Bill ward not going to be in any of the black sabbath shows - official

[Fozzy]

I'm gutted and its a real shame, but life goes on. I've seen Black Sabbath loads of times before without Bill and it was great, and I'll be seeing them again soon without Bill and I'm sure that'll be great too.
Still not sure who's playing drums but if it is Tommy Clufetso thats fine by me, great drummer I think, I just feel for him really, he's gonna take a lot of shit through no fault of his own.

[CrystalWorld]

Quote Originally Posted by justme1 View Post
Change the name (per Heaven and Hell with Dio) as it isn't Sabbath without Bill.

It is, actually.

He's just holding Ozzy to his word, but I guess that's meaningless anyway.

Otherwise I think you're right, it is black sabbath for all intents and purposes. Though I do wish they would take Bill Ward off the official site!!!

[Fozzy]

Quote Originally Posted by justme1 View Post
Change the name (per Heaven and Hell with Dio) as it isn't Sabbath without Bill.

Shouldnt have been Heaven and Hell without Bill also. Talking of which, why didnt Bill play drums in Heaven and Hell? cant remember the proper reason

[Zee]

I only wanted to see Iommi and Ozzy get back together creating songs, I could care less if Bill Ward is on drums. They have 3 out of 4, and in my opinion the 3 most important. Sorry Bill, i'm not broken up about this.

[Damian]

Shouldnt have been Heaven and Hell without Bill also. Talking of which, why didnt Bill play drums in Heaven and Hell? cant remember the proper reason

Officially, this was all we got. http://www.billward.com/2006/11/bill...n-heaven-hell/ Safe to say it wasn't because of an "unsignable contract", I think. We know how media-reliant he becomes in that case.

Ronnie told Revolver Magazine that "Bill was going to do it, but he had commitments that wouldn't allow him, in his mind, to tour. The next logical choice was Vinny, because Vinny populated more of those albums than Bill did. Bill did the first album, and Vinny did three after that." Geezer told Classic Rock Revisited: "Bill was involved originally. Bill was in the studio when I went over there but he didn't want to tour so he didn't go any further with it." Through other sources, I recall perhaps Tony mentioned that Bill was not "comfortable" with either the songs he would have to now learn to play, and/or playing for any singer other then Ozzy, although I think the latter point was more a condition of playing under the name of Black Sabbath only.

But whatever the reason, it was a case of "Press release with Bill" followed by "Oh, wait, Bill's not here now" for Geezer and Tony to wade through. I forgot about that issue in all of this, its not history directly repeating itself, but it is interesting.

[Jansa72]

Is the next step that Ozzy is out? He has always said that only four original guys sound right.

[Fozzy]

Cheers for that Damian!

[IRON-MaN]

Why are everyone so hung up about the health-issue? He played several tours and shows through the early 2000's, and didn't have much health-issues then. Vinny was brought along as a replacement if needed, and he didn't play at all...

Bill's health have been ALWAYS an issue ! Bill did have a serious heart attack on one of the band's rehearsals back in 1998 and to which Appice was asked to step in for the full European leg that was scheduled at the time ! now apart from the health issues , Bill haven't been an active drummer since the mid 80's , he doesn't play drums with his solo band and haven't done any massive world tours ever since till the Sabbath reunion in the late 90's , I love Bill , but physically he is quite fragile and it must be quite a stressful situation to depend on him on lengthy touring schedule ! it was one of the main reasons why he didn't join Black Sabbath reunion with Ronnie in 2007 ( apart from other musical differences as well !) , and just to let you know how is quite a shadow of once one of the greatest rock drummers of all time , Bill actually has his own tech on the side of the stage on all shows counting the 'one' for him in case he messes around !

I love Bill to death , but I never foreseen him to work a heavy schedule as expected on this reunion , but the LEAST what I was really looking for , was to have him do the album and play a couple of major tours and dates whenever possible ! remember that Iommi's and Geezer's in particular studio recording ethics have grown to a whole new more efficient and professional level compared to the rest , they now write songs much faster , more efficient , more tight , and their overall sound have grown MASSIVELY compared to the old days.

[Billy Underdog]

remember that Iommi's and Geezer's in particular studio recording ethics have grown to a whole new more efficient and professional level compared to the rest.

That pro-tool cut-&-paste drum-machine way of writing and recording are in no way professional, it's just the easiest possible way to do it. Having a band in a room working out the album as a unit, that's the professional (and only real) way to do it...

But that wasn't really the issue here. As i said in that statement you quoted, after the heart-attack there hasn't been any more healt issues. That experience made him change his lifestyle to a much healthier one, so he's probably in a much better shape now than in the late 90's. And a heart-attack doesn't mean death. Bobby Blitz of Overkill had a stroke onstage a few years ago, but he's still thrashing away to the max.

So he has a drum-tech to count the one for him, so what? Most drummers in such huge bands use click-tracks nowadays. Bill's (still) so good he doesn't even need that.
He played drums regularly from the mid 60's till the early 80's. You don't just loose your talent just like that, even though it's been 30 years.

Stop hating Bill and turn your hatred towards those who've failed him!

[IRON-MaN]

That pro-tool cut-&-paste drum-machine way of writing and recording are in no way professional, it's just the easiest possible way to do it. Having a band in a room working out the album as a unit, that's the professional (and only real) way to do it...

But that wasn't really the issue here. As i said in that statement you quoted, after the heart-attack there hasn't been any more healt issues. That experience made him change his lifestyle to a much healthier one, so he's probably in a much better shape now than in the late 90's. And a heart-attack doesn't mean death. Bobby Blitz of Overkill had a stroke onstage a few years ago, but he's still thrashing away to the max.

So he has a drum-tech to count the one for him, so what? Most drummers in such huge bands use click-tracks nowadays. Bill's (still) so good he doesn't even need that.
He played drums regularly from the mid 60's till the early 80's. You don't just loose your talent just like that, even though it's been 30 years.

Stop hating Bill and turn your hatred towards those who've failed him!

Billy as I stated before , I LOVE BILL WARD , and I want him to be on the album and tour , but just neglecting the fact that Bill's health and musical differences with the band might not possibly be another HUGE factor is complete denial , bottom line is , we REALLY don't know what was the main reason behind this , I believe Bill would have been there if he was contributing very well to the song writing process or influencing the band as did in the good old days !

Don't forget that all 4 already jammed and worked on 7-8 potential songs as stated on their 11-11-11 conference last year , so I guess they've been working on it as a group as far as I understood , they probably had a drummer with them as well in the UK at the time Bill was dropped from the picture , I can't recall any recent albums by either Iommi or Geezer were they used copy & paste pro-tool technique as you've mentioned , they used Pro Tools on TDYK but as I remember properly , Ronnie said in an interview that they never really used any of those copy/paste stuff and that actually the songs where recorded as a band live together in the studio !

Last point , as much as I'm disappointed that Bill is not there , I find it pointless to hate or argue about the whole situation , its over , its done , I'm personally getting over and much looking forward the new album and hopefully worldwide tour to follow , I just hope they would pick someone powerful and would be able to bring a lot of versatility to the music , from all the drummers that Sabbath members worked with , I would love to see 'Kenny Aronoff' do the album and tour , he bought a whole new life and diversity to Iommi's 'Fused' ( just check 'I Go Insane'!) , its not going to happen though since Kenny is already touring with Chickenfoot and we're more likely to have Ozzy's drummer stepping into that position (at least for the upcoming live shows).

[rar]

I'll be echoing some sentiments already posted above, but I think the members had a general concern about Bill's physical ability to play that probably began in earnest when he had his heart attack while rehearsing for the original reunion. Even though he has played marvelously since then, that is a hard concern to bypass, especially financially-speaking. Carrying a spare drummer on tour is not a road they wanted to cross again, I imagine. Yet this was not a tour for Tony and Bill, just a three-off for old time's sake and to maybe spark some fire for the new release.

From that standpoint, adding the kick-off in Bill's hometown of Birmingham to the stew, I have to say that there had to be more to this decision. Bill's first two "public pleas" regarding his unsignable contract stung the band, forced them to deflect questions, Sharon had to defend herself, Ozzy defended himself. By attempting twice before to force Black Sabbath's hand by using the fans and media, Bill also put them in the position of having to ask themselves "Do we really want to go and play with someone who just put our dirty laundry out there like that?". If what Bill wrote in his third salvo is true, that the band relented and offered him a small role with a chance for possibly more down the road, it reads more like forcing Bill to admit he was wrong. Let's face it, he was either going to get paid nothing or chump change, certainly not more then his "take it or leave it" deal, which would have guaranteed him not only the three Black Sabbath shows, but possibly the Ozzy and Friends tour also. I think that this midnight hour-dealing was phony. It gave Black Sabbath the best of both worlds, they saved some face by "offering" Bill a spot on tour, but they also knew he would never agree to do it, so they didn't actually have to pull the trigger. Again, we only know Bill's side of things right now, but I'm sure there is more to it all.

While we're on the topic of Bill's side of things, I have to say I was yet again disappointed that he mentioned this "unsignable" contract, yet puts out all kinds of personal information about himself, his prep work, what Sabbath's management said and did, and never disclosed what they think he was worth. OK, that is private info to some, fine. But everything else he has relayed about this saga isn't any of our business, either, yet he did it to curry favor among us all, to help fight for him. Why air all of your dirty laundry, all of it relaying info that is sympathetic to your side, and then purposely and repeatedly keep the wallet off the clothesline? To me, its because the amount of money he was offered probably did NOT help his case. If it would have benefited his image among the fans, Bill would have put it out there. Again, just my speculation, but I think Bill felt that some people would point the greedy finger at him if he disclosed his salary. Two or three grand a night (I have no idea what the number really is) is chump change for some, but if that was the number, you can call it unfair but maybe not without thinking that its still a four-figure payday for two hours work in front of thousands who love you. For a 64-year old drummer who has been out of commission for several years now. I guess we will never know because Bill will talk all about an unfair deal but never tell us HOW unfair. And now here comes the real kicker for me:

It was all about being paid fair, right? Getting more money to reflect Bill's contributions to the band, taking a stand for respect. And yet Bill just put out a statement that said that he would play for FREE.

"The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download."

Way to stick to your guns, Bill. Playing for free is not a problem NOW, it was only a problem for the last six months or so. And then the letter ends with yet another "door is still open" tease, one last hope for the fans to rally around his plight and make Black Sabbath whole again. He kept blaming the management, not Tony, Geezer or Ozzy directly. I bet that makes them feel so much better that only their wives and longtime friends were being slagged off and absolutely none of that mud would land on them somehow. Bet they can't wait to play with Bill again now. Well Bill, you're right, the door IS open. Except its a trapdoor, and you fell right through it after you hung yourself. I want to see Bill Ward again in Black Sabbath, and I know how important to the band's history he is, but right now I really wish he had just taken the original deal, especially since he would have played for even less money now.

Since I last posted in this thread, I've been thinking about this whole situation some more. You basically said what I've come to conclude, however, as well as pointed out a few things I hadn't even noticed.

In the past, Bill has been known to be a bit of a whiner. I don't know that all of you will agree with me on that, and I know it won't be a popular opinion, but think about the past. Bill has said things like he left Sabbath because it wasn't the same without Ozzy (way back in the day). Okay fine, and I can see how that plays to our sympathies as well - I'd have loved for the band to stay together. But the guys went on to make some great music after Ozzy. Don't get me wrong, I recognize how nostalgia can make one wish for "how it was in the old days". I've done the same thing myself. But at the same time, it's not only once he's done this. And his heart attack is obviously something to have sympathy for, but he's dropped out of tours more than once.

My point is, I'm sure the original contract would've been just fine, and I wouldn't say that he's in such a situation to keep this up anymore. In the end, he appeals to us by saying he'd love to play with the original line-up (since he's said so before) but I don't think he honestly cares that much about it. I won't say I'm siding with the other guys, because managers can be dicks too, but I'm not entirely with Bill on this either. There's definitely two sides to the story, and I think both sides have their issues.

Will I see Sabbath live at this point? Maybe. I don't know. But I'm not impressed with them.

[AngryHeart]

Is the next step that Ozzy is out? He has always said that only four original guys sound right.

Well said.

[Monster Boy]

I don't know if anybody else has linked to Geezer's statement about the Birmingham gig in this thread, so here, check it out:

http://www.bravewords.com/news/183783

The interesting thing to me is that the proceeds from the concert go to charity, so they're all playing this show for free, maybe that has something to do with them asking Bill to play for free? Bill didn't mention that.

EDIT: it doesn't say that all proceeds go to charity, so maybe they will be making some scratch off this.

[Daaark]

Just some common sense here:

Seems like Bill's well being is at issue, and he's letting pride get in the way. Maybe he couldn't pass the required physical to be insured. Perhaps he was warned against any strenuous activity. He was in bad shape 20 years ago. He's only been in decline since then. IMO, he didn't look too good on the 2005 footage. No one is healthier than they were 20 years ago. People here are talking like these guys are still young, healthy men. They guys are in their 60s, and each of them is lucky for every new birthday that comes around. Any one of them can drop any day now.

This may also explain why he didn't participate in the H&H reunion, and why he they only played short sets of similar songs in the last few years. Because the other 3 never seem to have that problem. Tony and Geezer can do their entire catalog and write new material. Ozzy can also do new material, and brings back a few different classics into his set list for each of his tours. Only when Bill is part of the equation do they revert to the War Pigs / Iron Man / Paranoid one trick pony.

I'm sure they didn't expect him to play "for free". They wanted him to come out without signing anything, try his hand at playing a show, and see how he felt afterwards. Makes sense. This seems to be about whether or not he needs another back-up drummer there to cover for him. He must feel that having another drummer there is the part of the deal that doesn't "respect him as an equal member of the band" (or however he put it).

It appears that they tried to include him as best they could, but Bill wants to go 100% or not at all, even though he may not be capable. Everyone knows it, he just may not want to admit it. Maybe he simply doesn't approve of his replacement personally.

Anyways, hopefully tomorrow's show goes well.

[LawlessGreed]

Initially I backed Ward 100%, but the more I read into it, the more I think its a case of Bill just not being up to the job.

This is NOT a pure nostalgic reunion like previous years, we're actually getting a new album out of this! Musical integrity must come first and it seems like that's what the band is doing. Sometimes you have to be ruthless. If Bill Ward can't cut it, then theres absolutely no point in him being there. My guess was that he was offered a contract that they knew he wouldn't accept. The other three don't want to come out and humiliate Ward by saying 'The guy just cant play any more' so instead have kept silent, while Ward has rallied the fans on his side.

I last saw them in 2005 fully expecting Ozzy to be the weak link, but actually Bill sounded sluggish as hell and looked to be struggling at times. This was the warm up show before Download. First show of the tour. Whilst the other three have kept active since 1980, how much playing has Bill done? How much playing has Bill done since 2005 even?! Whilst the other three have multiple world tours and albums under their belts since 05, Bill doesn't seem to have been doing much to stay active. I love the guy and I wished it had worked out, but it obviously wasn't to be. I'll be at the show in Birmingham supporting Tony, Geezer and Ozzy. It amazes me the amount of hate they're getting right now without people knowing the full story.

"Theres more to the picture, than meets the eye....."

[KazolOrajia]

Initially I backed Ward 100%, but the more I read into it, the more I think its a case of Bill just not being up to the job.

This is NOT a pure nostalgic reunion like previous years, we're actually getting a new album out of this! Musical integrity must come first and it seems like that's what the band is doing. Sometimes you have to be ruthless. If Bill Ward can't cut it, then theres absolutely no point in him being there. My guess was that he was offered a contract that they knew he wouldn't accept. The other three don't want to come out and humiliate Ward by saying 'The guy just cant play any more' so instead have kept silent, while Ward has rallied the fans on his side.

I last saw them in 2005 fully expecting Ozzy to be the weak link, but actually Bill sounded sluggish as hell and looked to be struggling at times. This was the warm up show before Download. First show of the tour. Whilst the other three have kept active since 1980, how much playing has Bill done? How much playing has Bill done since 2005 even?! Whilst the other three have multiple world tours and albums under their belts since 05, Bill doesn't seem to have been doing much to stay active. I love the guy and I wished it had worked out, but it obviously wasn't to be. I'll be at the show in Birmingham supporting Tony, Geezer and Ozzy. It amazes me the amount of hate they're getting right now without people knowing the full story.

"Theres more to the picture, than meets the eye....."

These are my thoughts exactly.

[mds]

Initially I backed Ward 100%, but the more I read into it, the more I think its a case of Bill just not being up to the job.

This is NOT a pure nostalgic reunion like previous years, we're actually getting a new album out of this! Musical integrity must come first and it seems like that's what the band is doing. Sometimes you have to be ruthless. If Bill Ward can't cut it, then theres absolutely no point in him being there. My guess was that he was offered a contract that they knew he wouldn't accept. The other three don't want to come out and humiliate Ward by saying 'The guy just cant play any more' so instead have kept silent, while Ward has rallied the fans on his side.

I last saw them in 2005 fully expecting Ozzy to be the weak link, but actually Bill sounded sluggish as hell and looked to be struggling at times. This was the warm up show before Download. First show of the tour. Whilst the other three have kept active since 1980, how much playing has Bill done? How much playing has Bill done since 2005 even?! Whilst the other three have multiple world tours and albums under their belts since 05, Bill doesn't seem to have been doing much to stay active. I love the guy and I wished it had worked out, but it obviously wasn't to be. I'll be at the show in Birmingham supporting Tony, Geezer and Ozzy. It amazes me the amount of hate they're getting right now without people knowing the full story.

"Theres more to the picture, than meets the eye....."

Maybe, maybe not. This wasn't pitched on 11/11/11 as Black Sabbath with special guest and part-time drummer Bill Ward. It was presented as a full-on reunion with a new album and tour with all four members. If the other three had concerns about Bill's health, stamina, chops, or whatever it should have all been sorted out prior to the announcement.

[E7474]

I wish I had come up with this but I can't take credit for it, but its funny.

Maybe the band will consider a name change like they did with Dio, so they don't confuse the fans.
I'm thinking "Back Stabbath" has a nice ring to it.

[Paulie 88]

I'm thinking "Back Stabbath" has a nice ring to it.

There's a long-time Sab cover band w that name.

In the meantime:

God bless Bill Ward,
PAULIE

[LawlessGreed]

Maybe, maybe not. This wasn't pitched on 11/11/11 as Black Sabbath with special guest and part-time drummer Bill Ward. It was presented as a full-on reunion with a new album and tour with all four members. If the other three had concerns about Bill's health, stamina, chops, or whatever it should have all been sorted out prior to the announcement.

Things change though. They jumped the gun with that press conference, no doubt. Perhaps they thought Bill would get it together eventually. But likewise Bill should never have gone to the press conference if he wasn't happy with the contract. Two sides to every story. It absolutely amazes me that people are only looking at one side here and running with it. Same with the pictures. How do we know Bill didn't say to management "You dont want me in the band? Don't use my likeness on your site or on merchandise" ? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know right now...instead we get people on facebook having meltdowns over this.

Its the internet age.... people with no perspective just going mental about everything without even having the full facts...

[brisk]

I will be providing a live update of the show on my twitter for anyone who cares: https://twitter.com/#!/thrutheeyes

[Totentanz]

Is the next step that Ozzy is out? He has always said that only four original guys sound right.

This! I thought he built his legal challenge for the Sabbath name on that viewpoint.

[LouiST]

Now the only thing we can do is probably just to hope that Tony can pass through the cancer, that he still has energy, and that Cluefetos can do a decent job(if permitted by the others).

[KazolOrajia]

Since the Birmingham gig is all said and done, I've decided to post my overall take on the drummer fiasco.

Obviously Black Sabbath is my favourite band, and I think Bill Ward should have been a part of this reunion, and it sucks that he isn’t. Despite this, I will still be buying the new Black Sabbath album and seeing them when, and this is pessimistic of me, but if they come to my area on tour next year. These are my reasons:

First, if I ignore this reunion, I may very likely be missing out on my only chance to see my favourite band live, in any form, as well as the only chance to experience a new album during my lifetime. My full obsession with Sabbath didn’t begin until after Dio’s passing, so I never got to see Heaven & Hell and I wasn’t aware when The Devil You Know was released. Second, I’ve always separated business and music in my mind. Sabbath is my favourite band because of their music, not their business practices. After all, this isn’t the first time Bill’s been screwed over by Sabbath, and Bill isn’t the first Sabbath member to be screwed over (Tony Martin anyone?). And finally, when Geezer Butler responded with Black Sabbath’s side of the story, A lot of people were saying, ‘Geezer’s lying, he just wants money!’ How do you know that? Unless you’re an all-seeing mind reader, you have no way of knowing if he’s telling the truth or not. Why can’t Bill be lying? And I’m not saying he is. I really believe that this was all caused because the band communicated through representatives and lawyers instead of just sitting down and talking. Which sucks, but it’s not really any one person or one group’s fault. It was a series of unfortunate events that spiralled downward. It shouldn’t have happened, but it did.

I don’t think things are as malicious as they’re being made out to be, and I’ll continue to support both Bill Ward AND Black Sabbath without any guilt either way. I do have one last point to make, about Tommy Clufetos. Personally I think he’s a fine drummer and he’ll do a great job, but that’s not the point. I know how badly he’s going to be slammed by fans for this, and he already has been, and I just want to say, don’t be mad at him. None of this is his fault; it’s not like he said, ‘Hey, let’s kick out Bill Ward so I can be the drummer!’ No! He’s a great guy, and he’s just doing his job. It’s not fair to attack him for something he had nothing to do with. And besides, what musician would turn down the chance to play with Black Sabbath? I sure as Hell wouldn’t. So don’t take your anger out on him.

Also, I listened to a recording of the Birmingham o2 concert from last night, and Sabbath sounded just fucking awesome. Ozzy’s voice was in great condition, they performed an amazing setlist, and Clufetos did just fine. I’ve always liked his drumming anyway, but he really played well with the guys.

So, that’s it. I’d just like to say good luck to Bill Ward, whatever his future endeavours will be, and wish the best of health to Tony Iommi.

[Billy Underdog]

A thought just dropped into my head. Last time they reunited, they played a few shows without Bill (Ozzfest), then he came back into the team and it resulted in an album (well, live-album atleast) and several tours and shows. Maybe this is just history kinda repeating itself..?


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