive posts ok !

[H&H]

It's no longer Black Sabbath's last CD!

[DiosSword]

It's kind of Black Sabbath's red-haired stepchild.

However, I bought it the week it came out in 1995, and I still have it and play it.

The production lets things down (especially Cozy's drum sound) but the playing is good, and I think "I Won't Cry For You" is among their standout tracks.

I still think that the title track almost rips off Whitesnake's "Slow 'An Easy" - same bassist and drummer, so no surprise...

[Metal Priest]

Forbidden is underrated for sure, but I have always liked it. Not the first Sabbath album I put on, but when I play it, I enjoy it. So therefore I consider myself a member of the Forbidden fan club.

[Gregory House]

It's no longer Black Sabbath's last CD!

very funny !

[Gregory House]

It's kind of Black Sabbath's red-haired stepchild.

However, I bought it the week it came out in 1995, and I still have it and play it.

The production lets things down (especially Cozy's drum sound) but the playing is good, and I think "I Won't Cry For You" is among their standout tracks.

I still think that the title track almost rips off Whitesnake's "Slow 'An Easy" - same bassist and drummer, so no surprise...

yes the title track does have a Whitesnake touch to it !

[Arjen]

Make me a member of the fanclub I love this album.

The tour of this album is the best tour they did in many years. Check out the Malta95 show on DVD!

[Gregory House]

Make me a member of the fanclub I love this album.

The tour of this album is the best tour they did in many years. Check out the Malta95 show on DVD!

Your 2nd in command ! love your taste and i cant wait for that package to get to me dude !

[Ashley Dalby]

It's kind of Black Sabbath's red-haired stepchild....

What is wrong with red hair?

I've always wanted to like Forbidden a lot more, but there's nothing on it that Sabbath had ever NOT done before, with the exception of the rap section on the lead off track. There is a couple of very good songs on it, with the best being held off usual releases. Other than IT, Rusty Angels is the best song on the album, hands down.

[Metal Priest]

What is wrong with red hair?

I've always wanted to like Forbidden a lot more, but there's nothing on it that Sabbath had ever NOT done before, with the exception of the rap section on the lead off track. There is a couple of very good songs on it, with the best being held off usual releases. Other than IT, Rusty Angels is the best song on the album, hands down.

I can't speak for DiosSword, but I can say myself that there is nothing wrong with red hair

[MichaelWayne]

Your 2nd in command ! love your taste and i cant wait for that package to get to me dude !

when it comes to the love for this album, I must confess.. In the words of Tony Martin, I'm "Guilty as Hell".

[EDTRADER]

It is the most down to earth and raw sounding album of all the martin era albums. I always perfered a album which sounds like the band is playing in front of me. And forbidden is that album. It's alot like the first three sabbath albums with ozzy.

[Gregory House]

What is wrong with red hair?

I've always wanted to like Forbidden a lot more, but there's nothing on it that Sabbath had ever NOT done before, with the exception of the rap section on the lead off track. There is a couple of very good songs on it, with the best being held off usual releases. Other than IT, Rusty Angels is the best song on the album, hands down.

My dear lady if you have red hair theres NOTHING wrong with it at all , in fact i salute you ! 80% of woman i dated had red hair , more power to you ! Back on subject i glad that theres a few of us that indeed enjoy this cd and are proud to speak up , please keep it coming !

[Arjen]

Your 2nd in command ! love your taste and i cant wait for that package to get to me dude !

Excellent!

... your package should be there any day now. Enjoy the music. It blew my mind!

[Gregory House]

Excellent!

... your package should be there any day now. Enjoy the music. It blew my mind!

cant wait did u get my email track down Dead Again 2cdr set from Metal Sword Label ?

[Arjen]

cant wait did u get my email track down Dead Again 2cdr set from Metal Sword Label ?

I informed about the title, but no news yet.

[Gregory House]

I informed about the title, but no news yet.

ok still waiting cant wait to hear it

[Forbidden cross]

I think forbidden is a great album. The good tracks are all awesome. BUT some songs i can barely stand. Like shaking of the chains, rusty angels and can't get close enough.
If all the tracks were as good as the title track or I won't cry for you.
I would still buy the cd if it wasn't totaly out of print. Too bad I.R.S owns that album and most of the Tony Martin era albums.

Anyway i've done a review of the album not too long ago. It's on my youtube profile JanoSeishu420

[Gregory House]

I think forbidden is a great album. The good tracks are all awesome. BUT some songs i can barely stand. Like shaking of the chains, rusty angels and can't get close enough.
If all the tracks were as good as the title track or I won't cry for you.
I would still buy the cd if it wasn't totaly out of print. Too bad I.R.S owns that album and most of the Tony Martin era albums.

Anyway i've done a review of the album not too long ago. It's on my youtube profile JanoSeishu420

Welcome aboard the more the merry !

[Franklin]

The Forbidden fan club would be a nice place to visit if you don't like crowds.

(Look, I know that is a very out of character, mean comment. Apologies in advance.)

[Gregory House]

The Forbidden fan club would be a nice place to visit if you don't like crowds.

(Look, I know that is a very out of character, mean comment. Apologies in advance.)

No harm , no foul ! Its like a intimate orgy !

[Gregory House]

Excellent!

... your package should be there any day now. Enjoy the music. It blew my mind!

Got it today bro looks AWESOME cant wait to play it !

[Gregory House]

The remastered demos sound awesome !

[MichaelWayne]

eh? Remastered demos? There's another version than the one already floating around?

[MobRules]

I also have love for this album, as it is the second Black Sabbath album I bought. (The first being Headless Cross)

[Gregory House]

I also have love for this album, as it is the second Black Sabbath album I bought. (The first being Headless Cross)

Welcome aboard !

[Gregory House]

I also have love for this album, as it is the second Black Sabbath album I bought. (The first being Headless Cross)

I have neglected this thread to long jammed this cd all weekend long ! ROCKS PEOPLE take the shit out of your ears !

[racer]

I like the Forbidden album - it's a solid Sabbath record with the usual great Iommi riffage.

A lot of people are down on the album (and that era of the band in particular). Forbidden did open on the charts at position 199 US.

I suspect, however,two things: First off, every band has its ups and downs. The usual time any artist stays "on top" is three years. Few bands have the staying power of the Styones, Metallica, Led Zep, etc. ... they are the exceptions. A lot of bands that had a lot more initial success than Black Sabbath ever had dropped out site within five years. In the '70s I saw Foghat in a huge auditorium - in the '90s I saw them in a 500-seat club. It happens to most artists.

The second thing is that it was pre-Internet and I don't think that album had much publicity at all. Certainly no radio promotion. The only reason I knew it was coming out was because for more than a decade I'd make my weekly trip to the record store asking to see their "soon to be released" list.

Forbidden is a good, solid, underrated album. Can I join your club?

[Gregory House]

I like the Forbidden album - it's a solid Sabbath record with the usual great Iommi riffage.

A lot of people are down on the album (and that era of the band in particular). Forbidden did open on the charts at position 199 US.

I suspect, however,two things: First off, every band has its ups and downs. The usual time any artist stays "on top" is three years. Few bands have the staying power of the Styones, Metallica, Led Zep, etc. ... they are the exceptions. A lot of bands that had a lot more initial success than Black Sabbath ever had dropped out site within five years. In the '70s I saw Foghat in a huge auditorium - in the '90s I saw them in a 500-seat club. It happens to most artists.

The second thing is that it was pre-Internet and I don't think that album had much publicity at all. Certainly no radio promotion. The only reason I knew it was coming out was because for more than a decade I'd make my weekly trip to the record store asking to see their "soon to be released" list.

Forbidden is a good, solid, underrated album. Can I join your club?

Weclome aboard !

[sandman616]

I am totally convinced that the album cover and packaging of this cd is what tainted 98% of everyone's perception of it. Who in the hell is responsible for the horrible cover for this album? They owe everyone involved in the music on FORBIDDEN an apology if you were to ask me. Worst album cover in history! Imagine how differently this disc were perceived with a real cover and packaging. And all those people who criticize the production quality are diluted as well. People hear someone who they assume is knowledgeable say how "bad" the production is and thousands of puppets jump on the bandwagon!! WTF? I love the sonic sound quality of FORBIDDEN !! What the fuck is supposedly so bad about the way it was produced? Forget the the persons name, let go of your small-minded prejudice and explain to me what the hell is so bad about the way it was produced. There's only one track on this album that I don't care for.

[Gardener]

People hear someone who they assume is knowledgeable say how "bad" the production is and thousands of puppets jump on the bandwagon!! WTF? I love the sonic sound quality of FORBIDDEN !! What the fuck is supposedly so bad about the way it was produced? Forget the the persons name, let go of your small-minded prejudice and explain to me what the hell is so bad about the way it was produced. There's only one track on this album that I don't care for.

Well, in my case, the "knowledgable" people I heard say this album's production wasn't good were the band members themselves. To quote Neil Murray : "[Forbidden] was some kind of an experiment that just didn’t work. The idea might have worked with a different kind of producer but the combination of trying to record in a particular way and trying to have a particular kind of sound, that didn’t really work. You had a situation where Cozy would not be happy when we were writing the songs but Tony Martin worked very hard to take the typical kind of riffs and make them into songs but then we were kind of sabotaged by the quickness of the recording and then the sound produced by Ernie C was just very disappointing."

I really like most of the songs on this album, and I actually find it showed way more ambition and inspiration than "Cross Purposes". The songs are more diverse in style and the band was trying really new things, but it's true the sound quality is sabotaging the whole record. The guitar is muffled, the drum and bass are over compressed with all the high end cut, and the vocals are sounding so dry they feel unnatural, lacking even natural reverb, and they are mixed lower than the guitar most of the time, making some lyrics hard to hear ("Get a Grip" being the most obvious example).

You might like the way it sounds, it's a matter of taste, but in my opinion the version of the album we know is really disappointing compared to what it could have been. If you can, listen to some live bootlegs from the "Forbidden" tour and you'll hear how these songs could (and should !!!) have sounded. With a proper sound and production, these songs could have been absolute killers.

[sandman616]

@ Gardener

Thanks for the exact response I was hoping to get!! I would love to read more of those thoughts on the disc by Neil Murray! Where is that from and if you know where I can read thoughts on the disc from Martin, Iommi and Nicholls I'd be greatful!! Thanks. Nothing will change the fact that I love the discs sound but thank you detailing what you think are the shortcomings in the production!! All I ever have heard is "the production sucks!" from people with no details.

[racer]

and the vocals are sounding so dry they feel unnatural, lacking even natural reverb, and they are mixed lower than the guitar most of the time, making some lyrics hard to hear ("Get a Grip" being the most obvious example).

.

As far as the vocals being mixed lower ... that was always the case during the Ozzy era of the band. It's just that Ozzy's piercing tone broke through ... but he vocals were never mixed very loud, the showcase was always the guitar.

[Gregory House]

I am totally convinced that the album cover and packaging of this cd is what tainted 98% of everyone's perception of it. Who in the hell is responsible for the horrible cover for this album? They owe everyone involved in the music on FORBIDDEN an apology if you were to ask me. Worst album cover in history! Imagine how differently this disc were perceived with a real cover and packaging. And all those people who criticize the production quality are diluted as well. People hear someone who they assume is knowledgeable say how "bad" the production is and thousands of puppets jump on the bandwagon!! WTF? I love the sonic sound quality of FORBIDDEN !! What the fuck is supposedly so bad about the way it was produced? Forget the the persons name, let go of your small-minded prejudice and explain to me what the hell is so bad about the way it was produced. There's only one track on this album that I don't care for.

I have no problem with the sound it reminds me ala Born Again to it !

[Gardener]

@ Gardener

Thanks for the exact response I was hoping to get!! I would love to read more of those thoughts on the disc by Neil Murray! Where is that from and if you know where I can read thoughts on the disc from Martin, Iommi and Nicholls I'd be greatful!! Thanks. Nothing will change the fact that I love the discs sound but thank you detailing what you think are the shortcomings in the production!! All I ever have heard is "the production sucks!" from people with no details.

I don't have any precise quote from the other members of the band. I just remember reading it somewhere. Concerning Neil's thought, this comes from an interview I had the huge luck to do with Neil in 2007 for a book I wrote that is due to be released in one or two weeks. I think you can understand why I can't reproduce the whole interview here but (because I'm a nice guy) here's the passage of Neil talking about "Forbidden" :

You resumed touring with Brian May during 1993 and 1994 and around the end of 1994, you were back in BLACK SABBATH with Cozy Powell after the sudden departure of Geezer Butler and Bill Ward. How was it to be called back to the rescue by the same band that had fired you just four years earlier ?

In fact, we toured with Brian May in South America at the end of 1992 and about six months before that we had played at the “Guitar Legends” concert in Seville that Brian was overseeing. In 1993, throughout most of that year we supported GUNS AND ROSES and the end of the year it was the end of Brian May’s initial period of touring. I didn’t really do much in 1994 until the Autumn when Tony Iommi called up to ask me what I would think of coming back with BLACK SABBATH. He wasn’t sure at that time. Bobby Rondinelli had been in the band after Vinny Appice (who had replaced Cozy during the Ronnie Dio situation in 1991) and Tony Iommi had been very happy with Bobby Rondinelli but he kind of thought that if he got me back in it might be better to get Cozy back in as well. The whole situation was different though : Cozy wasn’t the co-leader with Tony Iommi anymore and the kind of songs he wanted the band to do seemed a little bit dated, with a kind of 80s sound to them. There were just various things that weren’t the same anymore. Cozy wasn’t very happy in the band and the situation with the recording of “Forbidden” really didn’t help either. He felt that was not what SABBATH should be about.

In spite of amazing tunes such as “Can't Get Close Enough”, “Kiss Of Death”, “I Won’t Cry For You” or “Rusty Angels”, “Forbidden” seems to be the absolute least favourite album for most Sabbath fans. The sound quality and the production are often considered to be the weakest point of this album, along with the rapped couplet by Ice T. What are your personal thoughts about this album ? Do you have any particular memories concerning the writing and recording process ?

Some of us, and particularly the management, were keen for SABBATH to be more current and because SABBATH would have been named by all the Grunge bands as being a huge influence, suddenly SABBATH was fashionable again. But it was the 70s SABBATH, not the “Headless Cross” kind of SABBATH, people were listening to. And the thought was “OK, we can’t go back to the 70s so let’s do something really up to date, something with a different sound.” It was some kind of an experiment that just didn’t work. The idea might have worked with a different kind of producer but the combination of trying to record in a particular way and trying to have a particular kind of sound, that didn’t really work. And to some extent the songs weren’t really classics compared to songs from the 70s. You had a situation where Cozy would not be happy when we were writing the songs but Tony Martin worked very hard to take the typical kind of riffs and make them into songs but then we were kind of sabotaged by the quickness of the recording and then the sound produced by Ernie C was just very disappointing.

Who came up with the idea of inviting Ice T on “Forbidden” ? Was he the one who introduced the band to Ernie C or was it the other way round ?

I don’t know, you’d have to ask him ! It had to do with the management really wanting SABBATH to be more contemporary for the mid-90s, with sort of Rap / Metal kind of thing that was going on at the time. Ice T had met Tony Iommi. He was a fan of SABBATH obviously and the original idea was for him to produce or co-produce the album but he couldn’t do it or wouldn’t do it and he probably suggested Ernie C. I kind of wish we’d had a proper producer doing that album...

[Gregory House]

I don't have any precise quote from the other members of the band. I just remember reading it somewhere. Concerning Neil's thought, this comes from an interview I had the huge luck to do with Neil in 2007 for a book I wrote that is due to be released in one or two weeks. I think you can understand why I can't reproduce the whole interview here but (because I'm a nice guy) here's the passage of Neil talking about "Forbidden" :

You resumed touring with Brian May during 1993 and 1994 and around the end of 1994, you were back in BLACK SABBATH with Cozy Powell after the sudden departure of Geezer Butler and Bill Ward. How was it to be called back to the rescue by the same band that had fired you just four years earlier ?

In fact, we toured with Brian May in South America at the end of 1992 and about six months before that we had played at the “Guitar Legends” concert in Seville that Brian was overseeing. In 1993, throughout most of that year we supported GUNS AND ROSES and the end of the year it was the end of Brian May’s initial period of touring. I didn’t really do much in 1994 until the Autumn when Tony Iommi called up to ask me what I would think of coming back with BLACK SABBATH. He wasn’t sure at that time. Bobby Rondinelli had been in the band after Vinny Appice (who had replaced Cozy during the Ronnie Dio situation in 1991) and Tony Iommi had been very happy with Bobby Rondinelli but he kind of thought that if he got me back in it might be better to get Cozy back in as well. The whole situation was different though : Cozy wasn’t the co-leader with Tony Iommi anymore and the kind of songs he wanted the band to do seemed a little bit dated, with a kind of 80s sound to them. There were just various things that weren’t the same anymore. Cozy wasn’t very happy in the band and the situation with the recording of “Forbidden” really didn’t help either. He felt that was not what SABBATH should be about.

In spite of amazing tunes such as “Can't Get Close Enough”, “Kiss Of Death”, “I Won’t Cry For You” or “Rusty Angels”, “Forbidden” seems to be the absolute least favourite album for most Sabbath fans. The sound quality and the production are often considered to be the weakest point of this album, along with the rapped couplet by Ice T. What are your personal thoughts about this album ? Do you have any particular memories concerning the writing and recording process ?

Some of us, and particularly the management, were keen for SABBATH to be more current and because SABBATH would have been named by all the Grunge bands as being a huge influence, suddenly SABBATH was fashionable again. But it was the 70s SABBATH, not the “Headless Cross” kind of SABBATH, people were listening to. And the thought was “OK, we can’t go back to the 70s so let’s do something really up to date, something with a different sound.” It was some kind of an experiment that just didn’t work. The idea might have worked with a different kind of producer but the combination of trying to record in a particular way and trying to have a particular kind of sound, that didn’t really work. And to some extent the songs weren’t really classics compared to songs from the 70s. You had a situation where Cozy would not be happy when we were writing the songs but Tony Martin worked very hard to take the typical kind of riffs and make them into songs but then we were kind of sabotaged by the quickness of the recording and then the sound produced by Ernie C was just very disappointing.

Who came up with the idea of inviting Ice T on “Forbidden” ? Was he the one who introduced the band to Ernie C or was it the other way round ?

I don’t know, you’d have to ask him ! It had to do with the management really wanting SABBATH to be more contemporary for the mid-90s, with sort of Rap / Metal kind of thing that was going on at the time. Ice T had met Tony Iommi. He was a fan of SABBATH obviously and the original idea was for him to produce or co-produce the album but he couldn’t do it or wouldn’t do it and he probably suggested Ernie C. I kind of wish we’d had a proper producer doing that album...

Cool article ~~!

[Nightskald]

That is a cool article. I've got a couple of things about Forbidden in Sabbath bio books - and the main reason Ernie C came in was that IRS didn't think Sabbath would be subjective enough with their own sound to make Forbidden "up to date" for the mid-90's. (WTF?!) Originally Powell and Iommi were going to produce themselves.

Ernie C was mentioned by someone at the label or Tony's management - and then Tony met him and asked him to work on a couple of songs. (this is paraphrased from Joel McIver's Sabbath Bloody Sabbath book).

(Originally it was only going to be The Illusion of Power - hence Ice-T's involvement - but for those of you who know his history, Ice-T is a Sabbath fan - and he used Black Sabbath (the song) as the background music for his rap song "Shut up, Be happy" back in the mid 80's.

The album was a lot rawer originally - and Cozy had been working on the demos - so his signature sound was hopefully on there (I lament to say, I've not heard the demos).

Cozy of course, has explained later that he was very unhappy with the drum sounds on Forbidden - and I can see why - you can tell it's Cozy playing, but it doesn't SOUND like him.

I think the record label once again didn't care about Sabbath and were just milking the cash cow again.

Forbidden feels more like a Sabs album than Cross Purposes in some respects as it's a lot darker (probably would have been better accepted if it had followed Dehumanizer instead of CP, as CP would have been more accepted if it had followed TYR IMO), and if it wasn't for Paul Sample's rubbish artwork (this is Cozy's influence - Cozy as we know, was into motorbikes and fast cars - and Paul used to draw cartoons in a bike mag that Cozy read - and Iommi and the band were fed up with being all doom and gloom - so they deliberately made the Grim Reaper funny, and Paul's artwork was liked by Tony, so onto the cover it went) it might also be liked a bit more. I certainly hate the artwork for Forbidden.

I don't know if it really was a "get out of contract album" but it was certainly rushed - maybe the deadline was earlier, but with the lineup change, the label released Cross Purposes Live as a stopgap and Forbidden came out later the same year.

Beneath the murk (which, surely should make it more Sabbath - Forbidden is less murky than Born Again isn't it?), there are some good songs here.

I like the Illusion of Power, Get A Grip (even though it sort of recycles Zero the Hero's riff), Can't Get Close Enough (which apparently upset the IRS executive who went to hear the album - he thought it sounded like Soundgarden! - Source for this - Steven Rosen's Black Sabbath), I Won't Cry For You, Rusty Angels (even though it lifts a riff from Ugly Kid Joe's song Neighbor for Iommi to play his solo over), Forbidden and the almighty, indisputable classic off the album, Kiss of Death.

A much neglected album - Tony Martin chose the rawer style of singing as he felt the layers he usually did on previous efforts with the band wouldn't work. The soulful vocals he had on Cross Purposes may have been a bit gruffer this time, but they were still there.

Most of my friends hate Forbidden - but I'm glad to say, that if it was the final studio album as Black Sabbath - they could have had it a lot worse.

The only gripes for me was Loser Gets It All wasn't a regular track on the album, it kicks ass too, and that Martin didn't get another chance to do an album with Tony and Co. after the reunion.

[cwilder86]

I'll join the Forbidden fan club. It grew on me after time. In the beginning I think part of the biggest reason I had trouble getting into it, is the bad rap it has. I would try to listen to it and kept wanting it to be something it wasn't, and letting how ever body said it sucked made me not really want to give it a chance, but I finally did. What gets me is how so many people call it the worst sabbath album but, I strongly give that to Technical Ecstasy. Some of my favorites from this album are

Get a Grip
Shaking off the Chains
I Won't Cry For You
Forbidden
Kiss of Death

[Gregory House]

I'll join the Forbidden fan club. It grew on me after time. In the beginning I think part of the biggest reason I had trouble getting into it, is the bad rap it has. I would try to listen to it and kept wanting it to be something it wasn't, and letting how ever body said it sucked made me not really want to give it a chance, but I finally did. What gets me is how so many people call it the worst sabbath album but, I strongly give that to Technical Ecstasy. Some of my favorites from this album are

Get a Grip
Shaking off the Chains
I Won't Cry For You
Forbidden
Kiss of Death

See we are the few, the proud ,the Forbidden !

[kentuckyfan]

Well I like this album for the art work. I saw it as something different and a good concept. The songs are good but not great. Forbiden is GREAT and is up there with most other great Sabbath songs. I do remember I-ced T and his metal band as the opening act for the tour. SO i gues si am a 1/2 fan of this album, but I will saw it is better that TE and Born Again.