The 2012 "Bill Ward's Contract" fiasco

[sabbathcollector]

I really doubt that it's because they just don't want to work with him. If that were the case, he wouldn't have been considered at all. I think they are treating him like the hired help, and he's standing up for once.
Unfortunately for Bill, they really don't need him. A 3/4 reunion will be just as big a success as the full lineup.

[SDMF Jon]

Bill might also be put off (again) if the band hired Vinny or another drummer to wait in the wings like they did for the Last Supper/Reunion tour. Bill managed to do just fine for that tour, but Vinny was along for the ride the whole time, just in case Bill couldn't continue. If that was written into Bill's contract again, he may not want to put up with it this time.

[Ochlocracy]

I think Bill's health and playing has improved since his heart attack:
The Wizard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQ5jhtFypg
Interview about health - http://www.patsyrocks.com/BillWard2.html
I really hope they fix they contract problems they're experiencing and get him back on board for the album.

[TheElfoid]

I highly doubt that Bill would demand something about touring and not wanting to do so, considering that's partially what this reunion is all about. I doubt him hating to fly has much to do with it either, really.

As far as being a perfectionist, that could be it. His general playing style, perhaps his overall ability, is likely in question.

I don't know, it could have been a dispute about the level of touring the band intends to embark on in 2013? Given how long Ozzy's tours are nowadays, and also the ones Tony and Geezer did with H&H, I could see this being longer than any of the 1997-2005 tours, and maybe Bill isn't up to task?

I do agree with the idea that it's probably little quirks, as it's a contract issue. If it was "We don't like Bill", Bill would not have been in the initial announcement - this many years in, they know what he's like. If it was about getting an equal percentage, Bill probably would have said so - that's an argument people would sympathise with, and lobby on his behalf about. If they felt his drumming wasn't up to much, they'd have given up during rehearsals.

It's got to be to do with the fine details of the tour, be it the idea of hiring an additional drummer and making Bill pay to keep him on retainer all tour, or Bill not being up to the long-term requirements.

[MachX]

What more is there to say here? After reading all 12 pages of this thread, and giving it some thought, here is what I would like to say.
Sharon Osbourne nee Arden does not manage Black Sabbath, she only manages her client, Ozzy Osbourne. Her father Don Arden was the manager of the original Black Sabbath. Nowadays, the four members have seperate agents. Sharon has the unfortunate task of managing arguably the biggest name in all of heavy metal, and it's her job to negotiate on behalf of her client. If you bring up names like Brian Epstein or Phil Spectre, or Peter Grant, you will dig into details far more horrific than anything Sharon Osbourne has done. Hell the entire Charles Manson murders were because of record deals. A pregnant actress was murdered because Manson couldn't get a record signing. It's disgusting, but it's the reality of the music industry since its beginning.
That being said, anybody blaming Ozzy, or blaming his manager for this fiasco is being quite naive. The simple fact that Anthony Iommi, Terrance Butler, and Johnathon Osbourne are in a Birmingham studio, while William Ward is still in the US, says something.
I don't know WHAT that says, other than those three have signed a contract that is agreeable, while William Ward feels his contract is not. If you choose to blame the Ozzy camp, or the Iommi camp, since they are most prominent, my question to you is, why is Geezer's contract palatable, while Ward's is not?
The debate that rages is how valuable Ozzy's contribution to the Black Sabbath name is. The whole 'does he write songs, what does he contribute to them' etc, etc. Tony wrote the riff, Ozzy came up with a vocal melody that followed said riff, Geezer would write the lyrics, and Ward would polish it off with his drumlines.
That being said, the end product is a result of the DELIVERY of each member, and that is what made Black Sabbath the immeasurable influence on all that is metal. Black Sabbath, NIB, War Pigs, Iron Man, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Supernaut, Children of the Grave, Symptom of the Universe, aren't the same without Ozzy's voice, Geezer's bass, Bill's drums, or Tony's Guitar.
Like Ozzy or hate him, you can't deny the fact that he makes guitarists into major names. He has an incredible ear for talent like nobody else. I get really tired of the whole 'kerslake/daisley' nonsense. What have those guys done of any prominence since being with Ozzy. Randy Rhodes was nobody before Ozzy. As was Zakk Wylde. I find it rather odd that people like to discredit Ozzy as a talentless hack, meanwhile he seems to mine gold with every album. You really think Sharon writes all those songs? Or that over the past 30 years, Ozzy just gets 'lucky' finding people to write hits for him?
Or for those who say he hasn't 'done anything since Blizzard of Ozz'. Oh really? No More Tears, Mama I'm Coming Home, Perry Mason, Gets Me Through, Not Going Away, I Don't Wanna Stop, Scream, Flying High, Shot in the Dark.
I think he's done plenty since then.
33 years since sabbath, the guy has recorded and toured tirelessly, give the guy some fucking credit already. I'm not trying to fly the ozzy flag vs iommi, geezer, ward, it just drives me nuts when people rip on Ozzy like he's done jack shit over the last three decades.
And that brings me around to what _I_ think is going on, the Ozzy camp believes they deserve top billing, which in terms of marketability, they do. Whether we as fans agree with it or not, is moot. Putting Ozzy's name on there means more money for everybody. Iommi wants his piece as the primary riff writer. Geezer wants his piece to write lyrics. And what is left is a share that Bill Ward feels isn't enough.

[lord71]

What more is there to say here? After reading all 12 pages of this thread, and giving it some thought, here is what I would like to say.
Sharon Osbourne nee Arden does not manage Black Sabbath, she only manages her client, Ozzy Osbourne. Her father Don Arden was the manager of the original Black Sabbath. Nowadays, the four members have seperate agents. Sharon has the unfortunate task of managing arguably the biggest name in all of heavy metal, and it's her job to negotiate on behalf of her client. If you bring up names like Brian Epstein or Phil Spectre, or Peter Grant, you will dig into details far more horrific than anything Sharon Osbourne has done. Hell the entire Charles Manson murders were because of record deals. A pregnant actress was murdered because Manson couldn't get a record signing. It's disgusting, but it's the reality of the music industry since its beginning.
That being said, anybody blaming Ozzy, or blaming his manager for this fiasco is being quite naive. The simple fact that Anthony Iommi, Terrance Butler, and Johnathon Osbourne are in a Birmingham studio, while William Ward is still in the US, says something.
I don't know WHAT that says, other than those three have signed a contract that is agreeable, while William Ward feels his contract is not. If you choose to blame the Ozzy camp, or the Iommi camp, since they are most prominent, my question to you is, why is Geezer's contract palatable, while Ward's is not?
The debate that rages is how valuable Ozzy's contribution to the Black Sabbath name is. The whole 'does he write songs, what does he contribute to them' etc, etc. Tony wrote the riff, Ozzy came up with a vocal melody that followed said riff, Geezer would write the lyrics, and Ward would polish it off with his drumlines.
That being said, the end product is a result of the DELIVERY of each member, and that is what made Black Sabbath the immeasurable influence on all that is metal. Black Sabbath, NIB, War Pigs, Iron Man, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Supernaut, Children of the Grave, Symptom of the Universe, aren't the same without Ozzy's voice, Geezer's bass, Bill's drums, or Tony's Guitar.
Like Ozzy or hate him, you can't deny the fact that he makes guitarists into major names. He has an incredible ear for talent like nobody else. I get really tired of the whole 'kerslake/daisley' nonsense. What have those guys done of any prominence since being with Ozzy. Randy Rhodes was nobody before Ozzy. As was Zakk Wylde. I find it rather odd that people like to discredit Ozzy as a talentless hack, meanwhile he seems to mine gold with every album. You really think Sharon writes all those songs? Or that over the past 30 years, Ozzy just gets 'lucky' finding people to write hits for him?
Or for those who say he hasn't 'done anything since Blizzard of Ozz'. Oh really? No More Tears, Mama I'm Coming Home, Perry Mason, Gets Me Through, Not Going Away, I Don't Wanna Stop, Scream, Flying High, Shot in the Dark.
I think he's done plenty since then.
33 years since sabbath, the guy has recorded and toured tirelessly, give the guy some fucking credit already. I'm not trying to fly the ozzy flag vs iommi, geezer, ward, it just drives me nuts when people rip on Ozzy like he's done jack shit over the last three decades.
And that brings me around to what _I_ think is going on, the Ozzy camp believes they deserve top billing, which in terms of marketability, they do. Whether we as fans agree with it or not, is moot. Putting Ozzy's name on there means more money for everybody. Iommi wants his piece as the primary riff writer. Geezer wants his piece to write lyrics. And what is left is a share that Bill Ward feels isn't enough.

"It's not about the money", that's what Bill has said.

[gunman42782]

"It's not about the money", that's what Bill has said.

I would like to believe that, but the older I get the more I realize, it is ALWAYS about the money.

[Borg]

I would like to believe that, but the older I get the more I realize, it is ALWAYS about the money.

I am thinking that it is not about the money, but if it would be all about the money...

Using the fans to get more money would not speak well about Mr. Ward.

That is, IF it is all about the money because I doubt they offered little money. I really find it hard to believe.

[Brian F]

Quite ironic that the man who has spoken the loudest over the years about the magic of the original line-up is now the one preventing the band's final hurrah.

[Ryan Porter]

Quite ironic that the man who has spoken the loudest over the years about the magic of the original line-up is now the one preventing the band's final hurrah.

That's a bit melodramatic, considering they're still playing and writing, as far as we know, even while Tony is going through cancer.

In all obviousness, his contributions are not of much consequence by the way things sound.

[Fozzy]

Gotta agree MachX

[TheElfoid]

Sigh, a friend of mine was recently complaining about Sharon on twitter, someone asked her about the drummer situation and she said "We can't say anything about it right now" or something along those lines, and he was raging "How dare she say 'we'. She isn't in Black Sabbath. She can't say that. She isn't one of them". Typical anti-Sharon stuff, where just because she's a bitch a lot of the time, everything gets interpreted in the same fashion. Rod Smallwood talks about Iron Maiden, who he manages, in the same way, and no one ever bats an eyelid. Management figures frequently speak like that, because from a business/organisational perspective, they are part of the unit.

I don't know WHAT that says, other than those three have signed a contract that is agreeable, while William Ward feels his contract is not. If you choose to blame the Ozzy camp, or the Iommi camp, since they are most prominent, my question to you is, why is Geezer's contract palatable, while Ward's is not?

I am fairly sure I read that Tony's manager and Geezer's wife form the management team for the band. Presumably that means Gloria Butler helped dictate the terms of Geezer's contract...I'd guess also the amount of time Geezer has spent playing in bands with Tony just means his importance to Tony as a band member is higher - he's only toured a few times without Geezer, ever. That might help to explain it somewhat.

"It's not about the money", that's what Bill has said.

It is almost certainly about the money, but in a different way. Like, say, Bill feels he should be paid equal out of principal rather than a desire to profit. I also think that it's quite likely Bill wasn't being offered the chance at being a partner in the band....Ozzy carries the weight to demand that, and Geezer has an official vote via proxy from his wife's management role, if anything, and it's Tony's band. I can totally see the three of them wanting to operate the band as their unit, if they don't know if they can count on Bill to play reliably - so the band don't have to pay him a percentage of profits for shows he doesn't play, so they don't need to consult him on whether to play a show if he can't perform, reserving the right to change drummers if he spends too long dithering around on album recording, so they can decide if he's not fit to perform without his opinion being worth anything. It makes sense to me why they'd do it, and why he'd be upset.

[chudbeagle]

What more is there to say here? After reading all 12 pages of this thread, and giving it some thought, here is what I would like to say.
Sharon Osbourne nee Arden does not manage Black Sabbath, she only manages her client, Ozzy Osbourne. Her father Don Arden was the manager of the original Black Sabbath. Nowadays, the four members have seperate agents. Sharon has the unfortunate task of managing arguably the biggest name in all of heavy metal, and it's her job to negotiate on behalf of her client. If you bring up names like Brian Epstein or Phil Spectre, or Peter Grant, you will dig into details far more horrific than anything Sharon Osbourne has done. Hell the entire Charles Manson murders were because of record deals. A pregnant actress was murdered because Manson couldn't get a record signing. It's disgusting, but it's the reality of the music industry since its beginning.
That being said, anybody blaming Ozzy, or blaming his manager for this fiasco is being quite naive. The simple fact that Anthony Iommi, Terrance Butler, and Johnathon Osbourne are in a Birmingham studio, while William Ward is still in the US, says something.
I don't know WHAT that says, other than those three have signed a contract that is agreeable, while William Ward feels his contract is not. If you choose to blame the Ozzy camp, or the Iommi camp, since they are most prominent, my question to you is, why is Geezer's contract palatable, while Ward's is not?
The debate that rages is how valuable Ozzy's contribution to the Black Sabbath name is. The whole 'does he write songs, what does he contribute to them' etc, etc. Tony wrote the riff, Ozzy came up with a vocal melody that followed said riff, Geezer would write the lyrics, and Ward would polish it off with his drumlines.
That being said, the end product is a result of the DELIVERY of each member, and that is what made Black Sabbath the immeasurable influence on all that is metal. Black Sabbath, NIB, War Pigs, Iron Man, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Supernaut, Children of the Grave, Symptom of the Universe, aren't the same without Ozzy's voice, Geezer's bass, Bill's drums, or Tony's Guitar.
Like Ozzy or hate him, you can't deny the fact that he makes guitarists into major names. He has an incredible ear for talent like nobody else. I get really tired of the whole 'kerslake/daisley' nonsense. What have those guys done of any prominence since being with Ozzy. Randy Rhodes was nobody before Ozzy. As was Zakk Wylde. I find it rather odd that people like to discredit Ozzy as a talentless hack, meanwhile he seems to mine gold with every album. You really think Sharon writes all those songs? Or that over the past 30 years, Ozzy just gets 'lucky' finding people to write hits for him?
Or for those who say he hasn't 'done anything since Blizzard of Ozz'. Oh really? No More Tears, Mama I'm Coming Home, Perry Mason, Gets Me Through, Not Going Away, I Don't Wanna Stop, Scream, Flying High, Shot in the Dark.
I think he's done plenty since then.
33 years since sabbath, the guy has recorded and toured tirelessly, give the guy some fucking credit already. I'm not trying to fly the ozzy flag vs iommi, geezer, ward, it just drives me nuts when people rip on Ozzy like he's done jack shit over the last three decades.
And that brings me around to what _I_ think is going on, the Ozzy camp believes they deserve top billing, which in terms of marketability, they do. Whether we as fans agree with it or not, is moot. Putting Ozzy's name on there means more money for everybody. Iommi wants his piece as the primary riff writer. Geezer wants his piece to write lyrics. And what is left is a share that Bill Ward feels isn't enough.

What in the hell does Charles Manson have to do with anything? What a bizarre example. Yeah, it was the music biz which led to his sick, insane behavior.
Also, you ask what Kerslake and Daisley did of any consequence since being with Ozzy?
Gee, I dunno how about Bob going on to play with Uriah Heep, Gary Moore, Dio, Yngwie Malmsteen and a little band called Black Sabbath to name a few examples?
And, Lee went back to Uriah Heep from 1981 until he retired in 2007.
I agree with you on Ozzy getting bashed too much (although he really hasn't done any truly quality albums in eons). But I don't agree with you at all about Kerslake and Daisley-and Bob is a damn good lyric writer-just ask Ozzy!

[Iconosphere]

Johnathon Osbourne? I like that. It's wrong, but I like it.

Actually no, I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Heh

[Brian F]

My reaction when I heard about Bill's contract situation was one of indignation. Give the man his 25% I exclaimed loudly. I now realise that was a bit naive and each member will of course look out for himself and has a different commercial value so to speak.

So while Bill might not be getting as big as share as other players, I don't think he will have been offered pauper's wages either. I'm sure Bill would have been handsomely rewarded if he'd taken part in the album and tour and they turned out to be successful. Come on Bill, you're in your 60s, too old to be involved in silly arguments, there's good money on the table, who knows when the next re-union would be, pick up your sticks and get drumming. You always talk about how much you love the Sabs.....well they are waiting for you to join them.

[mikesline]

I like what they said to start the new season about the bill situation and so glad it was said in the most watched forum ever-that metal show 3-31-12

basically said -everybody should get 25% each and get on with it.

"all that really need to be said about it"