'Substitute Drummer engaged' Tony, Ozzy and Geezer Respond

[Billy Underdog]

Oh come on. Even on TV, it's obvious. She's the ideal On-The-Verge-Of-Disaster-And-Wants-To-Take-You-With-Her.

I've been helpless against it my entire life. As you can imagine, I'm a really happy guy.

Hmmm... Each to his own taste, i guess.

[DaveDeals]

Hmmm... Each to his own taste, i guess.

They always had the courtesy to get arrested alone, so I can't complain. I bet Kelly's thoughtful that way.

[Billy Underdog]

They always had the courtesy to get arrested alone, so I can't complain. I bet Kelly's thoughtful that way.

That's one way to look at it.

[DaveDeals]

That's one way to look at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

[turch118]

I know I've posted it before, but how about this guy for a drummer?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXF04U5h-c

[MobRules]

I know I've posted it before, but how about this guy for a drummer?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXF04U5h-c

It's amazing, every Japanese cover of any English/American/Canadian band i've ever heard has surpassed the skill level of the native whites. They're just better at things. It's fact.

[The Wretch]

Not vocally though.

Have you watched the version of King Crimson's 'Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part II') they have on there? The bassist is on fire in that one.

[DaveDeals]

Since anger and complaining aren't having any effect, I think it's time to resort to merciless ridicule.

Is anyone close to these guys capable of shaming them? This whole thing is remedial, after all.

Buy them all crayons and coloring books. Maybe some rubber duckies for bath time.

Buy them matching woobies with pink initials.

Seriously... It's well known that these guys are probably the worst communicators in the history of the planet. Without invasive and relentless intervention of some kind, it ain't gonna happen.

[Joe Siegler]

You think shaming them will get you waht you want? It'll just piss 'em off. They did leave the door open for Bill and the album, but for the two other live shows, I think you need to forget it. Someone posted this in a comment on my site. I wonder if this isn't too far from the truth.

Donnington, 2005. Bill Ward uses a teleprompter on the near-official DVD to help him remember what to play play, and when. It was a sad sight (especially with Ozzy already crutched-up on teleprompters himself), but I think it speaks volumes as regards what Bill’s abilities may be 7 years later.

Sorry, Bill, loved your playing back in the day, and I’m a big nostalgic fan of the original Sabbath line-up (it’s what I grew up on). But I seriously can’t help but wonder whether it’s your ability to play these days that is ultimately under heavy scrutiny & concern. As much as I *want* the original magic back, perhaps it truly is unattainable now. And yeah, it hurts me to have to write this, but I think we all need to face some hard facts and not get lost in romantic notions of glory days.

Hate to raise the heavy hand, but I have to say that I think — of the original four — only Geezer and Iommi can actually still play and “feel” the music at the most raw, fundamental level, and just play from the soul.

That text was posted in a comment on the main website. You can find it there, not sure which post it's attached to at the moment, though,.

[KazolOrajia]

You think shaming them will get you waht you want? It'll just piss 'em off. They did leave the door open for Bill and the album, but for the two other live shows, I think you need to forget it. Someone posted this in a comment on my site. I wonder if this isn't too far from the truth.



That text was posted in a comment on the main website. You can find it there, not sure which post it's attached to at the moment, though,.

That comment pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. Bill's playing at Donnington was pretty weak. He was following a teleprompter, and it seems like he was barely keeping up with the rest of the band, and it took a lot of effort for him. Who knows what his playing is like now, and if he's even been keeping up with practicing all this time.

I'd love to see Bill live, but Tommy does a great job, and is probably the better choice for touring with long sets. If or when I see Sabbath, I'll be most excited to see Iommi and Geezer. They're the most important members of Black Sabbath now.

[DaveDeals]

You think shaming them will get you waht you want? It'll just piss 'em off.

It isn't about getting what I want. I'm not going to be able to get to a show.

OK... Shaming is the wrong word. I think the situation might need something along the lines of the "Congratulations on your new baby" story. Bump the whole thing into a less serious mode. Have a laugh or two. I would say "share a few pints" but no... noooooo.

I don't blame them for the teleprompters. Everyone freaks out when a band fucks up these days, and there are 1000 cell phone cameras out there to capture it from every angle.

And, this is a message board, and I usually go on the assumption that bullshit is welcome. It's what I'm dealin'.

[Joe Siegler]

It isn't about getting what I want. I'm not going to be able to get to a show.

OK... Shaming is the wrong word.

Was your words, not mine.

Also, regarding what I posted. I WANT Bill there. He should be there. But, it's entirely possible this whole thing isn't about money, and the money story is being pushed out there. Who knows? I could be talking out my ass - but I'm starting to get the feeling there's more to this than the dueling press releases we've been seeing back and forth.

[MobRules]

Fukushima was a direct result of their ability to screw things up. They might set high standards in copying others but it's still not an inventive culture. A Japanese Black Sabbath would be lacking in feel.

I disagree, they brought Anime to a worldwide audience. That's pretty inventive. Even if I don't like it, it's still something. Fukushima was arrogance on their part, I agree. Also, most of our electronic products are from Japan, as are robotics. Don't believe "made in America" when it comes to electronics. Most of it comes from Japan. They're plenty inventive a culture.

[Jordan]

I wonder why they cut him out of all the pictures in the gallery section, but left him in these pictures...? http://www.blacksabbath.com/history.html

[invisible man]

I know I've posted it before, but how about this guy for a drummer?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXF04U5h-c

Several bands (metal and otherwise) contemporary to Black Sabbath have taken to raiding members from tribute bands: Yes took their lead singer from a Yes tribute band when the original singer became too ill, The Grateful Dead offshoot band Furthur took the lead guitarist from a Dead tribute band, and didn't Judas Priest replace Halford with a singer from a Priest tribute band for a while? I want to say Aerosmith did something like this too, but my memory may be failing me here (and I really dislike Aerosmith). The Doors of the 21st Century recently did some gigs at the Whiskey with a singer from a tribute band. On a certain level it makes sense, the tribute players know the music well enough to gig and produce a simulacrum of the original band's material. On the other hand it's kind of weird vibes.

[Jordan]

And also, why not just use Vinny Appice?

[Pink Led Rush]

And also, why not just use Vinny Appice?

I would be down with Vinnie, or at least any other previous Sabbath drummer. *cough* Bobby Rondinelli *cough*

[DiosSword]

To paraphrase Martin Popoff in his Collectors' Guide To Heavy Metal (in his scathing review of Iron Maiden's The X Factor):

"You know what? Sometimes creativity can just dry up."

That goes for Bill too. I think the guy is one of the most distinctive drummers in history, because of his jazz/swing groove, but facts are facts.

He hasn't been a steady, working musician for decades...since he left the Heaven And Hell tour.

He's 64 years old.

He's got a long list of health problems, from substance abuse to heart trouble. It's a wonder the guy's alive to talk about it.

It may just be time for Bill to hang up his sticks, at least professionally. That's no shame.

Back when Cozy Powell joined the band, fulfilling a longtime wish of mine, I thought "#2 would be Aynsley Dunbar." I still think so. He's British, he's a hell of a drummer (listen to the first three Journey albums)...and he cowrote "Warning!"

WRT drum machines...they've come a long way. Back in the '80s I absolutely hated the sound of the then-popular Simmons Drums (a big reason why Rush's Grace Under Pressure was so disappointing to me). The first album I heard with drum machines on it that actually sounded good was Gary Moore's Wild Frontier. Aussie James "Jimbo" Barton programmed all the drum bits on there, and when I saw Gary live with Eric Singer on drums, Eric didn't vary too much from the drum patterns on the album. They've got better and better since then. They still don't replace a live drummer, but for songwriting/studio work you'd be surprised what can be done with them now. Hell, the little Radio Shack synthesiser my wife bought me a few years ago has a very basic drum box on it and it suits my needs just fine!

[Billy Underdog]

They still don't replace a live drummer, but for songwriting/studio work you'd be surprised what can be done with them now. Hell, the little Radio Shack synthesiser my wife bought me a few years ago has a very basic drum box on it and it suits my needs just fine!

There's a big difference between rehearsing/recording demos in your bedroom and releasing a major league album...

[Josef_K]

There's a big difference between rehearsing/recording demos in your bedroom and releasing a major league album...

I'd say if you are really patient you could probably take a good drum machine and create some quite interesting patterns. However, it's like having a great session drummer and telling him EXACTLY how to play each beat of the whole song. Imo, that could never be the better option. If you actually have the ability to map out great, interesting drum patterns and fills like that, you might as well play the damn drums yourself ^^

If you are making experimental stuff with the drum machine that isn't physically possible for a real drummer, that's a different story (one quite unrelated to Sabbath).

[mike.x]

I'd say if you are really patient you could probably take a good drum machine and create some quite interesting patterns. However, it's like having a great session drummer and telling him EXACTLY how to play each beat of the whole song. Imo, that could never be the better option. If you actually have the ability to map out great, interesting drum patterns and fills like that, you might as well play the damn drums yourself ^^

If you are making experimental stuff with the drum machine that isn't physically possible for a real drummer, that's a different story (one quite unrelated to Sabbath).

I have to say with regard to the whole "Drum Machine" discussion that have appeared over the last 6 months - we don't use them!!

I program parts sympathetic to the riffs coming out of Tony's guitars within my workstation. Very little quantising or cut and paste goes on. The parts are NEVER intended to be the template for the drummer, just a means to keeping a vibe for Tony and myself to put guitars and bass, and sometimes keyboards to so as to present full sounding demos to whoever we are currently working with.

The drum programming certainly does NOT appear in any way on the finished product.

I just wanted to clear that up as there has been some misinformation banded around various forums.

Cheers
Mike

[Billy Underdog]

I have to say with regard to the whole "Drum Machine" discussion that have appeared over the last 6 months - we don't use them!!

I program parts sympathetic to the riffs coming out of Tony's guitars within my workstation. Very little quantising or cut and paste goes on. The parts are NEVER intended to be the template for the drummer, just a means to keeping a vibe for Tony and myself to put guitars and bass, and sometimes keyboards to so as to present full sounding demos to whoever we are currently working with.

The drum programming certainly does NOT appear in any way on the finished product.

I just wanted to clear that up as there has been some misinformation banded around various forums.

Cheers
Mike

There's a big difference between rehearsing/recording demos in your bedroom and releasing a major league album...

My point exactly. Exept when the drummer is more or less forced to replicate the drum-machine. Take Vinnie Appice, f.x. A generally boring drummer, but it really didn't get any better when he was told to copy that machine.

A computer can be a nice tool to use when putting down idèas, but it will never replace a good jammin'-situation anyway. So why not use the real deal if you're capable of it? Say, i know about this drummer, one of my faves actually.. He's currently without any gigs, so i'd imagine he'd be up for the job for real... And yeah, you all know who i'm talking about...

[Monster Boy]

I disagree with the idea that jamming is the only way to come up with good material. Beethoven didn't jam with anybody to come up with the 9th symphony for instance. More relevant to rock bands, what of King Crimson, Frank Zappa, David Bowie for example. One main writer, damn good music. I've been in a few bands. Sometimes songs came out of jams, lots of times songs came from one member. Good and bad came from both situations.

[Vynlsol]

And yeah, you all know who i'm talking about...

John Weathers?

[Billy Underdog]

I disagree with the idea that jamming is the only way to come up with good material. Beethoven didn't jam with anybody to come up with the 9th symphony for instance. More relevant to rock bands, what of King Crimson, Frank Zappa, David Bowie for example. One main writer, damn good music. I've been in a few bands. Sometimes songs came out of jams, lots of times songs came from one member. Good and bad came from both situations.

Not my point at all, exept it's a fact that was the way this particular band wrote their classic material.
And it's evident that when, first they were trying a song-writing duo, and later when it was just that one guy dictating what was going to happen, it all went down the drains...

As for KC; do you really think Fripp had it all planned, what Bruford was going to do at this and that time? No, that's really a band who's been relying on jamming to make tunes to the N'th degree... Do you really imagine Fripp coming into rehearsal saying: "OK, lads, i've got this riff, and i've already made the structure of the song". John Wetton might have been able to do something like that, but i don't think it would've been well received. That song was called Starless...

Zappa and Bowie are solo-artists, so that's a whole other matter, but even with them, yeah, they might've written a song, but how the song was going to sound was a band-effort.

John Weathers?

I love you

[Monster Boy]

Ahh, maybe I misunderstood. Still though, using a drum machine to help you keep time and present your idea to the band doesn't mean that the drummer will have to play exactly what the drum machine did. Vinny says that's the way it went on TDYK, but just like with Bill Ward, just cause he says it doesn't mean that's really the way it really went down. What is it with drummers and people believing everything they say anyways? You're a drummer, maybe you can fill us in

[Billy Underdog]

Still though, using a drum machine to help you keep time and present your idea to the band doesn't mean that the drummer will have to play exactly what the drum machine did. Vinny says that's the way it went on TDYK, but just like with Bill Ward, just cause he says it doesn't mean that's really the way it really went down. What is it with drummers and people believing everything they say anyways? You're a drummer, maybe you can fill us in

Yeah, as i said, a drum-machine can be wonderful for putting down ideas, demos, or even do the whole thing, if that's what you want. Alot of good electronica use nothing but a good programmed drum-machine. Hell, even Dimmu Borgir has used them when they felt it was right ( not saying it was good, just saying...)

And as Appice himself said, he felt a little constricted by having to replicate the pre-programmed drums on TDYK. And by God, he was going to let himself loose and take back what he missed when he did Kill Devil Hill. Well.. He still sound like a drum machine to my ears.

As a drummer, guitarist and bassist i'll have to say, whether the song is pre-written "Dylan"-style or jammed out in the rehearsal-room doesn't really matter, couse no matter what, the band playing will have their distinct sound to it anyway. Bowie & Zappa were two good examples. Lou Reed, Iggy Pop are two others (that just popped into my mind, can't say why.. ) that have been on their own, with different bands, and each time they sound different.. Dylan too, for that matter.

Take Bowie as an example; He's really not changed that much since the early 70's (blank error 80's), but he's been smart enough to change his back-line when he felt it was due. Which is (the way i see things) one of the reasons he's still (was 10 years ago) a relevant artist...

I know i'm rambling, but i'm trying to get a point across, and my final shot will be; What would Dylan be without The Band?

Ed: And yeah, i'm a drummer! Belive everything i say!!! Women from Venus, Men from Mars. Drummers from Pluto... Long live Keith Moon

[mike.x]

Yeah, as i said, a drum-machine can be wonderful for putting down ideas, demos, or even do the whole thing, if that's what you want. Alot of good electronica use nothing but a good programmed drum-machine. Hell, even Dimmu Borgir has used them when they felt it was right ( not saying it was good, just saying...)

And as Appice himself said, he felt a little constricted by having to replicate the pre-programmed drums on TDYK. And by God, he was going to let himself loose and take back what he missed when he did Kill Devil Hill. Well.. He still sound like a drum machine to my ears.

As a drummer, guitarist and bassist i'll have to say, whether the song is pre-written "Dylan"-style or jammed out in the rehearsal-room doesn't really matter, couse no matter what, the band playing will have their distinct sound to it anyway. Bowie & Zappa were two good examples. Lou Reed, Iggy Pop are two others (that just popped into my mind, can't say why.. ) that have been on their own, with different bands, and each time they sound different.. Dylan too, for that matter.

Take Bowie as an example; He's really not changed that much since the early 70's (blank error 80's), but he's been smart enough to change his back-line when he felt it was due. Which is (the way i see things) one of the reasons he's still (was 10 years ago) a relevant artist...

I know i'm rambling, but i'm trying to get a point across, and my final shot will be; What would Dylan be without The Band?

Ed: And yeah, i'm a drummer! Belive everything i say!!! Women from Venus, Men from Mars. Drummers from Pluto... Long live Keith Moon

That's not how I remember it going down at all. He was given freedom to play things how he wanted. The original drums on "Follow the Tears" we're programmed double time with a groove - listen to the final version and it's a doom fest. the only thing that was asked of him was not to play too many 64th note triplet Tom fills as they can be a little repetitive.

I don't understand why these people try to stir the s**t years later!

---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

My point exactly. Exept when the drummer is more or less forced to replicate the drum-machine. Take Vinnie Appice, f.x. A generally boring drummer, but it really didn't get any better when he was told to copy that machine.

A computer can be a nice tool to use when putting down idèas, but it will never replace a good jammin'-situation anyway. So why not use the real deal if you're capable of it? Say, i know about this drummer, one of my faves actually.. He's currently without any gigs, so i'd imagine he'd be up for the job for real... And yeah, you all know who i'm talking about...

He wasn't told to copy the drum machine!

[Billy Underdog]

He wasn't told to copy the drum machine!

Ofcourse i'm not going to argue with you, but he said so himself.

[Monster Boy]

^^^And drummers always tell the truth for some reason, like we discussed

[Charger]

That's not how I remember it going down at all. He was given freedom to play things how he wanted. The original drums on "Follow the Tears" we're programmed double time with a groove - listen to the final version and it's a doom fest.

Indeed so. Follow The Tears is absolutely stellar! A true doom fest indeed. Without a doubt a song that has taken it's place in history as a true Black Sabbath classic!

[Billy Underdog]

^^^And drummers always tell the truth for some reason, like we discussed

Yes, goddamnit, we do!!! Tommy Lee has never once lied his entire life.

[Damian]

Good memory, Billy. I've interviewed Vinny in person during the last Heaven and Hell tour and he spun much more of a team player approach to the studio sessions. In the remark you are referring to, it read to me like maybe Vinny was having a bad day or was in a pissy mood or something. In any case, we continue to be very fortunate to have Mike's contributions to this thread and we look forward to his posts. Its like we have our own "sideline reporter" in the studio!

[Pink Led Rush]

Good memory, Billy. I've interviewed Vinny in person during the last Heaven and Hell tour and he spun much more of a team player approach to the studio sessions. In the remark you are referring to, it read to me like maybe Vinny was having a bad day or was in a pissy mood or something. In any case, we continue to be very fortunate to have Mike's contributions to this thread and we look forward to his posts. Its like we have our own "sideline reporter" in the studio!

I agree, glad to have him here and confirm that Vinny played those parts and was not told to play like the drum machine.

[WallOfSleep]

From what I've seen of Vinny live, he seems to be under the impression that heavy music requires extra hard drum hits. That may explain why his drum parts were agonizingly slow on TDYK - he was "winding up" for every super-duper hard hit!

[IRON-MaN]

The question of whether Vinny recorded the drums on TDYK were lame , naive and quite insulting to say the least !
as stated by Mike.X and by several other in depth interviews at the time (read Popoff's Black Sabbath FAQ) , the songs were written and structured by Ronnie , Geezer and Tony and then they went to the studio with Vinny to jam the songs and see where they go from there ! Vinny might have been a bit disappointed because how they worked the songs on Mob Rules and Dehumanizer sessions were apparently much more different , on Dehumanizer the 4 of them worked things from scratch in the studio where they started jamming , record what ever they had that day and then Vinny were kind of helping by editing those tapes and bringing the best parts and ideas to build on , it was more organic and I guess everything started from jamming together and bringing new ideas on the spot , in TDYK Iommi , Ronnie , Geezer bought different ideas on individual CDs , the 3 of them listened to all those CDs and started picking up which ideas they would like to work on , obviously drum machines are usually used on such initial demos for reference and for timing as well as mentioned before , Vinny was not told how to play or WHAT to play exactly , but from 3 new songs they recorded back on 'The Dio Years' its mentioned on different reviews that Ronnie , Iommi and Geezer were looking for a 'less is more' approach on the drum parts , I guess it was clear for Vinny they didn't want him to overplay on either those 3 songs and TYDK a couple of years later , and maybe that's why he didn't feel so comfortable or played it more safe than usual on the record !

Many people here seems to underrate Vinny's work on most sabbath albums , yes he does have a completely different approach to Bill's , and while Ward is more dynamic , tasteful , versatile , interactive and more orchestrated , I would give Vinny tons of credit for laying a hard heavy foundation for Geezer's and Iommi's wall of sounds , its really hard to lay down a beat that locks well with Tony and Geezer, its hard to keep up with these guys in the studio and live but Appice did some brilliant job on likes of Mob Rules , Dehumanizer and on classic live albums such as Live Evil , Radio City and Neon nights ! his playing is more about serving the over all sound and feel of the song and Sabbath sound rather than just filling in the spaces , his sound and groove did fit Sabbath very well on most of the albums he got involved with.

[The Wretch]

I think I have finally accepted that Bill won't be back. I can still hope mind you. Now I just want to hear what they come up with.

My problem wasn't even who played drums in itself (after all I am a fan of all eras of the band) even though I would obviously prefer Bill, it was more that they made this grand announcement that it was the original line up, and organised shows under the pretense of it being the original Black Sabbath. Before doing that they should have made sure all members were present and correct, and that there were no problems personally, musically or financially. They must know each other, and the music business, well enough at this point to anticipate there might be issues to be ironed out.

Now I just want to see if they can bring it, and its not likely to be bad is it?

And we can always keep our fingers crossed that Bill will be brought back into the fold at some point, even if it is somewhere down the road when they are winding up.