Dio was nowhere near the first one to use the devil-horns in rock music

[Billy Underdog]

Coven: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coven_(band)

They are recognized as being the band that first introduced the "Sign of the Horns" to rock and pop culture (as seen on their 1969 debut album release Witchcraft)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Horns
This article mentions Paul McCartney raising the sign above Lennon's head in the Sgt. Peppers-album. (Which most people agree is a coincident, including myself)

It also mentions both Blackie Lawless and Gene Simmons doing it in the late 70's

and most important:

Terry "Geezer" Butler of Black Sabbath can be seen "raising the horns" in a photograph taken in 1971

(i know i've seen that pic somewhere, but couldn't find it now)

Can we now all agree that Dio no longer should get credit for "inventing" the use of the horns in rock & metal?

Edit: It was ofcourse Lennon doing it over McCartney's head, not the other way around. (Which again is one of the "proofs" in the whole "Paul Is Dead"-mythos)

[Iconosphere]

This one? lol

http://metaldelirium.net/wp-content/...ck-sabbath.jpg

[Billy Underdog]

This one? lol

http://metaldelirium.net/wp-content/...ck-sabbath.jpg

I doubt that was taken in '71, but i appreciate the effort

[Iconosphere]

But seriously https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

[Billy Underdog]

But seriously https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

It's not the one i've seen, but it's without a doubt from the 70's...

---------- Post added at 03:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 AM ----------

Geezer was too bright to take all that shit seriously, hence the tongue in cheek pic. It's just the average metal fan that goes ... wooohooo it's so cool, metal is my religion :devilshorns: :devilhorses" fuck yeah!!!!! You see all the young bands today they're dressed exactly the same, black shirts, black cargo shorts or whatever it is and compete solely on time changes and maximum beats per minute.

666. Bang that head that doesn't bang! Death to posers! and all that shit...

Btw, Geezer was heavily into occult stuff in the early 70's, and i don't think you're the one to judge how serious or not he took it.

You really don't like metal, do you? Or even good music in general? Makes me wonder what you're doing on this forum... Go join a Duran Duran-forum instead.

---------- Post added at 03:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 AM ----------

and compete solely on time changes and maximum beats per minute.

But i do agree there's way too much blastbeats. Seems like noone's able to use double bass-drums the cool way Keith Moon did anymore. Nothing wrong with time-changes though...

[nunoni]

errr.... stupid thread. Dio himself never said he invented it, quite the opposite, he said it is a traditional italian sign to ward off the evil eye, that he leard from his grandmother or something. And I think there are records of this from before Christ. If some people are stupid enough to make stories about Dio inventing a sign that is thousands of years old, it's their problem. He was not that old! So no need to deny something that has never been claimed by anyone with any knowledge...

In any case, Dio is the responsible for making it popular and widely known in rock. That's about the only claim someone can do I think, but still I can't remember RJD caiming it himself.

[Billy Underdog]

In any case, Dio is the responsible for making it popular and widely known in rock. That's about the only claim someone can do I think, but still I can't remember RJD caiming it himself.

He has claimed he was the first to do it in a rock/metal-context (hence the thread-name). He also bitched about Gene Simmons claiming to do it before him.

---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 AM ----------

(i know i've seen that pic somewhere, but couldn't find it now)

The photograph is included in the CD booklet of the Symptom of the Universe: The Original Black Sabbath 1970–1978 compilation album

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 AM ----------

He has claimed he was the first to do it in a rock/metal-context (hence the thread-name). He also bitched about Gene Simmons claiming to do it before him

Quote from the wiki-page:

R.J. Dio – "I doubt very much if I would be the first one who ever did that. That's like saying I invented the wheel, I'm sure someone did that at some other point. I think you'd have to say that I made it fashionable. I used it so much and all the time and it had become my trademark until the Britney Spears audience decided to do it as well. So it kind of lost its meaning with that(....)So I became very noted for it and then everybody else started to pick up on it and away it went. But I would never say I take credit for being the first to do it. I say because I did it so much that it became the symbol of rock and roll of some kind."

Seems like he has a hard time deciding if he did or not.

[Soul Sucker]

It's just the average metal fan that goes ... wooohooo it's so cool, metal is my religion :devilshorns: :devilhorses" fuck yeah!!!!! You see all the young bands today they're dressed exactly the same, black shirts, black cargo shorts or whatever it is and compete solely on time changes and maximum beats per minute.

+1

You really don't like metal, do you? Or even good music in general? Makes me wonder what you're doing on this forum... Go join a Duran Duran-forum instead.

You're one to talk, considering you dislike 11 Black Sabbath albums... What are you doing here???

[Billy Underdog]

You're one to talk, considering you dislike 11 Black Sabbath albums... What are you doing here???

As i've said before; though i don't like the music of those albums (any more), i'm still a great Sab-nerd interested in all things Sabbath. Though i don't often comment on things on this part or the T. Martin-part of the forum (couse it probably would've been mostly negative anyway), i always (well, mostly) read them. A thread i've been following lately is the very interesting thread about Viv Campbell doing the "Dio"-reunion.

My interest in music/bands goes way beyond the music itself, i'm also a rock history-nerd, and i'm interested in the general attitude of band-members...

Ron Paul has expressed way more negativity about almost anything than i've ever done (exept from maybe when i first joined the forum).

Btw, there's only 10 albums i dislike, not counting live-albums, but counting H&H' TDYK (which i against better judgement consider a Sab-album). I've never expressed any dislike against Born Again.

Was that reasons enough for letting me be a part of this forum? I didn't know one had to love Dio and T. Martin to be considered a Sab-fan. Sorry...


Edit: And may i say yet again; No, i'm not really a big fan of Ozzy solo, so there's no use in me joining any Ozzy-forum...

[Soul Sucker]

I was only kidding... I didn't intend to offend you.

[Billy Underdog]

I was only kidding... I didn't intend to offend you.

I know, wasn't really offended.

It's just that i'm sick & tired of many somehow actually consider us "Ozzy-only"-guys to be less Sab-fans. I could say that anyone who accept any albums from mid 80's till mid 90's are less fans, but i don't want to sink to that level.
And i'm sick & tired that any negative things said about Dio is almost considered trolling, while bashing Ozzy left and right seems to be the dogma for many.
Lastly, i'm sick & tired of always having to defend why i feel the way i feel.

(None of this was directed towards you, it's just that it seem to be the general consensus)

Anyway... Peace & Love Lets all just love Sabbath together regardless of what era one might prefer or not...

[Charger]

First of all like Nunoni said Ronnie has never EVER claimed he invented the horns or that he was the first to use them....

He just made them very popular in the 80s...up to the point where they became synonymous with metal.

[Billy Underdog]

First of all like Nunoni said Ronnie has never EVER claimed he invented the horns or that he was the first to use them....

He just made them very popular in the 80s...up to the point where they became synonymous with metal.

And second?

Belive me if you will, or not, but i know i've heard him saying he was the first to use them (in rock/metal), sad thing is i don't remember where or when so i can prove it, but it was in a context where Gene Simmons were credited for doing it first. And if we're to belive that wiki-article, Simmons actually did it before him (though not the first to do it (in rock/metal))

[Sabbathman]

Can we now all agree that Dio no longer should get credit for "inventing" the use of the horns in rock & metal?

There's nothing to agree about. Dio didn't invent the symbol nor did he invent the use of it in rock & metal. Dio didn't even claim to have done so. He just made it popular, he used it as an integral part of his performance, as an enhancement of the lyrics and the music. He's told the story countless times as to how he first learned about the symbol from his grandmother when he was a child. He decided to use the symbol as a part of his music, he made it what it is today. I consider Dio to be the prime reason as to why people use it all around the world, not Lennon, not Simmons, not anyone else. And whoever did it first and wherever they did it, it's a common thing to link the symbol with Dio, not someone else. Lennon is known for certain things like the toilet shot with Yoko (I know, this was a cheap shot, but it's true, even I know it even though I'm not a Beatles fan). Simmons is known for certain things like his trademark face paint (he even sued King Diamond even though King Diamond's face paint configuration was totally different), long tongue and endless hunger for business opportunities even during family vacations. Dio is known for his voice, excellent music made with 4 classic bands and this very symbol that he used for so long.

The symbol is part of Dio's legacy and the whole metal world. So please, don't try to diminish it on the eve of May 16th, the 2nd anniversary of Dio's passing.

I'll leave this thread with this picture:

[Charger]

And second?

Belive me if you will, or not, but i know i've heard him saying he was the first to use them (in rock/metal), sad thing is i don't remember where or when so i can prove it, but it was in a context where Gene Simmons were credited for doing it first. And if we're to belive that wiki-article, Simmons actually did it before him (though not the first to do it (in rock/metal))

Hahah...it seems that I made all the point I needed with the "first"...

I have never heard Ronnie saying that he was first to use it and I've heard/read alot of interviews. I think you might be confusing it with who made it popular first... And that was Ronnie there is no question about that.

[Billy Underdog]

Dio didn't invent the symbol

There's a reason i used those quotation marks.

nor did he invent the use of it in rock & metal.

See my last post...

---------- Post added at 07:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------

I have never heard Ronnie saying that he was first to use it and I've heard/read alot of interviews. I think you might be confusing it with who made it popular first... And that was Ronnie there is no question about that.

I understand you don't belive me when i'm saying that, and honestly i don't care. I know what i've heard.
But ofcourse, i should have known that trying to convince any of you that your almighty god wasn't perfect was futile...

Sorry this happened the day before the 2nd anniversary of his death, i really didn't mean to disrespect him as such.

[nunoni]

Quote from the wiki-page:
R.J. Dio – "I doubt very much if I would be the first one who ever did that. That's like saying I invented the wheel, I'm sure someone did that at some other point. I think you'd have to say that I made it fashionable. I used it so much and all the time and it had become my trademark until the Britney Spears audience decided to do it as well. So it kind of lost its meaning with that(....)So I became very noted for it and then everybody else started to pick up on it and away it went. But I would never say I take credit for being the first to do it. I say because I did it so much that it became the symbol of rock and roll of some kind."

Seems like he has a hard time deciding if he did or not.

So, in one sentence he says three times he didn't invent it... seems he had a pretty clear mind about it!

[Billy Underdog]

So, in one sentence he says three times he didn't invent it... seems he had a pretty clear mind about it!

In that quote, yes. Other times he's said the exact opposite. Which is why i in an earlier post said:

Seems like he has a hard time deciding if he did or not.

and:

He also bitched about Gene Simmons claiming to do it before him.

But since the Oh So Holy Diver can do no wrong in your eyes, i understand i'm practically talking to deaf ears here...

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

I know this will probably mean nothing to you, but i seem to remember even Ozzy in his book quoting Dio claiming to be the first to do it. (That's where he also mention a pic of Geezer doing it)
And i see no reason for Ozzy to make that up...

[nunoni]

Ozzy, of course, is the greatest source of first hand information about Dio. I mean, they were practically like brothers living together or something.

Dio not once, but several times told the story about the horns being an old Italian sign warding off the "evil eye". He was always very clear about that. If you know Italian and like Wikipedia, read this

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malocchio
"Contro il malocchio ...o in Italia si usa fare le corna con le dita della mano"
which means
"Against the Evil Eye in Italy it is use to make the horns with the hand"

If you prefer to see an image, here you have one
http://scampaniando.blogspot.pt/2012...malocchio.html

This is where Dio got it from, in his words, said very often in many interviews. End of story, sweetie.

[Iconosphere]

To be fair, I don't think 'Billy Underdog' is saying that he DIDN'T say that RJD DIDN'T say that he didn't invent it. But that he DID say that he DIDN'T DID DO that he DIDN'T NOT say it. I on the other hand say that he DIDN'T say that he DID say that he DOESN'T NOT say it that he DID.

[Billy Underdog]

Ozzy, of course, is the greatest source of first hand information about Dio. I mean, they were practically like brothers living together or something.

Dio not once, but several times told the story about the horns being an old Italian sign warding off the "evil eye". He was always very clear about that. If you know Italian and like Wikipedia, read this

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malocchio
"Contro il malocchio ...o in Italia si usa fare le corna con le dita della mano"
which means
"Against the Evil Eye in Italy it is use to make the horns with the hand"

If you prefer to see an image, here you have one
http://scampaniando.blogspot.pt/2012...malocchio.html

This is where Dio got it from, in his words, said very often in many interviews. End of story, sweetie.

I know it's an old catholic sign, maybe even older than christianity. That's not what this thread is about. Never said Dio claimed to invent it, i've heard him telling the story about his grand-mother a thousand times.

What this thread is about is Dio's claim that he was the first one to use it in a rock-context. Which he also has claimed he was not...
Conclution: seems like the guy has a hard time making up his mind as for what he did or didn't do. If you'd cared to read the whole thread i would'nt have to repeat myself all the time.

Darling.

As for Ozzy, no ofcourse someone who's not Dio can never have anything valid to say...


---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 AM ----------

To be fair, I don't think 'Billy Underdog' is saying that he DIDN'T say that RJD DIDN'T say that he didn't invent it. But that he DID say that he DIDN'T DID DO that he DIDN'T NOT say it. I on the other hand say that he DIDN'T say that he DID say that he DOESN'T NOT say it that he DID.

You forgot that he DONE DID what was DOED without even DOESN'T NOT DOES.

But thanx for the support

[KazolOrajia]

I assumed it was common knowledge that Dio didn't invent it, just made it popular.


On the off-topic subject that got brought up, I don't consider Ozzy-only people to be any less Sabbath fans than people who like all eras, or even people who only like the Dio era or only the Martin era (are there such people?). If you like albums by a band called Black Sabbath, you're a Sabbath fan. That's how I see it.






Billy Underdog and Ron Paul remind me of an old married couple

[Billy Underdog]

Don't talk to me about what you think is good music, you classic rock poser noob.

"Oh no, everything that's considered classic rock can only be enjoyed by noobs without musical taste". I'd say anyone able to state something like that is a poser. If i want to talk about classic rock or what i consider good music, it's my god damn right to do so. Just like you've got your right to talk about shit.
And you know nothing about my musical taste, if you've see my playlist, you'd see that only a small part of it is so-called classic rock. Lately it's been alot of Cathedral, Melvins, Monolithic, Shining and Gentle Giant, f.ex. Hardly what one would call "classic rock". Give me a list of ten bands you consider "classic rock", and i'll bet there's alot of them i don't like. (and be fair, you know i like Beatles and The Who).

And by the way; many consider Sabbath to be "classic rock" too...

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

And being into the occult is not the same as flashing the horns in a metal context.

"Flashing the horns" while sitting at a garden-table can hardly be considered "in a metal context".

Why is it that you can hate on everything, but when i throw something back at you, it's suddenly the worst thing in the world?

[nunoni]

I'm willing to believe he claimed it once - in that one interview that you read perhaps in nynorsk translation so the details may have been blurry - but he is on verifyable record very many times saying he didn't invent it. So this whole thread is about saying that the claim he never made is untrue. And if he did make such a claim once, well, don't we all say stupid things once and a while? If you say the truth 100 times and exagerate once, is it that one time that counts? Silly silly.

[Billy Underdog]

And if he did make such a claim once, well, don't we all say stupid things once and a while?

Well, if it was stupid or not, he said it, that's been my point this whole thread.

And, just to be sure you get it this time: I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED HE SAID HE INVENTED IT, JUST THAT HE CLAIMED TO BE THE FIRST ONE TO USE IT IN A ROCK CONTEXT!!!!.
I didn't read it, it was one of those interviews you see on a screen, you know, like a TV or a computer-monitor, you know?

Also, i'm strongly against ny-Norsk...

[MH1986]

This thread....

[Charger]

This thread....

I'll second that.

[Billy Underdog]

You very much are into officially great groups and tend not to see their faults. Perhaps you also have a liking for less popular genres but you seem to see an order of things where there really is none. It's not the Beatles at the center of the table surrounded by disciples, you're just too inexperienced and biased to think any other way. You piesces fishes are accurate about a number of things but have an irrationality and such intensity in their dislike of things and an inability to see a larger picture or a different view.

You have no idea about how i view music, nor any right to say my views are right or wrong.
And you certainly have no right to call me inexperienced, biased or irrational, you're getting pretty close to cross the boarder of being offencive now. Inexperienced, yeah, you're only three years older than me. Guess you learned alot in those three years...
Just because you once liked Beatles but don't anymore, doesn't mean everyone who still like them are following a hype or have any less taste in music than you...

And i'm not a pisces fishes, i'm a libra, you wannabe astrologer.

As for the horns: You said being into the occult isn't the same as flashing the horns in a metal context, i said sitting at a garden table isn't a metal context. How is that repeating your statement? It's really you who's starting to paint yourself into a corner because of a lack of arguments now...


But you didn't dare take my challenge on those 10 whatever you call "classic rock"-bands?

[Josef_K]

Nice way to try to get more listeners for Coven Billy, they're a great band and really deserve it! My favorite song from them must be White Witch of Rose Hall, amazing stuff.

[Billy Underdog]

As for the garden-table, i was refering to this pic posted further up in this thread https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
For some reason i got it in my head he was sitting behind a table. Should've said sitting on a terrace or something instead. SORRY, my bad. Still no metal-context though...

Everything i've said about DD and The Police and such has been very tounge-in-cheek, and i've had the impression that you got that. Didn't know you were so sensitive. Once again, sorry (this one was real).

If age and experience has nothing to do with each other, then i really wonder what planet you live on...

As for the bands:

I said Beatles was unfair, that one you knew already.
Stones: Not at all. If they kicked out that damn poser of a vocalist and that zzzzzzz-boring drummer, and have Keith Richards sing, then maybe.
Zeppelin, Floyd; ofcourse. And don't try anything about it being a hype.
Dylan: Very back and forth, depends very on which mood i'm in. But even you can't say too much bad about him as a lyricist
Once again, i said The Who was unfair, cause you knew the answer already.
The Doors: Yes
Cream: You know that from the last H&H-game, so that's the third cheap shot. Do wish they'd had a better guitarist though...
Jimi Hendrix: Great guitarist (from a guitarists standpoint), songwise VERY back & forth
Sabbath: come on, man, don't make a fool of yourself...

Nirvana: Yes (once again, you knew that one from the supergroup-thread. Fourth cheap shot.)
U2: Hate them
Metallica: On a nostalgic level, and i wish they could get someone who actually knows how to play the drums
G'N'R (oh, you're so mature with your cute little names): My first musical love (i grew up in a little mountain valley with no MTV or such and i've never listened much to radio, so it's a wonder i actually stumbled upon them), still love them (and i actually don't think Axl's solo-album is all that bad either. Nothing he needed to spend 15 years making, but still).
Pearl Jam: Hate them.

[DISCMAN1969]

I'll second that.

I wil third it

[Billy Underdog]

What do you mean cheap shots? Why don't the Beatles and the other groups I know you like count?

I was trying to challange you to find some hyped bands you thought i might like, since you're trying to tell me i only like stuff because i'm supposed to, so i could show you that i'm not just a shallow narrowminded idiot who gets my musical taste from Classic Rock Magazine or whatever. But you kinda ruined that point when you included so many bands you already knew i like and love.

But maybe we should make a new thread called "Ron Paul & Billy Underdog bitching at each other" and move this discussion and the one we've got going on the H&H-game-thread there, so we don't ruin it for everyone else?

Not that anyone like this thread anyway, so...

Edit: Copying this to new thread. It's in General Messages

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

Nice way to try to get more listeners for Coven Billy, they're a great band and really deserve it! My favorite song from them must be White Witch of Rose Hall, amazing stuff.

My pleasure. Sadly i've listened to way too little of them (though some) (So much music, so little time). I've been listening more to Black Widow when it comes to these late 60's/early 70's satanic bands.

Have you read Martin Popoff's FAQ? There's a chapter there about the Sabbath/Widow/Coven-triangle with an interview with Jinx Dawson.

[The Wretch]

Who cares if he was the first to use it or not? He made it popular as a gesture.

I mean, does anyone care if Ozzy invented the peace/victory symbol? No, they do not. He was just the most popular person in metal/heavy rock to use it regularly, so it is associated with him most. Same story here.

And Black Sabbath > Coven, so there is that.

[Josef_K]

My pleasure. Sadly i've listened to way too little of them (though some) (So much music, so little time). I've been listening more to Black Widow when it comes to these late 60's/early 70's satanic bands.

Have you read Martin Popoff's FAQ? There's a chapter there about the Sabbath/Widow/Coven-triangle with an interview with Jinx Dawson.

I haven't read that FAQ, should do that some day. Black Widow are great as well, even though I mostly just listen to their "hit" song Come to the Sabbat (or is it Sabbath? I forget all the time). There's a great live version of it on Youtube if you haven't seen it already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEmALYV72sc

I have heard all of the "Sacrifice" album, but frankly both Coven and Black Widow are merely bands I like to listen to once in a while, not dig too deep into. I find it very fun to show other people those songs though, just to screw with their stereotypical view on "satanic music". They're like, wait no growling? :S Flute? You gotta be kidding me... :D

[Billy Underdog]

II find it very fun to show other people those songs though, just to screw with their stereotypical view on "satanic music". They're like, wait no growling? :S Flute? You gotta be kidding me... :D

I know. Not exactly what most people expect satanic music to sound like.

A few years ago i lived in a house with some friends, and the next door neighbours were christian fanatics, so we used to open the doors and windows and blast Come To The Sabbat (answered that question) on full volume. They just stared at us in horror. Fun times...

And yeah, seen the live-video. I belive it's possible to find the whole (or atleast most of) the Sacrifice-show on youtube, with the mock sacrifice of the nude chick (the wife of Alex Sanders, the head-witch of England who cursed Black Sabbath) and all... Though not as a full video.

Here's a good site about BW and Pesky Gee, with interviews with Clive Jones:
http://www.marmalade-skies.co.uk/peskygeeblackwidow.htm

And the official Black Widow-site:
http://www.blackwidow.org.uk/

[justme1]

The sign is more and constantly connected to Dio over anyone else.

I don't give a sh*t about a time line.

Sorry Ronnie, trivia argument crap is for morons. Love the single and double signs you did with the red smoke plumes on the "Neon Nights" DVD.

[Billy Underdog]

I don't give a sh*t about a time line.

Sorry Ronnie, trivia argument crap is for morons.

Then why are you posting?

[Paulie 88]

Overall, I don't think it matters.

Priest weren't the first guys in hard rock to wear leather, but they were so over-the-top about it, it became a *signature* of theirs to wear leathers onstage - It's been said that they "gave metal a uniform." No one says they were the first, but everyone knows they set the trend.

Likewise; Dio wasn't first, but it's closely associated with him, and with good reason.

/thread

All the best,
PAULIE

PS

[Billy Underdog]

I was the one who taught Hendrix to play the guitar with his teeth...

[justme1]

Then why are you posting?

to reply to the know it all all types who think they know (or only they're right)