Born Again 2 CD Deluxe Edition Discussion

[WhiteSabbath]

I am excited about this disc.

[Wicked Cricket]

Does the remaster sound anything like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMQam1xsHkc

Because hell, thats a demo and it has more of a punch then the album version!

Now that sounds great! I remember Gillan saying the demos sounded really good, that they didn't know what happed with the final release. Trashed is the one song for me that shows how good this lieup could have been. The song stands up to Paranoid, Never Say Die, Neon Knights and The Mob Rules as one of the fast paced Sabbath gems.

[Wall 666]

Looking forward towards getting this. Pity it's only a remaster but I actually like the production on the album (perfect for the material - I have heard the unmixed demos and they are cool but I would not say they were superior, different but equal quality-wise) so it's not a problem. The live material more than makes up for it.

I'm not generally a fan of Ian Gillan (more some of his interview comments and than anything) but he is on fire on this album. So too is Bill Ward, some my favourite performances from him are on this album - not to overlook Tony & Geezer who are superb from start to finish.

[gl797]

I've been listening to this album since the day it was released and I never once thought it needed a remix..just the opposite actually. I don't like when people f with stuff.
This album is a masterpiece, sure there's some filler songs but anytime you have Iommi, Butler and Ward playing together I don't care who is singing.
I've always wished that they put out an instrumental album. They're imo one of the only bands that could have pulled it off.

I think I just cracked my walls by playing "Zero the Hero" so loud, this could be mainly due to the original mix being put together by Geezer. If that is indeed true then I'm glad he did.

LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

Black Sabbath and Deep Purple are my two favorite bands and always have been.
This album has a unique place in history.
And could be the heaviest one since MOR.
and it's definitely the heaviest thing Gillan ever took part in.
This union was a dream come true for many back then...they didn't dissapoint me that's for sure.

Too bad drugs and alcohol f'd everything up.

[8bit Fighter]

Two thoughts came to mind after listening to this album again:

1. I'm definitely thinking of using the longer mix of Stonehenge for exchange of the shorter one. When I first heard BA it lulled me into false security and then WHAM! Disturbing The Priest.

2. I found this on Youtube. I know people probably heard this already, but those with Pace-Makers, Pregnant, or faint of heart, beware opening it, and no, it's not Rick Roll.

[Zee]

After reading's Joe's early review of this disc I'm disappointed. I await the "finding of the master tapes" so they can do a proper remix.

[MachX]

I don't quite understand the calls for a 'proper remix' myself. I agree with gl797 on this, it is what it is and should be left that way. Are we suddenly gonna remix 'Heartbreak Hotel' simply because it doesn't have 'enough bottom end'? Filter out the tape hiss in Hendrix early songs? Remove the squeaky kick drum pedal from Zeppelin's 'Since I Been Loving You'? Born Again is a time period piece, and if you play it on a full range system the bottom end in Ward's kick drum and Geezer's bass is ferocious. The massive amount of reverb just makes it sound like it was recorded in a dark dank cave, perfect for the evil sound Sabbath were looking for.

[Gardener]

Born Again is a time period piece, and if you play it on a full range system the bottom end in Ward's kick drum and Geezer's bass is ferocious. The massive amount of reverb just makes it sound like it was recorded in a dark dank cave, perfect for the evil sound Sabbath were looking for.

I agree. I personally always liked the sound of this album. I feel it fits the darkness of the songs.

[celt]

I agree. I personally always liked the sound of this album. I feel it fits the darkness of the songs.

From day one I loved this album and do not see the need for a remix or whatever. I realize that it is not to everyone's taste, but I love its dark, heavy, foreboding sound. I have just never understood all the criticism.

[Sabbathman]

From day one I loved this album and do not see the need for a remix or whatever. I realize that it is not to everyone's taste, but I love its dark, heavy, foreboding sound. I have just never understood all the criticism.

Me neither. I first heard this album over 10 years ago, the Castle '96 remaster. The album has a soundscape of its own, I can't see what should necessarily be done differently with the sound. Maybe some punch here and there, maybe some more roar to the guitars, maybe some...I don't know, I don't actually care. It's all good for me as it is.

What comes to the upcoming deluxe editions of the albums Headless Cross and Tyr, I don't hope for ANY adjustments to the soundscape, I like them very, VERY much as they are (never understood what's wrong with the sound of Headless Cross, I think it's perfect!). I just hope for a proper reissue with the original sound, original artwork (!!!), with all the bonus material. That's it.

[-E5150 StarWanderer-]

I'm bit of a sound freak, starting from the settings of my cd player to the settings of my amp. So naturaly the mix of an album means a great deal to me. That being said, I enjoy this certain rawness, even some imperfections, in a mix of a rock album and prefer it to a unnaturally clinical soundscape, which sadly is too common nowadays. Born Again is maybe bit too raw for my taste though and a completely new remix wouldn't be too out of place. BUT, the dirty sounding mix is part of the album and history. And in the end it isn't that bad, and when you get over it the quality of it the mix actually fits most of the songs (the title track being the one that it doesn't do justice to IMO).

Me neither. I first heard this album over 10 years ago, the Castle '96 remaster. The album has a soundscape of its own, I can't see what should necessarily be done differently with the sound. Maybe some punch here and there, maybe some more roar to the guitars, maybe some...I don't know, I don't actually care. It's all good for me as it is.

What comes to the upcoming deluxe editions of the albums Headless Cross and Tyr, I don't hope for ANY adjustments to the soundscape, I like them very, VERY much as they are (never understood what's wrong with the sound of Headless Cross, I think it's perfect!). I just hope for a proper reissue with the original sound, original artwork (!!!), with all the bonus material. That's it.

My only gripe with the soundscape of Headless Cross is the massive reverb in the drums and guitars. It gives the album an 80's hair metal feel which I strongly dislike.

[Jannick]

I could be wrong, but I think Supertzar was the intro tape for the Born Again tour.

Not in the beginning of the tour.
The long version of "Stonehenge" was the intro to the 24th August 1983 show in Copenhagen.

[MachX]

From day one I loved this album and do not see the need for a remix or whatever. I realize that it is not to everyone's taste, but I love its dark, heavy, foreboding sound. I have just never understood all the criticism.

Well the sound is truly evil, the criticism, at least for me, is the sub par songs themselves. Every time I listen to it, and admittedly I do more now than before, I just find that Gillan's cheeky lyrical style doesn't mesh at all with the music. The only possible exception being Disturbing the Priest. Zero the Hero could have been a great song, but the lyrics are ridiculous. Trashed is only mildly entertaining, and most times I can't even listen to the second half.

In conclusion it COULD have been great, but it lacks Geezer's lyrics, doesn't have the greatest songwriting, or Dio's electric lyrics/voice.

[Sabbathman]

My only gripe with the soundscape of Headless Cross is the massive reverb in the drums and guitars. It gives the album an 80's hair metal feel which I strongly dislike.

Of course, tastes differ.

I for one happen to like reverb & 80's hair metal feel but that's me and my hard rock dream. I like so many things in the world of classic rock & metal.

...or Dio's electric lyrics/voice.

WHAT A GREAT WAY of describing Dio. I've always considered Dio's voice to be a thunderball in his mouth that's unleashed when he sings, but your comment just nails it for me.

"Electric Voice"

What a great song title that could be/could have been...

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Back to the album "Born Again"...I got to say this new deluxe edition has drawn/renewed my interest to this album. While I'm searching for the Castle '96 remaster for a good price, I'm also considering to buy this new edition because I love deluxe editions with all the liner notes, the packaging, the bonus material...

[Backstreet Kid]

I can't see what should necessarily be done differently with the sound.

The problem is mostly the drums. They sound terrible. Bill Ward's performance is great but they sound like shit.
Martin Birch knew how to get a good drum sound. Compare Ward on H&H with BA. His cymbals sound like a digital drum machine on BA. H&H has a nice natural sound.

[sandman616]

The problem is mostly the drums. They sound terrible. Bill Ward's performance is great but they sound like shit.
Martin Birch knew how to get a good drum sound. Compare Ward on H&H with BA. His cymbals sound like a digital drum machine on BA. H&H has a nice natural sound.

You would have a hard time convincing me there's anything "great" about Ward's performance on the BORN AGAIN album... It's actually tragic seeing as he's hardly done jack-squat as a drummer (excuse me! percussionist! ) in the nearly 30 years since this train wreck was recorded.

[Sabbathman]

The problem is mostly the drums. They sound terrible. Bill Ward's performance is great but they sound like shit.
Martin Birch knew how to get a good drum sound. Compare Ward on H&H with BA. His cymbals sound like a digital drum machine on BA. H&H has a nice natural sound.

Yeah, you're right, the drums could be better in a way or two. But for me there's nothing that should be necessarily "fixed" on this album. It is what it is, a portrait of its time, I just like this album's sound the way it is. Born Again is not one of the most important albums for me personally, so maybe I don't care about the sound so much because of it. As I listen to the Castle '96 soundscape, it's OK for me. Musically the album is good, at times very good. Not super-excellent like Heaven And Hell or Mob Rules, but good.

[Backstreet Kid]

You would have a hard time convincing me there's anything "great" about Ward's performance on the BORN AGAIN album....

he's hardly done jack-squat as a drummer (excuse me! percussionist! ) in the nearly 30 years since this train wreck was recorded

How about "appropriate" instead of "great" for my description of Ward's performance?


It was a train wreck but it was a good one.

[NoWayOut]

Pre Ordered mine yesterday. Now im just missing the Seventh star deluxe. Its hard to find the rest of the remasters, I've had luck finding only one Sabotage

[Pink Led Rush]

Well my pre-order says it shipped, can't wait for it to come in.

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

Well my pre-order says it shipped, can't wait for it to come in.

Yup! Amazon UK dispatched mine today. What with the long weekend I should get it on Tuesday.

[cwilder86]

Yup! Amazon UK dispatched mine today. What with the long weekend I should get it on Tuesday.

In about a month I'll be ordering a batch of deluxe edition Sabbath albums from amazon.uk. Is the shipping terribly lengthy since it's coming from the UK? (I live in the USA) Or more expensive for that matter?

Never mind. I am a tool. I just now realized you live in the UK so you wouldn't be the person to ask that question too. Any body know the answer to this for me?

[Pink Led Rush]

Don't know, but you can order them from different sellers from Amazon US and it's cheaper, average around 17 bucks, most of the time cheaper

[NoWayOut]

I pre ordered mine, and they didnt even ship it,it sold out super quick. Thats AWESOME. Im proud of the album. BUT how many of those people ordered it thinking its the re-mix. ah wait for all that bad publicity to happen again. Its Born again! ahaha

[Totentanz]

Mine came today and I'm just giving it a first spin - not sure yet whether I like this master as much as the Ray Staff or even the Hans Brethouwer CD version... it sounds too bassy for me (currently listening on an unremarkable Sony system, but it's usually a pretty good indicator) ...can't compare it to my vinyl as I've got no turntable here. Admittedly the bass is clearer... but I'm not sure that makes it better

Maybe I need to give it a good thrashing to get the most out of it, and that'll happen in my car... however I suspect the bass-heavy mastering coupled with my in-car Bose system (which lacks mid-range for my taste) will add up to something I'm not as keen on as previous masters.

No worries though, as this version has the big advantage of the second disc (I've heard most of the second disc before, but it's good to have a physical copy)

Interested to read any of your views on this master...

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

Mine came today and I'm just giving it a first spin - not sure yet whether I like this master as much as the Ray Staff or even the Hans Brethouwer CD version... it sounds too bassy for me (currently listening on an unremarkable Sony system, but it's usually a pretty good indicator) ...can't compare it to my vinyl as I've got no turntable here. Admittedly the bass is clearer... but I'm not sure that makes it better

Maybe I need to give it a good thrashing to get the most out of it, and that'll happen in my car... however I suspect the bass-heavy mastering coupled with my in-car Bose system (which lacks mid-range for my taste) will add up to something I'm not as keen on as previous masters.

No worries though, as this version has the big advantage of the second disc (I've heard most of the second disc before, but it's good to have a physical copy)

Interested to read any of your views on this master...

I got mine on Tuesday, and although I've played it I didn't notice a huge difference to the version I already have (1980's original CD release .... maybe a bit more bassy as you say). I'll have to compare them side by side sometime. I quite enjoy the second disk; I really like The Fallen and the Reading show sounds better than I remembered.

[Pink Led Rush]

Anybody from the U.S. that preordered got theirs yet? I think mine said expected delivery June 21, but they said it already shipped. Will it really take about a whole month to get here from UK?

[tcantafio]

Mine arrived today from the UK. I chose expedited shipping so that is why I have it so soon. At any rate, let me first comment that the second disc is fantastic. It is a real shame though that the full show could not be released (wasn't recorded?). I say that because we could have gotten Born Again, Keep It Warm, Supernaut, Disturbing The Priest and others. I know Thin Lizzy's gig in full was recorded and released...but it was their "last" gig in the UK with Phil Lynott. Great disc neverthelsss.

The remastered B.A. album itself is unremarkable (as far as changes in sound are concerned) to my ears. The disc is actually remastered very low...almost the antithesis of most remastered CDs today. This allows you to be able to turn up the volume and let it blow. What you get is something that sounds a lot closer to the original LP than any previously released CD. So, why do I say unremarkable? Because basically it sounds like my vinyl copy without the crackles. Don't get me wrong, it's nice, I just don't think that you could do anything with the original mix BUT make it sound better by trying to get it to sound as close as possible to the original LP. So when cranked, the bass is fat and Iommi and Gillan are in your face which is great, but there is just no hope in fixing the uneveness of Bill's sound without a remix. Remastering it low also gives off the sense that the sound is cleaner, but only because you can crank it without clipping or diginoise. But, be that as it may, the set is worth it because I have a remaster that is true to the original LP and the bonus disc which is FAR superior to any previous bootleg of this show.

There was nothing new to me in the booklet, writing wise. Some cool shots I personally have never seen before and of course it is nice to see the Bev pictures and Bill pictures of the band next to each other in the same package. Nothing AT ALL about The Fallen, which is disappointing. I would have loved a Geezer or Tony quote about the song, why it was left off, etc. Lyrics to The Fallen would have been great too. Oh well, small potatoes.

Other minor quips, but worth mentioning: The Fallen should be on disc one with the full version of Stonehenge and they could have thrown the edits of Trashed and Zero The Hero on there too along with the videos of that time. Maybe they are saving that for the remix? ;-)

T.

[Totentanz]

Anybody from the U.S. that preordered got theirs yet? I think mine said expected delivery June 21, but they said it already shipped. Will it really take about a whole month to get here from UK?

Having done it the other way round with Amazon - U.S. to UK - a fair few times, I can say in my experience they mostly turn up well before the expected delivery date, sometimes a good couple of weeks earlier. Hope that's the case with yours!

[Totentanz]

Having now given this a serious blast in my car (with adjustment to account for the high bass), I can now appreciate how this master works well at the highest volumes - which lets face it is the way an album like this is best enjoyed.

As mentioned by tcantafio, the lower overall levels provide excellent dynamic range at higher volume output. Considering the limitations of the source, it's actually pretty good. I still prefer my other versions for use at home (where I mostly listen to music at low-mid volume), but for a real blast this new master is the best so far.

I too would've preferred The Fallen on disc1, but that's no biggie I guess.

[Pink Led Rush]

Having done it the other way round with Amazon - U.S. to UK - a fair few times, I can say in my experience they mostly turn up well before the expected delivery date, sometimes a good couple of weeks earlier. Hope that's the case with yours!

Ya I sure hope so too. A month is quite a long time for shipping.

[LouiST]

One of the great things is that many songs in the deluxe editions have longer fade out time. Mostlt extended for 13to 14 seconds. Zero The Hero is nearly a half minute longer. This makes the album more than a minute longer overall so many of Tony's exciting solos become even more enjoyable.

I just wonder whether the 4-min version of Stonehenge is the same as the unmixed demo bootleg as the deluxe one has the heart beating sound while the bootleg one doesn't. Is it remixed?

[Pink Led Rush]

Got it in today, giving it a run through now!! Will post thoughts when I get all the way through.

Edit: Original album sounds close, but there are some changes. As someone else said, run times seem to be a bit longer which is awesome. Geezer is a bit more prominent, Tony's solos aren't nearly as ear splitting, noticeably on Zero and DB. As all BA fans, I love the current mix, but would be great to hear a remix, would give another dimension to this album I believe. Maybe if they find the tapes and do it, we could also get a disc 2 with some of the demos esp. Zero the Hero and Keep it Warm, which are a little dif. and/or Born in Hell: Live in Worcester. Will edit again on thoughts on disc 2.

Edit 2: They did a great job on disc 2, the quality of these tracks are 120% better than the ones that have been floating around and that I currently have. The Reading show tapes from the BBC, must have been of a much better quality.

[Paulie 88]

One of the great things is that many songs in the deluxe editions have longer fade out time. ...extended for 13to 14 seconds. Zero The Hero is nearly a half minute longer.

Interesting indeed! Just goes to show that there IS a bit of toying between when the stereo master tape is produced to when the LP etc is actually cut. This happened about 20 years back with Angelwitch as well - They re-released the classic first LP, and Devil's Tower had several extra seconds in the fade-out that does not exist on the original LP - So it existed on the master tape, but didn't make it to the release itself. But it's not a remix at all, just remastered from the original tapes (they also tacked on songs from the "Suffer" 45 and renamed the album Dr Phibes, in case you're interested).

Remastering *can* give the illusion of there having been a remix (like Geez being a bit more prominent on the new BA deluxe) but it's all in the EQing. An actual re-mix requires multitrack masters, but I'm not holding my breath on that... As the new BA exemplifies. Needless to say, we'd all like to hear this album without Bill's drums being squashed like a pancake! Makes sense that the "rough mixes" weren't included as disk 2, as it'd knock the *proper album* out of the water.

At the end of the day, I bought it, I like it, bring on TM series!

All the best,
PAULIE

[Deuce Frehley]

I don't quite understand the calls for a 'proper remix' myself.

Probably prompted by Gillan's comments when the album was first released. He made it sound as if there was a big difference.

[Dragonblood]

Hi there,
first post in the forums for me... I received my copy a couple of days ago. It doesn't sound as bad as I remembered, actually. Don't know if it's the remaster or if my memory betrays me, as I only listened to this record years ago and I didn't have it on CD yet.

Anyway, I liked it. I'm not expecting to put in the stereo too often compared to the others, but still, it's nice and has a couple of very, very good songs (I like "Zero The Hero" and "Digital Bitch" especially). I don't think Gillan was a good fit, but Tony can do no wrong: his riffing was as good on this record as it was on all others.

The Live CD, if nothing else, is a pretty important hystorical document. Strangely enough, I found Gillan to be a lot better on Ozzy's material than he was on Born Again's (he nearly destroys "Hot Line" on this one, he wasn't at the top of his game there).

All in all, I'm satisfied of my purchase and I look forward to the Tony Martin albums.

[hammer]

got my copy on Wednesday , been spining since then , mainly Disc 2 , Live at Reding stuff is great .....

[Masza]

My Born Again DE copy came today. Listened it through couple of hours ago. The live wasn't so amazing but lot better than the Ray Gillen live in Seventh Star DE. I have to give it another run

But what I really liked was the remastered album. It's been a while since I listened the 96 Castle remaster but I like this new remaster a lot. It's just amazing how good job Andy Pearce does with these Sabbath remasters. The balance of the sound is great considering the mixing of this album. And this can be listened very loud thanks for the dynamics and the soft and smooth, analogical sound.

[The Fallen]

First post and glad to be here.

Quick question for anyone with the remaster - do you have a glitch in the live "Black Sabbath" at 6.04 minutes/seconds? Its like a muffled skip but I think it was probably in the master tape of the live show. Wondering if anyone else has heard this? If its a natural flaw no big deal but if not I need to return the disc.

[H&H]

I have ordered mine and am anxiously awaiting its delivery. I get why it is just a remaster, and am cool with it, as I am one of the fans who loves the production on this CD. Still would have been interesting to hear a new take on the production of the album.

Excited to get this in my hands. One of my top 5 favorite Black Sabbath albums!