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  1. #1
    Baricco's Avatar
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    Default Vinny Appice did not play drums on 'The Devil You Know'. Interview.

    He mentions it on this new interview. And his 'new' project with Viv Campbell.

    One thing was that the last Heaven and Hell album The Devil You Know was written with a friggin’ drum machine. It was all of us in a room with a drum machine. It was stupid. I wanted to go into a rehearsal place and jam and work the shit up loud. That’s the way we did Mob Rules and Dehumanizer but instead, it wound up with us working in Ronnie’s studio with a drum machine. When we recorded The Devil You Know, the band wanted it really simple on the drums so I didn’t play a lot on that album. When the album came out, I got all this feedback like, “Vinny didn’t play shit on the drums” and “The drums are really boring” and shit like that [laughs]. I was like, “Ok, but you guys don’t know the whole story.”
    http://thegreatsouthernbrainfart.com/?p=9497

    http://thegreatsouthernbrainfart.com/?p=9509

    What a surprise, it make sense after all...

  2. #2
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    Wow, it does sort of make sense though. It is some pretty big news for me though. How much you wanna bet the new album is a drum machine too?
    Originally Posted by Monster Boy

    Depends on who is doing the rating. If they agree with me, they've rated it just right.

  3. #3

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    This is big news for me as well. It's actually kind of heartbreaking.

  4. #4
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    Although I think what he's saying is they did all the writing with the drum machine and then he just played the parts on the album exactly how the drum machine played it. In other words, he didn't come up with the drum parts. But still that stinks that he didn't get to express himself on the record.
    Originally Posted by Monster Boy

    Depends on who is doing the rating. If they agree with me, they've rated it just right.

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    Honestly PLR, I'd like to think the same. But for me it's clear. Vinny mentions that he 'didn't play a lot on that album'. So, I think he probably 'filled' some cuts in certain pieces of the songs.

    After reading the interview this evening, I listened some tracks from TDYK album and it's not easy to identify the drum machine. But I remember that I felt a little dissapointed of the monotony of the percusion back in the day, when the album was launched.

    This is not the kind of story I'd liked to listen from one of my all time favorites bands...

    This reminds me when I read that Kiss Alive! was over produced and that Ace Frehley did not played in several of my fav Kiss albums.

    Shit...

  6. #6

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    I thought back to a few songs from TDYK with really crappy drums, and yeah, they definitely sound like a machine. I've never been the biggest fan of Vinny's work, but his playing live and on Mob Rules and Dehumanizer was far better than TDYK. I remember listening to it and thinking 'This is a good song, but God damn the drums suck.' So I guess now we know. Pretty sucky, but it's kinda nice to know that Vinny can still play. I assumed he just lost his touch.
    Last edited by KazolOrajia; 05-10-2012 at 12:11 AM.

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    One thing to consider is that Vinny is trumping up the charges here. Maybe after hearing all the criticisms he is inventing excuses. I don't know why people tend to assign 100% truth value to everything rock stars say. Anyways, that's just a possibility, but something to consider. Everybody lies.

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    I think he's telling the truth, not because I have utmost faith in what he says, but because of the evidence. The drums sound completely artificial when compared to everything else he's done, before and after, and the beats are extremely simple and generic, far more than the kind he usually does. He doesn't seem bitter about it at all, so I don't think he'd lie about it.

  9. #9
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    Maybe this also explains why Vinny is unwilling to join the Ozzy Sabbath reunion?
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    Actually he never says he didn't "play" drums on the album. Ofcourse he plays drum ON the album. This interview gives a wrong impression of that as does the topic title.

    But the songs were written without him using a drum machine.

    That is a real shame though...but it does seem that Tony wants to work like that now. Maybe it's because it's been such a long time since he actually had a band with a drummer recording new stuff...

  11. #11
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    "...the band wanted it really simple on the drums so I didn’t play a lot on that album."

    This is exactly what I've been saying earlier. As a team player, Vinny has always DELIVERED WHAT'S BEEN ASKED FROM HIM. This time they asked just him to play some basic beats. (quoting myself)

    So, as it turned out, it was not Vinny playing with his full capability on "The Devil You Know". People really should look into things before they slam anybody.
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    Of course he played drums on the album. As has been suggested, you have to watch that what he said isn't taken out of context. The fact that he has also said he used Cozy Powell's bass drum cos they were having trouble getting a good bass drum sound, suggests he DID actually play.

  13. #13
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    have you seen any of the concerts? Vinny was awesome! So either he played very little in the album or played to the drums machine tune, which would only make sense to ge t amore "real" sound, which nowadays is probably not a huge problem.

  14. #14
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    There's two ways to take the "I didn't play a lot on that album" quote. 1) Most of the recording is a drum machine, or 2) He didn't play "a lot", meaning he played on the albumm, but he had to play really simple and basically played what was written on a drum machine. Either way, it's disappointing to hear


    Quote Originally Posted by LouiST View Post
    Maybe this also explains why Vinny is unwilling to join the Ozzy Sabbath reunion?
    I wonder if this is part of Bill's gripe with the band. Perhaps one of the conditions of his contract was that they'd record with a drum machine or basically want Bill to copy parts they wrote on a drum machine.

  15. #15
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    I don't understand his motivation to reveal such details as the fans hate it, especially right now with all these rumors about the future of Black Sabbath .... I 've never been a fan of this guy, although he is a very good musician
    We all know that technical advances can achieve all that we want now, but for the dreams that we all want to keep , it is desirable not knowing certain things.
    Appice is very clumsy with his words.
    In conclusion , if it won't Bill , I would rather see Lombardo behind the drums or Mc Brain/Hoglan/Dunbar/Barker/Paice/Aldridge/Rondinelli

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingChrist View Post
    There's two ways to take the "I didn't play a lot on that album" quote. 1) Most of the recording is a drum machine, or 2) He didn't play "a lot", meaning he played on the album, but he had to play really simple and basically played what was written on a drum machine. Either way, it's disappointing to hear
    I wonder if this is part of Bill's gripe with the band. Perhaps one of the conditions of his contract was that they'd record with a drum machine or basically want Bill to copy parts they wrote on a drum machine.
    I believe # 2 was what he was getting at.
    I agree with Vinny in that, I think it was a stupid way of going about working up the record. I'll bet that, That's a big reason why Bill got out of dodge during the Dio Years album.
    Personally, I love drum machines and all that shit, I can lay out exactly what I want for my little projects, but come on, If you have a drummer of Vinny or Bill's calibre in your band, let them do what they do best, Express themselves creatively through their instrument. "Oh, no sorry Vin, we have all your drum fills mapped out for you the way we want you to play em"! I think That's Bullshit!! I would have told them to go fuck themselves (maybe that's exactly what Bill did). Gonna check out that Kill Devil Hill, I'll bet it's awesome.
    Last edited by Axe fiend; 05-10-2012 at 12:13 PM.
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  17. #17
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    A metal band using a drum machine, how sick is this?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingChrist View Post
    I wonder if this is part of Bill's gripe with the band. Perhaps one of the conditions of his contract was that they'd record with a drum machine or basically want Bill to copy parts they wrote on a drum machine.
    Didn't notice this but it is possible if Ozzy does things like Dio or Tony dictates the idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingChrist View Post
    I wonder if this is part of Bill's gripe with the band. Perhaps one of the conditions of his contract was that they'd record with a drum machine or basically want Bill to copy parts they wrote on a drum machine.
    That would actually make a lot of sense. I hope they don't end up using simple programmed beats, played by a real drummer or otherwise.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingChrist View Post
    There's two ways to take the "I didn't play a lot on that album" quote. 1) Most of the recording is a drum machine, or 2) He didn't play "a lot", meaning he played on the albumm, but he had to play really simple and basically played what was written on a drum machine. Either way, it's disappointing to hear.
    You're right with your interpretations.

    What I'm hearing on the album is Vinny playing the whole of it, but obviously he was brought in and asked to play only the simple patterns that were first written with a drum machine. He didn't participate in writing the drum patterns, he just played what was asked from him. The situation was obviously different 20 and 30 years ago, back then Vinny was obviously asked to work out the drum patterns with the rest of the band but this time he was just given the drum machine tracks to be played as they were.

    Regardless of this drum machine issue...

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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbathman View Post
    You're right with your interpretations.

    What I'm hearing on the album is Vinny playing the whole of it, but obviously he was brought in and asked to play only the simple patterns that were first written with a drum machine. He didn't participate in writing the drum patterns, he just played what was asked from him. The situation was obviously different 20 and 30 years ago, back then Vinny was obviously asked to work out the drum patterns with the rest of the band but this time he was just given the drum machine tracks to be played as they were.

    Regardless of this drum machine issue...

    VINNY APPICE: RONNIE JAMES DIO 'Was Like A Father Figure To Me' - May 10, 2012

    http://legacy.roadrunnerrecords.com/...sitemID=173821
    Nice interview and a class act. Clearly the Sabbath gig would be a great payday but Vinny seems genuinly fired up about Kill Devil Hill and from the songs I've heard so far I can understand why.

  22. #22
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    Hmmmm.... Well I guess I better take back some of the things I've said about Vinny regarding his drumming. My biggest disappointment with The Devil You Know was the drumming, so I have often said ill of Vinny because of that. Now hearing this, it makes a lot of sense. The drumming on the the album was mundane and boring, some of the most basic drumming I've ever heard on a metal album. So I take back SOME of the bad things I've said about Vinny. I still don't think he's all that great of a drummer. The Mob Rules and Dehumanizer don't exactly stand out in the drumming department either for me at least. I have went a long time thinking that Vinny had begun to decline in his drumming ability due to this album though, so it is going to be interesting to see how King Devil Hill turns out. He might actually surprise me with this new project of his.

    Regardless of my opinion on Vinny though, it does concern me that this happened as it did. I always thought that Dio wanted a solid drummer working on projects that he was involved in. I know on the last Dio albums and tours Simon Wright was pretty much the only constant, and Vinny before that for the most part, so I always figured he would hate the idea of a drum machine. Maybe it had to do with how Vinny left Dio to play on Sabbath's tour? I don't really know, and it certainly doesn't afford any hope towards the current situation with Bill either. To me it just doesn't seem right that 3 of the most respected men in metal would write with a drum machine instead of the well known and somewhat respected drummer they had.

  23. #23
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    Tommy doesn't usually dress like that. Definitely fits in with the Sabbath "look"

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Sucker View Post
    Tommy doesn't usually dress like that. Definitely fits in with the Sabbath "look"
    Slash normally wears a top-hat, not a cap. Maybe he's the new drummer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Slash normally wears a top-hat, not a cap. Maybe he's the new drummer?
    Slash often wears caps.

    I'm not saying that new clothes = new Sabbath drummer. But if Tommy is the new drummer, this is a better look than his usual biker style.

  26. #26

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    How moron can one be making a thread announcing "Vinny didn´t play on TDKY album" Bloody hell!!! On Black-sabbath.com ????
    Of course he plays on it, if you can´t hear it, at least don´t make these kind announcements.

    These days song writers utilise drum machines and computer programs more and more in the writing stages of the songs, as we now know was the case in the writing sessions for TDKY.

    Then the drummer will be handed a demo recording with for example guitar parts, vocals or (what ever that can be recorded in homestudio or computer) accompanied with drum machine to learn the songs, instead of working it out in the loud environment of the band rehearsals collectively.In this kind of scenario it´s a lot more difficult for a drummer to come up with suggestions in arrangement or structures of the song, when it´s been already put together by for example guitar player. The end result can easily be less of an band effort, and and sadly lacking some spirit. I know it also from my own experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Sucker View Post
    Slash often wears caps.
    I know, just having a go..
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    Zakk Wylde, 45, looks like 65. Hope he feels like 55 at the most.
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    I found this:
    http://youtu.be/wrY61zHK21s

    And it got me thinking how Vinny must have been bored out of his fucking mind playing on TDYK. You can literally hear the unreleased tension on that album.

  30. #30
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    I find it interesting that Vinnie would talk about his performance on TDYK now instead of when it first came out. My theory is that its because they are recording and touring with an unknown drummer and the boys didnt even call him up to see if he was interested or not. They were like ,Bill cant do it? Oh well , lets find another drummer. He found out through the press like everyone else. I think he is alittle pissed about it and i dont blame him. It is disrespectful. A 32 year off and on working relationship and friendship means nothing to these guys. You mean to tell me that if Sabbath called him up, he wouldnt drop every thing to play on what might possibly be their last album and tour, your crazy. Not to mention the money he would have made if they tour. I think he did it as an f- you to the guys.
    Last edited by scorpio 2000; 05-14-2012 at 03:00 PM.

  31. #31
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    It is Vinny playing, no doubt about it, it has his normal fills all over it. When he says he did not "play" a lot on the CD, he means he did not have the freedom to do what he wanted. If we all remeber that is why Bill left Heaven and Hell. Tony wanted him to be a back beat drummer, and Bill did not, would not do that. If anyone questions Vinny and his playing abilities, I invite you to listen to the new Kill Devil Hill record. He is very good on this CD. This is his band, and he has the freedom to "play" on this CD.
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  32. #32
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    Vinny definitely played on the album, he was just held back. Heck, you can hear a major difference between the studio and live version of Fear as an example of this.
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    Hate to think that my favorite band would write music in this manner. Writing with a drum machine and then telling your drummer to copy what they came up with using the machine, ridiculous. Not a fan of Vinny's work myself, but still, at least let the guy be involved in the writing process for his drum parts. The drums is basically the only thing lacking on TDYK.
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  34. #34
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    I asked Geezer about this awhile back - forgot to reply. He said it's BS, many albums are written that way initially. Said something about this being no different than anything else. The assertion that Vinny is not on the album is ludicrous.
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    Which is something everyone should have known to begin with.

    Nice of Geezer to take the time and reply on such a trivial and ludicrous topic to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Siegler View Post
    I asked Geezer about this awhile back - forgot to reply. He said it's BS, many albums are written that way initially. Said something about this being no different than anything else. The assertion that Vinny is not on the album is ludicrous.
    Of course he played on it, you don't hire a drummer like Vinny Appice to just sit there and do nothing. Tony and Geezer only get together with the band these days to tour and/or record it seems. When they recorded The Devil You Know they said that they made a demo cd of each of their ideas and that made the writing process go much smoother.

    I know when I'm just coming up with an idea for a riff I just turn a drum loop on and play it till I like what I'm hearing. I'd imagine thats pretty commonplace. Its not entirely feasible to get together with a live drummer every time you want to write something.
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  37. #37

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    I think this is what Bill's problem was with TDYK. It looks like he was being asked to replicate a drum machine, and he can't work that way:

    "I was uncomfortable with some of the things surrounding that particular project. So, that was it. And I moved out. I thought Vinny [Appice, former SABBATH and current HEAVEN & HELL drummer] would be a much better choice [for HEAVEN & HELL], because Vinny is able to do those kinds of things... he's able to accomodate the kinds of things the kind of things that were being asked, and I'm not. I react. I'm a reactionary drummer, and Vinny plays drums; there's a big difference between us."

  38. #38
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    Drum machines are becoming ever more popular for the writing process. Drummers with something to contribute are no longer required and I think this is something that's negatively affected modern music. The feel is gone and it's all more "precise" which is totally anti-rock & roll in my book.

    Vinny is a much more disciplined drummer than Bill but I'm sure he hates the limitations brought on by the drum machines. He sounds "looser" on Kill Devil Hill than TDYK and also far more enthusiastic (if that can be heard in his playing).

    I also think that what Vin meant on that interview was that his parts where already in place by the time he came in and all he did was copy what they had programmed. I'm sure he got away with a few things here and there but it sounds like he was restricted in the studio which he seems a little bitter about.

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    we know Vinny did play drums on TDYK 'cos Tony played a practical joke on him after one of his recording sessions - it's on the bonus DVD

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    I asked Geezer about this awhile back - forgot to reply. He said it's BS, many albums are written that way initially. Said something about this being no different than anything else. The assertion that Vinny is not on the album is ludicrous.
    It has been standard practise since drum machines were first invented in the early '80s. Well, maybe not standard, but commonplace.

    A lot of music gets written on guitars by bands, or sometimes basses. Anyone who can play either can basically write a simple rock or metal song. The problem is you require a drum beat to set the rhythm and pace for the song as you trial it.

    Most bands, drummers don't study melody or riffs, as their role is to play the drums, they play a rhythm not a lead part. This means the drummer himself is not essential to a creative process of writing/gestating a song, his contribution is performance, which is captured on the album.

    A drum machine allows someone to muck about with a song when the drummer's not there, its more patient than a drummer, and if you just want something to do the role of simple timekeeping, its fine. A drummer can later, when performing on the recording, add in all of their standard fills and unique tricks.

    On the topic of drum machines though, they've improved a lot in recent years. Listen to Sixx: A.M.'s first album, The Heroin Diaries Soundtrack. Almost all those songs were done on a drum machine but it sounds great.
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