The 2012 "Bill Ward's Contract" fiasco

[Brian F]

I don't really have a problem with Ozzy co-owning the Black Sabbath trademark. By the mid-80s, Tony Iommi was the sole remaining original member of the Sabs and the band was his to do with what he wanted. Lean years followed, the Tony Martin era was musically fine but hardly pulled in the crowds (I saw this band play to around 1000 people in Edinburgh). Dehumanizer raised the stakes somewhat but Sabbath continued to play theatres and modest concert halls.

Tony had experienced so much more in the past and understandably wanted that level of success again, which paved the way for the eventual re-union with Ozzy. But it came at a price, Ozzy was a huge star in his own right and any revival in the fortunes of Black Sabbath would be down to his input. I guess a business arrangement was struck which suited both parties. You can't just revoke these agreements later just because person X falls out with person Y. One side would have to buy the other out.

Something similar happened when Michael Schenker rejoined UFO - he got 50% of a band name that he hadn't played in for many years. It probably happens quite often in the music business. Ozzy and his manager, quite rightly, want to protect their own investment.

But I still want Bill back in the band....on a fair deal. A lot of silly stuff has been going on with Facebook but this site is for Sabbath fans and these threads have proved that the people who follow the band want to see William Thomas Ward occupying the drum stool for what will most likely turn out to be Sabbath's last hurrah.

[Iconosphere]

I don't really have a problem with Ozzy co-owning the Black Sabbath trademark. By the mid-80s, Tony Iommi was the sole remaining original member of the Sabs and the band was his to do with what he wanted. Lean years followed, the Tony Martin era was musically fine but hardly pulled in the crowds (I saw this band play to around 1000 people in Edinburgh). Dehumanizer raised the stakes somewhat but Sabbath continued to play theatres and modest concert halls.

Tony had experienced so much more in the past and understandably wanted that level of success again, which paved the way for the eventual re-union with Ozzy. But it came at a price, Ozzy was a huge star in his own right and any revival in the fortunes of Black Sabbath would be down to his input. I guess a business arrangement was struck which suited both parties. You can't just revoke these agreements later just because person X falls out with person Y. One side would have to buy the other out.

Something similar happened when Michael Schenker rejoined UFO - he got 50% of a band name that he hadn't played in for many years. It probably happens quite often in the music business. Ozzy and his manager, quite rightly, want to protect their own investment.

But I still want Bill back in the band....on a fair deal. A lot of silly stuff has been going on with Facebook but this site is for Sabbath fans and these threads have proved that the people who follow the band want to see William Thomas Ward occupying the drum stool for what will most likely turn out to be Sabbath's last hurrah.

Well said Mr F.

[Sabbathman]

VINNY APPICE: It Would Be 'Hard' To Turn Down Opportunity To Play With BLACK SABBATH Again - Feb. 9, 2012

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/bla...sitemID=169520

[57goldtop]

We shouldn't get too obsessed with all the details ! bottom line is , the trademark copyrights are split between Ozzy and Iommi !

I'm not. I only raised this because everyone is saying Ozzy and Tony own the name, whereas the hard evidence is that at least in the US Tony is still the sole owner of the registered trademark "Black Sabbath". And I'd be surprised if it was any different in the UK. He can agree to share whatever he likes with Ozzy or whoever else he likes but on the face of it Ozzy is *not* a co-owner of the name.




















[/I]

[Wicked Cricket]

I think it's fair to say we all want Bill in, but if he's not, Vinny is next closest sab brother the band has, he was with Tony and Geez from Mob Rules, H&H tour even, and he knows the Ozzy songs. I'd have no problem, but still holding out hope Bill is in eventually.

[57goldtop]

We shouldn't get too obsessed with all the details ! bottom line is , the trademark copyrights are split between Ozzy and Iommi !

I'm not- I only raised the point because everyone was saying Tony and Ozzy own the name. On the face of it, this is not so- at least in the US, Tony is still the *sole* owner of the registered trademark "Black Sabbath". He may or may not have agreed to split something with Ozzy but Ozzy is *not* registered as a co-owner of the name. It may of course suit Ozzy and/or his manager for everyone to think he is.

[Sabbathman]

I think it's fair to say we all want Bill in, but if he's not, Vinny is next closest sab brother the band has, he was with Tony and Geez from Mob Rules, H&H tour even, and he knows the Ozzy songs. I'd have no problem, but still holding out hope Bill is in eventually.

^ My thoughts exactly.

Vinny is - will always be - a Sabbath stalwart. I want Bill on this final tour (not only because he's the original drummer, but because I've never seen Sabbath with him), but if it's not to be, then it has to be Vinny who takes the job. Vinny is the man who has a real legacy with this band.

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

May 18 – Moscow, Russia (Olimpiski)

It's only few days over 3 months until the first show. Everybody knows how quickly the time goes, especially from now to May. I think they should soon give us an announcement concerning the tour - will it go as planned or will it be cancelled, with the only show being played (and recorded for a DVD) at the Download Festival?

I know it's selfish to think about the tour, when Tony's health is still a big question mark...but everyone here not only hopes for Tony's recovery of course, but also for the tour to realize. There are still many people who have never seen Sabbath live - any of their incarnations, let alone the original - and many people have seen Sabbath years and years ago. My first - and latest - Sabbath show was in 1998. It feels like it was ages ago, in another world, in another timescape...

[NibRules]

This Tommy Clufetos thing just does not sound right. I mean he has nothing to do with Black Sabbath. Well, I don't know anymore... if they are going to replace Bill with just some drummer (which I think Tommy Clufetos is in this case, just some drummer) it does not feel right, it does not make right to Bill, it does make right to Black Sabbath legacy, it would not be reunion, it would not be Black Sabbath. And for this last time it has to be the original Black Sabbath, anything else would be so much lesser, it should end as it started and at the moment it is still possible... so please work it out, this would be terrible thing to waste.

[Sabbathman]

But while we wait for the business issues to be solved and the tour arrangements to be made, we must send some prayers for Tony's benefit. Tony's been going through chemo and headaches...and still he's been churning monster riffs. He's truly my hero.

So here's hoping for Tony's recovery, first back to normal life, then to everything else.

[mds]

This Tommy Clufetos thing just does not sound right. I mean he has nothing to do with Black Sabbath. Well, I don't know anymore... if they are going to replace Bill with just some drummer (which I think Tommy Clufetos is in this case, just some drummer) it does not feel right, it does not make right to Bill, it does make right to Black Sabbath legacy, it would not be reunion, it would not be Black Sabbath. And for this last time it has to be the original Black Sabbath, anything else would be so much lesser, it should end as it started and at the moment it is still possible... so please work it out, this would be terrible thing to waste.

It might be possible that Ozzy requested Clufetos take part so that there is "balance" between camps. If Vinny were to join, Ozzy might feel outnumbered, so to speak, since Tony, Geezer, and Vinny have a history together and solid working relationship.

[MH1986]

It might be possible that Ozzy requested Clufetos take part so that there is "balance" between camps. If Vinny were to join, Ozzy might feel outnumbered, so to speak, since Tony, Geezer, and Vinny have a history together and solid working relationship.

Or it may be an unfounded rumor. Or just trying out drummers.Vinnie has played with Sabbath w/Ozzy in relief of Bill in the past as well. In fact he was offered a job in Ozzy's band when they where putting it together years ago. Vinnie declined and later took the Sabbath gig. If Bill doesn't join them eventually Vinnie is the best choice. Cluefetos is just your average metal drummer. Not bad but nothing special.

[fishtowner]

I love Bill Ward as a drummer. He is up there with John Bonham my other favorite drummer of all time. Now when it come to it being a problem with Sharon, Tony or himself who really knows. But I do recall it was him who had a problem with what they were asking him to do drum wise when he was supposed to be a part of the Sabbath/Heaven and hell album project. So he also has a history of finding issue with all these reunions. I just hope they all work it out. I want to see that whole original band.

[Ala]

I agree with what most of you have said. IF Bill is truly out of this reunion, album and tour (and if it ever happens at all), the only real choice is Vinny Appice.

[SGfanatic]

While I would have no problem with Vinny on the record/tour....as I feel Dio and Vinny should be in the R&R HOF together with the 4 original members. So Vinny is the ONLY choice if you want to call it Black Sabbath. But you can't call it a reunion album/tour.

To me, the following is the be all and end all on the subject.....these are Ozzy's words, not mine as I just mentioned my feelings on Ronnie and Vinny.


I couldn't find this quote anywhere online so I'll transpose from the book myself.

Page 323

"As far as I'm concerned Black Sabbath consists of Bill Ward, Ozzy Osbourne, Geezer Butler and Tony Iommi. And thats it. I could have Ginger Baker or Phil Collins on drums and it wouldn't be Black Sabbath"

Page 327

"When we did Ozzfest last year with Mike Bordin, the whole tour seemed weird. Mike's a great drummer, but he's not Bill Ward, and you just can't replace any member of this band, really"

-Ozzy 1997

-Doom Let Loose by Martin Popoff

[mikesline]

they should get paris hilton if bill ain't there ,who the fuck cares--cause it ain't black sabbath to me!

my picture i took in '76 long beach

[TheElfoid]

It's most likely Cluftos is kept on a retainer by Ozzy, so he's the ideal go-to guy in the short term. Right now, for demo recordings, they'll make do with any old drummer. I would guess he's been brought in as the cheapest, and easiest to get hold of temporary stand-in for the recording process while they audition someone new. Now, obviously if he's working with them - fair old chance he'll make the cut. But I'm sure Tony and Geezer want to try him out first. Calm down all of you.

[J Hillenburg]

And as hard as it is for people to grasp, it isn't going to be an equal split. I'm sure Bill is expecting nowhere near that. Maybe when they began, way back when in their minibus travelling on the M6 up to Carlisle to play some club in 1968. Things are a bit different now.

Help us grasp it. Is it because Tony and Ozzy are clearly the biggest names of the four onstage and, thus, can set terms? Or is it because Tony, Ozzy, and Geezer helped create the Sabbath sound MORE than Bill did? It is definitely hard for someone to grasp a concept when the only reason you provide is because things have changed. Pretty vague.

If you are citing pragmatic reasons, meaning that the mainstream visibility and earning power of some band members far outweighs the name recognition of others, it makes financial sense, but it certainly doesn't fall in line with the loving pablum that the band spits out about each other when its public relations time. However, what it does fall in line with is a consistent pattern of slighting Ward's contributions and his character. This is the same guy Tony lit on fire. This is the same guy they sent to do the dirty work when Ozzy was fired. He'd nod, bite his tongue, and do the bidding of others. It's not 1978 anymore and he's sober. Ward wants to be there, but he isn't going to be slighted for the privilege of taking the stage with men who do not believe he is their equal. Things aren't any different now artistically. Bill Ward played the drums on all those jams that morphed into the songs we know and love. His musical contributions and skills helped fashion the band into the legend it is today. Bill Ward is the man who's written and recorded albums far more varied, far more representative of the flesh and blood man behind the music, than any of his former band mates have managed in far too many years. Yeah, it's show business. That's the problem. It's show business to the rabid exclusion of everything else.

I know my argument is emotional, peppered with some logic, but largely a passionate rant from a disillusioned Sabbath fan. I mean, at what point does it say something about the men involved with this band when you are surprised that someone isn't complaining about getting disrespected or screwed over? I expected this to happen from the SECOND the announcement came and, by god, they didn't confound my expectations. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

This is just a fiasco. Are they really going to release a new album and tour under a cloud of controversy? Really? Thanks guys. Remind me why I ever cared.

[ozzfloyd]

We Want Bill!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HvEv91xhdw

[Soul Sucker]

Help us grasp it. Is it because Tony and Ozzy are clearly the biggest names of the four onstage and, thus, can set terms? Or is it because Tony, Ozzy, and Geezer helped create the Sabbath sound MORE than Bill did? It is definitely hard for someone to grasp a concept when the only reason you provide is because things have changed. Pretty vague.

Regardless of how much input each band member has, the band isn't going to equally split the money. That was the point he was trying to make. He never said it was the right thing to do. I don't know why you're arguing with him about it, when he never disagreed with you in the first place.

[scorpio 2000]

I like Bill Ward and i hope they get that little contract problem solved before they tour . If they tour. Having said that , Bill Ward is a good drummer but i have read what some people have been saying comparing him to John Bonham????? In his prime he was nowhere near as good as Bonham. Ian Paice, Billy Cobham,Carl Palmer,Keith Moon and Neil Peart. Those are real drummers. If Bill doesnt join the guys, Sabbath will survive without him. Iommi has been doing it alone without the other guys for years. Van halen did it without David Lee Roth. They did it without Mike Anthony. I think as long as they still rock , i dont think the fans will care. I just bought the new Van Halen and it kicked ass. I also thought that Bill putting his business on face book , trying to get the fans on his side and force the bands hand was unprofessional. I hope it doesnt backfire on him. I guess im biased because i saw sabbath 6 times . The original members 3 times. I think you can get away with atleast 3 original members and still call it sabbath but it wont be a reunion. We went through this last year, If you think Ozzy is getting the same amount of money the other guys are getting, your kidding yourself. Ozzy followed by Tony then Geezer. Unfortunately Bill is last. Maybe if he toured with H and H it might have improved his market value. He claimed he wasnt healthy enough to do a tour. He also claimed he didnt have time to come up with drum parts for the songs that appeared on the Dio years cd. Im not a drummer but how hard is it to come up with drum parts for those three songs? I think Iommi wrote those three riffs with Bill in mind. It wasnt like he was asked to come up with parts for songs like ,Rock an Roll, Tom Sawyer or Hot for teacher.

[J Hillenburg]

Regardless of how much input each band member has, the band isn't going to equally split the money. That was the point he was trying to make. He never said it was the right thing to do. I don't know why you're arguing with him about it, when he never disagreed with you in the first place.

I don't really see myself as arguing about it. Or at least I don't want to. I'm very frustrated with the situation, so if anyone takes offense with how I'm expressing that frustration, I'll own it.

[Ochlocracy]

Anyone who says Bill isn't "creative" should listen to Iron Man. The power from that song comes from every member playing the same thing. No drummers did that before Bill as far as I know. He doesn't just keep time and play the same Kick-Tom-Hi hat stuff in every song, he follows the band and plays more dynamic and interesting parts. He's also a talented singer-songwrither that could contribute to the lyrics on the album. That's why Bill is my favourite drummer.

[Axeman77]

I like Bill Ward and i hope they get that little contract problem solved before they tour . If they tour. Having said that , Bill Ward is a good drummer but i have read what some people have been saying comparing him to John Bonham????? In his prime he was nowhere near as good as Bonham. Ian Paice, Billy Cobham,Carl Palmer,Keith Moon and Neil Peart. Those are real drummers. If Bill doesnt join the guys, Sabbath will survive without him. Iommi has been doing it alone without the other guys for years. Van halen did it without David Lee Roth. They did it without Mike Anthony. I think as long as they still rock , i dont think the fans will care. I just bought the new Van Halen and it kicked ass. I also thought that Bill putting his business on face book , trying to get the fans on his side and force the bands hand was unprofessional. I hope it doesnt backfire on him. I guess im biased because i saw sabbath 6 times . The original members 3 times. I think you can get away with atleast 3 original members and still call it sabbath but it wont be a reunion. We went through this last year, If you think Ozzy is getting the same amount of money the other guys are getting, your kidding yourself. Ozzy followed by Tony then Geezer. Unfortunately Bill is last. Maybe if he toured with H and H it might have improved his market value. He claimed he wasnt healthy enough to do a tour. He also claimed he didnt have time to come up with drum parts for the songs that appeared on the Dio years cd. Im not a drummer but how hard is it to come up with drum parts for those three songs? I think Iommi wrote those three riffs with Bill in mind. It wasnt like he was asked to come up with parts for songs like ,Rock an Roll, Tom Sawyer or Hot for teacher.

what the fuck are talking about? realy drummerss.......

"Sabbath will survive without him" what a load of shit...it's supposed be a renuion.

[SGfanatic]

If Ozzy himself says its not Black Sabbath without any of them....how can he justify the current situation?

It also hurts the ridiculous argument that Ozzy has made for years that Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules, Dehumanizer, etc... is not Sabbath.

I'll keep hammering this, I have no problem with Vinny stepping in. The Devil You Know was recorded only a few years ago and its a darn good album, this proved that at least Tony, Geezer and Vinny can still rock like Gods.

However Ozzy hasn't made a really solid studio recording since No More Tears. Geezer hasn't really done anything away from Tony and/or Ozzy...prety much ever. And he is my favorite bassist of all time. so I'm not bashing him one bit. Bill showed he can still play on the last original lineup era,however I'm not sure what he can bring the table in 2012.

Which brings me to the issue of Bill as an integral member of the original Sabbath. His jazz style was unique to rock and he is brilliant on the first 6 albums. Watch the Paris 1970 show and Bill steals the show almost.

This is to me the greatest band ever. Its a sin that Bill does not get the recognition from so many that he deserves.

Bottom line....Ozzy can't have it both ways. He can't say himself that Sabbath is not Sabbath without Bill Ward and its always been his stance that Sabbath is not Sabbath without himself. Yet now, you want to give us an album with a 32 yr old drummer who is basically your own employee....not taking anything away from him, he is an excellent drummer.

Bill or Vinny or call it something else or shelve the whole project entirely. I personally have lost so much of the excitement I had the day of the press conference.....the same day I said to a friend..."you never know if this will really happen until you hear/see it"

[Ryan Porter]

When you mention Alex Van Halen I think you can easily say his style including the Hot For Teacher stuff has a strong Ward influence.

Strange even when on a Sabbath board you can disregard the influence on another band you choose to bring up. We should ask Alex what he thinks because no doubt like his brother he's a Sabbath fanatic. And Neil Peart is an overrated technicality obsessed arsehole. He couldn't groove like Bill if he was taught by Bill Ward himself.

On the subject of Neil Peart, I'll have to kindly disagree with his technicality obsessiveness ... he's definitely focused on his approach to drums, but he and Bill Ward are totally apples to oranges ... there's no way to properly compare them on any level, because Bill Ward is literally a by-the-feel-of-the-song basher (in as good a way I can mean that as possible, as Ward is my first and foremost influence), whereas Neil Peart is a compositional drummer, who focuses on the right fill at the right time, in a sorta literary way (like writing a story on drums), in as precise a way as possible. Couldn't be anymore different if they tried.

They have totally different ways to groove ... Bill Ward by the seat of his pants, Neil Peart by the build of the song he's writing drums for. Both can groove, and arguably, Neil Peart is the superior jazzer, because he actually STUDIED it, and was taught it, and even played with Buddy Rich's jazz band itself. Never forget, though, that mister Neil also is very severely rock-oriented as well, and Keith Moon/John Bonham make their way into his playing on a by-the-song basis.

[Ochlocracy]

i dont think the fans will care.

That explains why people are saying "Who cares? It's just Bill" all over this thread right?

[DaniArrow]

Well the thing (to me) is sure Ozzy, Geezer, Tony and whoever could make a kick-ass album.

But the reason why I was really happy in the first place is that the 4 of them, the original members, would finally get together for a record again. That was what excited me about the whole thing. Now, it ain't much more or less of a big thing than another Ozzy album or another Iommi album or something.

[SweetSymptom]

It's most likely Cluftos is kept on a retainer by Ozzy, so he's the ideal go-to guy in the short term. Right now, for demo recordings, they'll make do with any old drummer. I would guess he's been brought in as the cheapest, and easiest to get hold of temporary stand-in for the recording process while they audition someone new. Now, obviously if he's working with them - fair old chance he'll make the cut. But I'm sure Tony and Geezer want to try him out first. Calm down all of you.

True. Regarding demo recordings remember that Sabbath had Quartz' Malcolm Cope with them when they were working on songs for Born Again, before Bill flew over. I think those were the specifics.

[drian]

Black sabbath have started allowing people to post comments on there facebook wall again

[KHH]

It's not Sabbath if it has Ozzy in it.


[/COLOR]

That is true and I did mean the same in a roundabout bashing way. Ward couldn't play like Bill. I don't mind Peart but I don't see him in the same light as Rush fans do. But somehow I think Terry Bozzio is great and he's in the same category.

Speaking of Bozzio and different drumming styles. He got the boot from a Korn recording 'cause he didn't fit. They were all excited at first, having this drummer legend in their ranks but in the end they ended up having the singer doing a lot of the drumming on that particular record. Just shows that no matter how good the drummer is he does not necessarily fit every band. Comparing Peart and Ward is indeed apples and oranges.

[IRON-MaN]

Somehow I feel this whole fiasco ( more or less) was cooked up to create more buzz and even more interest when they announce again that Bill is back and that the album is almost done ! there were just too many rumors and what seems to me as intentional marketing tactics to stir up the whole rock/metal community ! check out Sabbath's and Bill's FB pages for instances , the number of fans have been growing instantly ever since ! one of the main lines that stuck within in my head reading Ozzy's bio a couple of days back , he says that one of his main dreams and ambitions is to get a #1 album on the U.S charts !

I get the feeling ( or rather hope !) that they will announce that Bill is back on board in time with Birmingham announcing their official 'BLACK SABBATH' date soon !

[Old_Papa_Rich]

Which brings me to the issue of Bill as an integral member of the original Sabbath. His jazz style was unique to rock and he is brilliant on the first 6 albums.

If you are limiting yourself to the first six albums, you are missing some of Bill's best work. I defy you to listen to Dirty Women and not find the drumming amazing. The jazz line in Junior's Eyes is superb. But in the end, what others are saying is the truth. Bill plays the drums like a jazz instrument, not a time keeper. It's what gives the songs their feel as much or more than Ton and Geezer.

[Ryan Porter]

If you are limiting yourself to the first six albums, you are missing some of Bill's best work. I defy you to listen to Dirty Women and not find the drumming amazing. The jazz line in Junior's Eyes is superb. But in the end, what others are saying is the truth. Bill plays the drums like a jazz instrument, not a time keeper. It's what gives the songs their feel as much or more than Ton and Geezer.

Absolutely agreed on Dirty Women ... but all of Technical Ecstasy has some fantastic drumming, imo. Never Say Die is hit or miss, honestly.

[Damian]

Great dialogue going here! Just a reminder to keep it friendly, calling out a member of Sabbath or management for being greedy or an arsehole is one thing, but wishing one of them dead does NOT belong here. Regardless of what side of the Sabbath fence you lean on, its all a part of the history, so to us, it will always be SABBATH. Please keep that in mind when posting.

I've been keeping out of this discussion for the most part and I talk with Joe every so often and there really is only one piece of info that would put a lot of this in perspective. That would be Bill's definition of "fair and signable" in terms of his cut of the money and contract percentage. It seems like to take a step back in your dignity to air your grievance to the general public would mean putting it all out there for the people to debate and/or take action from. My gut tells me that if Bill really wanted a smaller cut then the rest, but something still respectful of his time and stature in the band, he would put it out there. If he stood on a pedastal and yelled "I only want 10%! Is that too much to ask?" then the legions willing to go to bat for him would probably have put this issue to bed by now. Because 10% reads to the fans as "I don't care about the money, I just want to play in the band for the kids again", and so many of us can identify with that gesture as a good-guy move. Numbers and percentages were not mentioned, however, which makes me think that maybe Bill really is after 25%, which of course can be called fair, but maybe taking everything into account makes this less so. Everything including the fact that the band had to pay extra money to keep a full-time backup drummer on a tour because of Bill's health in the past, and also the huge success from the last reunion with a "less than 25%" input from Bill. He couldn't even get to play on Selling My Soul in the studio, they actually preferred keeping a drum machine on the final mix! Makes me wonder just how important it was for him to follow the machine's beats on Psycho Man just so they could say the foursome recorded again. And did he write any of it? Maybe he wrote part of Scary Dreams, which never saw studio production, but the point is that Black Sabbath has already proven that the reunion will be a huge moneymaker with or without Bill. Moreso with him? YES! But enough to cough up a ton of dough for? And THAT I think is where the dilemma is, right now. Fans always seem to get over being jerked around, we suck like that. If this gets worked out, it will have to be soon. Every week without Bill in the studio over there makes the whole separation easier to digest for the powers that be. If the fans want to do something for Bill, they key word here is SOON. Just my arm-chair thoughts.

[J Hillenburg]

Absolutely agreed on Dirty Women ... but all of Technical Ecstasy has some fantastic drumming, imo. Never Say Die is hit or miss, honestly.

It's funny, but I think that while Bill might have been reaching a personal low in his struggle with drugs and alcohol, his live drumming was very good during this period. His studio work on Born Again is simply superb as well.

[IRON-MaN]

Sorry to go back to this , but this link shows how the lawsuit got settled between Iommi & Ozzy !
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-find-number?...demark=2189260

[DiosSword]

First of all, Bill is not a drummer, by his own admission. He is a percussionist. He is not a timekeeper in the mould of (say) Phil Rudd. That is what makes his style so unique and recognisable. Listen to the first Trouble album...you can hear Bill's influence all over Jeff Olson's drumming.

I honestly am not surprised by this turn of events. Black Sabbath Mk. I was lightning-in-a-bottle and it's rare to capture that twice.

I confess, when I first heard it, I thought "this has Sharon's fingerprints all over it." I don't think she is actually evil, but she is so single-mindedly steamrolling about achieving her aims (no doubt learnt from her father) and making sure Ozzy gets prime billing, prime pay, etc., that she is not at all concerned at who she pisses on in getting that. The only other manager I can think of who was that utterly ruthless was Peter Grant/Richard Cole. Do I wish her harm? No...in fact she was in my prayers when she fought cancer (colorectal; the same kind that killed my dad). However, I would trust her about as far as I could throw Mount Everest.

I do not think they should try to continue. Tony's #1 priority is taking care of himself. Ozzy hasn't done a truly good album for me since No Rest For The Wicked. I wasn't bowled over by either of the studio tracks on Reunion, especially given that one used a drum machine instead of Wardy...but I have to say that Wardy's drumming on the live songs on Reunion was absolutely amazing.

Vinny Appice...has anyone given thought to the possibility that he may not want to do it? He and RJD were good friends (as Ronnie once said, "two New York Italians") as well as musical colleagues. He may not want anything to do with anything Sabbath-related since Ronnie is gone.

However, if they were to continue on, one drummer I always thought would be excellent for Sabbath (of any lineup) would be Aynsley Dunbar. He's British (though not a Brummie), and both a solid timekeeper and able to do the jazzy bits (listen to the first three Journey albums).

I would still be very surprised if this reunion continues.

[Iconosphere]

A video update to what had been going on. (Feb 9th)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjneZ...layer_embedded

http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/...sitemID=169785

[Deuce Frehley]

Vinny Appice...has anyone given thought to the possibility that he may not want to do it? He and RJD were good friends (as Ronnie once said, "two New York Italians") as well as musical colleagues. He may not want anything to do with anything Sabbath-related since Ronnie is gone.

Vinny had this to say about it:

http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/...sitemID=169520

[Devon Jones]

When you mention Alex Van Halen I think you can easily say his style including the Hot For Teacher stuff has a strong Ward influence.

Strange even when on a Sabbath board you can disregard the influence on another band you choose to bring up. We should ask Alex what he thinks because no doubt like his brother he's a Sabbath fanatic.

That would put Alex in a strange position to comment as he and Eddie have forced one long time member out of the band for very very petty reasons.