Was Dehumanizer good for Sabbath?

[cwilder86]

No. They were two DIFFERENT LINE-UPS of the SAME BAND...there is a huuuuge difference.

Just felt this needs to be emphasized.

[Josef_K]

No. They were two DIFFERENT LINE-UPS of the SAME BAND...there is a huuuuge difference.

I agree, there is one HUGE similarity between these two bands. They both played "War Pigs" live even though they really didn't want to.

[-E5150 StarWanderer-]

It most certainly was, it was a commercial resurgence and in my opinion one hell of a piece of music. The album is - in a good way - a very unique chapter in Sabbaths cataloque. Especially Geezers return made a huge impact to the album: it was a return to the "true" Sabbath sound in many ways. And like you said it also resulted into Geezer staying in the band for Cross Purposes too, the best of the Martin era, and also the most Sabbath sounding one.

And I do like Headless Cross for example, but it just lacks something when compared to the first six, the Dio era albums and Born Again too. Great music, especially if you take it out of the Sabbath context. But since it's under the Sabbath banner it will always be compared to classic albums like SBS and H&H. And it's one massive task for an album to compete with the likes of them. I don't personally think that it was a horrible decision to keep the Sabbath name after Born Again (excluding 7th Star), but I think it would probanly have been better to change the name. Sure the albums probably sold bit better back then with the established name, but I'd say that the albums would have been received better and have a better reputation now with another name on the covers. Then there wouldn't be the moral question about Iommi keeping the name alone and the albums wouldn't have been compared to Sabbaths classic material, atleast to the same extent. But if this scenario would have taken place, it would have been, of course, more than ok to do Cross Purposes under the Sabbath name, since Iommi and Geezer were there - and hence the soul of Sabbath as well.

[uncltravlinmatt]

"No. They were two DIFFERENT LINE-UPS of the SAME BAND...there is a huuuuge difference."

A huge difference that will remain unstated by the poster because he/she can't actually explain it.

[Sabhuman1978]

Dehumanizer is great album but came out in wrong time

[gl797]

I don't know if it was good for them but I know it was good for me.
In my opinion an album is worth it even if it has just one or two epic songs, meaning songs that are as good as the best the band has written previously (or at least very close to as good). This is how I feel about much of the Dio era stuff, although it doesn't impact me in the same way the Ozzy stuff does it is still better than everything else out there.

There are many Dio era songs that I can't live without, H&H, Children of the Sea, Die Young, Lonely is the Word, Over and Over and imo the best Dio era song "I".

Two songs from "Born Again" reach this "epic" status with me as well. "Disturbing the Priest" and "Zero the Hero".

While Ozzy's departure from Sabbath depressed me more than anything when it happened (thank god that was my biggest problem), it also gave the world a totally different kind of greatness (from both Ozzy and Sabbath) and it allowed Iommi to go in a different direction.

yeah to end this long-winded speech, Dehumanizer was worth it just for the song "I" alone.
I'm so glad that things worked out as they did or I would not have one of my most favorite songs. An epic song.

[sandman616]

Dehumanizer was worth it just for the song "I" alone.

Fuckin' Aye, that's the truest post I've ever read on these forums!!!!!

[777Jep]

Dehumanizer is one of my favorite albums of Black Sabbath, with Heaven & Hell and Sabotage.

(I think) you can't compare TYR and Dehumanizer, because it's not the same style. TYR is more epic. Dehumanizer is darker, epicless, but better IMO. Not the same lineup, not the same music.

I love TYR too, but when I listened to Dehumanizer for the first time, I was surprised at EACH song. A new surprise at every time, until Buried Alive. When I listened to TYR, I was very surprised by the first track, "Woah, really good !" I thought. But the following tracks are... not as good.

That's how I feel it.

[sandman616]

Am I the only one who was surprised that "Black Sabbath" didn't perform one, single song from TYR on the 1992 tour??

[cwilder86]

Am I the only one who was surprised that "Black Sabbath" didn't perform one, single song from TYR on the 1992 tour??

Can't really say because I too young in 1992 to have gone to see them in concert, and oblivious to the existence of Black Sabbath. But I will say I find it disappointing that Dio didn't want any thing to do with singing any of the material that took place in between his departure from the band and his return. A lot of good music was ignored from those periods. He didn't even really enjoy singing the Ozzy tunes either (so I've heard) but he couldn't really get out of doing Iron Man, War Pigs and Paranoid or the crowd probably would've rioted. It would've been really interesting to have heard Dio's take on songs like Headless Cross and Anno Mundi.

[Josef_K]

Can't really say because I too young in 1992 to have gone to see them in concert, and oblivious to the existence of Black Sabbath. But I will say I find it disappointing that Dio didn't want any thing to do with singing any of the material that took place in between his departure from the band and his return. A lot of good music was ignored from those periods. He didn't even really enjoy singing the Ozzy tunes either (so I've heard) but he couldn't really get out of doing Iron Man, War Pigs and Paranoid or the crowd probably would've rioted. It would've been really interesting to have heard Dio's take on songs like Headless Cross and Anno Mundi.

Yeah, I guess if he didn't have to perform all those long-time dead Ozzy-era classics (please let them die, they had their era, their rise and fall) Dio would have been more positive towards performing other material. However, do note that Geezer surely must have been of the same opinion that no material written without him was to be performed. And I don't think they even considered putting some material from Born Again on that setlist. So Tony didn't really have any choice I guess.

[sabbather]

While I favor the Ozzy years, I think Dehumanizer is one of the best, if not the best, from the Dio years. It's definitely better than any other post Ozzy line up releases.

[H&H]

I don't know if it was good for them but I know it was good for me.

I feel almost the same way. I do feel it was good for Sabbath, as it put them onto a bigger stage having Dio back in the band, but the CD did not sell gangbusters like H&H, so outside of concert revenues, not sure if the album was a financial success. It was however outstanding for me prersonally. I love all eras of BS, but DIo is my favorite, and in 92, it would be the first time I saw Black Sabbath on stage in Detroit (Clarkston), MI. I remember leaving the concert and thinking how awesome the show was, but that it could have been even better without them playing any of the Ozzy era material. I completely understand why they did, but when Heaven & Hell started touring in 07, I loved the decision to play only their material.

Am I the only one who was surprised that "Black Sabbath" didn't perform one, single song from TYR on the 1992 tour??

NOPE!

[Gardener]

Am I the only one who was surprised that "Black Sabbath" didn't perform one, single song from TYR on the 1992 tour??

Dio already had a hard time accepting to perform material written for the guy who was in the band before him, so did you really expect he would agree to perform material from someone who came in the band AFTER him ?!? Not a chance.

Plus, there was the problem of the length of the shows. For a "Black Sabbath" concert, the average audience wanted to hear "Black Sabbath" classics, which means the obligatory Ozzy era super hits (Iron man, Paranoid...) As Tony and Ronnie said in 2007, renaming the band Heaven and Hell was the only way to escape this state of fact.

AND, as these were Dio fronted Black Sabbath shows, they also had to include the Dio era classics from the early 80s. If you count that they also had to promote the new album, then it doesn't really leave any room for any other era, or else the shows would have lasted three hours !

[Wicked Cricket]

Dehumanizer was released on 22 June 1992. In the US, the album was released on 30 June 1992 by Reprise Records, as Ronnie James Dio and his namesake band were still under contract with the label at the time. While the album received mixed reviews, it was the band's biggest commercial success in a decade. Anchored by the top 40 rock radio single "TV Crimes", the album peaked at number 44 on the Billboard 200. The album also featured the song "Time Machine", a version of which had been recorded for the 1992 film Wayne's World. Additionally, the perception by many fans of a return of some semblance of the "real" Black Sabbath provided the band with some much needed momentum.

[DiosSword]

It was a masterpiece of an album that was a bad thing for the band overall.

When I first heard the news, having been a huge fan of both Dio and Tony Martin, I thought, "it's never going to last. After having his own band and own way for so long, no way is RJD going to take direction from anyone else, be it Tony Iommi or Ritchie Blackmore."

I was really pissed off that Tony Iommi had broken up a band that was really, really gelling together on the Tyr album to chase something that I think even he knew wouldn't last. After all, Geezer jamming onstage with RJD is a hell of a lot different than writing new material and touring. I thought Dio was on the uptick too with Lock Up The Wolves, because it had some really doomy-sounding stuff on it.

Then the Wayne's World connection with "Time Machine" came up, even though you only hear about .00000000000000001 second of the actual song in the movie!

When the album came out, of course it was brilliant. Those artists are just too good to make a shitty album together. And, I got to see them LIVE for the first time on that tour.

When it fell apart, I thought it ws just the inevitable and that very soon they'd be sucked back into Ozzy's orbit. When Tony Martin rejoined I was stunned...in his place I would have probably told Tony Iommi (as much as I admire him) to go take a flying fuck at a doughnut hole. But Cross Purposes was a good album (though I thought Strange Highways was better) and I got to see that tour, too. Tony Martin had a bad cold but the guy was a real trouper even though probably 3/4 of the audience didn't know who he was, and I think he won a lot of them over.

I was one of maybe .0001% of Sabbath fans who liked Forbidden and I had tickets for that tour too...which was cancelled. When that happened, I started smelling a repeat of the Seventh Star era.

Then of course the Ozzy reunion happened and Sabbath became pretty much a greatest-hits live jukebox grinding out the same ol' shit every night at OzzFest.

Of course they probably made a lot more money going back with Dio and then Ozzy, but to me something unique was lost.

[cwilder86]

Then of course the Ozzy reunion happened and Sabbath became pretty much a greatest-hits live jukebox grinding out the same ol' shit every night at OzzFest.

Of course they probably made a lot more money going back with Dio and then Ozzy, but to me something unique was lost.

I can't emphasize the last part of what you said enough... I know the mainstream and probably majority of Black Sabbath fans.... Or (Ozzy fans claiming to be Black Sabbath fans) ate the reunion up and will disagree, but you are right. In order for something unique to NOT have been lost they needed to play more varied set lists... Symptom Of The Universe, Hole In The Sky, Junior's Eyes, Never Say Die, and so many other great songs from this era were ignored... (Well okay they played a minute of Symptom? Big woop) And made a new album (and continued making new albums). I mean for fuck's sake in all the time that they were reunited they could have made two fucking albums. Oh wait... Ozzy made two albums. His solo albums. But he couldn't do it with Sabbath. Just so thankful the Heaven And Hell thing happened and we got "The Devil You Know"... And we we're even gonna get a follow up to that... If that bastard known as cancer hadn't intervened...

[Nightskald]

If you don't own the record, one might question how you can have an informed opinion. I would question that, unless you feel that it is inferior in light of the fact that Dio sings on it rather than Ozzy. In that case, you have a pre-convceived opinion based on your perception of what Sabbath was, rather than what it is.

Bland? Poison, Bon Jovi, Slaughter... THAT is bland. Could be any other band? Sure, because there are all sorts of guys coming up with Iommi riffs! LOL Dehumanizer has more depth and soul to it than ANYTHING released in it's era. 20 years later, it is still fantastic. This album re-energized Sabbath (Cross Purposes came next and that just ROCKED) and it renergized Dio, as his next release was Strange Highways which I will take to my grave as Ronnie's strongest solo effort. Bar None!

While I LOVE The Wizard, it along with Evil Woman (a wretchedly horrible song and easily the worst song Tony ever performed on- but what the hell- it was his 1st time recording) could have been played by any bar band at the time, they are not terribly tough songs to perform. Remember, they recorded this album in less than 2 days so there wasn't time to be terribly creative. They basically recorded their setlist and went back on the road.

I will not try to pretend that Dehumanizer will be remembered as a classic album, it won't be which is a damn shame. Musically, song structure wise, almost every song off Dehumanizer is a "better" song than anything from the first album- (sighted above by Mythology.) Black Sabbath, The Wizard, The Warning will forever be "classics" because they came from nowhere and gave us all something to be drawn toward. But Dehumanizer was recorded by a Butler/Iommi team that were far better musicians than they were as kids. Each album desrves to be seen in it's own light, validated or rejected on it's own merits- they shouldn't be compared to anything else, let alone to that of a different (inferior) vocalist.

I think Strange Highways is the logical successor to Dehumanizer - very overlooked album in the Dio canon but great none the less - a lot of the riffs on it sound like something Tony would have written - especially on the title track.

Cross Purposes was a solid album as well, but once again, only fans happy enough to see a new Sabbath album out would have purchased it - and it was lightweight following the monster Dehumanizer was. I think it may have done better if it had followed Tyr, as the band seemed on the way up in Europe at the time, but Martin just didn't get his dues, which is a shame, given how much he gave to Sabbath during his tenure.

[Monster Boy]

Was it good for Sabbath...well it led to them wanting to reunite with Ozzy so, yes

In all seriousneess, I put this album right up there with Forbidden as Black Sabbath's low point. To quell any objections, my opinion has little to do with the fact that Ozzy is not the singer (first sentence was kind of a joke). It's all about the songs for me. "I" is a decent song, and I enjoy some of the parts of others, but overall there are A. too many parts in each song and they don't seem to fit together (I have the same problem with the song "Shock Wave"), B. it seems like Iommi plays the same damn solo on every song (twiddly dee twiddly dee all over the place) and C. they try to be too tricky with quite a few of the riffs, sounds like they were trying unsuccesfully to write thrash metal or something. Hardly any of it seems natural. Oh and D. there are some seriously corny "choruses" on here (take Letters from Earth and Master of Insanity for example). Anyways, I realize this thread is not about whether or not we like the album per se, but I just felt it necessary to explain my viewpoint, no doubt an unpopular one in this thread, before addressing whether or not it was good for the band (or the band name?)

Well, it sold better than the TM stuff so financially it was good (although I hear Dehumanizer cost a million dollars to make). I don't believe they were going anywhere special with the album TYR (3rd or 4th worst Sabbath album to me), so no big loss there. On the other hand, Dehumanizer was even worse, so that couldn't be considered good. It did bring Geezer back into the fold, which paid dividends on Cross Purposes (which I actually think is not a horrible album!)..All things considered, 2 points to 1 says it was good for them.

[666]

I think Tyr was good, but for me this was Black Sabbath album, that not was Black Sabbath 100%, this is not Never Say Die, but this is another part of Heaven and Hell->Eternal Idol story with interesting viking theme, but only one really Sabbath song "The Sabbath Stones" - good song, but far from After All for example. I love album as some kind of painting, but if i look in details, i'm not so happy (same things i can say about Technical Ecstasy wich i love album, but not happy with all songs). I think this is not Sabbath level album, but very near.

Dehumanizer IMO the best album from all sides except stoner rock, but we didn't heard any stoner songs from 1975 year in my opnion and this part of Sabbath is complitely lost until Forbidden album (one of my favorites at this point). I love this album - i love riffs, i love melodies, and of cause i love lyrics - any song from this album is masterpiece (4 me). I can't compare Dehumanizer with Tyr - it's like shame that we have this topic and some fans is so far far from Black Sabbath music.

Sorry this is kind of emotions, but i can't speak about Dehumanizer, when someone trying to compare it with album like Tyr and say something about money... Dehumanizer and money, money and Dehumanizer... *facepalm*

[Ray Rules]

Dehumanizer is a good album, but I think it ruined it for Sabbath. I mean, they had a good thing going on TYR. Albums were selling well, they had packed concerts in Europe and, if I recall correctly, their selling charts with Martin were bigger (in europe) than with Dio. So, they broke the neck of that for a born dead reunion. Still, it was great because we now have one more album with Dio (even tho I don't like Dehumanizer THAT much).

Ps: As El Lobo once said, for me Dehumanizer sounds like a big song to me. Many songs with the same sound and spirit. It does sound a huge song, maybe divided in acts, but is still a huge single song.

[DiosSword]

It was a good album with good songs (with Dio, Iommi, Butler, Appice and Nicholls how could it be otherwise?), but I think it was a bad situation.

I am one of the 0.000099999% of people in the U.S. who was a fan of the Tony Martin era and who thought they were on their way to reconsolidating the gist of what they were with Tyr. I had always thought Cozy Powell would be a good drummer for Sabbath.

When I heard about the Dio reunion in '91, I was stunned. RJD was doing quite well with his band (if not as well as he did out of the gate in '83-'84) and the Tyr lineup was getting noted about everywhere but here in the U.S. I knew it wouldn't last; the strongheadedness of both Ronnie James Dio and Tony Iommi hadn't just magically disappeared (Geezer, I think, is more of a "check which way the wind is blowing" type), and I was correct.

There was such hype over "Time Machine" being in Wayne's World but when I saw the movie I only barely heard the song for about two seconds.

If, as Ronnie James Dio claimed, Tony and Geezer would have ran for a reunion with Ozzy whenever Sharon snapped her fingers, and Costa Mesa seemed to bear that out, it was very disingenuous on the part of both of them: get the second-best-known singer (Dio) back to lead in to the reunion of the original lineup...but don't tell anyone, especially not the second-best-known singer.

That said, Dehumanizer is a fantastic album (I would like to hear the demos that Tony Martin did) and I got to see Black Sabbath live for the first time on that tour.

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

I think Strange Highways is the logical successor to Dehumanizer - very overlooked album in the Dio canon but great none the less - a lot of the riffs on it sound like something Tony would have written - especially on the title track.

Agreed. I really like that album, and Angry Machines because they sound so pissed-off.

[VikingChrist]

I want to echo the sentiment that it was a good album but ultimately bad for the band. Had they been able to stick it out with Dio, it could have quite possibly been a good thing. As mentioned before, the Tyr line up was gelling pretty nicely but Tony broke that up to bring Geezer and Dio back (Vinny is inconsequential; it would have been Cozy if Cozy wanted to stay but Cozy didn't and the horse accident just made it possible for the band to have a good cover story about why Cozy wasn't there). In the US and, to a certain extent, the UK, Sabbath had been losing ground for close to a decade, so I understand the reasoning behind reuniting with Dio. However, it fell apart and whatever popularity they gained from reuniting with Ronnie they lost, and more, when the Dehumanizer line up split. From what I understand, Cross Purposes and Forbidden didn't even sell as well as Tyr and Headless Cross. They never regained that momentum that they were building pre-Dehumanizer.

[DiosSword]

it would have been Cozy if Cozy wanted to stay but Cozy didn't and the horse accident just made it possible for the band to have a good cover story about why Cozy wasn't there

From what I've read, RJD and Cozy couldn't stand one another, going clear back to their days in Rainbow.

[VikingChrist]

From what I've read, RJD and Cozy couldn't stand one another, going clear back to their days in Rainbow.

Yup, that's what I understand, too. According to Geoff Nichols, Cozy was pretty much a straight ahead, pull no punches type guy and Ronnie could be nice to your face but talk shit behind your back and it caused a lot of friction between the two. I read something where Dio was talking about how Tony didn't always pick the best musicians for Sabbath and Cozy was his example. He thought Cozy was great for Rainbow but a poor fit for Sabbath (I disagree, but that's besides the point!), though, I imagine that some of that stems from Dio and Cozy's personal issues.

[sn0wb1ind0zzy]

I thought Dehumanizer was a great album. All of the songs managed to mold together and it always gave me the impression that the whole album was really just one big song. But thats not necessarily bad. I think I remember reading somewhere that Geezer wanted to try to make the entire album centered around the same concept. Musically, the songs were different then anything else in the past. They managed to forge sort of a new sound while still retaining their trademark sounds. This fact becomes quite evident if you compare Dehumanizer to The Mob Rules for example. I would say that this album is probably the darkest album they have ever done. The killer album cover is also a plus.