_Why_ is Tony Martin's era so forgotten?

[CrystalWorld]

Personally I can't get into the lyrics. I find that most of the time I'm not sure what they are about and more often than not they have some sort of religious theme. Which is fine, I love After forever, but every single song just kind wears me out. On Tyr he mentions a few Norse gods and I'm not sure for what purpose. Once again no religious bash or discussion intended I just think a variety of topics would be nice. I may be completely wrong but I just listened to his first four albums with Sabbath the other day and have listened to them numerous times in the past. I am a huge Sabbath fan and I find Tony Martin to be a wonderful singer, I want to like his lyrics but I just find it difficult.

[The Wretch]

There are some good points made here. I think the sheer amount of line up changes perhaps put people off, as well as those who weren't willing or able to accept anyone other than Ozzy or Dio, and just wanted the style of the early records. If they had been released as Iommi solo albums, maybe they would have been shown far more respect. Certainly I would rate them as highly as most of Ozzy or Ronnie's solo work.

One thing though, while the faithful, and certain younger metalheads curious about this legendary name, went out and bought the albums, and went to the gigs, I remember as a kid reading reviews that seemed to suggest that all Sabbath was old hat in the era of speed metal and glam. I recall when I started buying metal mags like Kerrang in 88/89, and reading reviews where new bands (e.g. Acid Reign) who even dared to cover Sabbath were slammed, so people in the press, and the casual observer were never going to give them a fair shot.

As far as Cross Purposes and Forbidden go, the backlash from Dio's departure, the increasing interest in the Ozzy era (and the media bias against melodic/80's metal) from fans of grunge (and doom/stoner rock to a certain extent) and the fact that Forbidden was painted as some trend hopping rap metal abortion all played their part. People simply don't give those albums a listen, which is a real pity. I know people who would love them if they would only give them a listen, but they are so entrenched in this image the press has built up of post Ozzy and/or Dio Sabs being "naff 80's rawk", they won't even take a chance. A lot of great music from the 80's and early 90's is unfairly dismissed, not just Black Sabbath.

Frankly, my favourite albums remain the Ozzy and Dio era ones, but I love the Martin era stuff too (as well as Born Again and even Seventh Star) whatever people think of them being released under the Black Sabbath name, there is no doubting the fact they were, and remain, very good heavy metal albums, with quality songs, some of Iommi's best playing, and stellar musicianship.

[Borg]

Personally I can't get into the lyrics. I find that most of the time I'm not sure what they are about and more often than not they have some sort of religious theme. Which is fine, I love After forever, but every single song just kind wears me out. On Tyr he mentions a few Norse gods and I'm not sure for what purpose. Once again no religious bash or discussion intended I just think a variety of topics would be nice. I may be completely wrong but I just listened to his first four albums with Sabbath the other day and have listened to them numerous times in the past. I am a huge Sabbath fan and I find Tony Martin to be a wonderful singer, I want to like his lyrics but I just find it difficult.

I agree, Tony Martin lyrics are hard to follow. I like if the lyrics tell a story, a beginning, a climax, and an end. Lyrics like "Children of the Sea" are lyrics I can understand and remember because they tell a story. Tony Martin is not so good at story telling.

[CrystalWorld]

I was wondering the other day: If they had managed to get Bill Ward on Cross purposes for 3/4 of the original Sabbath band perhaps this would have helped bring Tony Martin up to at least the status of Born again with Ian Gillan.

For that matter IF they can get Bill Ward on the current album.. well same line of thought except a much grander goal. lol

[Wyrdskein]

TYR is one of the best Sabbath albums in my opinion, but Cross Purposes is not. Rather like Born Again, the singing seems rather removed from the music and (I express this as someone ignorant of musical terminology) the lyrics themselves seem to be sung to no tune whatsoever (all you experts out there - can you put this in better terms?). Having said that, its not an album I hate; compared to most metal albums its up there. I feel that Dio would have done a better job, but am grateful to Tony Martin for his other Sabbath albums, which are amazing.

[Borg]

TYR is one of the best Sabbath albums in my opinion, but Cross Purposes is not. Rather like Born Again, the singing seems rather removed from the music and (I express this as someone ignorant of musical terminology) the lyrics themselves seem to be sung to no tune whatsoever (all you experts out there - can you put this in better terms?). Having said that, its not an album I hate; compared to most metal albums its up there. I feel that Dio would have done a better job, but am grateful to Tony Martin for his other Sabbath albums, which are amazing.

I like TYR too, it's my favourite from the Tony Martin Era, closely followed by Headless Cross.

I like a lot Scream, from Tony Martin's solo career. I know it is not a Black Sabbath Album, but it's next on my ranking system.

Next, follows Back where I belong, again, not a Black Sabbath album, but I like it a lot.

I like Forbidden the least, and for me Cross Purposes lies in between Forbidden and Headless Cross. I mean, I like it, but don't love it.

The lyrics from both Headless Cross and TYR are a bit like the lyrics from the Dio Era (wizards & dragons...), I can't compare them with any other Era's.

Certainly, the lyrics from Cross Purposes and Forbidden are very different. They seem to deal with personal feelings and even frustration.

There are some tracks from Scream where Tony Martin seem to have tried to make lyrics like those from Headless Cross and TYR.

[Wyrdskein]

I was prompted by this discussion to revisit Cross Purposes, which I must have only listened to a couple of times on its release, and put aside, and I have to say I've gone about a complete reversal in my opinion. I listened to it on my way to and from work for about a week, and ended up really getting into it. It is indeed a great album. Immaculate Deception has one of the most addictive riffs I have ever heard. This means I like all the Tony Martin era albums quite a lot.

[Pink Led Rush]

Personally I can't get into the lyrics. I find that most of the time I'm not sure what they are about and more often than not they have some sort of religious theme. Which is fine, I love After forever, but every single song just kind wears me out. On Tyr he mentions a few Norse gods and I'm not sure for what purpose. Once again no religious bash or discussion intended I just think a variety of topics would be nice. I may be completely wrong but I just listened to his first four albums with Sabbath the other day and have listened to them numerous times in the past. I am a huge Sabbath fan and I find Tony Martin to be a wonderful singer, I want to like his lyrics but I just find it difficult.

I don't really understand why your avatar is TYR then...

[SabbathsValhalla]

Change of singers the band done had a effect but Tony Martin is the second longest singer for Sabbath and it annoys me that his era is forgotten, and it shouldn't and I think if they release the deluxe editions they'll sell good (I'm bloody waiting for em) as are many more, I also think if lots of people demand for the Deluxe Editions we'll get em (Hopefully) and new fans can buy them and boost Tony Martin Era!!

[OzzyIsDio]

I know I have mentioned this before, I have grown to like some of the Tony Martin stuff, some pretty heavy stuff in his songs, music and lyric wise.


But I'll be honest, I don't know if I would've given TM a chance hadn't the name Black Sabbath, been on those records, I have all the albums from Ozzy to Martin, but could never really get into the Martin material, it all sounded too generic to me. I wont say I love the Martin material like I do the Ozzy, Dio, Gillan material, but I have always given the man credit and the respect he deserves for hanging in there as long as he did, to deny the man his due respect is an an injustice.

[MichaelWayne]

I agree, Tony Martin lyrics are hard to follow. I like if the lyrics tell a story, a beginning, a climax, and an end. Lyrics like "Children of the Sea" are lyrics I can understand and remember because they tell a story. Tony Martin is not so good at story telling.

What about Dying For Love, Evil Eye, Heaven In Black, Feels Good To Me, and I Won't Cry For You? I know Martin didn't write any of the EI lyrics, but that album is still associated with his era, and there's some great tracks from that album like Glory Ride, Hard Life to Live, and Born To Lose.

[Now in Darkness]

I actually really like the Tony Martin era, even though I am a true Ozzy Era fan. When I first heard Black Sabbath, Ozzy was still in the band, and Dio, etc, were not even on the Horizon yet. Why is the Martin era so forgotten? There are a few reasons that come to mind for me. Martin was a great singer, but he was quite generic, like Paul Rodgers, and that ilk. His persona was not very strong either. In interviews he presented like Bono, and was pretty soft and uninteresting. Martin was a nice kid stepping into a role, whereas Ozzy and Dio lived and owned the role. Who they were on stage is who they were in life. Dio's house was adorned from top to bottom with fantasy imagery and the like, and he lived the part; same with Ozzy. The last ingredient that made Martin forgettable, in my opinion, is that he was not sinister like Ozzy or Dio were. That ingredient alone, made Martin very different as a vocalist. Ozzy was the most sinister of all. Have a listen to Fairies Wear Boots, and compare that to anything Martin did. There is a distinct absence of grit in the Martin material, and he did not own the role...he just borrowed it for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love the Martin era, but I also understand why it was forgettable to many, as he could have just as easily fronted Foreigner.

[OzzyIsDio]

I actually really like the Tony Martin era, even though I am a true Ozzy Era fan. When I first heard Black Sabbath, Ozzy was still in the band, and Dio, etc, were not even on the Horizon yet. Why is the Martin era so forgotten? There are a few reasons that come to mind for me. Martin was a great singer, but he was quite generic, like Paul Rodgers, and that ilk. His persona was not very strong either. In interviews he presented like Bono, and was pretty soft and uninteresting. Martin was a nice kid stepping into a role, whereas Ozzy and Dio lived and owned the role. Who they were on stage is who they were in life. Dio's house was adorned from top to bottom with fantasy imagery and the like, and he lived the part; same with Ozzy. The last ingredient that made Martin forgettable, in my opinion, is that he was not sinister like Ozzy or Dio were. That ingredient alone, made Martin very different as a vocalist. Ozzy was the most sinister of all. Have a listen to Fairies Wear Boots, and compare that to anything Martin did. There is a distinct absence of grit in the Martin material, and he did not own the role...he just borrowed it for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love the Martin era, but I also understand why it was forgettable to many, as he could have just as easily fronted Foreigner.

You said it best.

[SabbathsValhalla]

The Tony Martin Era I got into easily The Eternal Idol I thought was great and naturally wanted to get the rest I ended up getting TYR next because I liked the sound of the Norse Theme and I wasn't disappointed then later on managed to get the last of his with Sabbath finally getting all 18 studio albums, and I must say Headless Cross is one of my favourite Sabbath albums the whole theme and sound is just brilliant and Cross Purposes is fantastic too great that Geezer was back, Forbidden wasn't brilliant but then wasn't awful either some good tracks on that album overall Tony Martin Era is brilliant and done well to continue the Sabbath name

[A Sabbath Historian]

I think the answer is simple: Martin's era of the band were simply Tony Iommi records and NOT Black Sabbath albums! As much as I hate to say it, Tony DID tarnish the Black Sabbath name with all the lineup changes. That said, 'Eternal Idol' and 'Headless Cross' are NOT bad records on their own merits. They just shouldn't have been called Black Sabbath. Both diehard and casual fans just rolled their eyes and ignored them. But I agree, Tony Martin has a good voice but when I see photos of that era I cringe that Tony actually had the hutzpah to call this lineup "Black Sabbath"! It looked as though they were desperate to compete with all the "pop metal" of the time, even Martin looked awkward on stage from some of the footage I've seen. Truth be told though, the 'Headless Cross' tour in 1989 was ALMOST going to be my first "Black Sabbath" concert had it NOT been cancelled due to low ticket sales! I believe W.A.S.P. and Kingdome Come were going to open. If memory serves me correctly, they only sold about 100 tickets in a roughly 15,000 capacity outdoor venue at the time. Interesting thread, thanks BSO!

[Now in Darkness]

I actually really like the Tony Martin era, even though I am a true Ozzy Era fan. When I first heard Black Sabbath, Ozzy was still in the band, and Dio, etc, were not even on the Horizon yet. Why is the Martin era so forgotten? There are a few reasons that come to mind for me. Martin was a great singer, but he was quite generic, like Paul Rodgers, and that ilk. His persona was not very strong either. In interviews he presented like Bono, and was pretty soft and uninteresting. Martin was a nice kid stepping into a role, whereas Ozzy and Dio lived and owned the role. Who they were on stage is who they were in life. Dio's house was adorned from top to bottom with fantasy imagery and the like, and he lived the part; same with Ozzy. The last ingredient that made Martin forgettable, in my opinion, is that he was not sinister like Ozzy or Dio were. That ingredient alone, made Martin very different as a vocalist. Ozzy was the most sinister of all. Have a listen to Fairies Wear Boots, and compare that to anything Martin did. There is a distinct absence of grit in the Martin material, and he did not own the role...he just borrowed it for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love the Martin era, but I also understand why it was forgettable to many, as he could have just as easily fronted Foreigner.

I wrote the above opinion a while back, and I stand by it, but I have to say that I have been listening to the Martin era albums again, and just finished a third listen to Cross Purposes. Martin is not my favorite Sabbath singer, but the man really was amazing. He did not possess the full package (voice, image, and authenticity) to take Sabbath to the next level, but he was a stunning vocalist nonetheless, and I wish his parting with Sabbath was more amicable than it appears to have been. Listen to Cross Purposes again if you have any doubts about his skill as a vocalist. The man was put in a difficult situation with all of the Sabbath and frontman turmoil, and he deserves his due. Hopefully the passage of time will be kind to Tony Martin as his Sabbath career is reflected upon in retrospect.

[EDTRADER]

From 1995 to 2005 nobody was playing those songs. TM didn't have a solo band until 2005 so it was the first time a band was active in performing those songs. Thats one reason I think why the era got forgot.

[MovieDemon]

I think there are many valid opinions here. I do think instability hurt. The ever-changing line-up, no Ozzy, no Dio, no real promotion by the record company and a lack of touring is certainly a tough obstacle to overcome. For many people I knew, they had thought Sabbath had become a joke.

That said, for me, my biggest problem is the music. It was rather ho-hum and while I agree that Tony Martin is a talented vocalist, he just never fit the band. In fact, I find it very difficult to listen to those albums in their entirety.

[DarkestLight]

I actually really like the Tony Martin era, even though I am a true Ozzy Era fan. When I first heard Black Sabbath, Ozzy was still in the band, and Dio, etc, were not even on the Horizon yet. Why is the Martin era so forgotten? There are a few reasons that come to mind for me. Martin was a great singer, but he was quite generic, like Paul Rodgers, and that ilk. His persona was not very strong either. In interviews he presented like Bono, and was pretty soft and uninteresting. Martin was a nice kid stepping into a role, whereas Ozzy and Dio lived and owned the role. Who they were on stage is who they were in life. Dio's house was adorned from top to bottom with fantasy imagery and the like, and he lived the part; same with Ozzy. The last ingredient that made Martin forgettable, in my opinion, is that he was not sinister like Ozzy or Dio were. That ingredient alone, made Martin very different as a vocalist. Ozzy was the most sinister of all. Have a listen to Fairies Wear Boots, and compare that to anything Martin did. There is a distinct absence of grit in the Martin material, and he did not own the role...he just borrowed it for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love the Martin era, but I also understand why it was forgettable to many, as he could have just as easily fronted Foreigner.

This is spot on. Can't improve upon this puppy

[Wicked Cricket]

The Tony Martin era Sabbath sounds dated... it's like a "B" squad Whitesnake... it's not classic in the sense of the timeless Ozzy Sab or even the 1st two Dio Sab albums... the music sounds 80's ish... it doesn't age well.. so it's ultimately forgotten... which is what they should have name their last album of this era... "Forgotten" instead of "Forbidden."

[OzzyIsDio]

The Tony Martin era Sabbath sounds dated... it's like a "B" squad Whitesnake... it's not classic in the sense of the timeless Ozzy Sab or even the 1st two Dio Sab albums... the music sounds 80's ish... it doesn't age well.. so it's ultimately forgotten... which is what they should have name their last album of this era... "Forgotten" instead of "Forbidden."

Wicket Cricket, to me Sabbath is Ozzy, I love the Dio era and the Gillan album Born Again, but with all due respect, Tony Martin deserves recognition and respect.

I'll be the first to say, I'm not the biggest fan of the Martin era, but I do have respect for the man, he stood in there for all those years despite being cut off several times and then being called back in again.

KUDOS FOR TONY MARTIN!!!!!

[Now in Darkness]

KUDOS FOR TONY MARTIN!!!!!

Indeed. It must have been very disheartening for him to have been treated as an expendable member of the band. He wasn't really allowed to preserve his dignity as he was shown the door, and that is sad. We never expected Ozzy to be back!?!?! Who knows what will happen in another 35 years, when they are all 99 years old.

[black sheep]

Because it is generic 80's metal crap that sounds like it is the soundtrack to some really bad 80's movie...does nothing but tarnish the Sabbath name.

[-E5150 StarWanderer-]

Because it is generic 80's metal crap that sounds like it is the soundtrack to some really bad 80's movie...does nothing but tarnish the Sabbath name.

Seriously dude, all you do on this board is rag on post-Ozzy material. Give it a rest already.

I don't like that Iommi kept the Sabbath name after Born Again either, but calling Martin era music "generic 80's metal crap that sounds like it is the soundtrack to some really bad 80's movie that does nothing but tarnish the Sabbath name" is just begging for a backlash.

Even if you are an Ozzy-only person who has a hard time living in a world where Sabbath carried on after Ozzy, Martin era produced music that was really good. Maybe not deserving/befitting of the Sabbath name, but good nonetheless. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but don't you spout out things like. Especially since you seem to do this on a constant basis.

[A Sabbath Historian]

To comment further on the Martin era I don't think it was so much "forgotten" as much as it was ignored by many fans, right or wrong, fairly or unfairly. Frankly, what I find more insulting is when a certain original singer and his wife always try ( and fail) to rewrite, if not outright delete, the history of the band after 1978. Even though I go on record to say that the Martin era is truly NOT Black Sabbath, I would NEVER pretend that the era didn't exist. There is a difference. That lineup did have SOME great moments. By the way, I've enjoyed reading the comments of the LOYAL fans of this particular incarnation, regardless of my opinion on the credibility of it. Thanks BSO.

[Wicked Cricket]

I actually really like the Tony Martin era, even though I am a true Ozzy Era fan. When I first heard Black Sabbath, Ozzy was still in the band, and Dio, etc, were not even on the Horizon yet. Why is the Martin era so forgotten? There are a few reasons that come to mind for me. Martin was a great singer, but he was quite generic, like Paul Rodgers, and that ilk. His persona was not very strong either. In interviews he presented like Bono, and was pretty soft and uninteresting. Martin was a nice kid stepping into a role, whereas Ozzy and Dio lived and owned the role. Who they were on stage is who they were in life. Dio's house was adorned from top to bottom with fantasy imagery and the like, and he lived the part; same with Ozzy. The last ingredient that made Martin forgettable, in my opinion, is that he was not sinister like Ozzy or Dio were. That ingredient alone, made Martin very different as a vocalist. Ozzy was the most sinister of all. Have a listen to Fairies Wear Boots, and compare that to anything Martin did. There is a distinct absence of grit in the Martin material, and he did not own the role...he just borrowed it for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love the Martin era, but I also understand why it was forgettable to many, as he could have just as easily fronted Foreigner.

Paul Rodgers "generic" !!!!!!!!!! The guy is arguabley the greatest rock singer of all time, at the very least, he's the most soulful singer ever, greatly praised by his pears... take a survey of rock and roll and blues and soul artists and ask them who their favorite singer is he proabbaly wins hands down, and he's stil lsinging as good or better today IN THE SAME KEY as he was 30 yrs ago!

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

To comment further on the Martin era I don't think it was so much "forgotten" as much as it was ignored by many fans, right or wrong, fairly or unfairly. Frankly, what I find more insulting is when a certain original singer and his wife always try ( and fail) to rewrite, if not outright delete, the history of the band after 1978. Even though I go on record to say that the Martin era is truly NOT Black Sabbath, I would NEVER pretend that the era didn't exist. There is a difference. That lineup did have SOME great moments. By the way, I've enjoyed reading the comments of the LOYAL fans of this particular incarnation, regardless of my opinion on the credibility of it. Thanks BSO.

Since I'm on the topic of polls... LOL... if you asked the man in the street in the USA, who Tony Martin "the rock singer" was most noted for singing in what band, you'd have to have a choice called "blank stare.." 'cause that's what you'd get... only the true die hard without your dignity intact knew who the TM era Sabbath was... it was that faceless and ignored... Sabbath was little more than a Holiday Inn lounge act in the US for cryin out loud durring the Martin era...

[black sheep]

Seriously dude, all you do on this board is rag on post-Ozzy material. Give it a rest already.

I don't like that Iommi kept the Sabbath name after Born Again either, but calling Martin era music "generic 80's metal crap that sounds like it is the soundtrack to some really bad 80's movie that does nothing but tarnish the Sabbath name" is just begging for a backlash.

Even if you are an Ozzy-only person who has a hard time living in a world where Sabbath carried on after Ozzy, Martin era produced music that was really good. Maybe not deserving/befitting of the Sabbath name, but good nonetheless. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but don't you spout out things like. Especially since you seem to do this on a constant basis.

I would apologize if I felt having my own opinion was something I should apologize for...but, it is not. I just do not like anything with TM or GH. They just sound generic. I have tried to listen to them and in fact just recently sat through and tortured myself (again) with The Eternal Idol...I could not even take it after the first song...but...I gave it a chance...I just don't like it...plain and simple...and I can say the same thing about all the other albums with those two.

FYI...I do not have to like all the same music you do...and I am entitled to my opinion...you don't see me bashing you for yours. If anyone should give it a rest...maybe you should. If you enjopy it...fine...you are among the few who do. GREAT FOR YOU!!!

[-E5150 StarWanderer-]

I would apologize if I felt having my own opinion was something I should apologize for...but, it is not. I just do not like anything with TM or GH. They just sound generic. I have tried to listen to them and in fact just recently sat through and tortured myself (again) with The Eternal Idol...I could not even take it after the first song...but...I gave it a chance...I just don't like it...plain and simple...and I can say the same thing about all the other albums with those two.

FYI...I do not have to like all the same music you do...and I am entitled to my opinion...you don't see me bashing you for yours. If anyone should give it a rest...maybe you should. If you enjopy it...fine...you are among the few who do. GREAT FOR YOU!!!

I wasn't criticizing your opinion, but the way you presented it, which was quite...harsh.

And like I stated, I'm not a fan of post-Born Again music line-ups carrying on with the Sabbath name. But if you look beyond the name dispute, the Martin era albums have some good music, atleast to my ears. You've given them a fair chance, so that's good! You're view about the music is just as valid as mine. But trumping the albums with comments like the one you made yesterday is pretty provocative considering were on a board dedicated to harcore Sabbath fans

Peace!

[black sheep]

You're view about the music is just as valid as mine. But trumping the albums with comments like the one you made yesterday is pretty provocative considering were on a board dedicated to harcore Sabbath fans

Peace!

I was just answering the OP question with my thoughts on the subject he asked. Nothing more, nothing less.

Harsh...well to some that maybe but, this is heavy metal...not the f-ing carpenters...heavy metal as i know it is harsh. That is why I love it. When has any heavy metal band been concerned with hurting someone feelings.

[-E5150 StarWanderer-]

I was just answering the OP question with my thoughts on the subject he asked. Nothing more, nothing less.

Harsh...well to some that maybe but, this is heavy metal...not the f-ing carpenters...heavy metal as i know it is harsh. That is why I love it. When has any heavy metal band been concerned with hurting someone feelings.

True But I was talking about the Martin era supporters here, there are plenty of them and they can be very vocal

[black sheep]

True But I was talking about the Martin era supporters here, there are plenty of them and they can be very vocal

Yep, and they are the reason I have gone back and gave (some of) those albums a second chance. I thought maybe I was missing something I did not hear when they first came out. Unfortumatly, I just do not like them no matter how hard I try.

[Wicked Cricket]

Wicket Cricket, to me Sabbath is Ozzy, I love the Dio era and the Gillan album Born Again, but with all due respect, Tony Martin deserves recognition and respect.

I'll be the first to say, I'm not the biggest fan of the Martin era, but I do have respect for the man, he stood in there for all those years despite being cut off several times and then being called back in again.

KUDOS FOR TONY MARTIN!!!!!

I have respect for TM as a professional, just stating the obvious, the music was good, very good, most written by Iommi, shall I say more? But the question I ask back is, was it worthy of being labled BLACK SABBATH?

BTW, I own every Martin era Sabbath record recorded... yes I died hard without dignity...

[OzzyIsDio]

I have respect for TM as a professional, just stating the obvious, the music was good, very good, most written by Iommi, shall I say more? But the question I ask back is, was it worthy of being labled BLACK SABBATH?

BTW, I own every Martin era Sabbath record recorded... yes I died hard without dignity...

I have every single official album with the moniker Sabbath, though the Glen Hughes and Tony Martin I have on cassette, just got the Seventh Star deluxe edition on CD and the Eternal Idol deluxe edition on CD.

[TYR66]

I have respect for TM as a professional, just stating the obvious, the music was good, very good, most written by Iommi, shall I say more? But the question I ask back is, was it worthy of being labled BLACK SABBATH?

BTW, I own every Martin era Sabbath record recorded... yes I died hard without dignity...

these records with Tony Martin (as Gillan , Dio except Hughes ,all know why 7Th 's called Black Sabbath ...)are Black Sabbath albums , definitively , just for one reason : Tony Iommi is the main creator of Black Sabbath , the DNA of the band .
some doubt about the name of the band ? Ask Tony !

[The Rules Mob]

Look at who his predecessors in the band were. At least two, and arguably three, of them were iconic voices of hard rock/heavy metal. Another was the bassist/singer in one of the most famous bands of all time. And, it is only fair to note that while some of the material released during the era is solid, none of the albums belong in the same category as Master of Reality or Mob Rules. So its not all on Martin.

[MichaelWayne]

I was wondering the other day: If they had managed to get Bill Ward on Cross purposes for 3/4 of the original Sabbath band perhaps this would have helped bring Tony Martin up to at least the status of Born again with Ian Gillan.

For that matter IF they can get Bill Ward on the current album.. well same line of thought except a much grander goal. lol

If they had used Rondinelli, we could have joked that it was Cross Purposes featuring Ozzy.

[THEBEAVERINTHEMANHAT]

I really don't like the Martin era (WHAM! I just felt the sledge hammer hit me!) to me it just sounds/feels like, well,"generic metal" (second round of hammering, BOOM!). I'm not knocking the music per say, I guess what I don't like is it being "Black Sabbath;" to me it isn't the Sabbath sound (that sound that was established by the original 4 and to some extent carried on w/ the Dio line-up(s) ). I guess I fall into that category that despite Sabbath continuing w/out Oz, they maybe should have changed their name in 1980 (in hindsight Heaven & Hell or Neon Knights would've worked) but I understand why you/they would keep the Sabbath name. Despite the Dio era being an AWESOME band, they still didn't really feel like Sabbath, they felt; well, different. Therefore, every line up after that became more diluted for me and by the time of the Martin-era Sabbath had lost whatever vibe or aura they had; I guess that "special spark" that made them so different (Same can be said for ACDC in my mind, though BJ is a great singer/front man; and made many great albums/singles it changed the vibe of the band). The Martin era songs just don't stand out for me from any other metal bands of the same time period; once again, am not saying they aren't any good (hell, I'm no musician, I couldn't do any better!) and am in no way judging their talents; just for me as a Sabbath fan I found the majority of albums after Dio's run to be, well, uninspiring. I have owned "Eternal Idol" FOUR different times; I buy it, keep it for a year or two; then trade it in. I have purchased it twice in the last four years or so due to fan's on this board with their praise for it, et al; so presently I own the Deluxe Edition, I've had it for about a year now and have listened to it maybe 5-6 times; most recently about a month ago in the car. I found myself skipping over some tracks, listening to the songs halfway and then getting bored. So believe me I know that there is something good there; I just don't know if it's for me? Maybe I can't get over my own "idea" about what Sabbath "should" sound like in my mind? I'm beginning to sound like Bill here (i.e. "...it's not Sabbath w/out Ozzy"). I guess the original band just established such a uniqueness that anything that followed it simply couldn't live up to that; I mean it's tough to follow a ground-breaker, you can't really re-break the ground, just keep building up; which I know is what Tony did; but for me the Martin era falls short. I know it's Sabbath in name, but for me not in soul.

[Wicked Cricket]

I really don't like the Martin era (WHAM! I just felt the sledge hammer hit me!) to me it just sounds/feels like, well,"generic metal" (second round of hammering, BOOM!). I'm not knocking the music per say, I guess what I don't like is it being "Black Sabbath;" to me it isn't the Sabbath sound (that sound that was established by the original 4 and to some extent carried on w/ the Dio line-up(s) ). I guess I fall into that category that despite Sabbath continuing w/out Oz, they maybe should have changed their name in 1980 (in hindsight Heaven & Hell or Neon Knights would've worked) but I understand why you/they would keep the Sabbath name. Despite the Dio era being an AWESOME band, they still didn't really feel like Sabbath, they felt; well, different. Therefore, every line up after that became more diluted for me and by the time of the Martin-era Sabbath had lost whatever vibe or aura they had; I guess that "special spark" that made them so different (Same can be said for ACDC in my mind, though BJ is a great singer/front man; and made many great albums/singles it changed the vibe of the band). The Martin era songs just don't stand out for me from any other metal bands of the same time period; once again, am not saying they aren't any good (hell, I'm no musician, I couldn't do any better!) and am in no way judging their talents; just for me as a Sabbath fan I found the majority of albums after Dio's run to be, well, uninspiring. I have owned "Eternal Idol" FOUR different times; I buy it, keep it for a year or two; then trade it in. I have purchased it twice in the last four years or so due to fan's on this board with their praise for it, et al; so presently I own the Deluxe Edition, I've had it for about a year now and have listened to it maybe 5-6 times; most recently about a month ago in the car. I found myself skipping over some tracks, listening to the songs halfway and then getting bored. So believe me I know that there is something good there; I just don't know if it's for me? Maybe I can't get over my own "idea" about what Sabbath "should" sound like in my mind? I'm beginning to sound like Bill here (i.e. "...it's not Sabbath w/out Ozzy"). I guess the original band just established such a uniqueness that anything that followed it simply couldn't live up to that; I mean it's tough to follow a ground-breaker, you can't really re-break the ground, just keep building up; which I know is what Tony did; but for me the Martin era falls short. I know it's Sabbath in name, but for me not in soul.

Well said Beaver... it's a hard subject explain sometimes.. but I get you... had those records been labeled The Tony Iommi Band... or something like you mentioned, they would have had more respect and held up on their own, rather than ultimately be compared to previous BLACK SABBATH records... but Tony I. brought that pressure on himself and the band when he went out under the BS tent... it was a collossal mistake, and failure... there's no if's and's or but's about that, they sold next to nothing... most if not all those records are out of print... IRS was a backroom record company, they couldn't sign with a major label... I still scratch my head that Iommi let the Sabbath name get dragged thru the muds like that... it's not that the music was bad, or the musicians.. but when your name is mnade on albums like BLACK SABBATH, PARANOID, MASTER OF REALITY... SABBATH BLOODY SABBATH... even HEAVEN and HELL, & Mob Rules... your pushing the envelope too far when you carry on 10 yrs or more and half a doz. albums selling out movie theaters in Europe... they couldn't sell out a Holiday Inn Lounge in the USofA in this time period, and that's just not the way to treat the time honored, iconic name and band called BLACK SABBATH... bottom line, they were an average band, nothing special, nothing unique about them, like the original Ozzy era, or the 2 diamonds of the Dio era, H&H and Mob Rules... those records had magic... the magic was all gone by the time Born Again showed up in 1983...I bought al lthe records but I'm not too proud to say that BLACK SABBATH in my mind, and heart... existed from 1970 - 1982 (from the first album to Mob Rules), after that, even the subsequent Dio albums Dehuman and TDYK were just too far and few between to really add to their legacy... and at least TDYK didn't have the weight of the BS name to further burden it...