The 2012 "Bill Ward's Contract" fiasco

[KHH]

That's pretty funny. Osbourne and Iommi share the brand "Black Sabbath" in music, clothing and mugs!!
Now, I think it is better that at least two of the members have a say in it and that the settlement is better than how it was before, but if I were Tony I'd start making Black Sabbath-plates and Black Sabbath cutlery just for the sake of it. And, of course, Black Sabbath beer glassware! That ain't mugs, is it...

[DaniArrow]

Bill plays the drums like a jazz instrument, not a time keeper. It's what gives the songs their feel as much or more than Ton and Geezer.

SO TRUE! That is exactly how I feel about it and why another Sabbath Record or Tour without him won't be a big deal to me!

[Sabbathman]

Nice to know something like this from Sharon...

http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/...sitemID=169785

SHARON OSBOURNE Says BLACK SABBATH Drummer Situation Is 'Up In The Air' - Feb. 14, 2012

Artisan News caught up with Ozzy Osbourne's wife/manager Sharon Osbourne last Thursday (February 9) at The Grammy Foundation's annual Grammy Week preservation event at the Saban Theatre in Beverly Hills, California and spoke to her about the current BLACK SABBATH drummer situation (see video below). When asked if Ozzy, bassist Geezer Butler and guitarist Tony Iommi have found a replacement for the band's original drummer, Bill Ward, she replied, "You know, I don't know. I honestly, honestly don't know. It's all up in the air. The one thing that is for sure is that SABBATH are in the studio with [producer] Rick Rubin and they are going on tour. That's all I know. And Tony is doing brilliantly well."

[NibRules]

The one thing that is for sure is that SABBATH are in the studio with [producer] Rick Rubin and they are going on tour. That's all I know. And Tony is doing brilliantly well."

Now we just need to know who is the mysterious drummer in the studio? Tommy Clufetos? Starts to sound that Bill is really out for good... and that sucks big time. Anyway it is good to hear that Tony is doing well.

[Charger]

Now we just need to know who is the mysterious drummer in the studio? Tommy Clufetos? Starts to sound that Bill is really out for good... and that sucks big time. Anyway it is good to hear that Tony is doing well.

What mysterious drummer? There was no mention of there being a drummer...I would imagine they're just a 3 piece right now until this gets sorted out one way or another.

[NibRules]

It was rumored that there is a one in the studio... okay, it is rumor but if it is a fact that rest of Black Sabbath have really announced that they will continue without Bill you could imagine that they already have someone on board.

The other three members of SABBATH have already announced that they will move forward without Ward, with Ozzy's solo band drummer Tommy Clufetos rumored to be already in the studio with them.

[Brian F]

First of all, Bill is not a drummer, by his own admission. He is a percussionist. He is not a timekeeper in the mould of (say) Phil Rudd. That is what makes his style so unique and recognisable.

I've never really bought into this "Bill Ward isn't a drummer" argument. He sits behind a drum kit on stage, what else can he be? I take your point about the timekeeping angle. Phil Rudd and Charlie Watts are drummers you can set your watch to, Bill is more free-form and experimental but it's still his job to keep the beat. I've been a huge Bill Ward fan for many years, I avoid making rash statements like "best drummer ever" but he's certainly one of the heavy metal/rock greats and a big influence on many others.

Bill was brilliant on the first two albums, using both thundering rolls and dinky little fills to create a style which at times wasn't all that far away from jazz rock. Later albums required a more conventional approach but his drumming was always inventive and he remained the backbone of the band. Even Heaven & Hell has some great drumming on it and by that time Bill's alcoholism was reaching its peak and he claims he can't even remember recording it.

My one big regret about Bill is that he didn't really get back into the business after conquering his demons and getting sober. Sure, he played on Born Again and tried joining Sabbath one more time in 1984 but most of the 80s seemed to pass him by. Bill was still in his 30s then, a time when his playing should have been at an all-time high. But aside from a brief appearance at live aid (where he looked out of shape), we didn't hear much from him at all. The Ward One solo album was decent enough but his own projects seem to take ages to be released, maybe Bill is a bit of a ditherer. Ozzy and Tony have constantly toured and recorded, Geezer has kept his profile pretty high most of the time. Where was Bill?

I'm glad he came back on board for the reunion shows, well most of them. He played great at the Costa Mesa gig, I seem to recall Ozzy's drummer at the time (Randy Castillo?) saying how impressed he was by Bill's playing. I guess it's tougher for Bill now, 63 years old and long spells away from the stage, can't be easy stepping back into such a demanding role. But most fans just want the chance to see the original line-up one last time and add one final album to our Sabbath collection. It's so sad that it has ended in squabbling, there must be faults n both sides. I hope something can be thrashed out.

Vinny Appice...has anyone given thought to the possibility that he may not want to do it? He and RJD were good friends (as Ronnie once said, "two New York Italians") as well as musical colleagues. He may not want anything to do with anything Sabbath-related since Ronnie is gone.

Maybe not, but Vinnie has always been a jobbing drummer and the Sabbath gig would pay very well and could set him up for the rest of his days. He must be in his mid-50s, not many opportunities like this will come knocking. I would have absolutely no problem with Vinny being in the band, he's played a big role in Sabbath history, but I'd rather it was Bill.

Hell, why not use the two of them?

[Formerly Riffs]

I know my argument is emotional, peppered with some logic, but largely a passionate rant from a disillusioned Sabbath fan. I mean, at what point does it say something about the men involved with this band when you are surprised that someone isn't complaining about getting disrespected or screwed over? I expected this to happen from the SECOND the announcement came and, by god, they didn't confound my expectations. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

This is just a fiasco. Are they really going to release a new album and tour under a cloud of controversy? Really? Thanks guys. Remind me why I ever cared.

I feel your pain, dude. I was curious and mildly interested in the project but to be honest, not because it was the return of "The Real Black Sabbath". The real Black Sabbath, under any logical definition died a while ago. The Black Sabbath name has been used and abused. Over TWO DOZEN members passed by. The real creative fire, the true legendary sparks from the original combination happened almost four decades ago. Since then:

Ozzy Osbourne has become a clown. A kind of circus animal in various corporate sideshows such as TV Reality programs or the craptacular Ozzfest. The man has complete disregard for what he used to stand for and hides behind a "tough wife manager" excuse to sell tickets. As if he had no idea what was going on. Tried to erase two key members of the early Ozzy albums from history by replacing them with session players. Can't really sing or remember lyrics since forever.

Tony Iommi carried the Sabbath name. And for a while, it looked like genuine desire to keep the legacy alive but over time, it just didn't have anything to do with Sabbath. He's my guitar hero but honestly, as far as managing Sabbath and keeping a band spirit, he's been horrible. Iommi just seems incapable of having good lasting creative relationships and disposes of individuals like they mean nothing.

Bill Ward seems like the nicest bloke but his health situation has been a concern for a very long time. He is a mere shadow of the drummer he used to be. I have also grown a little jaded of his propensity to plug the "good old Sabbath days" over and over again. Honestly, it says to me Bill Ward hasn't done anything truly relevant musically since his last Sabbath record in 1983.

Geezer Butler used to be my hero as far as keeping the Sabbath spirit. Unlike Iommi and Ozzy, I always felt Geezer could be really blunt when it came to speaking his mind but that he was sincere. But over time it looks more and more like he is pouting when he doesn't get his way and is notorious for changing his mind. In 1995 on his first solo album he writes a scathing song about Iommi (Giving up the ghost) then moments later jumps on the Sabbath ship for a corporate nostalgia tour.

I am amused when I read over and over again about Sharon ruining Sabbath. Sure, Sharon Osbourne is a horrible and vapid person. But Black Sabbath's worse enemy was always Black Sabbath. Can't blame it all on Ozzy either. There was always in-fighting in Black Sabbath. The numerous breakups with Dio say a lot. The revolving door of musicians.

It's the story of four guys who were awesome and were making a statement against happy-hippie music and the ills of our society and then found fame. And none of the four was really prepared for it. And they are nothing like the four rebellious and wild blokes they were back then. So I knew I was not getting original Sabbath on 11-11-11, whether it's Bill Ward or that numbnut Clufetos behind the kit. But I might like it for what it is, I guess. That's what I did when Heaven and Hell came out.

I think there are few legendary bands who have so actively destroyed their own name and identity. Should have taken a cue off Led Zeppelin.

[Enrico]

I feel your pain, dude. I was curious and mildly interested in the project but to be honest, not because it was the return of "The Real Black Sabbath". The real Black Sabbath, under any logical definition died a while ago. The Black Sabbath name has been used and abused. Over TWO DOZEN members passed by. The real creative fire, the true legendary sparks from the original combination happened almost four decades ago. Since then:

Ozzy Osbourne has become a clown. A kind of circus animal in various corporate sideshows such as TV Reality programs or the craptacular Ozzfest. The man has complete disregard for what he used to stand for and hides behind a "tough wife manager" excuse to sell tickets. As if he had no idea what was going on. Tried to erase two key members of the early Ozzy albums from history by replacing them with session players. Can't really sing or remember lyrics since forever.

Tony Iommi carried the Sabbath name. And for a while, it looked like genuine desire to keep the legacy alive but over time, it just didn't have anything to do with Sabbath. He's my guitar hero but honestly, as far as managing Sabbath and keeping a band spirit, he's been horrible. Iommi just seems incapable of having good lasting creative relationships and disposes of individuals like they mean nothing.

Bill Ward seems like the nicest bloke but his health situation has been a concern for a very long time. He is a mere shadow of the drummer he used to be. I have also grown a little jaded of his propensity to plug the "good old Sabbath days" over and over again. Honestly, it says to me Bill Ward hasn't done anything truly relevant musically since his last Sabbath record in 1983.

Geezer Butler used to be my hero as far as keeping the Sabbath spirit. Unlike Iommi and Ozzy, I always felt Geezer could be really blunt when it came to speaking his mind but that he was sincere. But over time it looks more and more like he is pouting when he doesn't get his way and is notorious for changing his mind. In 1995 on his first solo album he writes a scathing song about Iommi (Giving up the ghost) then moments later jumps on the Sabbath ship for a corporate nostalgia tour.

I am amused when I read over and over again about Sharon ruining Sabbath. Sure, Sharon Osbourne is a horrible and vapid person. But Black Sabbath's worse enemy was always Black Sabbath. Can't blame it all on Ozzy either. There was always in-fighting in Black Sabbath. The numerous breakups with Dio say a lot. The revolving door of musicians.

It's the story of four guys who were awesome and were making a statement against happy-hippie music and the ills of our society and then found fame. And none of the four was really prepared for it. And they are nothing like the four rebellious and wild blokes they were back then. So I knew I was not getting original Sabbath on 11-11-11, whether it's Bill Ward or that numbnut Clufetos behind the kit. But I might like it for what it is, I guess. That's what I did when Heaven and Hell came out.

I think there are few legendary bands who have so actively destroyed their own name and identity. Should have taken a cue off Led Zeppelin.

I agree on everything but the relevance of Bill's solo music.. it sure is good and important, it' s very peculiar and not for everybody, but it's very emotional and creative, much more interesting than what the other three have released as solo artists in the past 20 years.

[Axe fiend]

I feel your pain, dude. I was curious and mildly interested in the project but to be honest, not because it was the return of "The Real Black Sabbath". The real Black Sabbath, under any logical definition died a while ago. The Black Sabbath name has been used and abused. Over TWO DOZEN members passed by. The real creative fire, the true legendary sparks from the original combination happened almost four decades ago. Since then:

Ozzy Osbourne has become a clown. A kind of circus animal in various corporate sideshows such as TV Reality programs or the craptacular Ozzfest. The man has complete disregard for what he used to stand for and hides behind a "tough wife manager" excuse to sell tickets. As if he had no idea what was going on. Tried to erase two key members of the early Ozzy albums from history by replacing them with session players. Can't really sing or remember lyrics since forever.

Tony Iommi carried the Sabbath name. And for a while, it looked like genuine desire to keep the legacy alive but over time, it just didn't have anything to do with Sabbath. He's my guitar hero but honestly, as far as managing Sabbath and keeping a band spirit, he's been horrible. Iommi just seems incapable of having good lasting creative relationships and disposes of individuals like they mean nothing.

Bill Ward seems like the nicest bloke but his health situation has been a concern for a very long time. He is a mere shadow of the drummer he used to be. I have also grown a little jaded of his propensity to plug the "good old Sabbath days" over and over again. Honestly, it says to me Bill Ward hasn't done anything truly relevant musically since his last Sabbath record in 1983.

Geezer Butler used to be my hero as far as keeping the Sabbath spirit. Unlike Iommi and Ozzy, I always felt Geezer could be really blunt when it came to speaking his mind but that he was sincere. But over time it looks more and more like he is pouting when he doesn't get his way and is notorious for changing his mind. In 1995 on his first solo album he writes a scathing song about Iommi (Giving up the ghost) then moments later jumps on the Sabbath ship for a corporate nostalgia tour.

I am amused when I read over and over again about Sharon ruining Sabbath. Sure, Sharon Osbourne is a horrible and vapid person. But Black Sabbath's worse enemy was always Black Sabbath. Can't blame it all on Ozzy either. There was always in-fighting in Black Sabbath. The numerous breakups with Dio say a lot. The revolving door of musicians.

It's the story of four guys who were awesome and were making a statement against happy-hippie music and the ills of our society and then found fame. And none of the four was really prepared for it. And they are nothing like the four rebellious and wild blokes they were back then. So I knew I was not getting original Sabbath on 11-11-11, whether it's Bill Ward or that numbnut Clufetos behind the kit. But I might like it for what it is, I guess. That's what I did when Heaven and Hell came out.

I think there are few legendary bands who have so actively destroyed their own name and identity. Should have taken a cue off Led Zeppelin.

Awesome Post! I think it sums everything up perfectly, Cheers Riffs.

[Sabhuman1978]

I ...In 1995 on his first solo album he writes a scathing song about Iommi (Giving up the ghost) then moments later jumps on the Sabbath ship for a corporate nostalgia tour.

I think that song is more against constant line-up changes around Iommi & Sabbath in 1980's-1990's, not about the original line-up

[TrogDawn]

I agree on everything but the relevance of Bill's solo music.. it sure is good and important, it' s very peculiar and not for everybody, but it's very emotional and creative, much more interesting than what the other three have released as solo artists in the past 20 years.

I agree with this also. Bill's solo work has held my interest longer and I have returned to it more often than any other of the solo efforts of the other 3 (with the possible exception of the first two Ozzy albums).

[mikesline]

[Brian F]

As a fan, it's easy to get emotional about this whole reunion saga. At first I thought to myself "Bill is getting shafted here. How dare they treat him like that! Give him 25%"

But now the dust is starting to settle, I realise that nobody really knows anything about what went on and we can speculate all we want but it doesn't bring us any closer to the truth. Bill went public with his "unsignable contract" rant but never hinted what the stumbling blocks might be. Was it a ploy to get the public on his side and force the others to offer him improved terms? Who knows.

Like other bands who were big in the 70s and are still around in some shape or form, Sabbath are a heritage act these days. Yes, core fans will be excited about the prospect of a new album but the selling point to the general public is that Ozzy is fronting the band and singing the old classics for what may be the last time. We are all hoping Tony can pull through but would he ever be fit to tour again? I think we have to accept the fact that a band is a business. Maybe a unit like ZZ Top who have never changed the line-up are still a democracy and equal split after all these years but Sabbath have been through so many incarnations and reformations, everyone will be looking out for themselves, particularly when 4 separate managers are involved.

Ozzy is the public draw, his presence propels Tony & Geezer to the next level and enables them to earn more money. Bill has been out of the picture for long spells. He has a lot of fans who recognise his contributions to the classic Sabbath material but the cold financial reality is that to many people he really is just the drummer coming back into the fold.

Some people have commented on how Bill leads a relatively simple life. Ozzy must be worth tens of millions, Tony and Geezer are wealthy men. Bill can't be short of a bob or two, provided he still gets royalties from the old albums and songs, I've never heard any evidence to the contrary. I'm assuming that until his departure in 1980 he was a full partner in everything. Of course he has been divorced several times which probably battered him financially.

Hopefully someone will swallow their pride and pave the way for the original band to regroup, but it's looking less and less likely.

[NibRules]

Thanks Brian for brilliant posting, it really gave some new perspective on this issue for me. Most likely it is just like that, for the great public it is all the same who is playing drums (Bill who?), all that matters is that it is a band called Black Sabbath having Ozzy as front man.

[Formerly Riffs]

Like other bands who were big in the 70s and are still around in some shape or form, Sabbath are a heritage act these days. Yes, core fans will be excited about the prospect of a new album but the selling point to the general public is that Ozzy is fronting the band and singing the old classics for what may be the last time. We are all hoping Tony can pull through but would he ever be fit to tour again? I think we have to accept the fact that a band is a business.

Don't get me wrong, I think artists should know how to handle the business side of the equation. But if the business side gets in the way of what someone has to offer me, then I'm not going to be a customer

Luckily, Sabbath's career in their prime is relatively well documented. I have studio and live records. But you are totally right in your analysis and I think a lot of people will buy what they are offering.

[lord71]

As a fan, it's easy to get emotional about this whole reunion saga. At first I thought to myself "Bill is getting shafted here. How dare they treat him like that! Give him 25%"

But now the dust is starting to settle, I realise that nobody really knows anything about what went on and we can speculate all we want but it doesn't bring us any closer to the truth. Bill went public with his "unsignable contract" rant but never hinted what the stumbling blocks might be. Was it a ploy to get the public on his side and force the others to offer him improved terms? Who knows.

Like other bands who were big in the 70s and are still around in some shape or form, Sabbath are a heritage act these days. Yes, core fans will be excited about the prospect of a new album but the selling point to the general public is that Ozzy is fronting the band and singing the old classics for what may be the last time. We are all hoping Tony can pull through but would he ever be fit to tour again? I think we have to accept the fact that a band is a business. Maybe a unit like ZZ Top who have never changed the line-up are still a democracy and equal split after all these years but Sabbath have been through so many incarnations and reformations, everyone will be looking out for themselves, particularly when 4 separate managers are involved.

Ozzy is the public draw, his presence propels Tony & Geezer to the next level and enables them to earn more money. Bill has been out of the picture for long spells. He has a lot of fans who recognise his contributions to the classic Sabbath material but the cold financial reality is that to many people he really is just the drummer coming back into the fold.

Some people have commented on how Bill leads a relatively simple life. Ozzy must be worth tens of millions, Tony and Geezer are wealthy men. Bill can't be short of a bob or two, provided he still gets royalties from the old albums and songs, I've never heard any evidence to the contrary. I'm assuming that until his departure in 1980 he was a full partner in everything. Of course he has been divorced several times which probably battered him financially.

Hopefully someone will swallow their pride and pave the way for the original band to regroup, but it's looking less and less likely.

One important aspect in this is, that they have been advertising this as reunion of ORIGINAL band and NEW ALBUM WITH ORIGINAL MEMBERS since 33 years - "33 years in the making"

SO, if this turns out not to be true, it is hoax and cheating.

IF they would come out and say. "Hey, it's not gonna happen after all. However we are still making the album and going to tour with the 3 original members" - That would be fair to the 'paying customers' and sensible business strategy.

While they have not yet announced that 'Bill is out' and reunion is canceled, I believe that the situation is still recoverable...But for sure, not for long...

[scorpio 2000]

I've never really bought into this "Bill Ward isn't a drummer" argument. He sits behind a drum kit on stage, what else can he be? I take your point about the timekeeping angle. Phil Rudd and Charlie Watts are drummers you can set your watch to, Bill is more free-form and experimental but it's still his job to keep the beat. I've been a huge Bill Ward fan for many years, I avoid making rash statements like "best drummer ever" but he's certainly one of the heavy metal/rock greats and a big influence on many others.

Bill was brilliant on the first two albums, using both thundering rolls and dinky little fills to create a style which at times wasn't all that far away from jazz rock. Later albums required a more conventional approach but his drumming was always inventive and he remained the backbone of the band. Even Heaven & Hell has some great drumming on it and by that time Bill's alcoholism was reaching its peak and he claims he can't even remember recording it.

My one big regret about Bill is that he didn't really get back into the business after conquering his demons and getting sober. Sure, he played on Born Again and tried joining Sabbath one more time in 1984 but most of the 80s seemed to pass him by. Bill was still in his 30s then, a time when his playing should have been at an all-time high. But aside from a brief appearance at live aid (where he looked out of shape), we didn't hear much from him at all. The Ward One solo album was decent enough but his own projects seem to take ages to be released, maybe Bill is a bit of a ditherer. Ozzy and Tony have constantly toured and recorded, Geezer has kept his profile pretty high most of the time. Where was Bill?

I'm glad he came back on board for the reunion shows, well most of them. He played great at the Costa Mesa gig, I seem to recall Ozzy's drummer at the time (Randy Castillo?) saying how impressed he was by Bill's playing. I guess it's tougher for Bill now, 63 years old and long spells away from the stage, can't be easy stepping back into such a demanding role. But most fans just want the chance to see the original line-up one last time and add one final album to our Sabbath collection. It's so sad that it has ended in squabbling, there must be faults n both sides. I hope something can be thrashed out.



Maybe not, but Vinnie has always been a jobbing drummer and the Sabbath gig would pay very well and could set him up for the rest of his days. He must be in his mid-50s, not many opportunities like this will come knocking. I would have absolutely no problem with Vinny being in the band, he's played a big role in Sabbath history, but I'd rather it was Bill.

Hell, why not use the two of them?

Last year i thought maybe they should use 2 drummers on stage. One of the drummers could do a solo, give Tony and Geezer a break, and probably expand the set to 2 hours. Then i thought people might think that was a bad idea. So i kept it to myself.

[mikesline]

Thanks Brian for brilliant posting, it really gave some new perspective on this issue for me. Most likely it is just like that, for the great public it is all the same who is playing drums (Bill who?), all that matters is that it is a band called Black Sabbath having Ozzy as front man.

Are you kidding ? i guess if you were too young to have lived in the days of BLACK SABBATH before a ronnie dio or a tony martin but me i was there and followed the band BLACK SABBATH who had a vocalist named ozzy,ozzy is 1/4 a member of this band if you are missing 1/4 a member it is not BLACK SABBATH ,even if ozzy is fronting the band sorry but ur wrong to say that no matter what if ozzy is there it's all that matters -thats bullshit to me in reality ozzy's input in the band was less than others
his melodys are the greatest input in the sabbath music,most lyrics were geezers but all contributed even spock wall had input on some lyical content.
if ozzy is all that matters to you then ,then you should'nt be at the board cause ozzy alone is not BLACK SABBATH !


here is a couple of pictures i took but in the day.

[NibRules]

Nibrules was talking about the public's perspective.

Yes, that was exactly what I meant. For me it is all four.

edit: ok, maybe the wording was little bit confusing, here is clarified version of the same:

Most likely it is just like that, for the great public it is all the same who is playing drums (Bill who?), all that matters for the great public is that it is a band called Black Sabbath having Ozzy as front man.

[Brian F]

Are you kidding ? i guess if you were too young to have lived in the days of BLACK SABBATH before a ronnie dio or a tony martin but me i was there and followed the band BLACK SABBATH who had a vocalist named ozzy,ozzy is 1/4 a member of this band if you are missing 1/4 a member it is not BLACK SABBATH ,even if ozzy is fronting the band sorry but ur wrong to say that no matter what if ozzy is there it's all that matters -thats bullshit to me in reality ozzy's input in the band was less than others
his melodys are the greatest input in the sabbath music,most lyrics were geezers but all contributed even spock wall had input on some lyical content.

The point of my post was not to imply that Ozzy Osbourne is all that matters. I want to see the original 4 members re-united but we also have to accept that Black Sabbath featuring Ozzy Osbourne is the angle that sells the tickets. Tony needs to be there too but Geezer and Bill are somewhat dispensible in the eyes of the wider concert-going public. I'm not saying that's right, just trying to view both sides of the equation.

It's already widely acknowledged that Ozzy played a minor part in the writing process of the classic material but his personality was a huge part of the band and his wild on-stage antics helped promote the songs to the public. Also, a lot of the early stuff was probably worked up via jamming and you need the right people in the room for that to happen. So, Ozzy is no composer but he contributed to the overall vibe.

Ozzy is now a household name across the globe and to many people Sabbath are his old band. Make no mistake, Ozzy is the key financial player here. That is not palatable to everyone, but it is the stark business reality. Finally, even if someone only cares about Ozzy then I would still welcome them on this board. A fan is a fan.

[KHH]

It's already widely acknowledged that Ozzy played a minor part in the writing process of the classic material...

Really? Most documentaries, most books and interviews says that his impact was huge. Not to make the others contribution any less but that's it just rubbish to say that something like that is "widely acknowledged".

[mds]

Really? Most documentaries, most books and interviews says that his impact was huge. Not to make the others contribution any less but that's it just rubbish to say that something like that is "widely acknowledged".

I believe he is referring to musical content. The bulk of all original Sabbath music was written by Tony and the majority of lyrics by Geezer. Ozzy's main contribution was the vocal melody lines. Not insignificant but certainly not on par with what Tony and Geezer were doing.

[Brian F]

Ozzy delivered the songs brilliantly on stage and on record but he didn't write them. He had an involvement but he could never be described as a principal songwriter for either Sabbath or his solo band. That's not putting him down, his speciality was as a showman and crowd pleaser. Having said that, very few singers are able to deliver Ozzy's material with any conviction and that includes acclaimed metal frontmen like Rob Halford.

[sn0wb1ind0zzy]

Bill has released a statement updating the current state of this situation:

"Dear Sabbath Fans,

I wanted to let you know where things are at, from my point of view, as of today, February 17, 2012.

As my statement of February 2, 2012 indicated, I have not declined to participate in the Sabbath album and tour.
At the earliest opportunity, I am prepared to go to the U.K. and record, and later tour with the band.

Last week, we sent further communication to the attorney handling the negotiations to try to reach an agreement.
At this time we are waiting to hear back. I remain hopeful for a “signable” contract and a positive outcome.

I want to thank everyone who has voiced and posted their opinions, thoughts, support and love through all media,
including the newly constructed sites. I applaud your worldwide reaction in support of the original band. And speaking for myself,
your intent and truth will always be respected.

While believing in your freedom for expression, keep in mind that Tony, Ozzy and Geezer are still my lifetime friends,
and I cannot support comments with an objectifying or derogatory theme toward them or their various representatives.

Many thanks to all of you. You are truly phenomenal.

Stay safe, stay strong.
–Bill Ward"

Source: http://www.billward.com/2012/02/a-message-from-bill/

[Ady]

While believing in your freedom for expression, keep in mind that Tony, Ozzy and Geezer are still my lifetime friends,
and I cannot support comments with an objectifying or derogatory theme toward them or their various representatives.

Couldn't agree more.

[Damian]

Bill has released a statement updating the current state of this situation:

"Dear Sabbath Fans,

I wanted to let you know where things are at, from my point of view, as of today, February 17, 2012.

As my statement of February 2, 2012 indicated, I have not declined to participate in the Sabbath album and tour.
At the earliest opportunity, I am prepared to go to the U.K. and record, and later tour with the band.

Last week, we sent further communication to the attorney handling the negotiations to try to reach an agreement.
At this time we are waiting to hear back. I remain hopeful for a “signable” contract and a positive outcome.

I want to thank everyone who has voiced and posted their opinions, thoughts, support and love through all media,
including the newly constructed sites. I applaud your worldwide reaction in support of the original band. And speaking for myself,
your intent and truth will always be respected.

While believing in your freedom for expression, keep in mind that Tony, Ozzy and Geezer are still my lifetime friends,
and I cannot support comments with an objectifying or derogatory theme toward them or their various representatives.

Many thanks to all of you. You are truly phenomenal.

Stay safe, stay strong.
–Bill Ward"

Source: http://www.billward.com/2012/02/a-message-from-bill/

Nice, but nothing new there. He had a chance to explain what "sign-able" is and just hid behind it again. Black Sabbath is only playing one show in Europe anyway, so at best he would maybe play that one. The rest will be "Ozzy and Friends" with guest musicians. Looks like Tony is sitting those 15 dates out. Hope its just a medical precaution, there.

[RobotOfDecay]

As a side point to the Bill thing, which is obviously the point of this thread, as regards Ozzy's contribution to the Sabbath writing process, it was absolutely essential. C'mon, the vocal melody lines - without those you haven't got a song - and I love the riffs, Geezer's lyrics, Bill's drumming etc. There's obviously a backlash towards the Osbournes' celebrity (which is pretty annoying I grant you) but to say OO wasn't signifcant in the Sab's songwriting is naive in the extreme, and shows that a couple of posters here need to read up a bit more. I recommend Garry Sharpe-Young's "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath: The Battle for Black Sabbath". A lot of the posters here are lifelong Sabbath fans, and know what's what. Or just listen to the first Sabbath album, even if he didn't write the lyrics those vocals are phenomenal (as are the 7 albums after that).

As regards the Bill thing, I hope they work it out. Shame it's come to this, as a true collaboration would've been great. They should just all get together and do it like the first album, in my opinion. I know on the H&H Wacken DVD, Vinnie implied the album would've been better if they'd all done it as a band - not just got riffs, then recorded drums. That's understandable if drummers are pushed for time, but drummers like Vinnie or Bill, who are totally committed to the project, should be there for more of a live-record and be able to be a part of the arranging process. I think they should fire Rubin and get Bob Marlette to do it personally. He did an excellent job on the Iommi records.

[Billy Underdog]

Black Sabbath is only playing one show in Europe anyway, so at best he would maybe play that one. The rest will be "Ozzy and Friends" with guest musicians. Looks like Tony is sitting those 15 dates out. Hope its just a medical precaution, there.

Is this true? Has it been announced? I guess the one show you're referring to is the Download-gig?
From the perspective of Tony's illness it's all good and understandable if they cancel, but if that's the case, they should've gone public with it. A LONG time ago..
As a ticket-owner of one of the other previously announced dates (Oslo 31/5) it would be nice to know if that ticket's still valid or not...

[Charger]

Well I've saying all along that Sabbath will cancel the tour, but it will happen at the last possible moment. Is that fair to the fans...probably not, but that's the way it is.

Everyone needs to remember that cancer is no little thing and the treatments aren't little things either. Thinking that somebody undergoing those treatments would be able to tour for weeks on end is just ridiculous. Health must come first...always. We need to support Tony's fight against the big c not hope that there will be a tour..that is all secondary bullshit.

Then to the topic at hand...I have to agree with Damian that Bill's post is just a bunch of words...really no message there. But it is sad that there needs to be lawyers involved in this...just sad.

[SGfanatic]

If you are limiting yourself to the first six albums, you are missing some of Bill's best work. I defy you to listen to Dirty Women and not find the drumming amazing. The jazz line in Junior's Eyes is superb. But in the end, what others are saying is the truth. Bill plays the drums like a jazz instrument, not a time keeper. It's what gives the songs their feel as much or more than Ton and Geezer.

No not at all, I love all 8 albums, I was just saying that because the bulk of the setlist the band has played since the first reunion comes from the first 6 albums, with Dirty Women and Never Say Die being the exceptions.

For me this is tough because I've liked almost everything Tony has done, even on some of the Tony Martin era material I wasn't in love with, I still always enjoyed just listening to Tony play....he is the reason I play. The material with Glenn Hughes was excellent and like I said I really like The Devil You know, so there isn't a doubt they can make a great album without Bill. Its just nowhere near as exciting without him....even less so with anyone other than Vinny.

When the first reunion came my way, I paid a princely sum to sit in the third row to finally see my favorite band in its original form and it was a highlight of my life. I had already seen Ozzy countless times including with Geezer up close and the Dio and Tony Martin lineups.

So of course I'll but the CD no matter what but I have no desire to see them perform without Bill or Vinny and in fact almost as a protest I would not purchase a ticket.

It also really sucks that this is now overshadowing what was the biggest and most important chapter in this story, which is wishing Tony a healthy victory over his condition.

[HORRORHOLIC]

I think it makes more sense to cancel the tour. It gives Tony a chance to get well and hopefully things will have been worke out with Bill. To be honest, I didn't think they should have toured until the album was released anyway

[Soul Sucker]

From Tony's twitter:

Thanks to all Sabbath fans and Iommi fans. I writting new songs for the new record.

- Tony

[matt]

Bill has released a statement updating the current state of this situation:

"Dear Sabbath Fans,

I wanted to let you know where things are at, from my point of view, as of today, February 17, 2012.

As my statement of February 2, 2012 indicated, I have not declined to participate in the Sabbath album and tour.
At the earliest opportunity, I am prepared to go to the U.K. and record, and later tour with the band.

Last week, we sent further communication to the attorney handling the negotiations to try to reach an agreement.
At this time we are waiting to hear back. I remain hopeful for a “signable” contract and a positive outcome.

I want to thank everyone who has voiced and posted their opinions, thoughts, support and love through all media,
including the newly constructed sites. I applaud your worldwide reaction in support of the original band. And speaking for myself,
your intent and truth will always be respected.

While believing in your freedom for expression, keep in mind that Tony, Ozzy and Geezer are still my lifetime friends,
and I cannot support comments with an objectifying or derogatory theme toward them or their various representatives.

Many thanks to all of you. You are truly phenomenal.

Stay safe, stay strong.
–Bill Ward"

Source: http://www.billward.com/2012/02/a-message-from-bill/

Hmm, nothing there at all or comments about tour dates. I fear Bill's being forgotten with the latest concert date news / Ozzy and friends setup.

If they are his lifetime friends why not give them a call and say "hey you're screwing me over" - I don't buy it that non of the members of Sabbath has any control over what's happening and it's the lawyers making all the decisions. However, I fear Bill's time is running out.

[Sabbathman]

Hmm, nothing there at all or comments about tour dates. I fear Bill's being forgotten with the latest concert date news / Ozzy and friends setup.

If they are his lifetime friends why not give them a call and say "hey you're screwing me over" - I don't buy it that non of the members of Sabbath has any control over what's happening and it's the lawyers making all the decisions. However, I fear Bill's time is running out.

I'm way beyond caring about whether Bill will get his deal or not.

They should have made a full cancellation and announce a new tour Ozzy Osbourne & Friends. At least the Sabbath tickets should be refunded for those who are not interested in this 3rd best thing which is nothing more than a Sabbath tribute/Ozzy Z needs a gig.

[TheElfoid]

Is it possible the tour cancellation increases the odds of reconciliation with Bill? It buys him an extra 2 and a bit weeks more time before the shows (or rather, show) will start. Not much, but right now his time to rejoin the band dwindles by the day. Gives them a bit more time to talk it over.

[HellishBrutality]

Here's how I feel about the Bill Ward fiasco - As great as it would be to have all four original members of Black Sabbath together making a new album and touring, I don't get people bitching about Sabbath not being Sabbath without Ward. It's been pounded into our consciousness that Sabbath is Iommi and whoever joins in for the ride (Fuck, even Tony's solo shit is epic Sabbath brilliance!). Sure, it won't be the official Mk. 1 Black Sabbath, but there's really no problem with getting someone like... let's say... Vinnie Appice to fill in. He filled in for Bill During some of the gigs for the 90's! Not only would Appice do well, but he's an "official" Sabbath member. So we'd have a new line-up with classic faces!

Pardon me if this has been brought up already, but it's been on my mind. I really don't get people's bitching. We go from "You don't need Ozzy for Sabbath" to "Iommi = Sabbath" to "Sabbath isn't Sabbath without the tangy zip of Bill Ward's drum whips". I'ts like, "Make up your fucking mind, already!". Keep in mind, I think Bill Ward coming back would be a bit better, but if things fell through (like they always do with Ozzy-fronted Sabbath, it seems), Appice's got my vote!

[Brian F]

It doesn't look as if the "contract talks" are any further forward. Bill's latest statement contained a lot of hippy-speak about eternal brotherly love but offered us nothing new. Meanwhile the silence in the Sabbath camp is deafening.

The whole thing is sad. Four guys in their 60s squabbling instead of just getting together and doing it.

[Borg]

It doesn't look as if the "contract talks" are any further forward. Bill's latest statement contained a lot of hippy-speak about eternal brotherly love but offered us nothing new. Meanwhile the silence in the Sabbath camp is deafening.

The whole thing is sad. Four guys in their 60s squabbling instead of just getting together and doing it.

Black Sabbath is a Company, just like Iron Maiden, or KISS.

Sure they are friends, but Business and Friendship are separate things for them.

They're not hippies, they run their careers with integrity in regards to the quality of the Musical Product they deliver, but Business is not mixed with friendship.

IMO.

[Formerly Riffs]

I don't get people bitching about Sabbath not being Sabbath without Ward. It's been pounded into our consciousness that Sabbath is Iommi and whoever joins in for the ride (Fuck, even Tony's solo shit is epic Sabbath brilliance!).

LOL

No, it isn't.

Maybe it's been "pounded in your consciousness" but for a majority of people, it takes more than Iommi and some random dudes of the week playing half-assed hard rock to produce a Sabbath record worthy of that name.