Not vocally though.
Have you watched the version of King Crimson's 'Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part II') they have on there? The bassist is on fire in that one.
Last edited by The Wretch; 05-31-2012 at 05:05 AM.
Since anger and complaining aren't having any effect, I think it's time to resort to merciless ridicule.
Is anyone close to these guys capable of shaming them? This whole thing is remedial, after all.
Buy them all crayons and coloring books. Maybe some rubber duckies for bath time.
Buy them matching woobies with pink initials.
Seriously... It's well known that these guys are probably the worst communicators in the history of the planet. Without invasive and relentless intervention of some kind, it ain't gonna happen.
You think shaming them will get you waht you want? It'll just piss 'em off. They did leave the door open for Bill and the album, but for the two other live shows, I think you need to forget it. Someone posted this in a comment on my site. I wonder if this isn't too far from the truth.
That text was posted in a comment on the main website. You can find it there, not sure which post it's attached to at the moment, though,.Donnington, 2005. Bill Ward uses a teleprompter on the near-official DVD to help him remember what to play play, and when. It was a sad sight (especially with Ozzy already crutched-up on teleprompters himself), but I think it speaks volumes as regards what Bill’s abilities may be 7 years later.
Sorry, Bill, loved your playing back in the day, and I’m a big nostalgic fan of the original Sabbath line-up (it’s what I grew up on). But I seriously can’t help but wonder whether it’s your ability to play these days that is ultimately under heavy scrutiny & concern. As much as I *want* the original magic back, perhaps it truly is unattainable now. And yeah, it hurts me to have to write this, but I think we all need to face some hard facts and not get lost in romantic notions of glory days.
Hate to raise the heavy hand, but I have to say that I think — of the original four — only Geezer and Iommi can actually still play and “feel” the music at the most raw, fundamental level, and just play from the soul.
I'd love to see Bill live, but Tommy does a great job, and is probably the better choice for touring with long sets. If or when I see Sabbath, I'll be most excited to see Iommi and Geezer. They're the most important members of Black Sabbath now.
To safeguard my philosophy until my dying breath
I transfer from reality into a living dead
I empathize with enemies until we’re dying right
With God and Satan at my side, from darkness will come light
OK... Shaming is the wrong word. I think the situation might need something along the lines of the "Congratulations on your new baby" story. Bump the whole thing into a less serious mode. Have a laugh or two. I would say "share a few pints" but no... noooooo.
I don't blame them for the teleprompters. Everyone freaks out when a band fucks up these days, and there are 1000 cell phone cameras out there to capture it from every angle.
And, this is a message board, and I usually go on the assumption that bullshit is welcome. It's what I'm dealin'.
Also, regarding what I posted. I WANT Bill there. He should be there. But, it's entirely possible this whole thing isn't about money, and the money story is being pushed out there. Who knows? I could be talking out my ass - but I'm starting to get the feeling there's more to this than the dueling press releases we've been seeing back and forth.
And also, why not just use Vinny Appice?
To paraphrase Martin Popoff in his Collectors' Guide To Heavy Metal (in his scathing review of Iron Maiden's The X Factor):
"You know what? Sometimes creativity can just dry up."
That goes for Bill too. I think the guy is one of the most distinctive drummers in history, because of his jazz/swing groove, but facts are facts.
He hasn't been a steady, working musician for decades...since he left the Heaven And Hell tour.
He's 64 years old.
He's got a long list of health problems, from substance abuse to heart trouble. It's a wonder the guy's alive to talk about it.
It may just be time for Bill to hang up his sticks, at least professionally. That's no shame.
Back when Cozy Powell joined the band, fulfilling a longtime wish of mine, I thought "#2 would be Aynsley Dunbar." I still think so. He's British, he's a hell of a drummer (listen to the first three Journey albums)...and he cowrote "Warning!"
WRT drum machines...they've come a long way. Back in the '80s I absolutely hated the sound of the then-popular Simmons Drums (a big reason why Rush's Grace Under Pressure was so disappointing to me). The first album I heard with drum machines on it that actually sounded good was Gary Moore's Wild Frontier. Aussie James "Jimbo" Barton programmed all the drum bits on there, and when I saw Gary live with Eric Singer on drums, Eric didn't vary too much from the drum patterns on the album. They've got better and better since then. They still don't replace a live drummer, but for songwriting/studio work you'd be surprised what can be done with them now. Hell, the little Radio Shack synthesiser my wife bought me a few years ago has a very basic drum box on it and it suits my needs just fine!
He is not here. He has risen!
If you are making experimental stuff with the drum machine that isn't physically possible for a real drummer, that's a different story (one quite unrelated to Sabbath).
"There in the middle of the circle he stands, searching, seeking, with just one touch of his trembling hand, the answer will be found.
Daylight waits while the old man sings, heaven help me! And then like the rush of a thousand wings, it shines upon the one. And the day has just begun..." (1975)
-Ronnie James Dio, Rest in Peace
"In the summer days we flew to the sun, on melting wings, but the seasons changed to fast, leave us all behind... Blind..." (1969)
- Jon Lord, Rest in Peace
My band's Reverbnation page:
I program parts sympathetic to the riffs coming out of Tony's guitars within my workstation. Very little quantising or cut and paste goes on. The parts are NEVER intended to be the template for the drummer, just a means to keeping a vibe for Tony and myself to put guitars and bass, and sometimes keyboards to so as to present full sounding demos to whoever we are currently working with.
The drum programming certainly does NOT appear in any way on the finished product.
I just wanted to clear that up as there has been some misinformation banded around various forums.
A computer can be a nice tool to use when putting down idčas, but it will never replace a good jammin'-situation anyway. So why not use the real deal if you're capable of it? Say, i know about this drummer, one of my faves actually.. He's currently without any gigs, so i'd imagine he'd be up for the job for real... And yeah, you all know who i'm talking about...
" All we are saying is let's eat some brains" John Lennon 2008
I disagree with the idea that jamming is the only way to come up with good material. Beethoven didn't jam with anybody to come up with the 9th symphony for instance. More relevant to rock bands, what of King Crimson, Frank Zappa, David Bowie for example. One main writer, damn good music. I've been in a few bands. Sometimes songs came out of jams, lots of times songs came from one member. Good and bad came from both situations.
And it's evident that when, first they were trying a song-writing duo, and later when it was just that one guy dictating what was going to happen, it all went down the drains...
As for KC; do you really think Fripp had it all planned, what Bruford was going to do at this and that time? No, that's really a band who's been relying on jamming to make tunes to the N'th degree... Do you really imagine Fripp coming into rehearsal saying: "OK, lads, i've got this riff, and i've already made the structure of the song". John Wetton might have been able to do something like that, but i don't think it would've been well received. That song was called Starless...
Zappa and Bowie are solo-artists, so that's a whole other matter, but even with them, yeah, they might've written a song, but how the song was going to sound was a band-effort.
" All we are saying is let's eat some brains" John Lennon 2008
Ahh, maybe I misunderstood. Still though, using a drum machine to help you keep time and present your idea to the band doesn't mean that the drummer will have to play exactly what the drum machine did. Vinny says that's the way it went on TDYK, but just like with Bill Ward, just cause he says it doesn't mean that's really the way it really went down. What is it with drummers and people believing everything they say anyways? You're a drummer, maybe you can fill us in
And as Appice himself said, he felt a little constricted by having to replicate the pre-programmed drums on TDYK. And by God, he was going to let himself loose and take back what he missed when he did Kill Devil Hill. Well.. He still sound like a drum machine to my ears.
As a drummer, guitarist and bassist i'll have to say, whether the song is pre-written "Dylan"-style or jammed out in the rehearsal-room doesn't really matter, couse no matter what, the band playing will have their distinct sound to it anyway. Bowie & Zappa were two good examples. Lou Reed, Iggy Pop are two others (that just popped into my mind, can't say why.. ) that have been on their own, with different bands, and each time they sound different.. Dylan too, for that matter.
Take Bowie as an example; He's really not changed that much since the early 70's (blank error 80's), but he's been smart enough to change his back-line when he felt it was due. Which is (the way i see things) one of the reasons he's still (was 10 years ago) a relevant artist...
I know i'm rambling, but i'm trying to get a point across, and my final shot will be; What would Dylan be without The Band?
Ed: And yeah, i'm a drummer! Belive everything i say!!! Women from Venus, Men from Mars. Drummers from Pluto... Long live Keith Moon
Last edited by Billy Underdog; 09-07-2012 at 04:40 PM.
" All we are saying is let's eat some brains" John Lennon 2008
I don't understand why these people try to stir the s**t years later!
---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------
^^^And drummers always tell the truth for some reason, like we discussed
-Too many flames, with too much to burn, and life's only made of paper. Oh how I need to be free of this pain but it goes over and over and over again-
Good memory, Billy. I've interviewed Vinny in person during the last Heaven and Hell tour and he spun much more of a team player approach to the studio sessions. In the remark you are referring to, it read to me like maybe Vinny was having a bad day or was in a pissy mood or something. In any case, we continue to be very fortunate to have Mike's contributions to this thread and we look forward to his posts. Its like we have our own "sideline reporter" in the studio!
From what I've seen of Vinny live, he seems to be under the impression that heavy music requires extra hard drum hits. That may explain why his drum parts were agonizingly slow on TDYK - he was "winding up" for every super-duper hard hit!
The question of whether Vinny recorded the drums on TDYK were lame , naive and quite insulting to say the least !
as stated by Mike.X and by several other in depth interviews at the time (read Popoff's Black Sabbath FAQ) , the songs were written and structured by Ronnie , Geezer and Tony and then they went to the studio with Vinny to jam the songs and see where they go from there ! Vinny might have been a bit disappointed because how they worked the songs on Mob Rules and Dehumanizer sessions were apparently much more different , on Dehumanizer the 4 of them worked things from scratch in the studio where they started jamming , record what ever they had that day and then Vinny were kind of helping by editing those tapes and bringing the best parts and ideas to build on , it was more organic and I guess everything started from jamming together and bringing new ideas on the spot , in TDYK Iommi , Ronnie , Geezer bought different ideas on individual CDs , the 3 of them listened to all those CDs and started picking up which ideas they would like to work on , obviously drum machines are usually used on such initial demos for reference and for timing as well as mentioned before , Vinny was not told how to play or WHAT to play exactly , but from 3 new songs they recorded back on 'The Dio Years' its mentioned on different reviews that Ronnie , Iommi and Geezer were looking for a 'less is more' approach on the drum parts , I guess it was clear for Vinny they didn't want him to overplay on either those 3 songs and TYDK a couple of years later , and maybe that's why he didn't feel so comfortable or played it more safe than usual on the record !
Many people here seems to underrate Vinny's work on most sabbath albums , yes he does have a completely different approach to Bill's , and while Ward is more dynamic , tasteful , versatile , interactive and more orchestrated , I would give Vinny tons of credit for laying a hard heavy foundation for Geezer's and Iommi's wall of sounds , its really hard to lay down a beat that locks well with Tony and Geezer, its hard to keep up with these guys in the studio and live but Appice did some brilliant job on likes of Mob Rules , Dehumanizer and on classic live albums such as Live Evil , Radio City and Neon nights ! his playing is more about serving the over all sound and feel of the song and Sabbath sound rather than just filling in the spaces , his sound and groove did fit Sabbath very well on most of the albums he got involved with.
I think I have finally accepted that Bill won't be back. I can still hope mind you. Now I just want to hear what they come up with.
My problem wasn't even who played drums in itself (after all I am a fan of all eras of the band) even though I would obviously prefer Bill, it was more that they made this grand announcement that it was the original line up, and organised shows under the pretense of it being the original Black Sabbath. Before doing that they should have made sure all members were present and correct, and that there were no problems personally, musically or financially. They must know each other, and the music business, well enough at this point to anticipate there might be issues to be ironed out.
Now I just want to see if they can bring it, and its not likely to be bad is it?
And we can always keep our fingers crossed that Bill will be brought back into the fold at some point, even if it is somewhere down the road when they are winding up.