Where's the Flute on Born Again?

[Axeman77]

I think he's actually a very good flute player, in the early days of sabbath he used to do a flute solo

[Wicked Cricket]

I heard the story of Tony playing the flute live, where he was stoned and blowing into the air and not the flute, funny story... his playing ablility, at least from what I've heard on Solitude and Looking For Today, is passable, any amateur starter on the flute could play what he's laid down on those tracks. Tony's a great guitarist, but I'm sure Tony would admit his ability on that instrument, the flute, is novice at best... I can't imagine him actually playing a solo in concert... His keyboard knowledge/ability is limited at best also... let's not get carried away with making Tony out to be anything more than a very very good guitarist who dabbles in keyboards and wind instruments for effect.

[gl797]

Arguing over where the flute is being played on what's hands down the crudest album Sabbath ever made, and for me, the worst... is almost laughable. Like I stated previously, it comes across as very pretenious to even mention an instrument as elegant as the flute on an album where unless you use your imagination, or someone in the know told you it was there, you wouldn't hear it! Tony's flute playing ability, most prevelent on Solitude is not going to pay the bills if you know what I mean... very very basic flute ability to say the least.

What are you talking about? nobody here is making him out to be a flute virtuoso.

I get it man, you don't like "Born Again", since you seem to mention it in almost every thread concerning it.

Born Again is a classic to many people, I'm one of them. I actually place it above anything after Heaven and Hell. yeah not every song is great but the same can be said for every album after H&H im,. even a few on H&H I can live without. BUT it has a few songs that I like better than anything Dio or any other singer except Ozzy ever did.

The flute used in The Dark is very unique, it actually makes that whole piece, nobody is claiming it to be difficult.

btw I've never played a flute in my life but I've heard from many people that it is the hardest of all wind instruments.

The flutes pretty f***ing cool in the song and it set ups "Zero the Hero" pefectly..it's genius man..I don't see it as "laughable"..but I guess that's just an opinion...MY opinion.

So let me get this straight. What are your feelings in general on the "Born Again" album?
j/k

Seriously though, if you can not tell that it is a flute through effects then I don't know what to tell ya...
I've owned plenty of bass synths, I still have a few and none of them sound anything like that.

but the flute is easy to distinguish in "The Dark"..just listen for the breaths...no imagination needed.

[Wicked Cricket]

Sorry 797... I've listened to The Dark, nothing there makes me believe a flute is involved... sound effects range from bass effects to keyboard effects... Joe was told it was the title track, Iommi has no recelection... not a concern though, I don't listen to this album anyway...

[Josef_K]

I heard the story of Tony playing the flute live, where he was stoned and blowing into the air and not the flute, funny story... his playing ablility, at least from what I've heard on Solitude and Looking For Today, is passable, any amateur starter on the flute could play what he's laid down on those tracks. Tony's a great guitarist, but I'm sure Tony would admit his ability on that instrument, the flute, is novice at best... I can't imagine him actually playing a solo in concert... His keyboard knowledge/ability is limited at best also... let's not get carried away with making Tony out to be anything more than a very very good guitarist who dabbles in keyboards and wind instruments for effect.

I do see what you mean. But then again, anyone could come up with the riff for "Black Sabbath". I mean, it's not hard is it? It's three damn notes... It's the same with Tony's keyboards and flute, what he plays is quite simple, but the sound and feeling is just plain awesome. Imo technical skill has little to do with how "good" I consider someone to be. But that's just me.

[Wicked Cricket]

I do see what you mean. But then again, anyone could come up with the riff for "Black Sabbath". I mean, it's not hard is it? It's three damn notes... It's the same with Tony's keyboards and flute, what he plays is quite simple, but the sound and feeling is just plain awesome. Imo technical skill has little to do with how "good" I consider someone to be. But that's just me.

I don't get awsome out of Tony's keyboards and flute playing, I do get it out of his guitar playing, and agree it's as difficult and equally impressive to create something "simple" as it is to play something very difficult. An Ingvie Malmsteen can play the most difficult guitar solos, but can't manage to write a decent song ot save his rather fat arse..
I think Tony does a nice job "using" the flute and occasional keyboards to add "color" to a song, but I wouldn't go any farther with it than that. I must say though, you "Born Again" fans are a loyal and stubborn bunch, much like the avitar of the devil baby, you sink your teeth & nails into these Born Again subjects and don't let go... I respect that, and as you know, I like to have a little fun poking at ya's..

[gl797]

I do see what you mean. But then again, anyone could come up with the riff for "Black Sabbath". I mean, it's not hard is it? It's three damn notes... It's the same with Tony's keyboards and flute, what he plays is quite simple, but the sound and feeling is just plain awesome. Imo technical skill has little to do with how "good" I consider someone to be. But that's just me.

What I find unique to Sabbath, especially the Ozzy era, is that 80% of any particular song is fairly straight forward and rather simple.

Its that other 20% that gets me pulling my hair out when I'm trying to jam along to their albums.
Actually I'm bald but i'm sure you get my point. hmmm...maybe this is why I'm bald...DAMN YOU TONY IOMMI!

[MH1986]

What I find unique to Sabbath, especially the Ozzy era, is that 80% of any particular song is fairly straight forward and rather simple.

Its that other 20% that gets me pulling my hair out when I'm trying to jam along to their albums.
Actually I'm bald but i'm sure you get my point. hmmm...maybe this is why I'm bald...DAMN YOU TONY IOMMI!

I would agree with that assessment right there. Sabbath songs are quite easy to play until you hit a certain riff and then its like someone just threw a monkey wrench in the works. It can get extremely frustrating.

[Josef_K]

I don't get awsome out of Tony's keyboards and flute playing, I do get it out of his guitar playing, and agree it's as difficult and equally impressive to create something "simple" as it is to play something very difficult. An Ingvie Malmsteen can play the most difficult guitar solos, but can't manage to write a decent song ot save his rather fat arse..
I think Tony does a nice job "using" the flute and occasional keyboards to add "color" to a song, but I wouldn't go any farther with it than that. I must say though, you "Born Again" fans are a loyal and stubborn bunch, much like the avitar of the devil baby, you sink your teeth & nails into these Born Again subjects and don't let go... I respect that, and as you know, I like to have a little fun poking at ya's..

hehe yeah I guess we can agree on Tony playing the guitar better than any other instrument at least ^^
As for being a "Born Again fan" I can only say that I love all sabbath albums, only the title track on Born Again stands out as one of the best songs I have ever heard, apart from that the album is mediocre compared to the other sabbath albums. Which means of course, it is one of the greatest albums ever created probably like nr 7-8 on my sabbath album favorite list. I can understand why some people, Ian Gillan for example, dislike the album though, it has a very special sound to it, I guess you agree with me on that point

[Wicked Cricket]

I would agree with that assessment right there. Sabbath songs are quite easy to play until you hit a certain riff and then its like someone just threw a monkey wrench in the works. It can get extremely frustrating.

Yea that's the definition of "popular" music.. even though Sabbath is not considerred a "pop" band, their music is easily recognizable, and easy to understand and "get into"... it's not a mental masterbation excersize like these techno freak musicians... Smoke On The Water, probably the easiest song to play, Blackmore didn't even use chords, just 2 strings (a lot of players butcher the song by playing bar chords vs plucking 2 strings), 4ths vs bar chords... but the genious is creating the simple song structure, that's a very unique talent that only the great ones have. I always said that had Iommi not gone super heavy and dark, he would have bene succesful playing in a pop band because he's such a great writer. It comes out in his somewhat pop sounding songs he does occasionally, to very good results. As well is the super heavy stuff that just strikes a chord in the listener... they can relate to it. The Beatles music was not complex, nor the Stones, The Who... and the list goes on and on.. That's the knock on Jazz or the "virtuoso" muscinans like Dream Theater or Malmsteen or fill in the blanks... that their music only appeals to fellow muscians, or those people that get it... understand it... you don't need to understand a song like Iron Man, it just hits you over the head and keeps on comming!