Bill ward not going to be in any of the black sabbath shows - official

[brisk]

So who is at fault??!! :-S

Dear Sabbath Fans and Fellow Musicians,

I sincerely regret to inform you that after a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued. At this time I have to inform you that I won’t be playing with Black Sabbath at the Birmingham gig dated May 19th, 2012, nor will I be playing at Download on June 10th, 2012. Further, I will not be playing at Lollapalooza on August 3, 2012.

It is with a very sad heart that I bring you this news. I am sincerely passionate in my desire to play with the band, and I’m very, very sorry that it’s fallen to this. This statement is even more painstaking to write, as I was particularly excited to play alongside Tony Iommi after the recent treatments he underwent. I wanted that to become a reality.

‎...continued.

To express my thoughts about you, the Sabbath fans, I’m going to speak to you all through an experience my brother James had recently. My brother Jimmy lives in the U.K. When speaking with him a couple of days ago, he told me that an acquaintance had stopped him on the street and confronted him, “is your brother playing Birmingham? What’s going on? I waited in line with my son and paid x amount for the concert tickets.”

The man’s son is a young drummer. He’s going to see Sabbath, and he wants to see Bill Ward play drums. Upon hearing this news, I felt horrible. I couldn’t help feeling some resentment towards the failure to reach an agreement, the failure to remember where we came from, the failure to be as brothers, as we once were. To be clear, I’m not blaming the other guys or finding any faults with them. I would think it can’t be easy for them either, but this situation is just really sad. It’s sad that it’s come to this. “This” will surely leave a mark and be unwelcome to the memory. Hopefully “this” will heal and pass in time.

My heart sank when Jimmy told me about this young boy. I know this boy is going to be disappointed, and I don’t know how to amend it, other than to put my arms around the boy and tell him I love him. Sabbath fans have a voice and a face, to me you’re human, you have families and despair. You have ferocity and emotions and graciousness, and at this moment as far as I’m concerned you are also that young boy in England. I don’t know how to amend my part in these failings other than to put my arms around you and say I love you and let you know I’m very, very sorry.

Throughout this process, which began over a year ago, I have had to stand up for myself time and time again. I have had to stand up for myself and in doing so realize my actions indirectly, although unintentionally, are upsetting and hurting a lot of you. I know in my heart I couldn’t have done these concerts by agreeing the terms suggested. I made a solemn vow after the last European and Ozzfest concerts that I would never again enter into what was, in my opinion, a totally unsatisfactory contract. I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it.

Earlier in April 2012, I’d been asked to participate “minimally” in the Download festival. I believe I’d been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs.

I found out about the Birmingham gig on Monday, April 30 through the Internet ad. I was taken aback somewhat by the date, and the fact it was Birmingham. Knowing the “signable” contract negotiations were at best in shreds, I was upset by the idea that the band was going to play Birmingham and play it assumedly without me. I had no prior knowledge of the date and location, and I felt totally excluded. We contacted the representative for Black Sabbath to see if something could be worked out. In the meantime my drum crew and I, along with our US endorsers, finished all the necessary planning for a swift departure to the UK. There wasn’t a whole lot to complete; we’d all been on standby more or less since mid-January 2012. The remaining work in the UK was confirmed done by our European and UK endorsers and we were good to go by Friday, May 4 2012. There were two stress points: firstly, getting an agreement in place, and secondly, getting to England in a timely manner. Jetlag time was taken into account as well as drum practice, a drum practice room in the heart of Birmingham, accommodation, and travel arrangements were all in place to meet with any band rehearsals that may have transpired before the Birmingham show. So far everything that had been arranged was on my dime, but we didn’t move ahead without a realistic confirmation.

Communications between the representative and my lawyer continued through the weekend of May 5 finalizing on Wednesday, May 9. The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download. My ideal thought was to play in full the Birmingham show, in full Download, and in full Lollapalooza.

I had notified the representative that May 10 was my cutoff day in order to have good lead-in time for England. On the night of May 9 I asked for a brief letter to be sent to the representative asking to find out if we were at an end. On the morning of Thursday, May 10, I received a reply in the affirmative. After consulting with my advisors and crew a decision was made to let go and stop.

I can’t prioritize the Sabbath fans making one show more important than the other. I can’t do that. All of you are important. It’s all the gigs or none at all. I can’t come to Birmingham and “see what happens” knowing there is a risk of not being able to play Download or Lollapalooza. Again, for me, it’s all or nothing. I had to say “no” to Birmingham on the principle of wanting to play all the shows. Saying no to Birmingham is very difficult for me. My family grew up in Birmingham. Black Sabbath grew up in Birmingham. It’s still my hometown and I resent having to arrive at such a difficult choice.

Although the statement was made that, “the door is always open” for me, as explained above, walking through that door is not always as easy as it sounds. There are many complicated issues and unseen and unspoken agendas on hand. I can assure you, my criteria for a “signable” contract is based in mindful principles, respectability, and acknowledgement of my history within the band.

I hold no malice or resentment towards the other band members. I love them; I’m tolerant of them; I’m frustrated with them, as they may be with me. My fight has never been with them. I’ll love them forever. In my opinion, nobody wins this time; the band doesn’t win; the fans for an original lineup don’t win. Nobody wins, nobody. Even the ones who thought they did.

I didn’t want to make this decision, but I have to be honest and transparent. This is the statement I didn’t want to write; it’s the last thing I wanted to do. But, I have written it, and now it can go into the universe.

Since Spring of 2011, I’ve waited patiently and hopefully for a signable contract, you know the rest. I stand for the boy in the U.K., for the coming drum student, for all the drummers, who write their parts out and get stiffed on the publishing, I stand with the Sabbath fans chanting “Bill Ward” and asking “why?” and I stand with Tony and Geezer and Ozzy.

On a final note, even though I’m at an end with the upcoming announced concerts, I will remain with an open mind and a position of willingness to negotiate "signable" terms with Sabbath’s representatives in the future.

Stay strong.
Stay safe.

With all my heart and strength, I love you,
Bill Ward

Following on a separate page is a thank you message to some very extraordinary people.

http://www.billward.com/thanks/

[IommiRules]

This just sucks, no other way to put it. Whoever is at the heart of this needs to fix it. We Love Ya Bill.

[DoomSabbath]

Sharon strikes again

[ptr]

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

No other comment needed!!!! This is absolutely DISGUSTING! "play for free"? OMG - he is co-founder of the band!!!!!!

[Billy Underdog]

If this is true (i won't belive it until Siegler confirms it), it's only confirming what we all've known for a long time - no Bill in the reunion...

Offering him to play only three songs while another drummer plays the rest of the show, that's just sick!!!

[LouiST]

Then, I consider this a failed "reunion".

And the official Sabbath site still even has Blil in the backgroud image.. :(

[rar]

When I first heard this (and I mean like at the very first mention of it) my initial, knee-jerk reaction was "come on Bill, I want to see all of Sabbath play together." But then when I read more into it (it didn't take much more reading) it made a lot more sense that clearly Bill is not at fault here. Obviously anyone could expect him to suck it up and play with the band, but he has rights. He is just as much a member of the band as anyone else, and he's played on more albums than Ozzy did for Sabbath, so if anything he should have more rights than Ozzy. Of course, Ozzy is a lot more visible in the image of the band and it'd be a hard argument to pass, but it's the truth.

I'm still extremely curious about exactly who is causing the problems here. It's not Bill obviously, he deserves an equal cut of the reunion just like everyone else does. But is it the band members? Or is it the band managers? I don't know much about how these guys are managed but, to me, if the other band members thought Bill was deserving of an equal share, couldn't they just say "hey managers, I don't care, Bill deserves an equal cut." If they could do that, but aren't, then they're certainly to blame (along with the management). Seriously guys? It should be more about the music at this point and less about the money. How truly sad.
If the band members (I'm talking about Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy here) aren't able to make those decisions (which...what? why not?) then the managers are being dicks and it makes sense.

I suppose I could try to see it from any point of view the other guys might have, and that as time goes on and Bill hasn't participated in any of the music composition for the new album or anything thus far, it might not exactly make them feel that he deserves an equal share, but if they had let him in in the first place, then they wouldn't have that excuse. I don't understand how it all works though, so I'll end my post here.

EDIT

Sharon strikes again

Do you have a source of information on this? I'm curious to see how much Sharon is involved in this, and if it is indeed her call.

[DoomSabbath]

If I am not mistaken, Joe is the admin of the Bill's webpage and his FB.

[LouiST]

AND WHO THE FLYING FUCK DO THE MOTHERFUCKING MANAGERS THINK THEY ARE?!



Yes this is very offensive but I find no way other than this to express my anger, my depression, my sorrow, my instant hatred blablabla whatever stuff.

PS. after reading other posts the managers may not be to blamed/may not be the only one to blamed, the first sentence is just to express my disappointment towards the "reunion" stuff.

[Daaark]

i won't belive it until Siegler confirms it)

He already posted it. That's how most of us are here.

Just seems like business as usual. He has a history of dropping out of these things.

[The Mighty Sab]

Such a sad situation.

[Billy Underdog]

He already posted it.

For some reason my computer don't want to go on the main-page, only directly into the forum, so i didn't know...

[19Barras92]

Yeah, that is really terrible.
I hoped so long, that they can make a good and fair contract. But sometimes we have to face the truth and the truth is hard!
And although nobody can replace Bill as a Drummer I hope that they can find a really good alternative.

[mds]

No reason to blame the managers; they work for the band members. If Tony, Geezer, & Ozzy truly wanted Bill on board he would be with them right now.

[57goldtop]

He has a history of dropping out of these things.

I absolutely don't believe he wanted to drop out of this one. Play 3 songs at Download and then watch someone else drum with Sabbath? "Play the first gig for free and then see how it goes"? That is a complete ****ing insult and I don't blame him one bit for standing his ground. Osbourne's/Iommi's/Butler's "management" have no idea of the size of the error they have made for the sake of money.

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

No reason to blame the managers; they work for the band members. If Tony, Geezer, & Ozzy truly wanted Bill on board he would be with them right now.

Do you REALLY think that Osbourne's manager "works for" him? And by all accounts Butler's "manager" is no church mouse either.

[Drago]

It sounds like to me the same problem Tony had with Bill when they were doing the initial Heaven and Hell reunion. They are not confident in his ability if you read between the lines. They don't want him to play a full show, they don't want him there for the writing of the record. It sounds like they have no confidence in Bill anymore. If that is the case I am not so sure that they are at fault.

[57goldtop]

They are not confident in his ability if you read between the lines. They don't want him to play a full show, they don't want him there for the writing of the record. It sounds like they have no confidence in Bill anymore. If that is the case I am not so sure that they are at fault.

...........if they had so little confidence in Bill then why sell it as an "all four original reunion" in the first place? Which they did?

Bill doesn't come across as an arrogant or over-confident man; he seems a pretty modest, humble and self-critical person. If he wasn't up to it he seems the sort to admit as much and gracefully step aside.

[sharred]

if everything in his statement is true Sabbath can go fuck itself. its not the band i thought it was.
iv got tickets for the Brum gig and its really put a damper on it now. i agree with one of the above comments, if the three others wanted him there, he would've been there.

[rar]

if the three others wanted him there, he would've been there.

This was my line of thinking. Surely the other band members have a lot of say in who they will or won't play with. If this is true and the other guys are being dicks, I'm shocked and disappointed.

[drian]

Its an unfortunate sour note on the bands history and what could have been a life altering thing for me and many other people

im not going to lie i'm really disapointed. I will still go to the two uk shows and try to enjoy them as much as I can because I think itll be the last time I get to hear these songs played live by tony, gezzer and ozzy.

[mds]

Do you REALLY think that Osbourne's manager "works for" him? And by all accounts Butler's "manager" is no church mouse either.

What I think is irrelevant. The fact remains if Ozzy, Geezer, and Tony wanted Bill to participate he would be in Birmingham right now.

[AngryHeart]

Whomever is to blame - this is NOT good. I am sad.

[Charger]

Well this is sad indeed, but hardly unexpected anymore...I think we all knew it would come to this.

What ever the "true" reasons are we won't know and truth be told I don't really care....This should have been with Bill but if not then not....

Frankly I wasn't all that excited about the whole reunion anyways...and now...well even less so.

[Billy Underdog]

People are in each other's lives for a reason.

Sadly, for some of them the reason is money...

[8bit Fighter]

Man I had it with this bullshit. I'm not mad at Bill, just with the situation.

[KazolOrajia]

Jesus, I actually almost cried reading that.

Bill Ward is such a wonderful person, and it absolutely breaks my heart that he was shafted like this. We now know the details of the unsignable contract, and now we know for sure that Bill isn't to blame, that he had every right in the world to refuse to play. Who's to blame? I don't think it matters. What matters is that we've lost the chance for a true reunion of the original line-up.

I'm not surprised at all, but I didn't expect to feel this bad.

We love you, Bill. While I'll still be buying the new album and seeing Sabbath live when/if they come to my area, I'll still be behind you.

[Damian]

I'll be echoing some sentiments already posted above, but I think the members had a general concern about Bill's physical ability to play that probably began in earnest when he had his heart attack while rehearsing for the original reunion. Even though he has played marvelously since then, that is a hard concern to bypass, especially financially-speaking. Carrying a spare drummer on tour is not a road they wanted to cross again, I imagine. Yet this was not a tour for Tony and Bill, just a three-off for old time's sake and to maybe spark some fire for the new release.

From that standpoint, adding the kick-off in Bill's hometown of Birmingham to the stew, I have to say that there had to be more to this decision. Bill's first two "public pleas" regarding his unsignable contract stung the band, forced them to deflect questions, Sharon had to defend herself, Ozzy defended himself. By attempting twice before to force Black Sabbath's hand by using the fans and media, Bill also put them in the position of having to ask themselves "Do we really want to go and play with someone who just put our dirty laundry out there like that?". If what Bill wrote in his third salvo is true, that the band relented and offered him a small role with a chance for possibly more down the road, it reads more like forcing Bill to admit he was wrong. Let's face it, he was either going to get paid nothing or chump change, certainly not more then his "take it or leave it" deal, which would have guaranteed him not only the three Black Sabbath shows, but possibly the Ozzy and Friends tour also. I think that this midnight hour-dealing was phony. It gave Black Sabbath the best of both worlds, they saved some face by "offering" Bill a spot on tour, but they also knew he would never agree to do it, so they didn't actually have to pull the trigger. Again, we only know Bill's side of things right now, but I'm sure there is more to it all.

While we're on the topic of Bill's side of things, I have to say I was yet again disappointed that he mentioned this "unsignable" contract, yet puts out all kinds of personal information about himself, his prep work, what Sabbath's management said and did, and never disclosed what they think he was worth. OK, that is private info to some, fine. But everything else he has relayed about this saga isn't any of our business, either, yet he did it to curry favor among us all, to help fight for him. Why air all of your dirty laundry, all of it relaying info that is sympathetic to your side, and then purposely and repeatedly keep the wallet off the clothesline? To me, its because the amount of money he was offered probably did NOT help his case. If it would have benefited his image among the fans, Bill would have put it out there. Again, just my speculation, but I think Bill felt that some people would point the greedy finger at him if he disclosed his salary. Two or three grand a night (I have no idea what the number really is) is chump change for some, but if that was the number, you can call it unfair but maybe not without thinking that its still a four-figure payday for two hours work in front of thousands who love you. For a 64-year old drummer who has been out of commission for several years now. I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair. And now here comes the real kicker for me:

It was all about being paid fair, right? Getting more money to reflect Bill's contributions to the band, taking a stand for respect. And yet Bill just put out a statement that said that he would play for FREE.

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so. And then the letter ends with yet another "door is still open" tease, one last hope for the fans to rally around his plight and make Black Sabbath whole again. He kept blaming the management, not Tony, Geezer or Ozzy directly. I bet that makes them feel so much better that only their wives and longtime friends were being slagged off and absolutely none of that mud would land on them somehow. Bet they can't wait to play with Bill again now. Well Bill, you're right, the door IS open. Except its a trapdoor, and you fell right through it after you hung yourself. I want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal, especially since he would have played for even less money now.

[Axe fiend]

When all is said and done, This is just fucking sad, Don't know what else to say.

[SabbathDad]

I'll be echoing some sentiments already posted above, but I think the members had a general concern about Bill's physical ability to play that probably began in earnest when he had his heart attack while rehearsing for the original reunion. Even though he has played marvelously since then, that is a hard concern to bypass, especially financially-speaking. Carrying a spare drummer on tour is not a road they wanted to cross again, I imagine. Yet this was not a tour for Tony and Bill, just a three-off for old time's sake and to maybe spark some fire for the new release.

From that standpoint, adding the kick-off in Bill's hometown of Birmingham to the stew, I have to say that there had to be more to this decision. Bill's first two "public pleas" regarding his unsignable contract stung the band, forced them to deflect questions, Sharon had to defend herself, Ozzy defended himself. By attempting twice before to force Black Sabbath's hand by using the fans and media, Bill also put them in the position of having to ask themselves "Do we really want to go and play with someone who just put our dirty laundry out there like that?". If what Bill wrote in his third salvo is true, that the band relented and offered him a small role with a chance for possibly more down the road, it reads more like forcing Bill to admit he was wrong. Let's face it, he was either going to get paid nothing or chump change, certainly not more then his "take it or leave it" deal, which would have guaranteed him not only the three Black Sabbath shows, but possibly the Ozzy and Friends tour also. I think that this midnight hour-dealing was phony. It gave Black Sabbath the best of both worlds, they saved some face by "offering" Bill a spot on tour, but they also knew he would never agree to do it, so they didn't actually have to pull the trigger. Again, we only know Bill's side of things right now, but I'm sure there is more to it all.

While we're on the topic of Bill's side of things, I have to say I was yet again disappointed that he mentioned this "unsignable" contract, yet puts out all kinds of personal information about himself, his prep work, what Sabbath's management said and did, and never disclosed what they think he was worth. OK, that is private info to some, fine. But everything else he has relayed about this saga isn't any of our business, either, yet he did it to curry favor among us all, to help fight for him. Why air all of your dirty laundry, all of it relaying info that is sympathetic to your side, and then purposely and repeatedly keep the wallet off the clothesline? To me, its because the amount of money he was offered probably did NOT help his case. If it would have benefited his image among the fans, Bill would have put it out there. Again, just my speculation, but I think Bill felt that some people would point the greedy finger at him if he disclosed his salary. Two or three grand a night (I have no idea what the number really is) is chump change for some, but if that was the number, you can call it unfair but maybe not without thinking that its still a four-figure payday for two hours work in front of thousands who love you. For a 64-year old drummer who has been out of commission for several years now. I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair. And now here comes the real kicker for me:

It was all about being paid fair, right? Getting more money to reflect Bill's contributions to the band, taking a stand for respect. And yet Bill just put out a statement that said that he would play for FREE.

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so. And then the letter ends with yet another "door is still open" tease, one last hope for the fans to rally around his plight and make Black Sabbath whole again. He kept blaming the management, not Tony, Geezer or Ozzy directly. I bet that makes them feel so much better that only their wives and longtime friends were being slagged off and absolutely none of that mud would land on them somehow. Bet they can't wait to play with Bill again now. Well Bill, you're right, the door IS open. Except its a trapdoor, and you fell right through it after you hung yourself. I want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal, especially since he would have played for even less money now.

Well Stated....... and right on the mark

[mds]

It's unfortunate. In the end 11/11/11 shouldn't have happened without all contracts 100% signed, sealed, and delivered.

[turch118]

It sounds like to me the same problem Tony had with Bill when they were doing the initial Heaven and Hell reunion. They are not confident in his ability if you read between the lines. They don't want him to play a full show, they don't want him there for the writing of the record. It sounds like they have no confidence in Bill anymore. If that is the case I am not so sure that they are at fault.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[blacksabbathforever]

this is horrible....i think the band members could get bill an equelt share, its not the management...this left me in tears, right there in school...you left me in tears bill...GIVE BILL A FAIR SHARE!!!

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

already got my lollapaloza ticket. Only hope is that he will play on the album.

[MobRules]

I just ripped up my download, and lollapolooza tickets.


Fuck the band. The entire enterprise is full of fucking shit.

[blacksabbathforever]

not a good idea....there is still hope...a very small amount. but there is hope.

[KazolOrajia]

I just ripped up my download, and lollapolooza tickets.


Fuck the band. The entire enterprise is full of fucking shit.

I hope you're wealthy. Couldn't you have just returned them? Or if they were non-refundable, just give them to somebody else. Ripping them up is stupid.

Then again, if you're so adamantly against seeing the band without Bill, you shouldn't have bought tickets before you knew if he was there or not.

[blacksabbathforever]

i agree! I'm going to see them to support Tony, Ozzy and Geezer. Hopefully Vinny!!!

[KazolOrajia]

I separate business and music in my mind. Bill Ward not participating in the reunion is business-I'll go to see Black Sabbath because I love their music. It's not like this is the first time a member has been royally screwed over either (Tony Martin anyone?). It's still a tragedy, but my desire to see Sabbath at least once is greater than my desire to stand by Bill. And he never said 'Boycott them because I'm not included!'

[Soul Sucker]

I just ripped up my download, and lollapolooza tickets.

Why did you even buy tickets knowing that the chances of Bill playing were slim? That's so fucking stupid. Why not give the tickets away to someone who actually wants to see Black Sabbath since you already gave the band your money when you paid for them?

You're probably making it up anyway. I'll bet you still have the tickets... Enjoy the concerts!

[MobRules]

I hope you're wealthy. Couldn't you have just returned them? Or if they were non-refundable, just give them to somebody else. Ripping them up is stupid.

Then again, if you're so adamantly against seeing the band without Bill, you shouldn't have bought tickets before you knew if he was there or not.

I'll be fine. I'm boycotting them. I'm all for all era's of Black Sabbath, I LOVE the line up changes. But this just isn't right. I had a feeling he wasn't going to play, but not because of GREED. The others are fucking greedy. Play for free? Psht. I hope they get booed tonight for not having bill up there.

[Borg]

I'd like to hear the other half of the story. A statement from Iommi/Butler/Osbourne is needed.