The 2012 "Bill Ward's Contract" fiasco

[HellishBrutality]

LOL

No, it isn't.

Maybe it's been "pounded in your consciousness" but for a majority of people, it takes more than Iommi and some random dudes of the week playing half-assed hard rock to produce a Sabbath record worthy of that name.

That's really not what I said at all, but thanks for pretending to understand what I was getting at. It's been said many of times it doesn't matter who's behind the other instruments, Iommi = Sabbath. Unless you're saying everybody else who isn't Ozzy, Gezzer, and Bill are "half-assed hard rock players", which that suck if you believe that.

[Formerly Riffs]

That's really not what I said at all, but thanks for pretending to understand what I was getting at. It's been said many of times it doesn't matter who's behind the other instruments, Iommi = Sabbath. Unless you're saying everybody else who isn't Ozzy, Gezzer, and Bill are "half-assed hard rock players", which that suck if you believe that.

No, I totally get what you said. And it may have been said by *some* people that Iommi=Sabbath but that is far from a universal appraisal of the situation. You're pretending like it's no biggie and you don't get why people are bitching. Here's the deal: Appice and Bill Ward are two very different drummers, they give different results. Maybe you just don't hear that stuff but I do. Maybe you pretend like it doesn't make a difference but it does.

If you enjoy Appice's monotonous drumming, fine. I can respect that. But you're asserting it doesn't really make any difference. It does. I find watching paint dry more exciting than part Vinnie Appice has played in the last quarter of a century. The reason this is disappointing for many is that this isn't just about live shows but the creative process of a new Black Sabbath record.

I don't want to get into an argument on the merits (or lack thereof) of Forbidden, or Seventh Star, or Fused. People will have different tastes. But you're pretending Iommi=Sabbath and that you don't get the bitching, as if everyone out there should feel anything Iommi ever played is interchangeable for everybody. Nope.

[TrogDawn]

I wonder if Phil Collins is available? http://youtu.be/C6PNc9KN50M

[Billy Underdog]

I find watching paint dry more exciting than part Vinnie Appice has played in the last quarter of a century.

Quote of the day!

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

I wonder if Phil Collins is available? http://youtu.be/C6PNc9KN50M

Hah! Well, atleast he's a much better drummer than a vocalist or song-writer...

[HellishBrutality]

No, I totally get what you said. And it may have been said by *some* people that Iommi=Sabbath but that is far from a universal appraisal of the situation. You're pretending like it's no biggie and you don't get why people are bitching. Here's the deal: Appice and Bill Ward are two very different drummers, they give different results. Maybe you just don't hear that stuff but I do. Maybe you pretend like it doesn't make a difference but it does.

If you enjoy Appice's monotonous drumming, fine. I can respect that. But you're asserting it doesn't really make any difference. It does. I find watching paint dry more exciting than part Vinnie Appice has played in the last quarter of a century. The reason this is disappointing for many is that this isn't just about live shows but the creative process of a new Black Sabbath record.

I don't want to get into an argument on the merits (or lack thereof) of Forbidden, or Seventh Star, or Fused. People will have different tastes. But you're pretending Iommi=Sabbath and that you don't get the bitching, as if everyone out there should feel anything Iommi ever played is interchangeable for everybody. Nope.

Cool. I don't care to argue either, about anything we've discussed. It's all subjective in the long run. Whether or not if it's a big deal is up the individual. I'm perfectly aware that Appice's playing is on a different planet than Ward's. Perhaps I should've said this before, but even if they did indeed get Vinnie to play, I'd still have a bit of a disappoint knowing it wasn't Mk. 1 officially. Still, it's not that I'm pretending it doesn't make a difference, or pretending Iommi=Sabbath. To me, Iommi IS Sabbath, and it genuinely does not make a big enough difference for me to get my non-existing undies in a bunch. To others, it does. I don't believe anyone should think the way I think JUST because I think it and am strong in my belief. I'm not concerned about others' tastes, just like you don't have to be concerned with mine. Sure, I might get irritated over people's bitching, but that's just me. Let's just agree to disagree.

And on top of that, let's hope the boys get their shit together. One of the disappointments of not having Bill around would be that he wouldn't be proving to us that heart attacks and weight issues are just two of the things that will get their ass kicked once Bill kicks out the fuckin' jams! We, the listeners, would be the third party getting our asses kicked, and we'd enjoy every second of it! You know you would.

[thematinator]

I wonder if Phil Collins is available? http://youtu.be/C6PNc9KN50M

Wouldn't be bad: http://youtu.be/fuzuWlUeMwo

[Brian F]

We all want Bill back for the chance to see and hear the original band reunited for what might be the last time. Having different rates of pay for band members can breed resentment, especially in a set-up that used to split everything equally. But Sabbath is a business and the guys all have varying service records and standing in the public eye. While Bill not be getting offered what he feels he deserves, I don't think he's being asked to play for minimum wage either. Come on boys, get it sorted out.

I'll now commit heresy and say that I don't believe Bill is the best choice from a musical perspective. I'm a long-time Bill Ward fan and his drumming in the early days was nothing short of incredible but I'm honest enough to admit that he is only a shadow of the drummer he once was. His performance on the 2005 reunion was rather pedestrian. Yes, he did the job but I don't think his drumming generated any sort of excitement and even on mumbers like Warpigs (previously a showcase for Bill), his drum rollls sounded flat and uninspiring. To put it bluntly, I think Bill is past it. Age has caught up with him, plus the fact that he has had long spells away from the business, you can't just step back in and resume playing at this sort of level. You can talk all you like about Bill playing the drums like a jazz instrument and while that description certainly applied between 1970 and 1980, I don't think it fits these days.

It might sound like I'm trying to put Bill down but I'm just being realistic.

[Iconosphere]

http://www.thegauntlet.com/article/5...BATH-Situation

Just as I said from the beginning. Nothing to do with Sharon Osbourne.

[mikesline]

Ok, so who is the greedy one or three who don't want to give bill a piece of the pie?
I HOPE they get this situation corrected before this album is fully recorded ,there is still time to settle a decent contract with bill,i've seen vintage sabb many times live,i can live without bill on tour,(probably)would'nt attend cause without bill,it is a step down .so fuck it, but a NEW ALBUM WITHOUT BILL is not BLACK SABBATH no matter what rick rubin or tony or geezer or ozzy say it is NOT BLACK SABBATH. there is still enough time to straighten it all this bullshit up, for the FANZ.
nice speech-ha mothfuk

ps. i'm fukin glad that she heard the fanz, keep up the RANTZ,this shit has got to be done RIGHT. the way it was said it was gonna be on done on 11-11-11.

[Damian]

http://www.thegauntlet.com/article/5...BATH-Situation

Just as I said from the beginning. Nothing to do with Sharon Osbourne.

Doesn't really prove anything. No idea how reputable the "Russian Black Sabbath" site is. I would think if Rich Rubin has something for the fans to hear, he would bring to Joe before other fan sites. Besides running both Bill Ward's and Geezer Butler's websites, Joe has a good relationship with Ralph Baker and Gloria Butler, essentially half of the management for Black Sabbath. And its been this way for many years now. I can understand the desire on Rubin's and Black Sabbath's part to end the slagging on Sharon, but just reading the statement doesn't exonerate her for the "take-it-or-leave-it" offer that Bill got. All it states is that she had nothing to do with Bill REFUSING to sign. It does NOT clear her of being a part of the creation of the deal to begin with. Remember how complex the last attempt at a reunion got because of all the management intermingling? Well, most of those people are still around. Are we to believe that Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer all turned their backs on their business managers and cooked up Bill's contract by themselves? Why have managers then? If Sharon is too busy with TV Shows and other interests, then why is she still listed as Ozzy's business manager? Sorry, Sharon, you can't have it both ways. And Rich Rubin is essentially a hired gun now, who is currently on the job. Whats he going to do, bite the hand that is currently feeding him?

I don't believe that Sharon is solely responsible for the Bill Ward situation, far from it. Without Bill revealing actual numbers and percentages, we can't even form an opinion on whether he has been offered a fair deal or not. There are still too many unanswered questions and grey areas to pin down who could be at fault, but to say that it has NOTHING to do with Sharon? Based on only that blurb? I don't see it.

What I DO see is that Sharon seems to be upset at the flak she is getting, which is understandable. I think she realizes that its not the fans' fault. She knows the reason for it all is because Bill went to the public with his grievance instead of reaching out discreetly through back channels. Its the kind of sneaky move that, frankly, Sharon and her Dad used to pull when things didn't go their way, so its kind of like trying to beat her at her own game. You can't do that shit to Sharon Osbourne. I can see her making Bill Ward's life pretty miserable if he somehow wins this chess match and rejoins the band.

Hopefully this news clip will spur some more comments from the powers that be and we can finally get some real answers, once and for all!

[mikesline]

damian,i think you are 100% right on with that outlook,the only thing i would want to comment is the way bill had to come out and tell the public,i belive they brought bill to that point-he sounds like a waiting and willing participant to me and wanting to bring this contractual disagreement to an end so he could fly out to england to join the band.
people don't know gloria butler but i know she is tough as nails and equal to sharon in every way ,and she and geezer back in 1997 were very quik to get rid of bill and get on with the show ,i suspect it might be happening again ?? who knows,i might be full of shit,my eyes are brown

[MH1986]

Doesn't really prove anything. No idea how reputable the "Russian Black Sabbath" site is. I would think if Rich Rubin has something for the fans to hear, he would bring to Joe before other fan sites. Besides running both Bill Ward's and Geezer Butler's websites, Joe has a good relationship with Ralph Baker and Gloria Butler, essentially half of the management for Black Sabbath. And its been this way for many years now. I can understand the desire on Rubin's and Black Sabbath's part to end the slagging on Sharon, but just reading the statement doesn't exonerate her for the "take-it-or-leave-it" offer that Bill got. All it states is that she had nothing to do with Bill REFUSING to sign. It does NOT clear her of being a part of the creation of the deal to begin with. Remember how complex the last attempt at a reunion got because of all the management intermingling? Well, most of those people are still around. Are we to believe that Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer all turned their backs on their business managers and cooked up Bill's contract by themselves? Why have managers then? If Sharon is too busy with TV Shows and other interests, then why is she still listed as Ozzy's business manager? Sorry, Sharon, you can't have it both ways. And Rich Rubin is essentially a hired gun now, who is currently on the job. Whats he going to do, bite the hand that is currently feeding him?

I don't believe that Sharon is solely responsible for the Bill Ward situation, far from it. Without Bill revealing actual numbers and percentages, we can't even form an opinion on whether he has been offered a fair deal or not. There are still too many unanswered questions and grey areas to pin down who could be at fault, but to say that it has NOTHING to do with Sharon? Based on only that blurb? I don't see it.

What I DO see is that Sharon seems to be upset at the flak she is getting, which is understandable. I think she realizes that its not the fans' fault. She knows the reason for it all is because Bill went to the public with his grievance instead of reaching out discreetly through back channels. Its the kind of sneaky move that, frankly, Sharon and her Dad used to pull when things didn't go their way, so its kind of like trying to beat her at her own game. You can't do that shit to Sharon Osbourne. I can see her making Bill Ward's life pretty miserable if he somehow wins this chess match and rejoins the band.

Hopefully this news clip will spur some more comments from the powers that be and we can finally get some real answers, once and for all!

This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. It's the way the statement was phrased that makes you go "hmmmmmmm".

[Billy Underdog]

the only thing i would want to comment is the way bill had to come out and tell the public

Didn't he say in his statement he felt ignored? He probably felt going public was the only way to get heard...

[TheElfoid]

I keep saying it - everyone who was ok with the current arrangement is to blame.

Geezer's wife Gloria is one half of Sabbath's management. Sharon decides what Ozzy thinks. Tony is Black Sabbath. The three of them all have a role here. All are equally to blame, because all allowed it to happen.

Now, I'm of the view that Bill deserved ousting - can't handle the road, can't play as well as he could, and from the band's perspective was also demanding in terms of added cost of having him there (additional drummer being hired, the exhaustion of rehearsing with two separate drummers). Especially when you consider the album tour is aiming to be a lengthier one than the reunion one was (presumably, if Tony's treatment goes well, he'll be up for a full tour in 2013). But if you take that out of the equation, and just want to point a finger, no one said "I won't play if Bill doesn't play" or "my husband isn't playing if Bill isn't playing". That's the bottom line.

[Axe fiend]

Here's a weird thought, I wonder if the other three, even like Bill?

[Musicman11]

Well I had hoped we would get some solid news about this whole drummer situation, but it's been a month and it is getting quite frustrating just wondering. Surely to goodness they can say what they've done one way or another, holding back information is just going to make it all the worse when it is finally revealed. I really hope Bill gets at least the chance to play with Sabbath on the album and the Download Festival if nothing else. He seemed genuinely excited about the project and if the Ozzy Sabbath had to play one last time it should be with Bill. I don't care about the Ozzy & Friends dates, but they should at least try to work it out for the one actual date planned (Maybe 2 if we get a US date). But it's the not knowing that's killing me, you would expect after a month we would have some more news on this specific part of the situation....

[celt]

Here's a weird thought, I wonder if the other three, even like Bill?

That's what I have been wondering and alluded to in a post a couple weeks ago on this board. My sense is that the other three guys are trying to push Bill out. Not that they don't like him personally, but that professionally they consider him to be a liability. If Tony and Geezer really wanted him on board, they would make sure he is included. I just don't believe they do want him to participate.

[Borg]

Here's a weird thought, I wonder if the other three, even like Bill?

What would they do if Bill gets a heart attack on the stage while playing?

Think about that.

Bill wants something that is perhaps not safe for himself.

He could play on the studio album, that is safer for him. I don't really think he can tour anymore.

[mikesline]

[QUOTE=Borg;282982]What would they do if Bill gets a heart attack on the stage while playing?

Think about that.

Bill wants something that is perhaps not safe for himself.

He could play on the studio album,

THAT IS THEE GOAL / Having Bill On Album.

[Axe fiend]

What would they do if Bill gets a heart attack on the stage while playing?

Think about that.

No, I'd be willing to bet that since his heart attack (14 years ago?), Bill has taken better care of his health and is probably healthier than most of the people on this board. Shit, the guy walks ten miles a day or something doesn't he? What I'm getting at is, I don't think his health is an issue at all, Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe they just don't like working with the guy plain and simple?

[TheElfoid]

Well I had hoped we would get some solid news about this whole drummer situation, but it's been a month and it is getting quite frustrating just wondering. Surely to goodness they can say what they've done one way or another, holding back information is just going to make it all the worse when it is finally revealed. I really hope Bill gets at least the chance to play with Sabbath on the album and the Download Festival if nothing else. He seemed genuinely excited about the project and if the Ozzy Sabbath had to play one last time it should be with Bill. I don't care about the Ozzy & Friends dates, but they should at least try to work it out for the one actual date planned (Maybe 2 if we get a US date). But it's the not knowing that's killing me, you would expect after a month we would have some more news on this specific part of the situation....

Don't count on it. Tony Iommi's sick, and they're writing/recording a new album. Not many people outside of this site care who the drummer is if it's not Bill Ward. It's classic Sabbath, or it's 3 parts classic Sabbath 1 other dude. Unless we get a modern legend among young metalfans - Joey from Slipknot for example - I doubt anyone is very interested in who it is. I also don't think they are going to be looking with too much earnest until they are done writing/recording the new album. They'll probably hold auditions in March/April, then rehearse in May. They have said Bill Ward's not playing, they just didn't respond to his last message - which is good PR on their part, they need to halt the public banter as it harms their image. Because Bill and the fans have kept it in the press it feels like the issue's not resolved; they made it clear that for now, Bill is out of the band.

[Ochlocracy]

No, I'd be willing to bet that since his heart attack (14 years ago?), Bill has taken better care of his health and is probably healthier than most of the people on this board. Shit, the guy walks ten miles a day or something doesn't he? What I'm getting at is, I don't think his health is an issue at all, Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe they just don't like working with the guy plain and simple?

I've heard about that too. He's in much better shape than he was. He did tour with the band years after the heart attack.

[Borg]

I've heard about that too. He's in much better shape than he was. He did tour with the band years after the heart attack.

I want to think that his health is ok, but his heart is 14 years older now. Drumming for a Heavy Metal Band is a hard job for an old man.

I think maybe Bill is not asking for more money. Maybe he was told he would only play on the studio, maybe his complaint is because he wants to tour too.

"a contract that reflects some dignity and respect toward me as an original member of the band."

Maybe he feels offended because another drummer would be used for the tour.

I haven't read his contract, or his mind, but I think this could be what pissed him off.

[svullo]

Remember that Iommi interview in Birmingham Post
in August
"Iommi said his only concern about the current reformation was the health of drummer Bill Ward who in the past has suffered a heart attack.

‘‘He hasn’t been 100 per cent. He had an operation a few months ago, so we’ll see how he is.’’

http://www.birminghampost.net/life-l...5233-29245508/

[Damian]

Remember that Iommi interview in Birmingham Post
in August
"Iommi said his only concern about the current reformation was the health of drummer Bill Ward who in the past has suffered a heart attack.

‘‘He hasn’t been 100 per cent. He had an operation a few months ago, so we’ll see how he is.’’

http://www.birminghampost.net/life-l...5233-29245508/

Nice pull, svullo! This was the same article that spurned a heated denial of the reformation by Iommi and his manager, but it turned out to be pretty accurate. If he was concerned back in August, maybe he had even greater doubts about what Bill could contribute once the writing/recording got underway. Could be nothing, too, we are all still just speculating, but there is no doubt that Iommi had those concerns months before even the announcement was made. Does anyone know what surgical operation he was referring to?

[scorpio 2000]

We all want Bill back for the chance to see and hear the original band reunited for what might be the last time. Having different rates of pay for band members can breed resentment, especially in a set-up that used to split everything equally. But Sabbath is a business and the guys all have varying service records and standing in the public eye. While Bill not be getting offered what he feels he deserves, I don't think he's being asked to play for minimum wage either. Come on boys, get it sorted out.

I'll now commit heresy and say that I don't believe Bill is the best choice from a musical perspective. I'm a long-time Bill Ward fan and his drumming in the early days was nothing short of incredible but I'm honest enough to admit that he is only a shadow of the drummer he once was. His performance on the 2005 reunion was rather pedestrian. Yes, he did the job but I don't think his drumming generated any sort of excitement and even on mumbers like Warpigs (previously a showcase for Bill), his drum rollls sounded flat and uninspiring. To put it bluntly, I think Bill is past it. Age has caught up with him, plus the fact that he has had long spells away from the business, you can't just step back in and resume playing at this sort of level. You can talk all you like about Bill playing the drums like a jazz instrument and while that description certainly applied between 1970 and 1980, I don't think it fits these days.

It might sound like I'm trying to put Bill down but I'm just being realistic.

You are right on . I agree with everything you just said. Some people on here just dont get that.

[Monster Boy]

No, I'd be willing to bet that since his heart attack (14 years ago?), Bill has taken better care of his health and is probably healthier than most of the people on this board. Shit, the guy walks ten miles a day or something doesn't he? What I'm getting at is, I don't think his health is an issue at all, Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe they just don't like working with the guy plain and simple?

The way Tony wrote about Bill in his autobiography makes me think you're on to something. I don't mean the pranks from the early days, but he sort of paints a picture of somebody who talks too much and tries to make the music too complicated for its own good. That's just a sense I got from the book though, can't think of any specific passages or anything, pure speculation.

[Borg]

The way Tony wrote about Bill in his autobiography makes me think you're on to something. I don't mean the pranks from the early days, but he sort of paints a picture of somebody who talks too much and tries to make the music too complicated for its own good. That's just a sense I got from the book though, can't think of any specific passages or anything, pure speculation.

I think this is not about money, either Bill's health is the reason, or Iommi, Butler & Osbourne have professional doubts about Bill.

Even Bill said, that it is not about the money.

But I don't think it's personal, I think they don't hate each other. Or at least they don't mix whatever personal issues with their careers as musicians.

Hey, these are grown men!

[Brian F]

Bill seems to dither a lot. He talks a good game but his solo albums seem to take ages to appear and involve endless faffing around in the studio. He's had long spells when he never played live. Maybe it's just hard to get things done when he's on the drum stool.

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

Picking up on a couple of recent comments about Bill maybe not being wanted; rock in general and Sabbath in particular have a history of sacking group members, if there's an issue with him not being wanted I think he would already have been formally dismissed.

[Ryan Porter]

Bill seems to dither a lot. He talks a good game but his solo albums seem to take ages to appear and involve endless faffing around in the studio. He's had long spells when he never played live. Maybe it's just hard to get things done when he's on the drum stool.

OR perhaps he's had a family, and has been committed to it since the '90's? He was consistently there every single time Sabbath has reunited, the only active music he's really done. That has been his one single crutch since he was in his 20's ... way to think about the guy's life and what he's been doin' with it as opposed to what you just wanna pre-determinedly judge him for.

[Borg]

OR perhaps he's had a family, and has been committed to it since the '90's? He was consistently there every single time Sabbath has reunited, the only active music he's really done. That has been his one single crutch since he was in his 20's ... way to think about the guy's life and what he's been doin' with it as opposed to what you just wanna pre-determinedly judge him for.

I have read a lot of comments from other fans, and judging by that, Bill seems to be quite a nice guy, a family man.

That's great, but when we listen to the music it doesn't really matter if they are nice guys or not.

What matters to me, as a fan, is the music.

It was nice when Iommi re-recorded the drums for the DEP Sessions, I understand his reasons, but music is music anyway.

If Iommi, Butler, and Osbourne don't want to work with Bill Ward, that must be because of professional reasons, or perhaps they are concerned about his health. They know him longer and better than all of us.

[Formerly Riffs]

Meh. I think you guys are reaching with all these talks about "concerns for health" or "professional reasons" when the truth is staring you right in the face with 40 years of Sabbath history.

The fact is, these four guys have a 4-decade track record of slagging each others, quitting on each others, being fired, suing each others and airing their grievances publicly. God knows what else they may have done privately.

So once again, it's about greed and bruised egos, plain and simple.

We know there is a new Sabbath "world order" since Ozzy took back control of a part of Sabbath. This means everyone is fighting for his due share of the pie, with Geezer and Bill last on the food chain. If it sounds like I am blaming any one of those individuals more than another, I am NOT. Heck, they might even all be well-intentioned.

A lot of musicians liken bands to a marriage. What I'm saying is, sometimes the history of grievances gets in the way of a relationship. So, a couple who divorced after 20 years of cheating and bailing on the kids might decide to get back together after a 5 year hiatus. They might even be changed individuals and great people! But when they come back together, the past history will still be there. She will always remember how he neglected her for work, how he used to drink too much and how he bailed on the kids. He will always remember how she tried to squeeze him for an obscene amount of cash and how she used to get banged by the gardener more often than an army drum.

Sabbath is kinda like that, sadly. Lots of bad history.

[Ryan Porter]

I have read a lot of comments from other fans, and judging by that, Bill seems to be quite a nice guy, a family man.

That's great, but when we listen to the music it doesn't really matter if they are nice guys or not.

What matters to me, as a fan, is the music.

It was nice when Iommi re-recorded the drums for the DEP Sessions, I understand his reasons, but music is music anyway.

If Iommi, Butler, and Osbourne don't want to work with Bill Ward, that must be because of professional reasons, or perhaps they are concerned about his health. They know him longer and better than all of us.

I am of the personal opinion that his last tour stint in '05 was the best performance I've seen him doing live since the '70's. He played with a lot of heart ...

I think he still has a few very good drum fills left in him, if only the Sabbath crew would let him play like he used to. This whole convoluted modern "dumbed down" craze that's been goin' on since my beloved Grunge scene died off needs to stop. The "dumbed down" should never apply to the heroes whose music left an indullible imprint on music and influence throughout the ages. Hell, Kurt Cobain LOVED Sabbath, The Beatles, and Zeppelin.

Don't see why they should change their approach for anyone. Sabbath fans will love what they do, especially if they get rid of this image of "just doom-rock, man".

[Sabbathman]

With or without Bill...I really don't even care THAT much. Sure, it would be great to see and hear Bill for the first time in my life, but we will not see even Tony himself this time...

Little over 2 months until the show...I've pretty much decided to go, it's BLS and then Ozzy & Geezer with friends doing a big arena show...it's kickstarting my summer holiday...it's going to be the last great heavy metal journey of my youth before late June/early July...

So it's basically way ahead until next year with Black Sabbath. We will see how Tony will recover during this year, the treatments and the rehabilitation after the hospital rounds...it's a real shame that Tony can't do this full tour and that he has to go through a sickness like this at this point of his life when things started to roll again...I hope everything goes well and Tony gets back to his normal life first and then, after the new album has been unleashed, will be able to make the final tour...will I manage to get the ticket next time, who knows...

[DiosSword]

I would be very surprised if the reunion thing even happens. It honestly doesn't make a lot of difference to me one way or the other, though I know it does to a lot of people, just as the Heaven and Hell reunion did to me.

My first thought was "Sharon Osbourne" as well. I think that is because she has been a poster child for this kind of devious behaviour in the past. It may be unjust, but unfortunately once you acquire a reputation for a certain kind of conduct, when it happens again it makes you the convenient target at which to point the finger.

As far as them not liking Bill, I've never read anything to indicate that. Just because you may have doubts about someone professionally doesn't mean you don't like them personally. I've never met Bill, but from what I've heard he's one of the nicest guys around.

I think that life, pure and simple, is what threw a spanner into the works for this reunion.

[SDMF Jon]

After reading Tony Iommi's book, it's no surprise to me that Bill is having issues with this reunion. I know he's the nicest, sweetest guy in the world, yadda yadda, but he's still got issues. Bill doesn't like to tour. Bill hates flying. Bill is a perfectionist and takes a long time to learn and/or perfect his parts for songs. These are well-known quirks which could certainly be a major part of why he felt his contract was "unsignable." Everyone immediately assumes it's Sharon & money, but I would bet money that there's more to it. As much as I love Bill's playing, I don't have a problem with him not being a part of this, especially if he's being difficult.

[Ryan Porter]

After reading Tony Iommi's book, it's no surprise to me that Bill is having issues with this reunion. I know he's the nicest, sweetest guy in the world, yadda yadda, but he's still got issues. Bill doesn't like to tour. Bill hates flying. Bill is a perfectionist and takes a long time to learn and/or perfect his parts for songs. These are well-known quirks which could certainly be a major part of why he felt his contract was "unsignable." Everyone immediately assumes it's Sharon & money, but I would bet money that there's more to it. As much as I love Bill's playing, I don't have a problem with him not being a part of this, especially if he's being difficult.

I highly doubt that Bill would demand something about touring and not wanting to do so, considering that's partially what this reunion is all about. I doubt him hating to fly has much to do with it either, really.

As far as being a perfectionist, that could be it. His general playing style, perhaps his overall ability, is likely in question.

[Borg]

I highly doubt that Bill would demand something about touring and not wanting to do so, considering that's partially what this reunion is all about. I doubt him hating to fly has much to do with it either, really.

As far as being a perfectionist, that could be it. His general playing style, perhaps his overall ability, is likely in question.

Have you ever rehearsed or jammed with Bill Ward on your Band?

I haven't, so I don't know if it's difficult to work with him.

If Iommi says that on his book, he must have a reason.

[Old_Papa_Rich]

Sadly, I fear the damage may be done. I am disappointed that Bill is not participating of course. But the real issue for me is, as I mentioned before, I have always believed that Bill's influence is one of the things that gave Sabbath songs that different, exceptional quality. The fact that they are writing and recording without him means that even if he joins eventually, that opportunity will be lost.