Born Again 2 CD Deluxe Edition Discussion

[ptr]

Live songs on a deluxe release is completely useless IMO

Its easy - some parts of BS history are going to be uncovered for public. It was great that they releases stuff with Ray Gillen because many of people probably didn´t even know that he was part of Black Sabbath history too... Now its fine to release a live stuff from Ian Gillan era because these concert are "legendary" today and because it was unique mixture. I think that it will be interesting to hear finally official release of IG doing a classic Sabbath stuff - probably because definitive version of Black Sabbath track will see the light officially...

It seems like that Ozzy´s camp is "fighting" with fact that beside Ozzy and Ronnie there are going to be discovered another singers.... But Ozzy is only a part of whole story - I hope that there will be released a live stuff with Tony Martin too!

[Ted Sallis]

Thanks for your April 12 update and for providing us with the official BA Press Release, Joe. Assuming they are being totally upfront and honest with us, I guess their reason for just doing a remaster is sufficient. The one thing that bugs me though is that I guess when they said they were doing "extra work" on BA that just meant they were searching for the original multi-track BA masters. Kind of misleading there, I think, but again I'll probably pick up the Deluxe Edition of BA anyway.

Ted

[Joe Siegler]

Its easy - some parts of BS history are going to be uncovered for public. It was great that they releases stuff with Ray Gillen because many of people probably didn´t even know that he was part of Black Sabbath history too..

They would if they were paying attention to my site.

Thanks for your April 12 update and for providing us with the official BA Press Release, Joe. Assuming they are being totally upfront and honest with us, I guess their reason for just doing a remaster is sufficient.

I've known about this for some time, and was asked to keep quiet about it. Partially because they expected to be able to recover the tapes, and didn't want me mouthing off that they were lost when they were still looking. It seemed fair to me. I have no reason to believe I was being lied to. I'll accept it.

The one thing that bugs me though is that I guess when they said they were doing "extra work" on BA that just meant they were searching for the original multi-track BA masters.

That's not technically a lie either. They never said what the "work" was. The work was the work in trying to locate the lost tapes. I'm guessing you feel "bugged" because you assumed the work meant something else other than what it really did, and the reality didn't match your expectation.

[E7474]

OK, E7474, I broke out the reissue CD's. Here's what it says in the liner notes. If you have these releases, you have this information, I didn't do anything special here. Just got out my CD's and looked. Except for Born Again which isn't out yet.

Original Warner CDs

I'm unclear when the warner series first came out, but I think it was in the mid 80's. As far as I know, they were never repressed from the Warner master source until Black Box in 2004. I don't have any of this series anymore, but I still do have the liner note booklet from Master of Reality that I got Iommi to sign. In there it says it was mastered by "WCI Record Group", so who specifically did it is probably unknown.
[/list]

Wow, thanks for the detail. Here's a bit more, then the $29 question in regards to BA.

Pearce/Wortham did all the digital remastering for the Universal/Sanctuary reissue, but as I've noted on the U/S vinyl re-issue for Vol. 4 and Sabotage, William Coehlo (under Pearce's supervision) is credited as the mastering engineer. Wortham is not credited on the vinyl. I'm guessing this is an apprentice type situation, where someone is learning to master and cut vinyl, since Coehlo is not on your digital mastering list.

I do have the original WB cds for MOR, H&H, as well as We Sold Our Souls.
(they were actually in a box intended to go down to the music shop for credit....glad I'm a lazy bastard in this case...)

No credits for We Sold Our Souls, but MOR and H&H both have "CDD Pre-Mastering by WCI Record Group" as you noted, I'm taking this to mean this was the outfit that did the analog tape to digital transfer.
Again, depending on the time frame, mid 80's is a good guess, we're probably talking about a 16 bit digital transfer from the master tapes, since 20 bit transfers didn't become prevalent until the early 90's, and probably how the Castles were transferred, so a bit more digital info taken for the Castles if they're working with the original tapes. They now have 24 bit (dvd) as well as 32 bit digital transfer machines/programs.

Anyhow, all interesting stuff, but the question remains on this BA release, the source of the new remastering done by Pearce.
The vinyl titles all have a copy of the tape box, (and I think the Pearce remastered cd's do as well) so its assumed (that word) is that Pearce had access to the master tapes for digital transfer, and no doubt that was at least 24 bit (more detail)

I'd be curious to see if Chud, or you Joe, can answer if copies of the tape boxes were in the booklets for the H&H/MR release. That would at least give me reason to believe Pearce has those master tapes to work with, instead of an old Castle digital transfer, which would be a pretty big deal in regards to the potential for better sound quality on the new release.

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

No worries here, I'm about as demanding a fan as anyone else, but if the cat gets out of the bag that someone is looking for something specific, then all of the sudden you get folks looking around in boxes for that stuff, and well, sometimes with human nature, it becomes "I have it, how much is it worth to you, what will be my cut?"
Happens more than you think, especially with live material.

The cynical side of me gets the feeling that they do know where these multi-tracks are at.
But business being what it is, they'll finish up the remastering, re-release contracts
with Universal/Sanctuary.
They angle for another licensing deal, then lo and behold, we've got the BA multi's, for a re-mix/re-release, and while we're at it, out comes more demos/alt takes/rough mixes of previous Sabbath era stuff, and maybe even on blu-ray to boot.
Its just the nature of the beast to leak this stuff out for the pure commercial part of it.
We had the early takes on the Ozzman Cometh. Then we get this Universal/Sanctuary remasters w/ demo/alt takes of the first 3 albums. And now we've got a new track "The Fallen" on this upcoming release, and its rumored that theres at least 4 other signifigantly worked on ideas.
But the only thing you'll get generally from the band is, yeah we worked on stuff, but it came to nothing....but we'll get to hear it, eventually....

Just like with the Hendrix catalog, and they're still squeezing the juice out of that one...

[ptr]

They would if they were paying attention to my site.

I mean it different... To know in the way to have a chance to hear stuff from that times.

[pete00000]

What bugs me is they are not releasing it in the US. What is the reasoning for this? I suppose that means when they get around to remastering the Tony Martin stuff it won"t be released here either?

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

What bugs me is they are not releasing it in the US. What is the reasoning for this? I suppose that means when they get around to remastering the Tony Martin stuff it won"t be released here either?

It's licencing. The rights in North America are different to the rest of the world. This isn't being produced by the guys who have the North American rights.

[Purple Grant]

These things are never as clear cut as fans make them out to be. The phrases "cash grab", or "not good enough" are frequently used. What most people fail to take into consideration is that these series are put together by the record labels. Sabbath have gotten hit a lot in the last 6 years or so with "stop re-releasing the stuff over and over". Well, it's the labels doing it.

Yeah, I'm sure if Sabbath were milking the cash cow they'd have found something to put on a second disk for "Vol 4" and "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" which are more headliners than Born Again to the casual fan. (it did surprise me they couldn't just slap some random live show on disc two like they did with the Dio discs.) If they say there's "No tapes" I'm inclined (but saddened) to believe.

[7th Star 86/]

Pre-ordered mine today!

[pete00000]

It's licencing. The rights in North America are different to the rest of the world. This isn't being produced by the guys who have the North American rights.

You would think they would cut some kind of deal to distribute it in North America. It is a major market.

[Joe Siegler]

It's licencing. The rights in North America are different to the rest of the world. This isn't being produced by the guys who have the North American rights.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

I've addressed this I don't know many millions of times on this site already. GAH!

You would think they would cut some kind of deal to distribute it in North America. It is a major market.

Think. Do you think the rights holders who have rights in the US would want someone else releasing material they have the rights to in their territory? Of course not.

I need to do a definitive post on this issue, and just link people to it all the time when it comes up. I'm sick and tired of re-explaining this issue all the time.

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

I've addressed this I don't know many millions of times on this site already. GAH!

I know that, I was just answering the guys question!

[Joe Siegler]

I know that, I was just answering the guys question!

I'm just annoyed at having to answer the same bloody question SO MANY F'IN TIMES. You have no idea. It's repeated frustration like that which led me to create this page.

[HuffStuff]

Preordered my copy from Amazon UK -- comes out to about $23 with shipping to the U.S., which I can live with. There's a good chance the price will go down before it ships, too, which Amazon automatically adusts to the benefit of buyers on preorders.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about whether something is released in the U.S. or not. That's what the Internet is for. Deals can be found if you look for them. It's not like anyone was going to be able to find this at Wal-Mart or Target anyway.

And while a remix would be interesting to hear -- the remix of Purple's "Come Taste the Band" sounds incredible in my car -- it's not essential. I've never had any problems with the mix on "Born Again," to me it just adds to the evil vibe. I'm more excited about the bonus stuff getting officially released. Hopefully the live recordings are up to snuff.

[Hell_Awaits]

I've never had any problems with the mix on "Born Again," to me it just adds to the evil vibe.

True that. Can I use your quote as my signature?

[HuffStuff]

True that. Can I use your quote as my signature?

Absolutely! Viva la evilness!

[E7474]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

I've addressed this I don't know many millions of times on this site already. GAH!


Think. Do you think the rights holders who have rights in the US would want someone else releasing material they have the rights to in their territory? Of course not.

So does this mean BA remastered will NOT be released in New Jersey,
and I'll have to get it through the Internet?

Like another poster mentioned, you can get it from amazon.uk for $23 on the pre-order, and maybe wait a week or 2, for the delivery.

Or your local independent may get a copy in, and your probably looking at a $29 price as "imported".

I think something like this may appeal to Rhino, if Iommi/management decided to release in NA.

But honestly, how many copies of this on CD would you expect to move on this title in NA?

[HuffStuff]

So does this mean BA remastered will NOT be released in New Jersey,
and I'll have to get it through the Internet?

Like another poster mentioned, you can get it from amazon.uk for $23 on the pre-order, and maybe wait a week or 2, for the delivery.

Or your local independent may get a copy in, and your probably looking at a $29 price as "imported".

I think something like this may appeal to Rhino, if Iommi/management decided to release in NA.

But honestly, how many copies of this on CD would you expect to move on this title in NA?

Not many -- but it's weird that BA has NEVER (is that really true?) been released on CD in the States domestically. I'm pretty sure it's the only Sabbath studio album that holds that distinction. It's pretty easy to find the Castle/Sanctuary remasters on import, though.

[Ted Sallis]

Ted Sallis wrote: The one thing that bugs me though is that I guess when they said they were doing "extra work" on BA that just meant they were searching for the original multi-track BA masters.

Joe Siegler wrote: That's not technically a lie either. They never said what the "work" was. The work was the work in trying to locate the lost tapes. I'm guessing you feel "bugged" because you assumed the work meant something else other than what it really did, and the reality didn't match your expectation.

Well okay, but then they could have told us awhile back that they were trying to locate the lost tapes instead of giving us the (deliberately) vague "doing extra work" explanation.

Also, I understand you believe it was fair that you've known for some time their reason for doing a remaster and was asked and you agreed to keep quiet about it. Considering the circumstances, I'm quite sure I'd have done the same thing (kept quiet about it).

Ted

[8bit Fighter]

I bought stuff through the Amazon UK before, but at this point I'm kind of on the fence on this one because I have the Born Again Demos of The Fallen and Stonehenge, probably going to wait this one out.

[Smthrz]

You can here the whole show on you tube.....

[Joe Siegler]

Well okay, but then they could have told us awhile back that they were trying to locate the lost tapes instead of giving us the (deliberately) vague "doing extra work" explanation.

Well, no, because if they found them, there would have been no point to say it in the first place.

[Purple Grant]

Well, no, because if they found them, there would have been no point to say it in the first place.

Yeah, but if they went public someone might have found them for them before they gave up.

[Nightwing]

Just wanted to get some opinions either way!

While it is awesome news of a new re-master and bonus second cd, do any of you think this will me MAJORLY different than the 1996 Castle remaster?

Now, that is not a knock. I think the 1996 Castle remaster is pretty much awesome - a MUCH MUCH BETTER IMPROVEMENT than what the 1983 version sounds like..

This is probably my favorite Sabbath album, era, and history period.

I just think that this will not be massively different than what the 1996 remaster sounds like. Maybe a few tweak improvements here and there, but not anything HUGELY different. There is only so much mastering you can do without the original mixes, right?

Again not a knock at all, just fielding opinions.

As for the bonus disc - it is pretty cool. Will the live songs sound better than the bootleg versions? We shall see. I personally think the Worcester show should have been on there before the Reading show (sound is MUCH BETTER - who agrees?) and as for the bonus tracks - the 5 minute version of Stonehenge is cool, and the Fallen should have been attached to the actual Born Again album.

yes we can 'burn it' or 'copy it' that way, but it does kinda lose its magic...

Any opinions on this? hehe

[Never Satisfied]

Just wanted to get some opinions either way!

While it is awesome news of a new re-master and bonus second cd, do any of you think this will me MAJORLY different than the 1996 Castle remaster?

Now, that is not a knock. I think the 1996 Castle remaster is pretty much awesome - a MUCH MUCH BETTER IMPROVEMENT than what the 1983 version sounds like..

This is probably my favorite Sabbath album, era, and history period.

I just think that this will not be massively different than what the 1996 remaster sounds like. Maybe a few tweak improvements here and there, but not anything HUGELY different. There is only so much mastering you can do without the original mixes, right?

Again not a knock at all, just fielding opinions.

As for the bonus disc - it is pretty cool. Will the live songs sound better than the bootleg versions? We shall see. I personally think the Worcester show should have been on there before the Reading show (sound is MUCH BETTER - who agrees?) and as for the bonus tracks - the 5 minute version of Stonehenge is cool, and the Fallen should have been attached to the actual Born Again album.

yes we can 'burn it' or 'copy it' that way, but it does kinda lose its magic...

Any opinions on this? hehe

I agree with everything you just said judging from the sound of the EI and SS deluxe editions . I also agree with the placement of the Fallen and using the ENTIRE Worcester show..

[Raziel666]

Perhaps there will be differences from the '96 Castle remaster. But it might be some difference that only some folks at stevehoffman.tv forums might notice...

What I most wanted - an official live recording of Disturbing the Priest - is not happening on this remaster, but I guess I'll buy it for the sake of having the complete discography mastered by Andy Pearce! :p

[Nightwing]

Raziel,

I have many of the bootlegs of Disturbing the Priest, and of course they are shoddy bootlegs, and of course I wasnt ever there LIVE to see/hear how it sounded in the moment, but..

The bootleg versions, in my opinion, are very crappy. Sound aside, I am thinking it they were cleaned up to have perfect audio, it still wouldnt sound that good - just my opinion.

Sometimes Gillan did the intro laughs (Chicago show he did them for upwards of 2 minutes, but on that bootleg version, they are cut to about 12 seconds), other shows he doesnt do them. Just the way the sound of the song goes - no Nicholls creepy crawly keyboard effects, we also dont have the privaleage of the unofficial INTRO to the song (Stonehenge)..which helps build into the song and Gillan's opening evil laughs...

The drums also sound screwed up and Iommis riffing seems different than what we know from the stuidio song. AGAIN, I KNOW THEY ARE BOOTLEGS, and I WAS NEVER THERE IN THE MOMENT TO HEAR IT LIVE,

but I am just guessing a perfect live version of Disturbing the Priest just wouldnt "Seem" that great...

And yes, the Worcester show and audio is near perfect (especially Gillan's version of 'Black Sabbath'...)

[Ted Sallis]

Thanks for starting this thread, Nightwing. And now I'm fuming. Why? Because I agree with Nightwing, I don't see the newly remastered BA differing much from the '96 Castle remaster.

The bottom line is this: they need to keep searching for the original masters for BA so a remix can be done if they're found.

Ted

[hammer]

great news about time .... hmm will have about 5 copies of this now , but hey its Sabbath with Gillan

[E7474]

Joe, could you find out the source for this re-master, and when are you expecting a copy?
Thanks.

[Nightwing]

Ted, Im not saying there wont be any changes, I am sure there will be little tweaks here and there. But I think at the end of the day, it won't be anything drastically different than the 1996 castle remaster - which is a GREAT remaster. Don't get me wrong. Again, without the original tapes, there is only so much anybody can do..

I think it is being released more so for the bonus disc and the inclusion of 'The Fallen' and the 5 minute version of Stonehenge (which is very cool), and some live Gillan-Sabbath era tracks...

[Hell_Awaits]

Raziel,

I have many of the bootlegs of Disturbing the Priest, and of course they are shoddy bootlegs, and of course I wasnt ever there LIVE to see/hear how it sounded in the moment, but..

The Paris bootleg has a pretty good version of DTP.

[sandman616]

How fucking hard can it be to remaster an album? What the fuck!! Do you need a team of audio "surgeons"?
"Hey!! This was produced like shit!! Make it sound GOOD !!"


story over

[H&H]

How fucking hard can it be to remaster an album? What the fuck!! Do you need a team of audio "surgeons"?
"Hey!! This was produced like shit!! Make it sound GOOD !!"


story over

They have lost the master tapes. Without the Masters, the sound is already mixed on anything they have. With the masters, it is the "raw" sounds and they could do a "proper mix" and make the album sound different.

Being that the tapes are lost, it is basically like taking the disc you already have, and mixing it with an EQ on your stereo. You can enhance the sound, but not make it sound very different.

[Krish]

I'm not entirely sure they can't find the master tapes. I suspect 1 or 2 issues at hand or maybe a combination:
1. They are planning on milking Born Again as much as possible to the relatively small number of fans that love the album (I love the album as do probably all of us on this site but in the big picture it's not a lot of people) - so they will release the remastered version and then one day release a re-mixed version.
2. Probably costs time and significant money and effort to remix this album and it's probably just not in the budget at the time being.

[H&H]

I'm not entirely sure they can't find the master tapes. I suspect 1 or 2 issues at hand or maybe a combination:
1. They are planning on milking Born Again as much as possible to the relatively small number of fans that love the album (I love the album as do probably all of us on this site but in the big picture it's not a lot of people) - so they will release the remastered version and then one day release a re-mixed version.
2. Probably costs time and significant money and effort to remix this album and it's probably just not in the budget at the time being.

According to Joe, in this post: http://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/show...0&postcount=56

They are unable to find the Master Tapes.

[Ted Sallis]

I'm not entirely sure they can't find the master tapes. I suspect 1 or 2 issues at hand or maybe a combination:
1. They are planning on milking Born Again as much as possible to the relatively small number of fans that love the album (I love the album as do probably all of us on this site but in the big picture it's not a lot of people) - so they will release the remastered version and then one day release a re-mixed version.
2. Probably costs time and significant money and effort to remix this album and it's probably just not in the budget at the time being.

3. Tony has the master tapes and since Ian Gillan is the one who dislikes the album mix as released so much (and not Tony), Tony obviously isn't keen on BA being remixed and re-released, at least at this time.

Ted

[Joe Siegler]

How fucking hard can it be to remaster an album? What the fuck!! Do you need a team of audio "surgeons"?
"Hey!! This was produced like shit!! Make it sound GOOD !!"


story over

Not close. You obviously don't understand the difference between remix and remaster. If you did, you wouldn't make a statement like that.

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

I'm not entirely sure they can't find the master tapes. I suspect 1 or 2 issues at hand or maybe a combination:
1. They are planning on milking Born Again as much as possible to the relatively small number of fans that love the album (I love the album as do probably all of us on this site but in the big picture it's not a lot of people) - so they will release the remastered version and then one day release a re-mixed version.
2. Probably costs time and significant money and effort to remix this album and it's probably just not in the budget at the time being.

Money was not the problem. They told you the truth. If you choose not to believe it, but it doesn't make your conspiracy theory true. It's not.

I hate conspiracy theories. "Well, I don't like what they told me, so I'm gonna assume it's not true, and make a statement that has to be true, because it sounds more plausible to my slant on the matter".

Give me a break.

---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

3. Tony has the master tapes and since Ian Gillan is the one who dislikes the album mix as released so much (and not Tony), Tony obviously isn't keen on BA being remixed and re-released, at least at this time.

Ted

That too is incorrect. Tony was the one who was going to be doing the work. You can't properly remix an album without the multi-track originals. Come on people. Just because this happened is no reason to be calling them liars. Knock it off.

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

Joe, could you find out the source for this re-master, and when are you expecting a copy?
Thanks.

Here's what I got from Andy when I asked about that.

"Born Again" Original album was re-mastered from Quarter inch tape at 24 bit then Dithered down to 16 bit for 2011 issue by myself and Matt Wortham. The Tape was quite heavily compressed, obviously we can't undo that but we did listen to other issues of this title and felt ours was more faithfull to the vinyl issue than other over EQ'd CD issues. best Andy

Mine is enroute from England now. They're sending me one of their work copies. I'll also get final too, but that won't be till around the release date. They have sent me a 128k compressed version of the 2011 master for Trashed & Disturbing the Priest. Listening side by side to the Castle Remaster, it sounds somewhat better. But I must state that what they sent me was a 128k compressed MP3 file. I need to reserve proper judgement for the full uncompressed CD to arrive. Then I can crank it and get a feel for what this new one feels like.

[Masza]

They have lost the master tapes. Without the Masters, the sound is already mixed on anything they have. With the masters, it is the "raw" sounds and they could do a "proper mix" and make the album sound different.

Being that the tapes are lost, it is basically like taking the disc you already have, and mixing it with an EQ on your stereo. You can enhance the sound, but not make it sound very different.

Why can't this new remaster be different from 96 Castle remaster? If I have understood this correctly, they haven't found the multi-track master tapes. Correct if i'm wrong but why couldn't they still use (mixed, two channel) master tapes for remastering? Technology has improved at least a little from 96 and there is also different person doing the remastering work this time.

[Joe Siegler]

Why can't this new remaster be different from 96 Castle remaster? If I have understood this correctly, they haven't found the multi-track master tapes. Correct if i'm wrong but why couldn't they still use (mixed, two channel) master tapes for remastering? Technology has improved at least a little from 96 and there is also different person doing the remastering work this time.

Yes, this is true. But it won't make it sound like a remix. Remixes sound different. Remasters sound the same, just clearer in bits here and there. Folks need to understand it's going to sound mostly the same as it always has. Just with some more punch and clarity. It's NOT like we're getting a new album here, people.