Was Dehumanizer good for Sabbath?

**Josef_K** · 06-09-2011, 07:46 AM

I have been thinking about this lately. Was Dehumanizer a good decision for Black Sabbath as a band?

I think there are two ways to view this reunion. Either you think that it destroyed the spirit and hope of a stable Tyr line up that (maybe) could have written three more albums that could have been better than the three we got (if you ignore Cozy's injury of course).

Or you could think that the Dehumanizer line up was better than the Tyr line up, and so Dehumanizer is better than anything the Tyr line up could have written. Even though I personally agree with the first statement, I'm not so sure about the second. As we all know, writing good music is not just about having great musicians, it is about everyone contributing to a vision. I consider Dehumanizer to be a better album than "Tyr", "Cross Purposes", "Lock up the Wolves" and "Strange Highways". But I still wonder if a more stable Sabbath line up would have been better in the end.

Personally I feel that Tony Martin seemed... tired when he returned to sabbath 1994 for the Cross Purposes album. Don't get me wrong, in the studio he wrote great lyrics and melodies and did a great job singing them as well. But the live dvd that I have seen from 1994 makes me think that "wow, he lost something in those 2-3 years...". I can't put my finger on it, but it feels like Dehumanizer destroyed what could have been the greatest album/albums of the Tony Martin years. Maybe these albums could have been better than Dehumanizer, what do you think?

**sn0wb1ind0zzy** · 06-09-2011, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Josef_K

Personally I feel that Tony Martin seemed... tired when he returned to sabbath 1994 for the Cross Purposes album. Don't get me wrong, in the studio he wrote great lyrics and melodies and did a great job singing them as well. But the live dvd that I have seen from 1994 makes me think that "wow, he lost something in those 2-3 years...".

Tony Martin was sick for the majority of that tour.

**Ochlocracy** · 06-09-2011, 08:19 AM

Dehumanizer is better than anything Martin can ever do IMO.

**Ellbery** · 06-09-2011, 08:43 AM

I'm not a big fan of Dehumanizer, I think the Tyr lineup was destined for great things and was stopped because of $$$ (we know it was money cos they still didn't get on at that point!!)

**Axe fiend** · 06-09-2011, 08:45 AM

For me, when you compare TYR to Dehumanizer or Cross Purpose to Forbidden, it just goes to show how much Geezer contributes to the Sabbath sound. A Geezerless Sabbath just ain't as heavy. back to your question. I do think that Tony put the kybosh on a good thing that would have gone on to grab a foothold and rise to prominence (At least in Europe), and produce much more great music than it did, Having said that, I also think it was the right direction to go getting Dio back, even if Dehumanizer didn't get the attention it desrved back then, time has shown that Dehumanizer is a classic right up there with Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules. I was glad when they got back together, It was almost like Sabbath were instantly a big deal again, at least around here. Had they been able to communicate and get all the shit out of the way, who knows what they could have done!

**Pink Led Rush** · 06-09-2011, 09:17 AM

I love Dehumanizer, so yes I'm glad they did it. More of the question for me is, why didn't the Martin era continue after 1995 and Forbidden? We got absolutely nothing out of the Ozzy reunion except for the live album with 2 new tracks.

**sandman616** · 06-09-2011, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Pink Led Rush Dio

I love Dehumanizer, so yes I'm glad they did it. More of the question for me is, why didn't the Martin era continue after 1995 and Forbidden? We got absolutely nothing out of the Ozzy reunion except for the live album with 2 new tracks.

I believe the "Tony Martin Bridge" got burned for the last time after the '95 tour with Martin and The Original 4 Reunion. And maybe even Iommi thought "going back to Tony Martin" after the Reunion would have jaded mainsteam 'Sabbath for good and made "Black Sabbath" a farce. The mainstream 'Sabbath fans of the Ozzy/Dio era's are the one's BS needs to make real money.

**MH1986** · 06-09-2011, 11:20 AM

Had Dehumanizer turned out to not be one of the greatest Sabbath albums then it would have been a mistake. It did turn out to be a great album, one of the best. To me Tyr is so so, Dehumanizer is great, and Cross Purposes is damn good, but Dehumanizer it isn't.

**Ellbery** · 06-09-2011, 12:23 PM

Dehumanizer also undermined everything that TM recorded with Sabbath including the stuff after it. Dehumanizer was basically Sabbath stating that anyone was better for Sabbath than TM. Which in my opinion sucked and I think it destroyed Sabbaths reputation too!!

**Icy Sun** · 06-09-2011, 01:00 PM

Tyr and Cross Purposes are my favorites TM era albums, but Dehumanizer is much better. Ozzy and Dio are my favorite Sabbath singers, and I also rate Ian Gillan higher than Tony Martin. Dehumanizer had some real fantastic songs like After All (The Dead), TV Crimes (one of their best up tempo tunes), Letters From Earth, Too Late (one of my favorite power ballads of all time), and I. These songs are right up there in quality with the best of the Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules albums.

So, yes, I think getting the Mob Rules line-up back together for Dehumanizer was a great thing. It's just too bad they couldn't keep this line-up together. Sabbath made more albums with Tony Martin than with Dio, including The Devil You Know, and I think that's a damn shame.

**Paulie 88** · 06-09-2011, 01:26 PM

Dehumanizer is my top-fave Sabbath album ever, out of everything.

I think Tyr *could* have been great, but it sounds like they recorded it at the bottom of a well - But even if they hadn't, I still like Dehumanizer way better. In terms of writing, I simply prefer the heavy-handed stuff, so Dehumanizer crushes all others. Had they continued on w the Tyr lineup, I'm not certain I would have liked whatever subsequent album would have come along as much as Dehumanizer, as there seemed to be a bit more chasing-the-commercial-carrot with TM.

That's just me,
PAULIE

**Josef_K** · 06-09-2011, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Paulie 88

Dehumanizer is my top-fave Sabbath album ever, out of everything.

I think Tyr *could* have been great, but it sounds like they recorded it at the bottom of a well - But even if they hadn't, I still like Dehumanizer way better. In terms of writing, I simply prefer the heavy-handed stuff, so Dehumanizer crushes all others. Had they continued on w the Tyr lineup, I'm not certain I would have liked whatever subsequent album would have come along as much as Dehumanizer, as there seemed to be a bit more chasing-the-commercial-carrot with TM.

That's just me,
PAULIE

I just love the fact that some ppl use "commercial sabbath" as a term describing ozzy and dio sabbath, while you apparently claim TM era is commercial. I don't know which side I am on ^^

Anyway it is really nice to see so many opinions in this thread, it's been an interesting read. As for TM being sick during the majority of the Cross Purposes tour, I knew that for Cross Purposes live, but I can almost hear it definitely in my DVD as well. But still he sounds tired somehow in my ears, so sad since I think he is one of the greatest vocalists that has ever lived.

**Dragonblood** · 06-09-2011, 05:51 PM

The answer is: Hell Yeah.

Dehumanizer is my third favourite Sabbath album, right after Heaven And Hell/Mob Rules. It's heavy as fuck, intense, and it was really ahead of its time in a way.

I like the TM albums a lot, he was the first singer I saw live with Sabbath and he has a special place in my heart, but Dio he isn't. RJD was THE number 1 metal singer for me and together with Tony and Geezer (THE number 1 guitarist and bass player) they only did masterpieces.
To me, no song out of TM's lovely albums can ever compare to something like Computer God, After All or Master Of Insanity.

**Lord Necros** · 06-09-2011, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ellbery

Dehumanizer also undermined everything that TM recorded with Sabbath including the stuff after it. Dehumanizer was basically Sabbath stating that anyone was better for Sabbath than TM. Which in my opinion sucked and I think it destroyed Sabbaths reputation too!!

I find your statement ridiculous. Dio is not just anyone. \,,/

**Ellbery** · 06-09-2011, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Necros

I find your statement ridiculous. Dio is not just anyone. \,,/

I agree, but TM wasn't even 2nd choice!! That was my point.

**cwilder86** · 06-09-2011, 08:19 PM

No, I don't think it was a bad move because Dehumanizer is my favorite Sabbath record ever! If any thing I think the greatest disappointment was that the Dehumanizer line up didn't last. I would've loved for them to have gone on and created many more albums from that point together. Then the Ozzy reunion of unproductive and album-less years would've never taken place and we could've had just as many (if not more) Sabbath with Ronnie albums as there are Sabbath with Ozzy albums.

**Ochlocracy** · 06-10-2011, 05:24 AM

Dehumanizer is still ahead of it's time today, songs like Computer God are getting more and more relevant.

**crazy ivan** · 06-12-2011, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ochlocracy

Dehumanizer is better than anything Martin can ever do IMO.

dehumanizer is one of the worst sabbath albums

**sellingmysoul** · 06-12-2011, 10:43 AM

Love all Sabbath albums.

**cwilder86** · 06-12-2011, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by crazy ivan

dehumanizer is one of the worst sabbath albums

Wrong! Opposite actually. One of the best!

**EDTRADER** · 06-12-2011, 09:26 PM

Before commenting on this thread everyone should read this one first. Trust me!!
http://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35500

**Josef_K** · 06-13-2011, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by EDTRADER

Before commenting on this thread everyone should read this one first. Trust me!!
http://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35500

As the creator of this thread I felt challenged to see what this was

Very VERY interesting read I must say, I have read much of it before here and there but it was very nice that someone managed to put it all in one text, and there were lots of stuff I didn't know in there as well. Also I like that you kept it objective, it wasn't clear if you were pro-ozzy/dio/martin, nice work!

**EDTRADER** · 06-13-2011, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Josef_K

As the creator of this thread I felt challenged to see what this was

Very VERY interesting read I must say, I have read much of it before here and there but it was very nice that someone managed to put it all in one text, and there were lots of stuff I didn't know in there as well. Also I like that you kept it objective, it wasn't clear if you were pro-ozzy/dio/martin, nice work!

Thanks. All I had to go by is writing and video interviews from the guys invovlved. As well as their facebook postings

**scorpio 2000** · 06-13-2011, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by cwilder86

No, I don't think it was a bad move because Dehumanizer is my favorite Sabbath record ever! If any thing I think the greatest disappointment was that the Dehumanizer line up didn't last. I would've loved for them to have gone on and created many more albums from that point together. Then the Ozzy reunion of unproductive and album-less years would've never taken place and we could've had just as many (if not more) Sabbath with Ronnie albums as there are Sabbath with Ozzy albums.

I agree with you. I couldnt have said it better myself.

**IommiRules** · 06-14-2011, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by cwilder86

No, I don't think it was a bad move because Dehumanizer is my favorite Sabbath record ever! If any thing I think the greatest disappointment was that the Dehumanizer line up didn't last. I would've loved for them to have gone on and created many more albums from that point together. Then the Ozzy reunion of unproductive and album-less years would've never taken place and we could've had just as many (if not more) Sabbath with Ronnie albums as there are Sabbath with Ozzy albums.

A Genius! A real, honest to goodness Genius! Dehumaizer is incredible.

**gunman42782** · 06-14-2011, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ochlocracy

Dehumanizer is better than anything Martin can ever do IMO.

Amen brother!

**Wicked Cricket** · 06-15-2011, 05:47 PM

YES, no doubt, and to paraphrase RJD, a more "modern" sounding metal album from the band. It was more on par with the other Metallica, Megadeath and other recordings of the time, which makes it a rather unique sounding BS album, a little different than any of the others.

**RLP4ever** · 06-17-2011, 02:44 AM

While I never really liked Dehumanizer (and still don't), for a few different reasons, I still generally feel that the intent and decision, to have another go in the studios with Dio was, at that time, on balance, a positive move. If anything, Dio-Sabbath's very well-received prior two outings, Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules meant that chances were high that, despite the differences and tensions that led to that line-up's break-up so very soon, a new comeback album by Dio-Sabbath after a decade spent apart, would sound relevant and resurgent. Besides, I reckon that there were very many other Sabbath fans who felt, like I did, that short of recruiting a new top lead singer, the return of Dio would be much more welcome than a continuation of the dismal mediocrity that had come to define TM-era Sabbath. I'd also add that, in spite of my deep disappointment with Dehumanizer, I think it was still better than all the five albums with Tony Martin----as if that could be any consolation.

**mythology** · 06-17-2011, 04:40 AM

I don't own the LP (obviously), but I've just listened to a few tracks on youtube.

Awful! I'd have to say it was BAD for Sabbath. Just totally bland metal. Could be any band.

If you don't believe me listen to something off the 1st LP The Wizard or Evil Woman (great song despite what people think) and then listen to something off Dehumanizer. The 1st 2 could not have been made by any other band. The Dehumanizer songs are just dreadful.

**Gardener** · 06-17-2011, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by mythology

If you don't believe me listen to something off the 1st LP The Wizard or Evil Woman (great song despite what people think) and then listen to something off Dehumanizer. The 1st 2 could not have been made by any other band. The Dehumanizer songs are just dreadful.

I might seem to be nitpicking, but "Evil Woman" being a cover, it could have been done by another band (and it has been, actually)

**IommiRules** · 06-17-2011, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by mythology

I don't own the LP (obviously), but I've just listened to a few tracks on youtube.

Awful! I'd have to say it was BAD for Sabbath. Just totally bland metal. Could be any band.

If you don't believe me listen to something off the 1st LP The Wizard or Evil Woman (great song despite what people think) and then listen to something off Dehumanizer. The 1st 2 could not have been made by any other band. The Dehumanizer songs are just dreadful.

If you don't own the record, one might question how you can have an informed opinion. I would question that, unless you feel that it is inferior in light of the fact that Dio sings on it rather than Ozzy. In that case, you have a pre-convceived opinion based on your perception of what Sabbath was, rather than what it is.

Bland? Poison, Bon Jovi, Slaughter... THAT is bland. Could be any other band?

Sure, because there are all sorts of guys coming up with Iommi riffs! LOL Dehumanizer has more depth and soul to it than ANYTHING released in it's era. 20 years later, it is still fantastic. This album re-energized Sabbath (Cross Purposes came next and that just ROCKED) and it renergized Dio, as his next release was Strange Highways which I will take to my grave as Ronnie's strongest solo effort. Bar None!

While I LOVE The Wizard, it along with Evil Woman (a wretchedly horrible song and easily the worst song Tony ever performed on- but what the hell- it was his 1st time recording) could have been played by any bar band at the time, they are not terribly tough songs to perform. Remember, they recorded this album in less than 2 days so there wasn't time to be terribly creative. They basically recorded their setlist and went back on the road.

I will not try to pretend that Dehumanizer will be remembered as a classic album, it won't be which is a damn shame. Musically, song structure wise, almost every song off Dehumanizer is a "better" song than anything from the first album- (sighted above by Mythology.) Black Sabbath, The Wizard, The Warning will forever be "classics" because they came from nowhere and gave us all something to be drawn toward. But Dehumanizer was recorded by a Butler/Iommi team that were far better musicians than they were as kids. Each album desrves to be seen in it's own light, validated or rejected on it's own merits- they shouldn't be compared to anything else, let alone to that of a different (inferior) vocalist.

**MH1986** · 06-17-2011, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by mythology

I don't own the LP (obviously), but I've just listened to a few tracks on youtube.

Awful! I'd have to say it was BAD for Sabbath. Just totally bland metal. Could be any band.

If you don't believe me listen to something off the 1st LP The Wizard or Evil Woman (great song despite what people think) and then listen to something off Dehumanizer. The 1st 2 could not have been made by any other band. The Dehumanizer songs are just dreadful.

Listening to Two tracks does not really give you much of anything to judge the album on. For all you know you found two tracks which you just didn't get for whatever reason. If someone stumbled across Evil Woman for instance and had never heard Sabbath before they would have a completely different and pretty damned inaccurate opinion of the band (even though you love it).

Dehumanizer is one of the finest albums to ever bare the name Black Sabbath.

Give Dehumanizer a complete and fair chance and then you'll have a more accurate opinion in which the judge the album. If then you don't like it, so be it, thats your opinion and at least you did yourself a favor and educated yourself enough to give an honest one.

**joebrice1992** · 06-17-2011, 04:42 PM

Totally Agree that Dehumanizer is one of sabbaths best, the lyrics can be applied to today so realistically. The whole band was in synchronization like no other.

**cwilder86** · 06-18-2011, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by mythology

I don't own the LP (obviously), but I've just listened to a few tracks on youtube.

Awful! I'd have to say it was BAD for Sabbath. Just totally bland metal. Could be any band.

If you don't believe me listen to something off the 1st LP The Wizard or Evil Woman (great song despite what people think) and then listen to something off Dehumanizer. The 1st 2 could not have been made by any other band. The Dehumanizer songs are just dreadful.

Just try to picture Ozzy singing the songs and then it will seem like Sabbath to you, right?

**Charger** · 06-18-2011, 09:50 AM

Dehumanizer is without a doubt one of my favourite Sabbath albums, if not even my favourite...Hell it was my introduction to everything Sabbath!!! So it will always have a very special place in my heart and it is also a damn fine album...very doomy, very dark and very current....still is actually...lot of the same themes apply.

I also like Tyr, but Dehumanizer is in a very different legue alltogether...and one have to remember without Dehumanizer there wouldn't be any Cross Purposes either, and that too is one of my favourite Sabbath albums....

Sabbath was losing a lot of popularity in the US with the previous albums, and Dehumanizer brought them back to a full US tour as well as a really extensive European tour...I do think that every way it was a good thing for Sabbath....it was just so sad that it didn't last longer...but then again we wouldn't have Strange Highways or Cross Purposes...well things happened the way they happened and there is really no reason to "what if? what if"...

**Josef_K** · 06-18-2011, 02:30 PM

I'm really confused that there seem to be people who like Dehumanizer better than the TM albums, then there's the ppl who don't care and only like the ozzy albums but still comment here (surprise?), but I had thought when I started this thread that there would be at least someone saying that TYR was such a great album that they should have kept that path. I mean, it is a tremendous album. Sure Dehumanizer is good as well, mb I think dehumanizer is a bit better than TYR, but the fact that no one seems to disagree with me is rather confusing haha :D

If we rephrase the question, my answer would actually be different. Would you rather have Dio-sabbath doing one album, destroying the sabbath legacy (yes I know I draw conclusions from nothing here, it's all speculation folks), or would you like to have two parallell incredible bands, one TM-Sabbath and one Dio-led "solo career". I would choose the latter, cos Tony Martin hasn't been able to do anything better than what he did in Sabbath imo, Dio comes much closer to Dehumanizer with albums like "Lock Up the Wolves" or "Magica". So after all I guess I don't think it was worth it, really hard to tell though, but I seem to be the only one having trouble deciding haha.

**scorpio 2000** · 06-18-2011, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Josef_K

I'm really confused that there seem to be people who like Dehumanizer better than the TM albums, then there's the ppl who don't care and only like the ozzy albums but still comment here (surprise?), but I had thought when I started this thread that there would be at least someone saying that TYR was such a great album that they should have kept that path. I mean, it is a tremendous album. Sure Dehumanizer is good as well, mb I think dehumanizer is a bit better than TYR, but the fact that no one seems to disagree with me is rather confusing haha :D

If we rephrase the question, my answer would actually be different. Would you rather have Dio-sabbath doing one album, destroying the sabbath legacy (yes I know I draw conclusions from nothing here, it's all speculation folks), or would you like to have two parallell incredible bands, one TM-Sabbath and one Dio-led "solo career". I would choose the latter, cos Tony Martin hasn't been able to do anything better than what he did in Sabbath imo, Dio comes much closer to Dehumanizer with albums like "Lock Up the Wolves" or "Magica". So after all I guess I don't think it was worth it, really hard to tell though, but I seem to be the only one having trouble deciding haha.

I loved Tyr. Tyr was the second Sabbath album i bought. Parnoid was the first. Tyr was a fantastic album imo, but because it was released on that Irs label, a small company, fans didnt know it was released. People didnt like it because it was keyboard heavy too. Dehumanizer was the first Sabbath album in a while to try and get back to the sound of the first 3 albums and the first 2 Dio albums. It didnt sell too well ,but it was the start of their comeback. If they had stayed together, the next album would have been killer and would have sold better . Dehumanizer was good for Sabbath imo.

**Josef_K** · 06-18-2011, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by scorpio 2000

I loved Tyr. Tyr was the second Sabbath album i bought. Parnoid was the first. Tyr was a fantastic album imo, but because it was released on that Irs label, a small company, fans didnt know it was released. People didnt like it because it was keyboard heavy too. Dehumanizer was the first Sabbath album in a while to try and get back to the sound of the first 3 albums and the first 2 Dio albums. It didnt sell too well ,but it was the start of their comeback. If they had stayed together, the next album would have been killer and would have sold better . Dehumanizer was good for Sabbath imo.

Well I guess you are touching on what is the "issue" here. If people like keyboard heavy music, they tend not to listen much to sabbath. If they had done that, maybe albums like TYR would be more appreciated. As it is now, the vast majority of Sabbaths fans always talk about an album being good when they can find evidence of that it "goes back to those early albums when stuff wasn't too complicated, no keyboards, just the plain old guitar & bass heavy kind of sound". I don't wanna generalize here, and this might be just since I am a keyboard player but I really think that is a very dull way too look at things. I enjoy the whole progression of sabbaths music, not a single bad album, not a single bad song (not counting "Some Kind of Woman", I dislike that song a lot) if you ask me.

After all, I guess sabbath went through many different sounds. I just happen to love them all.

**sandman616** · 06-18-2011, 07:53 PM

There is a certain level of insanity comparing, "Black Sabbath" TYR with "Black Sabbath" DEHUMANIZER.. Nobody wants to acknowledge that you're dealing with 2 DIFFERENT BANDS on those 2 albums!! Both called, "Black Sabbath" and both featuring Tony Iommi on guitars but make no mistake, they're 2 completely DIFFERENT BANDS!! Their is no similarity whatsoever. As always, I am nobody and my opinion means less than nothing.

**Charger** · 06-19-2011, 06:36 AM

No. They were two DIFFERENT LINE-UPS of the SAME BAND...there is a huuuuge difference.

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