Bill ward not going to be in any of the black sabbath shows - official

[Vynlsol]

...

I want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal, especially since he would have played for even less money now.

I pretty much agree with your entire comment (not just the bit I quoted). Not trying to ride on Bill or anyone else for that matter, but it seems to me that if you're going around waving the "personal integrity" flag while at the same time saying you'd play for free...why not just go do it then?

If playing Birmingham would have meant so much to Mr. Ward, why on earth would he let pride stand in the way of that? He's cut his nose off to spite his face.

[Sabbathman]

So now we know.

"participate 'minimally"
"no more than three songs"
"Come to the U.K., play for free and see how the first show goes."

When and why did Bill become a mere special guest in this final reunion scheme? How the hell did they expect Bill to come by for free and on his own expense?

He's the FUCKING CO-FOUNDER OF THIS BAND, he did the FIRST 8 albums in the 70's and 2 MORE albums in the 80's. Bill is one of the prime reasons why heavy metal exists in general and why there are people who try to play drums and brass as groovy and heavy as he did. Why don't everyone want Bill on board so that this final reunion could be sealed properly???

Is Bill so fucking incapable these days that they didn't want him for 3 full shows and on the FUCKING FINAL STUDIO ALBUM? Or is it just plain old greed and pride on the behalf of others all over again? The goddamn business transactions and contracts...

Whoever and whatever are behind all this, they've taken away an ESSENTIAL piece from THE FINAL BLACK SABBATH REUNION. They've fucked up the last chapter of this band's history. Years later, when we are still Black Sabbath fans, there's going to be talk about how they managed to fuck this up, big time.

Asking Vinny to do these 3 shows and the album is their last straw...and even Vinny is the second best compared to Bill in this case, Vinny himself would like to see Bill doing this as he's one of the four original players. Bill should have been called in with a decent contract in order to do this right.

Peace and love to everyone responsible for this...

[invisible man]

long time listener, first time caller. i just wanted to say: Occupy Black Sabbath! I'm not sure what that means yet, but it might be the only reasonable thing left to do. (insert Children of the Grave lyrics here) FUBAR!

Black Sabbath fans hire their own lawyer to draw up a fair contract, deliver to all parties. Throw pie at Sharon Osbourne on her new traveling reality talent show thing. etc...

[Billy Underdog]

Occupy Black Sabbath! I'm not sure what that means yet, but it might be the only reasonable thing left to do. (insert Children of the Grave lyrics here) FUBAR!

If we're going to squat Sabbath, i call shotgun to live inside Geezer

[MH1986]

I'd like to hear the other half of the story. A statement from Iommi/Butler/Osbourne is needed.

I wouldn't expect anything to come out of Iommi's camp. That's one private dude right there.

[NibRules]

If it is because of lack of confidence to Bill's ability to play drums/perform then they have had to know and recognize it already when this whole reunion (or ex-reunion by now) was announced, that is, on 11/11/11. But of course it would have been bad marketing and lesser publicity and by no means not justified to call it reunion without Bill. So, it is all about money. It was fucking wrong to give false hope, or to better say false promise, to have Black Sabbath reunion. If it had been announced back then that 3 original Black Sabbath members (+ some drummer) are going to make new album and world tour it would have been easier to swallow. But now it is totally different issue, at least I feel totally fooled. Seems that they don't understand how big fail this is, and seems that they don't understand how big Black Sabbath is, it is fucking heavy metal monument! This is so sad...

[Iconosphere]

Soooooooooooooo errrrrrrrrr, anyone fancy going down the pub for a pint?

[Billy Underdog]

Soooooooooooooo errrrrrrrrr, anyone fancy going down the pub for a pint?

I'm with you, man. So, come and pick me up in half an hour or so?

[Sabbathman]

If it is because of lack of confidence to Bill's ability to play drums/perform then they have had to know and recognize it already when this whole reunion (or ex-reunion by now) was announced, that is, on 11/11/11. But of course it would have been bad marketing and lesser publicity and by no means not justified to call it reunion without Bill. So, it is all about money. It was fucking wrong to give false hope, or to better say false promise, to have Black Sabbath reunion. If it had been announced back then that 3 original Black Sabbath members (+ some drummer) are going to make new album and world tour it would have been easier to swallow. But now it is totally different issue, at least I feel totally fooled. Seems that they don't understand how big fail this is, and seems that they don't understand how big Black Sabbath is, it is fucking heavy metal monument! This is so sad...

False hope and false promise indeed. I'm sure they knew of Bill's capabilities last year when this reunion was planned and then announced, otherwise why the hell would have they announced the reunion as the original four members? Is this situation so sickening that first a) they knew Bill could or couldn't do it and then b) they announced the reunion regardless of Bill's capabilities just to make it look like real reunion and finally c) they decided that Bill can be left without a decent contract and then replaced if he didn't agree to take what was offered to him? Why would they continue offering Bill some low class contract this time too? This is the last reunion! What's the real problem with Bill and taking him aboard with a decent contract? What makes the giving of a decent contract to Bill so damn difficult this time? Bill's supposedly lessened capabilities? Or just plain old greed? Why is Bill a lesser member than Ozzy and Tony in this fucking reunion? Or lesser than Geezer? Why couldn't they offer Bill the same kind of acceptable contract that they offered to Geezer? Geezer is the bassist, Bill is the fucking drummer. Aren't Bill their lifetime friend, a brother in arms? "We love Bill, but we won't give him a good contract."

If they knew that maybe or probably Bill couldn't pull through this, they should have honestly announced a reunion of Ozzy, Tony and Geezer with Vinny Appice as the drummer. Announcing a reunion of all 4 original members, while the drummer doesn't have a respectable contract, is dishonest and deceptive. Going out under the banner of all 4 original members of Black Sabbath but in reality without the original drummer is a huge let down.

Surely this situation demands an announcement from the rest of Black Sabbath, just to make things clearer by presenting their view.

Oh, I almost forgot: I won't be seeing Tony Iommi this time, I'm going to see Ozzy & Friends! So what the fuck do I care...

Hopefully at least the album will be recorded with Bill. Hopefully the album's recording sessions will be postponed indefinitely until they can offer Bill a decent contract. The album deserves and demands to have Bill on board!

No-one wants to read album credits like this:

BLACK SABBATH

Geezer Butler - bass
Tony Iommi - guitars
Ozzy Osbourne - vocals

A special thanks to Adam Wakeman for keyboards and Tommy Clufetos for drums.

[Billy Underdog]

I won't be seeing Tony Iommi this time, I'm going to see Ozzy & Friends! So what the fuck do I care...

I hope you and your fellow Finns post something about how the show was, as i'm going to the show a few days later...

[Sabbathman]

I hope you and your fellow Finns post something about how the show was, as i'm going to the show a few days later...

Sure, a report is due.

I just would have loved to see and hear Bill on the DVD. I guess they WILL feel the loneliness on the stage in Birmingham, Donington and Chicago, when Bill is not there with them...

[Billy Underdog]

Sure, a report is due.

I just would have loved to see and hear Bill on the DVD.

The ad says "Ozzy & Friends, with Geezer, Zakk & Slash, with some special surprise". How cool would'nt it be if that surprise is Bill? (But how likely is that. Not at all, i'd say...)

[Sabbathman]

The ad says "Ozzy & Friends, with Geezer, Zakk & Slash, with some special surprise". How cool would'nt it be if that surprise is Bill? (But how likely is that. Not at all, i'd say...)

I meant the Black Sabbath shows, surely they will film the Birmingham show for a DVD?

I think it's strange that there's still no official statement concerning the lineup. All we have is Bill's statement. Sure, there was the Ozzy & Friends picture, but nothing official about the lineup on Black Sabbath's tour and album.

Obviously, they are completely incapable and unable to do this Black Sabbath reunion with Bill, not the 3 shows, not the album I guess. If they can't do it now, they can't do it next year either.

[Billy Underdog]

I meant the Black Sabbath shows, surely they will film the Birmingham show for a DVD?

I would'nt count on it. The first show for years is usually not the best one to record (save for the reunion-album), especially with Tony still undergoing/just went through treatments.
And it's already kinda confirmed that Bill won't be a part of it.

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 AM ----------

I just would have loved to see and hear Bill on the DVD. I guess they WILL feel the loneliness on the stage in Birmingham, Donington and Chicago, when Bill is not there with them...

Let's hope they feel that way and understand the stupidity of this whole situation, so Bill can get on his rightful place behind the kit, both for the album and the world-tour to come. (Although not very likely)

[Sabbathman]

I would'nt count on it. The first show for years is usually not the best one to record (save for the reunion-album), especially with Tony still undergoing/just went through treatments.
And it's already kinda confirmed that Bill won't be a part of it.

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 AM ----------



Let's hope they feel that way and understand the stupidity of this whole situation, so Bill can get on his rightful place behind the kit, both for the album and the world-tour to come. (Although not very likely)

I've thrown away any high hopes of a Black Sabbath world tour in the unforeseeable future, with or without Bill. They're simply running out of time. They couldn't do it right at this their possibly last time, how could they do it right next year, even if Tony recovers to full health? With or without Bill, no-one knows how Tony will eventually recover from his ailment and how long will it take. Sure, he can work in the studio and make the album this year while Ozzy & Friends fulfill the commitments, but a world tour next year at 65 after those bloody cancer treatments...it's just too early for me to think that far. Sure, I hope that Tony will recover to full health and ability to tour the world once more, that's my #1 hope, but at this point, after learning about Tony's ailment and his absence and today's final disappointment with Bill's supposed contractual absence, I'll just have to let someone else tell me when it actually happens.

Ozzy & Friends will rock next Wednesday. Black Sabbath's new album may be this year's thing after all. But a world tour of the original Black Sabbath lineup is too uncertain and too far away at this point to get me excited about it.

[mds]

As I stated earlier, 11/11/11 shouldn't have happened without ironclad contracts already signed.This whole process is a prime example of ready, fire, aim. Without overdramatizing didn't Tony and Geezer learn anything from Ronnie's passing? Haven't they learned anything from Tony's current condition? Time is fleeting and waits for no man. What a cluster.

[Sabbathman]

There's your ironclad contract...

[mds]

There's your ironclad contract...

Good one SabMan!

[mike146]

I think Damian hit most of the points on this. I am sorry that the other guys have chosen not to respond to Bill's obvious threats.
To me, that is what happened. Bill had some conversations with the band and got all prima donna on them saying if it doesn't go this way, then I am out. Well they then called his bluff and this is his way of trying to save face and sway sympathy to his side.

As others have said, it is all very sad that it came to this.

As far as Vinny playing, don't count on it. He has said that no one has spoken to him in recent days. Wonder if he talked to Tony after finding out he was sick? He also said how disappointed he was that the devil you know album was written with a drum machine instead of him playing with the band.

And the drum machine could be the biggest problem for Bill. Remember when he pulled out of Heaven and Hell he mentioned that he could not play the way Tony was instructing him.

[Formerly Riffs]

I'll be echoing some sentiments already posted above, but I think the members had a general concern about Bill's physical ability to play that probably began in earnest when he had his heart attack while rehearsing for the original reunion. Even though he has played marvelously since then, that is a hard concern to bypass, especially financially-speaking. Carrying a spare drummer on tour is not a road they wanted to cross again, I imagine.

Then if they had "a general concern" maybe they shouldn't have lied and pretended this was about a reunion tour, using Bill for their marketing?

While we're on the topic of Bill's side of things, I have to say I was yet again disappointed that he mentioned this "unsignable" contract, yet puts out all kinds of personal information about himself, his prep work, what Sabbath's management said and did, and never disclosed what they think he was worth. OK, that is private info to some, fine. But everything else he has relayed about this saga isn't any of our business, either, yet he did it to curry favor among us all, to help fight for him. Why air all of your dirty laundry, all of it relaying info that is sympathetic to your side, and then purposely and repeatedly keep the wallet off the clothesline?

Because that's none of our business? I am puzzled by your sense of entitlement here. Seriously, it's human nature not to give too much details about one's finances. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions but by and large, people will share all kinds of details about their lives, even sordid ones, before they tell you about their actual income or significant financial assets or transactions.

To me, its because the amount of money he was offered probably did NOT help his case. If it would have benefited his image among the fans, Bill would have put it out there. Again, just my speculation, but I think Bill felt that some people would point the greedy finger at him if he disclosed his salary. Two or three grand a night (I have no idea what the number really is) is chump change for some, but if that was the number, you can call it unfair but maybe not without thinking that its still a four-figure payday for two hours work in front of thousands who love you. For a 64-year old drummer who has been out of commission for several years now. I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair.

You're not entitled to know about the financial details of this travesty of a reunion. Even if Bill Ward threw you an isolated number, it would mean absolutely nothing in the larger context of the whole deal. You do realize that, right? Whether Bill told you he would get paid a hundred bucks a night, or a thousand, or ten thousand... it still wouldn't tell you what the actual deal means in a larger context. Fairness has nothing to do with 3rd parties. It has to do with those four guys and what they feel they are entitled to, rightly or wrongly.

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so.

Where did you read about playing for free in the last six months? Did I miss something?

And then the letter ends with yet another "door is still open" tease, one last hope for the fans to rally around his plight and make Black Sabbath whole again.

That might be seen as a little manipulative on Bill's part. I do feel his mistake (as usual, this is a Sabbath classic) was to agree to the reunion and take part in that marketing campaign BEFORE signing a contract. Doing so, he lost pretty much all leverage. The word is out there, the buzz was created, the hype allowed a slight renewed presence in the media. Bill not participating in the reunion will hurt, but not as much as it would have if he had refused to take part in this charade before inking a proper deal.

So yeah, melodramatic pleas to fans are a little pathetic but probably the last weapon in the arsenal for old Bill. I don't want to absolve the guy from everything. He is an adult and should have known better. At the same time, you'd have to be blind not to see the guy got screwed.

He kept blaming the management, not Tony, Geezer or Ozzy directly. I bet that makes them feel so much better that only their wives and longtime friends were being slagged off and absolutely none of that mud would land on them somehow.

I do feel under the current circumstances, and considering the rich history this band has of slagging each other, Bill's conduct was overall as classy as could be. There might be other channels at this point but I don't see it. Not after being screwed getting Sabbath some buzz and getting an offer he doesn't feel he can accept. Maybe you have suggestions? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to know.

Bet they can't wait to play with Bill again now.

LOL. You have a way of making it sound like it's the one gullible dude slighting the three others when it's the other way around.

AI want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal,

Of course you do. Because you're not Bill Ward.

I know how important having a second car would be to me. And I just wish you would give me yours. I also feel Black Sabbath have enough money and should rent a hotel and hold a private beach party+concert for me and my friends. Black Sabbath is very important to us. For them not to do it is greedy, don't you agree? Ozzy makes more money in a year than I probably do in a lifetime (I wish he would provide me with a detailed account of his income, I feel I am entitled to that) so I don't think I am being unreasonable.

[Sabbathman]

...they saved some face by "offering" Bill a spot on tour, but they also knew he would never agree to do it, so they didn't actually have to pull the trigger. Again, we only know Bill's side of things right now, but I'm sure there is more to it all.

I can't understand how this situation is or could be "saving some face".

Like you said: "I'm sure there is more to it". It's strange that we can't get clear answers from this band. The secrecy is not adding any mystique around the band, it's just more frustration piling on frustration.

Back in 2006-2009 it was "Hey, let's get together, ok? Let's make some new music, let's tour, let's rock 'n' roll"...

Now it's "there's more than meets the eye here, there's more to this than we know..."

I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair.

Seems that all we will ever get from this particular incarnation is lawsuits, contract mess, secrecy concerning the lineup...As bad as the so called "karma" around this band is at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if the new album will also be fucked in some way...maybe some horrible brick-walled mastering courtesy of Rick Rubin or something like that...

And now here comes the real kicker for me:

It was all about being paid fair, right? Getting more money to reflect Bill's contributions to the band, taking a stand for respect. And yet Bill just put out a statement that said that he would play for FREE.

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so.

I think of course he was tempted to play in his hometown at least...he admitted it, there's nothing wrong with it. Finally, he chose not to do it.

Whatever the real problem with Bill may be, the end result of all this is that Bill won't play with the rest of Black Sabbath on these 3 special shows. They, all of them who are concerned, just couldn't pull this off the way they should have. They couldn't or didn't want to offer Bill an acceptable contract, yet they decided to announce this reunion even though they didn't have all the contracts in place. Now they won't make a statement as to what caused them to keep Bill away from this and now they can't even announce who the drummer for these Black Sabbath shows will be. The homecoming show will be played 3 days from now!

Oh well. My schedule is this:

1. Ozzy & Friends - Wednesday 23rd
2. Black Sabbath album - hopefully this year
3. Black Sabbath tour - wake me up when it's becoming reality

[DNavajoC]

I'll be echoing some sentiments already posted above, but I think the members had a general concern about Bill's physical ability to play that probably began in earnest when he had his heart attack while rehearsing for the original reunion. Even though he has played marvelously since then, that is a hard concern to bypass, especially financially-speaking. Carrying a spare drummer on tour is not a road they wanted to cross again, I imagine. Yet this was not a tour for Tony and Bill, just a three-off for old time's sake and to maybe spark some fire for the new release.

From that standpoint, adding the kick-off in Bill's hometown of Birmingham to the stew, I have to say that there had to be more to this decision. Bill's first two "public pleas" regarding his unsignable contract stung the band, forced them to deflect questions, Sharon had to defend herself, Ozzy defended himself. By attempting twice before to force Black Sabbath's hand by using the fans and media, Bill also put them in the position of having to ask themselves "Do we really want to go and play with someone who just put our dirty laundry out there like that?". If what Bill wrote in his third salvo is true, that the band relented and offered him a small role with a chance for possibly more down the road, it reads more like forcing Bill to admit he was wrong. Let's face it, he was either going to get paid nothing or chump change, certainly not more then his "take it or leave it" deal, which would have guaranteed him not only the three Black Sabbath shows, but possibly the Ozzy and Friends tour also. I think that this midnight hour-dealing was phony. It gave Black Sabbath the best of both worlds, they saved some face by "offering" Bill a spot on tour, but they also knew he would never agree to do it, so they didn't actually have to pull the trigger. Again, we only know Bill's side of things right now, but I'm sure there is more to it all.

While we're on the topic of Bill's side of things, I have to say I was yet again disappointed that he mentioned this "unsignable" contract, yet puts out all kinds of personal information about himself, his prep work, what Sabbath's management said and did, and never disclosed what they think he was worth. OK, that is private info to some, fine. But everything else he has relayed about this saga isn't any of our business, either, yet he did it to curry favor among us all, to help fight for him. Why air all of your dirty laundry, all of it relaying info that is sympathetic to your side, and then purposely and repeatedly keep the wallet off the clothesline? To me, its because the amount of money he was offered probably did NOT help his case. If it would have benefited his image among the fans, Bill would have put it out there. Again, just my speculation, but I think Bill felt that some people would point the greedy finger at him if he disclosed his salary. Two or three grand a night (I have no idea what the number really is) is chump change for some, but if that was the number, you can call it unfair but maybe not without thinking that its still a four-figure payday for two hours work in front of thousands who love you. For a 64-year old drummer who has been out of commission for several years now. I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair. And now here comes the real kicker for me:

It was all about being paid fair, right? Getting more money to reflect Bill's contributions to the band, taking a stand for respect. And yet Bill just put out a statement that said that he would play for FREE.

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so. And then the letter ends with yet another "door is still open" tease, one last hope for the fans to rally around his plight and make Black Sabbath whole again. He kept blaming the management, not Tony, Geezer or Ozzy directly. I bet that makes them feel so much better that only their wives and longtime friends were being slagged off and absolutely none of that mud would land on them somehow. Bet they can't wait to play with Bill again now. Well Bill, you're right, the door IS open. Except its a trapdoor, and you fell right through it after you hung yourself. I want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal, especially since he would have played for even less money now.

Damian, I finally registered in this forum only to support this statement. I'll be traveling from Brazil with a bunch of friends only to see this concert. We had tickets for another country, then spent a lot with cancellations and changes to attend to Download. But it was acceptable, it had to do with Tony's disease and he deserves our support. Either way, I was supporting Bill's position until this late statement, I was part of the "No Bill, No Sabbath" chants. After this messy statement, I am no longer. He mentions this little boy, but not even this makes he see that this is the last chance he and we have to see they all together. I agree he did put all band members in a difficult position when decided to use us to support his point of view. He doesn't even gives the deserved value to the fact he is given an unexpected chance to play with Tony again. I will no longer stand for Bill against those that will play for us: Geezer, Tony and Ozzy. They are Sabbath. I still love Bill and everything he did for us, but I now stand for Black Sabbath. They care about me, my friends and that little boy.

Sometimes we make things more difficult than they really are, sometimes we need to think simple to understand what is going on. And there is one simple thing that gives me a clear idea of who is wrong here: Tony is fighting against cancer and will be playing, Bill will not.

[Borg]

I wouldn't expect anything to come out of Iommi's camp. That's one private dude right there.

I know, but I tend to trust Him more because of that.

[57goldtop]

I now stand for Black Sabbath. They care about me, my friends and that little boy.

With no disrespect intended to you personally- horseshit. They care about money. If they really did "care about me, my friends and that little boy" then this dialogue wouldn't be taking place because this whole tawdry debacle wouldn't have happened.

Bill has been f***ed over more than once before by "Sabbath's management" and signed contracts he wasn't happy with for old times' sake with his friends etc etc etc and this time he couldn't do it.

And there's one person it's really easy to blame- but does anyone really think they had NOTHING to do with it?

[DNavajoC]

I now stand for Black Sabbath. They care about me, my friends and that little boy.

With no disrespect intended to you personally- horseshit. They care about money. If they really did "care about me, my friends and that little boy" then this dialogue wouldn't be taking place because this whole tawdry debacle wouldn't have happened.

Bill has been f***ed over more than once before by "Sabbath's management" and signed contracts he wasn't happy with for old times' sake with his friends etc etc etc and this time he couldn't do it.

And there's one person it's really easy to blame- but does anyone really think they had NOTHING to do with it?

Please, don't get me wrong and don't think I don't blame Ozzy&Sharon for this also, because I do. But after all, Geezer and Tony will be playing not for money, but for us. And Bill will not.

[Sabbathman]

Sometimes we make things more difficult than they really are, sometimes we need to think simple to understand what is going on. And there is one simple thing that gives me a clear idea of who is wrong here: Tony is fighting against cancer and will be playing, Bill will not.

But then again, Tony and Ozzy are the insiders, Black Sabbath has become their business. Bill has been an outsider for years. Tony and Ozzy are the ones who call people in and offer deals, Bill was the one who was called in and offered a deal.

For all we know from the media, Bill has stated that he wasn't offered a respectable contract. So Bill is in the receiving end of this.

Tony will play what he can. Bill will not play because there's no signed contract and no payment to be had from this. At this level, it's not "only rock 'n' roll", it's always the business side as well.

[CrystalWorld]

I used to look at the lack of Sabbath merchandise and how hard it was to find and think of that as a symbol of them not selling out, but this business has changed all that. "I've always considered black sabbath to be Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler, Bill Ward, and Myself."

except for when the money is in your favor, then it's sabbath all the way!

[Damian]

Where did you read about playing for free in the last six months? Did I miss something?

Boy Howdy, you must have. Check your PM.

[Master of Insanity]

At first I was upset that Bill wouldn't be on board but after that rambling statement he released I'm ready to stick a fork in it.

Here Tony is sick and Bill is still home in the States whining about his money. Why didn't he go to England and at least show some care and initiative instead of trying to sway public opinion with these rambling nonsensical statements.

I like Bill but this whole thing just put a bad taste in my mouth. If he's not going to participate then too bad and move on. I still want a new Black Sabbath album and tour.

On a side note, I have to wonder also if Bill's playing was not up to par and they had doubts as to if he could handle it or not?

[celt]

The 40+ year Black Sabbath story is certainly one of many twists and turns, isn't it?! It's painfully clear that the other three (or at least two out of three) just don't want Bill on board. Why? Tony shed a lot of light in his book about the trepidation the band members had regarding Bill way back in 97-98, especially Ozzy, who, according to Tony, had the biggest problem with Bill being a part of the 97-98 reunion. And if you've read the book, you know that, according to Tony, Ozzy really, really did not want Bill on board, something about not being able to provide a sufficient back-beat that would gloss over his vocal mistakes. Anyway, at the end of the book Tony says something to the effect that he will "never again light Bill on fire." Well....

[Billy Underdog]

I said in another thread; Sabbath hasn't cared about drummers since '81. All this nonsense just proves that point. "Play one show for free to see how it turns out" and "play only three songs each show and have another drummer do the rest". That's some truly sick stuff, showing such disrespect to one of rock-history's greatest drummers. All of you who's turning you back at Bill now should feel ashamed.

Another thing i'd like to add to that first statement; Tony hasn't shown any respect for his own fans since '79. (To be fair to all you Dio-worshipers, i'm willing to stretch it till '83-'84)

Bill are in no way to be blamed for this, he's only standing up for his own rights! I would've done the same if i were in his shoes...
But there's atleast one who's obsessed with the whole money-&-control-thing, two if you count $hozzy. Geezer's probably the only one who's in it for the fun and the legacy... (as Bill would too if he'd been treated with respect)

[Master of Insanity]

I said in another thread; Sabbath hasn't cared about drummers since '81. All this nonsense just proves that point. "Play one show for free to see how it turns out" and "play only three songs each show and have another drummer do the rest". This is some truly sick stuff, showing such disrespect to one of rock-history's greatest drummers. All of you who's turning you back at Bill now should feel ashamed.

Another thing i'd like to add to that first statement; Tony hasn't shown any respect for his own fans since '79. (To be fair to all you Dio-worshipers, i'm willing to stretch it till '83-'84)

Bill are in no way to be blamed for this, he's only standing up for his own rights! I would've done the same if i were in his shoes...
But there's atleast one who's obsessed with the whole money-&-control-thing, two if you count $hozzy. Geezer's probably the only one who's in it for the fun and the legacy... (as Bill would too if he'd been treated with respect)

You don't know the whole story only Bill's (rambling) part. We don't know the status of Bill's playing abilities either or his health issues. Insurance costs with a tour for having a drummer (the most physically demanding position in a band) with a heart condition are probably outrageous. Also, the need to have a stand-in drummer on salary isn't cheap either. They probably took a lot of these extra costs out of Bill's cut.

[Billy Underdog]

You don't know the whole story.

Neither do you.

If we're to belive Vinny Appice, he went along for a whole tour without having to step in at all. AND even he says the only right thing to do is to have Bill there...

[Borg]

At first I was upset that Bill wouldn't be on board but after that rambling statement he released I'm ready to stick a fork in it.

Here Tony is sick and Bill is still home in the States whining about his money. Why didn't he go to England and at least show some care and initiative instead of trying to sway public opinion with these rambling nonsensical statements.

I like Bill but this whole thing just put a bad taste in my mouth. If he's not going to participate then too bad and move on. I still want a new Black Sabbath album and tour.

On a side note, I have to wonder also if Bill's playing was not up to par and they had doubts as to if he could handle it or not?

This is something that not everyone has noticed.

I think Black Sabbath is a family, and families should not do the laundry in public.

Why are we fans suddenly asked to be involved on a contract that neither of us will sign?

[justme1]

Per older posts I assumed the whole "world tour", etc would take a dump as it now has. 1 US date does not make a tour.

Change the name (per Heaven and Hell with Dio) as it isn't Sabbath without Bill.

I also had concern, if they did have a big/long tour, about Bill's health, having had a heart attack and some other issues.

[Soul Sucker]

Change the name (per Heaven and Hell with Dio) as it isn't Sabbath without Bill.

It is, actually.

[57goldtop]

The 40+ year Black Sabbath story is certainly one of many twists and turns, isn't it?! It's painfully clear that the other three (or at least two out of three) just don't want Bill on board. Why? Tony shed a lot of light in his book about the trepidation the band members had regarding Bill way back in 97-98, especially Ozzy, who, according to Tony, had the biggest problem with Bill being a part of the 97-98 reunion. And if you've read the book, you know that, according to Tony, Ozzy really, really did not want Bill on board, something about not being able to provide a sufficient back-beat that would gloss over his vocal mistakes. Anyway, at the end of the book Tony says something to the effect that he will "never again light Bill on fire." Well....

OK, fine. Possibly perfectly legitimate concerns, same with Bill's health. But then why present 11/11/11- to us and to Bill- as a full reunion of the original four? Why not keep it the three of you, and maybe just say Bill has health concerns and you hope he can guest at some shows? The public would have been much more accepting of that scenario, and probably so would Bill, if it had been handled sensitively.

I note that no-one has disputed that Bill thought exactly the same as all of us- that it was a full reunion of the four- until he got his contract.

He was conned. And so were we. Sabbath and their "management", and especially Osbourne, are the big guys, and Bill's the little guy, and Bill got ****ed over by the big guys because they have more money and power than he does. I hope they're not underestimating what a complete and utter public relations disaster this is. This is an indelible stain on Sabbath, and this one will run and run.

[brokentiny]

I'm not going to weigh in on who is to blame, not going to automatically blame Sharon Osbourne or consider Bill a whiner…because none of us know the full story and there's a lot of assuming going on. Suffice to say, it's a real shame it's come to this. I must admit I was surprised at this outcome. I thought that since both parties had gone quiet for quite a while, but then the gigs were announced, that there was something going on and I was really thinking a positive outcome would occur.

And although it seems more unlikely now, it's not beyond reason to think there may be some future with them together, as in the original reunion period there were initial issues that happened with Bill, including gigs without him, that were eventually ironed out. Not sure if that can happen this time, but it's not impossible.

But I reiterate what I said before and others have too. The reunion should never have been announced without contracts being fully sorted. I am wondering if they were in fact all figured out and sorted at the time, but come Tony's illness, the situation changed drastically, as it would under the circumstances, that included something that neither party couldn't agree to.

In the end I'm disappointed, but to be honest, I never thought I'd ever get to see the original Black Sabbath live anyway. I missed out last time and had to live with it. A reunion? Guess what? It happened already…get over it. Perhaps things should be left as is.

Of course it would be nice for fans to see bands they never got to experience , but it's actually a pretty unnatural situation most of the time, like a divorced couple getting remarried for other reasons other than some rediscovered love for each other. The Sabbath situation in particular seems to be pretty murky. I personally feel that it should be all or nothing, not because of any particular allegiance I have for either party, but because the fact that Sabbath's final legacy may be tainted by squabbles rather than the comradeship that started it all, is really sad.

[Billy Underdog]

I also had concern, if they did have a big/long tour, about Bill's health, having had a heart attack and some other issues.

Why are everyone so hung up about the health-issue? He played several tours and shows through the early 2000's, and didn't have much health-issues then. Vinny was brought along as a replacement if needed, and he didn't play at all...

[TYR66]

I 'd never believed in the return of Bill , so I' m not very surprised . For me , this faked story stinks since the 11/11/11 .
Bill no longer has the physical ability to play properly, and everyone knows that. Nothing is arranged over the years that have passed.
He' s full part of the band legacy forever , especially for the first albums and we all owe him respect for that.
But don't hide behind false pretenses. It 's sad , but again , the motivation IS money and nothing else .
we 'll never know the true contents of the contract, and this doesn't concern us.