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rar
09-13-2006, 07:36 PM
OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song. Also...um...The Eternal Idol I think it is, is also good. As for the Battle of Tyr-Odin's Court-Valhalla, the only one I favour is Valhalla, the others are too boring for me, sorry for saying. Also, I didn't see what the big deal was about Anno Mundi (The Vision) I'll give it another listen. (yes I found out I had Tyr after all)

I'll be inspecting (I guess if that's an ok word to use for it lol) some more TM era, as I now have all of it. Some songs I just won't warm up to, but hopefully I'll find more good ones.

David86
09-13-2006, 08:21 PM
It's always good to find music you like! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nightwing
09-13-2006, 08:40 PM
The cool thing about Anno Mundi is the chunking of the guitar, and then the cool key/organ part middle of song and Cozy's drumminng. Great song.

gunman42782
09-13-2006, 11:19 PM
It took me a long time to warm up to Tony Martin, but I do like the music now. My favorite of the Martin era is Cross Purposes.

Freddy the O
09-14-2006, 01:53 AM
Try Virtual Death for a bit of oldschool Black Sabbath-sludginess. It's pretty different from most of the TM stuff, but it's excellent.

Ray Rules
09-14-2006, 02:32 AM
You should try Immaculate Deception.. it's SO powerful!

Niklas
09-14-2006, 05:10 AM
Cardinal Sin /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Freddy the O
09-14-2006, 05:15 AM
Oh yeah, and I Witness is quite good as well. Would have made a great concert opener.

UnderTheSun
09-14-2006, 09:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You should try Immaculate Deception.. it's SO powerful!

[/ QUOTE ]

SO filler. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
No you should listen to something really powerful like Cross of Thorns! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ray Rules
09-14-2006, 09:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should try Immaculate Deception.. it's SO powerful!

[/ QUOTE ]

SO filler. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
No you should listen to something really powerful like Cross of Thorns! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed! Cross Of Thorns is PERFECT! Awesome riff, shreding bass lines, killer drums, and a brilliant vocal performance!

Psycho Man
09-14-2006, 10:14 AM
I love to say this...I told ya so...

its only a matter of time till you're beating yourself up for the posts of the past

UnderTheSun
09-14-2006, 10:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I love to say this...I told ya so...

its only a matter of time till you're beating yourself up for the posts of the past

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it happends to everyone. Just look at my post history heh.

Ray Rules
09-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Ank look mine... I was one of the biggest bashers of Tony Martin, and now I workship the guy!

UnderTheSun
09-14-2006, 10:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Ank look mine... I was one of the biggest bashers of Tony Martin, and now I workship the guy!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck with the workshipping /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif haha

Purgatory
09-14-2006, 11:43 AM
Up until recently I was a(Ozzy,Dio)only fan,but that all changed as I now like Tony Martin and I even like Glen Hughes and Rey Gillen.The only one that I still can't stand is Ian Gillan.

Ray Rules
09-14-2006, 11:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Up until recently I was a(Ozzy,Dio)only fan,but that all changed as I now like Tony Martin and I even like Glen Hughes and Rey Gillen.The only one that I still can't stand is Ian Gillan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rey Gillen is Ray Gillen's brother? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Freddy the O
09-14-2006, 11:48 AM
I dunno, might be related to that Ian Gillian-guy!

rar
09-14-2006, 02:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should try Immaculate Deception.. it's SO powerful!

[/ QUOTE ]

SO filler. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
No you should listen to something really powerful like Cross of Thorns! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed! Cross Of Thorns is PERFECT! Awesome riff, shreding bass lines, killer drums, and a brilliant vocal performance!

[/ QUOTE ]
I have listened to Cross of Thorns. I do like it. I can't say I've heard the shredding bass lines, but do point them out. I've also listened to I Witness and I enjoy it, but not much else on Cross Purposes that I have listened to. I'm doing homework now, and I always like music in the background. Since I've listened to all the other stuff as much as I have, I may as well take a break. Keep in mind, I still stand by some of what I said before. I feel I will always prefer Ozzy and Dio eras to TM. But I am warming up to it, so I'll be able to say I enjoy ALL of Sabbath's history as a whole (which always includes exclusions)

Ashley Dalby
09-14-2006, 08:56 PM
Cloak And Dagger
Night Wing
Devil And Daughter
Some Kind Of Woman
Evil Eye
Dying For Love

Those are 6 favourite Martin songs. It doesnt sound like you've heard Headless Cross, if not I'd suggest it as your next listen.

rar
09-14-2006, 09:00 PM
I've heard it, like I said I have them all. Are you referring to the song or the album? If it's the song, it's an alright song. the album, im not too sure about. isn't it kind've satanist lyrics?

Ashley Dalby
09-14-2006, 09:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard it, like I said I have them all. Are you referring to the song or the album? If it's the song, it's an alright song. the album, im not too sure about. isn't it kind've satanist lyrics?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard that said many times, I am sure Sabbath has to. I wouldn't say the lyrics are too satanist at all. Dark? Yes, Morbid? Yes. But isn't this Black Sabbath?

Ray Rules
09-14-2006, 09:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard it, like I said I have them all. Are you referring to the song or the album? If it's the song, it's an alright song. the album, im not too sure about. isn't it kind've satanist lyrics?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard that said many times, I am sure Sabbath has to. I wouldn't say the lyrics are too satanist at all. Dark? Yes, Morbid? Yes. But isn't this Black Sabbath?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is Backstreet Kids /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MarcStitz
09-14-2006, 10:38 PM
Black Sabbath is a warning about satanism. And there eh' to me. Headless Cross lyrics are so fucking cheesy, it ruins the songs.

MarcStitz
09-14-2006, 10:42 PM
BTW, I would warm up to TYR album first, then, if you really love Black Sabbath (album) then you must listen to Cloak and Dagger.

Prezuiwf
09-15-2006, 12:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You should try Immaculate Deception.. it's SO powerful!

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason I always felt like this song sounded like a Tyr outtake. Just listen to the guitar part when TM goes "Deceeeeptioooooon."

However, filler it is not... it's still a good song.

RLP4ever
09-15-2006, 02:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song. Also...um...The Eternal Idol I think it is, is also good. As for the Battle of Tyr-Odin's Court-Valhalla, the only one I favour is Valhalla, the others are too boring for me, sorry for saying. Also, I didn't see what the big deal was about Anno Mundi (The Vision) I'll give it another listen. (yes I found out I had Tyr after all)

I'll be inspecting (I guess if that's an ok word to use for it lol) some more TM era, as I now have all of it. Some songs I just won't warm up to, but hopefully I'll find more good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Et tu Rar?"... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif..How can you even utter such a shocker, you trojan horse, you traitor.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nelson.gif

Jokes apart, I don't know how very 'warmed' up you are by now buddy, but TM-era albums still leave me iceberg cold with boredom and total apathy. I've long ago given away all of my TM-era records, except 'Cross Purposes', and today I'm willing to give 'CP' away too.

I've sometimes pointed out on these boards before, in the various thread discussions on the topic, exactly how I feel about Martin-fronted Sabbath era. Excepting just a handful of songs, I still think of those latter records as some of the most exceedingly vapid, predictable and safety-first in style and content to the point of being border-line 'generic' in the worst sense of the term, and just complete disposable drivel to my ears. And just to clarify this for the last time, my distaste for that era is not confined to TM alone. He certainly isn't a terrible singer, no way. I just never liked his style, the drossy lyrics and delivery and his vibes turn me off big-time..But it's also about other things; just the overall music, songs, Iommi's mostly uninspiring, underwhelming, so uncool guitar-playing. The infectious emotion, the sheer variety, the heart-stopping intensity, a sense of adventure and dare of the Ozzy-era had all long gone. All of it. What the band gave us instead was a series of factory-manufactured, "FDA-approved" Metal-Lite records to buy off the shelves: no different from the regular toothpaste, the decaf coffee or tepid beer you might reluctantly buy when you got nothing better on offer(or you don't know any better)..

I've already copped a few of the cheerleaders cum defence attorneys of Martin-era Sabbath out here that get all incredibly irate and seem to revel in often taking everything posted on this topic, way too personally. And rar, you were the one that once pointed out how the boards seem to have undergone a steady 'takeover' by the TM fans. Warm up as much you will, but don't get that hot about TM that you forget you love Ozzy's Sabbath most /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rover
09-15-2006, 03:42 AM
Been gone for what, three days, and look what's goin' on in the forums...
[ QUOTE ]

OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song.
...


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately rar, the world doesn't revolve around me or you, so everything we say here is just personal preference. Glad you found at least something good about a batch of albums you kept slamming time and time again: preferences may change. However, it's not like the world is about to end. But wait, here's something...

[ QUOTE ]

"Et tu Rar?"... ..How can you even utter such a shocker, you trojan horse, you traitor...
...


[/ QUOTE ]
Let's just say I agree with none of the words that followed this (but I do appreciate the style nevertheless). There's no use in any argument, it's been told, retold and re-re-re-retold time and again. I just suppose that myself and you dude are wearing different kinds of earplugs. And that's what causes our "polar opinions". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

"Ozzy's Sabbath", what a joke. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eternal Idol
09-15-2006, 06:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song. Also...um...The Eternal Idol I think it is, is also good. As for the Battle of Tyr-Odin's Court-Valhalla, the only one I favour is Valhalla, the others are too boring for me, sorry for saying. Also, I didn't see what the big deal was about Anno Mundi (The Vision) I'll give it another listen. (yes I found out I had Tyr after all)

I'll be inspecting (I guess if that's an ok word to use for it lol) some more TM era, as I now have all of it. Some songs I just won't warm up to, but hopefully I'll find more good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not even going to touch this one ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

rar
09-15-2006, 02:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song. Also...um...The Eternal Idol I think it is, is also good. As for the Battle of Tyr-Odin's Court-Valhalla, the only one I favour is Valhalla, the others are too boring for me, sorry for saying. Also, I didn't see what the big deal was about Anno Mundi (The Vision) I'll give it another listen. (yes I found out I had Tyr after all)

I'll be inspecting (I guess if that's an ok word to use for it lol) some more TM era, as I now have all of it. Some songs I just won't warm up to, but hopefully I'll find more good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Et tu Rar?"... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif..How can you even utter such a shocker, you trojan horse, you traitor.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nelson.gif

Jokes apart, I don't know how very 'warmed' up you are by now buddy, but TM-era albums still leave me iceberg cold with boredom and total apathy. I've long ago given away all of my TM-era records, except 'Cross Purposes', and today I'm willing to give 'CP' away too.

I've sometimes pointed out on these boards before, in the various thread discussions on the topic, exactly how I feel about Martin-fronted Sabbath era. Excepting just a handful of songs, I still think of those latter records as some of the most exceedingly vapid, predictable and safety-first in style and content to the point of being border-line 'generic' in the worst sense of the term, and just complete disposable drivel to my ears. And just to clarify this for the last time, my distaste for that era is not confined to TM alone. He certainly isn't a terrible singer, no way. I just never liked his style, the drossy lyrics and delivery and his vibes turn me off big-time..But it's also about other things; just the overall music, songs, Iommi's mostly uninspiring, underwhelming, so uncool guitar-playing. The infectious emotion, the sheer variety, the heart-stopping intensity, a sense of adventure and dare of the Ozzy-era had all long gone. All of it. What the band gave us instead was a series of factory-manufactured, "FDA-approved" Metal-Lite records to buy off the shelves: no different from the regular toothpaste, the decaf coffee or tepid beer you might reluctantly buy when you got nothing better on offer(or you don't know any better)..

I've already copped a few of the cheerleaders cum defence attorneys of Martin-era Sabbath out here that get all incredibly irate and seem to revel in often taking everything posted on this topic, way too personally. And rar, you were the one that once pointed out how the boards seem to have undergone a steady 'takeover' by the TM fans. Warm up as much you will, but don't get that hot about TM that you forget you love Ozzy's Sabbath most /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I'm not betraying you, lol. i know you were kidding but I figured i'd point that out anyway. this is no team of Ozzy fans vs. TM fans. Also, I HAVE indeed pointed out that it's being overrun by TM fans, but there's no problem in that. Sometimes they're just a little hard on OUR era. But that's also their amount of opinion. I've changed recently in dealing with people and what they say. I no longer care as much. The only thing that will bug me is if someone tries to force their opinion onto others, but that doesn't happen too often. I still think there are various songs in the TM era that are bland and boring, because in some cases there is too little instrumentation. sometimes, anyway, and other times it's just not too good. I do like the Shining though, seriously the part where Tony says "Rise Up!" and it's like doubletracked, it sounds really cool and I had it stuck in my head last night lol. There's no shame in me liking any TM era. But I know I will always like Ozzy era best, then Dio era, then Gillan, just because of the quality of the music. I've never said I hated Tony Martin. He has a great voice. Just the music that was written in his time just doesn't fit with me.

rar
09-15-2006, 02:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Been gone for what, three days, and look what's goin' on in the forums...
[ QUOTE ]

OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song.
...


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately rar, the world doesn't revolve around me or you, so everything we say here is just personal preference. Glad you found at least something good about a batch of albums you kept slamming time and time again: preferences may change. However, it's not like the world is about to end. But wait, here's something...

[ QUOTE ]

"Et tu Rar?"... ..How can you even utter such a shocker, you trojan horse, you traitor...
...


[/ QUOTE ]
Let's just say I agree with none of the words that followed this (but I do appreciate the style nevertheless). There's no use in any argument, it's been told, retold and re-re-re-retold time and again. I just suppose that myself and you dude are wearing different kinds of earplugs. And that's what causes our "polar opinions". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

"Ozzy's Sabbath", what a joke. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay let me say something here, I never said the world revolved around me. I was hoping you'd take it like people above like Psycho Man took it. What I was referring to was that the TM fans say I should give it a chance, and I had already, but I listened to the Shining again, hearing it was a good song, and I discovered it truly is good. I was not meaning to insult anybody.

I'm not going to comment on the second part of the quote.

rar
09-15-2006, 02:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song. Also...um...The Eternal Idol I think it is, is also good. As for the Battle of Tyr-Odin's Court-Valhalla, the only one I favour is Valhalla, the others are too boring for me, sorry for saying. Also, I didn't see what the big deal was about Anno Mundi (The Vision) I'll give it another listen. (yes I found out I had Tyr after all)

I'll be inspecting (I guess if that's an ok word to use for it lol) some more TM era, as I now have all of it. Some songs I just won't warm up to, but hopefully I'll find more good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not even going to touch this one ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean?

MarcStitz
09-15-2006, 02:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Been gone for what, three days, and look what's goin' on in the forums...
[ QUOTE ]

OK before you TM diehards all jump for joy at my recent discovery, it's not a big discovery. I now know, however, that the Shining is a good song.
...


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately rar, the world doesn't revolve around me or you, so everything we say here is just personal preference. Glad you found at least something good about a batch of albums you kept slamming time and time again: preferences may change. However, it's not like the world is about to end. But wait, here's something...

[ QUOTE ]

"Et tu Rar?"... ..How can you even utter such a shocker, you trojan horse, you traitor...
...


[/ QUOTE ]
Let's just say I agree with none of the words that followed this (but I do appreciate the style nevertheless). There's no use in any argument, it's been told, retold and re-re-re-retold time and again. I just suppose that myself and you dude are wearing different kinds of earplugs. And that's what causes our "polar opinions". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

"Ozzy's Sabbath", what a joke. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay let me say something here, I never said the world revolved around me. I was hoping you'd take it like people above like Psycho Man took it. What I was referring to was that the TM fans say I should give it a chance, and I had already, but I listened to the Shining again, hearing it was a good song, and I discovered it truly is good. I was not meaning to insult anybody.

I'm not going to comment on the second part of the quote.

[/ QUOTE ]Forget Rar, Rover just bashed people who likes Ozzy era sabbath.

rar
09-15-2006, 03:19 PM
I don't know. What I mean with the comments about the overrunning TM fans is that it's like it's against the rules to like Ozzy. Stop bashing Ozzy fans! We've never said we hate Tony Martin's voice, or that he was monotone (people hate Ozzy's voice, they say Dio's voice is monotone.) I've just noticed it's like they stick up for the underdog and put everyone else down, and its unfair to those who like those people. we recognize Tony's range, please just be nice and stop saying how much you can't stand Ozzy's or Dio's voice! I mean once you can say you prefer Tony Martin to the others, but it's not necessary to say how much you hate it!!!

MarcStitz
09-15-2006, 03:27 PM
Totally agree with you rar, metal isn't a genre to show off who has the greatist voice or the greatist vocal performance. If you do care about vocal range, start listening to Hip Hop. I could care less if Ozzy doesn't have greater vocal range like Tony Martin or Dio. He is still #1 in my book the greatist metal singer ever. Yeah, I said it. So let the bashing begin. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ray Rules
09-15-2006, 03:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
We've never said we hate Tony Martin's voice, or that he was monotone (people hate Ozzy's voice, they say Dio's voice is monotone.) I've

[/ QUOTE ]

What?.. Sorry bro, but that's what we most listen! That Tony don't know how to sing ,that he don't have stage presence, that he is monotone, and that his records aren't real Sabbath.

Tha Beast
09-15-2006, 03:38 PM
Take into consideration that The Shining was written while Bill and Geezer were present. Keeping taht in mind, I'd put my money on it that many of the tracks from TEI were crafted during the same sessions that produced The Shining. My Point? my point is that's why so many of the "riffs" on TEI are classic Sabbath. The rythym section was "stiffened" up by Singer mostly and Daisley's bass was recorded horribly. Had Bill and Geezer stuck it out TEI could've been the "come back" record. TEI has several elements of a classic album and not one of them is due to Tony Martin's presence.

Headless and Tyr are difficult records to get into, they certainly require a taste that is polar opposite to the first 10 to 15 years of Sabbath's existance. It wasn't so much that the band progressed as it was that only a single original member was left and for those of you that believe Iommi=Sabbath...the lackluster of Headless, Tyr and Forbidden disprove that theory.

On another note...after years of trying to swallow the Martin era Sabbath I gave Scream a shot, out of curiosity and have to admit...I was plesently surprised. Soon after, gave Martin's first solo record a shot and was convinced...Martin IS NOT the reason why Sabbath never prospered with him as a front man. Not the sole reason anyway. Now I've been listening to The Cage stuff with Mollo and although there's some filler there I still believe it to be stronger than his Sabbath material. Like many singers, Martin has the ability to write material best suited to his vocal abilities (kinda like Sammy Hagar or even Glenn Hughes). I think that whatever rut Iommi's been in for so long had an effect on Martin's performance as well and had Martin been allowed to write more of the music, those Sabbath records might've came out sounding a little better. Even Geoff's performance on Scream is better than any of his Sabbath input.

rar
09-15-2006, 03:47 PM
It's not even that. I mean, I agree that it matters more how your voice sounds with the music released than the overall talent, but I'm just saying that there's no need to put down our favourite singer just because YOU (not you but speaking to the general people who do this) dislike the work done with him. Now this site is the BLACK SABBATH website. That's what I mean, we're not rating the world's greatest singer here, we're rating who released the best work with Sabbath. And it's all one's opinion. We're not saying you like Tony because of his amazing range, maybe you do maybe you don't. But we like Ozzy because of what his work consisted of with Sabbath. I feel the same about the work with Dio. Now that's not ALL true. I dislike Walk Away, Lonely is the Word, Sins of the Father, plus some others. Not to mention things off of Technical Ecstasy (though it's not as bad as people say_) NSD, Vol. 4, SBS, MoR...

rar
09-15-2006, 03:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Take into consideration that The Shining was written while Bill and Geezer were present. Keeping taht in mind, I'd put my money on it that many of the tracks from TEI were crafted during the same sessions that produced The Shining. My Point? my point is that's why so many of the "riffs" on TEI are classic Sabbath. The rythym section was "stiffened" up by Singer mostly and Daisley's bass was recorded horribly. Had Bill and Geezer stuck it out TEI could've been the "come back" record. TEI has several elements of a classic album and not one of them is due to Tony Martin's presence.

Headless and Tyr are difficult records to get into, they certainly require a taste that is polar opposite to the first 10 to 15 years of Sabbath's existance. It wasn't so much that the band progressed as it was that only a single original member was left and for those of you that believe Iommi=Sabbath...the lackluster of Headless, Tyr and Forbidden disprove that theory.

On another note...after years of trying to swallow the Martin era Sabbath I gave Scream a shot, out of curiosity and have to admit...I was plesently surprised. Soon after, gave Martin's first solo record a shot and was convinced...Martin IS NOT the reason why Sabbath never prospered with him as a front man. Not the sole reason anyway. Now I've been listening to The Cage stuff with Mollo and although there's some filler there I still believe it to be stronger than his Sabbath material. Like many singers, Martin has the ability to write material best suited to his vocal abilities (kinda like Sammy Hagar or even Glenn Hughes). I think that whatever rut Iommi's been in for so long had an effect on Martin's performance as well and had Martin been allowed to write more of the music, those Sabbath records might've came out sounding a little better. Even Geoff's performance on Scream is better than any of his Sabbath input.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You're right about saying they haven't progressed. I mean, how can a band progress when there's only one original member present for the majority of the time? A solid arguement in that category, at least. I also agree that Headless Cross, Tyr, etc. are all opposite of what was released before them. I had forgotten, though, that Bill and Geezer were present. I hadn't even taken it into account lol

rar
09-15-2006, 03:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We've never said we hate Tony Martin's voice, or that he was monotone (people hate Ozzy's voice, they say Dio's voice is monotone.) I've

[/ QUOTE ]

What?.. Sorry bro, but that's what we most listen! That Tony don't know how to sing ,that he don't have stage presence, that he is monotone, and that his records aren't real Sabbath.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

UnderTheSun
09-15-2006, 04:28 PM
Sometimes you guys actually make these discussions sound like they are about politics or something.

When it says Black Sabbath on the record, it's a CD/Vinyl whatever, by Black Sabbath, written by Black Sabbath and released as Black Sabbath (exceptions are unofficial best-of Cd's).
That includes but are not limited to: Ozzy era, Dio era and Tony Martin era.

People might think that it is the players that is in the band that matters when it comes to what band it is. That Black Sabbath is only the four original members, but if that's the case, then Ozzy Osbourne's solo band wouldn't be the same band on all CD:s! Is Blizzard of Ozz and No More Tears both CD's from Ozzy Osbourne Band? Yes! Is Sabotage and Forbidden Black Sabbath? Yes!

Of course, the original incarnation of Black Sabbath is and will always be 69-78 and 96-??, but then remember, that even this line up have changed. When the Wakemen, and Nicholls for that matter, played keyboards on was/is it still Black Sabbath? Yes! Even if that was/is the original era there is still other Black Sabbath line ups. They are as much Black Sabbath as any other Sabbath, but it is not the original Black Sabbath.

Each singer/drummer/bassist whatever sound different and have his own style of playing. People might either dislike or like the attributes of each singer/drummer/bassist whatever, but that is opinion rather than fact.
The more you respect other peoples opinion the more they will respect yours (hopefully). Right now on this boards I think there have been three kind of blocks. The Ozzy lovers, The Martin lovers (I don't mean only people who like Martin really, but this kind of people generally like Martin era or some other more "hardcore" era) and the neutral ones (okay there is Dio diggers here to but that's much more rare). Some Martin fans might act snooty towards fans who are new into Sabbath and only heard a few songs. "Well you haven't heard the demo song The Fallen so you can't have a opinion about Black Sabbath music". That's an example, nothing that have actually been said. Then on the other hand, there is Ozzy fans who doesn't give a shit about even listening to Martin before starting to bash him (or the other eras for that sake). Nothing to do about it really, just ignore it for god's sake!

It's good with different opinions, it broadens your perspective! But just say your opinion in a good manner and not in every bloody topic!

Note: All I said in this post is my humble opinion .

MarcStitz
09-15-2006, 05:50 PM
Ok rar, you did make some pretty good points there on that last post. No aurguments there

Psycho Man
09-15-2006, 05:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I had forgotten, though, that Bill and Geezer were present. I hadn't even taken it into account lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Bill and Geezer influence Tony's guitar riffs very much

Tha Beast
09-15-2006, 05:55 PM
speaking for myself only, it's not JUST about the singers which is the intent I get with your post.

I also could care less about "what's printed on the record sleeve".

Wakeman was never an "official" member. Neither was Woodruff or Airey. The nucleus of Sabbath for the first decade WAS the original four anything after that could very well be considered as riding on the coat tails of that...even since 97.

Times change and music must change as well. My beef isn't so much JUST with Sabbath circa 1985 thru 1990 as it is with the entire genre of hard rock. That was a dismal period for hard rock in my book it didn't matter WHAT band or WHAT was written on the sleeve or WHO was singing. It was bland and it was generic across the board in my book which is why so many great bands produced some of their weakest material in that period or even disbanded all together while bands like Bon Jovi rose to fame. Sad, very sad.

Tha Beast
09-15-2006, 05:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had forgotten, though, that Bill and Geezer were present. I hadn't even taken it into account lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Bill and Geezer influence Tony's guitar riffs very much

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they do. I think believe the rest of the band has a large impact on how the songs materialize. Tony might have a riff but I'm sure it takes different shapes and morphes a little as Geezer and Bill get ahold of it. Ultimatley the overall song takes a different shape, that's kinda the point.

rar
09-15-2006, 10:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
speaking for myself only, it's not JUST about the singers which is the intent I get with your post.

I also could care less about "what's printed on the record sleeve".

Wakeman was never an "official" member. Neither was Woodruff or Airey. The nucleus of Sabbath for the first decade WAS the original four anything after that could very well be considered as riding on the coat tails of that...even since 97.

Times change and music must change as well. My beef isn't so much JUST with Sabbath circa 1985 thru 1990 as it is with the entire genre of hard rock. That was a dismal period for hard rock in my book it didn't matter WHAT band or WHAT was written on the sleeve or WHO was singing. It was bland and it was generic across the board in my book which is why so many great bands produced some of their weakest material in that period or even disbanded all together while bands like Bon Jovi rose to fame. Sad, very sad.


[/ QUOTE ]
Solid agreement. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rar
09-15-2006, 10:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had forgotten, though, that Bill and Geezer were present. I hadn't even taken it into account lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Bill and Geezer influence Tony's guitar riffs very much

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they do. I think believe the rest of the band has a large impact on how the songs materialize. Tony might have a riff but I'm sure it takes different shapes and morphes a little as Geezer and Bill get ahold of it. Ultimatley the overall song takes a different shape, that's kinda the point.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, as well. If Tony was the only writing point of the band, we wouldn't all like Sabbath quite as much. At least I wouldn't, knowing it's only one guy writing absolutely everything. One is not capable of such.

Ashley Dalby
09-15-2006, 10:54 PM
One person could write all the music, lyrics, melodies and everything, but why would you want to?

Alienating band members is like burning a bridge to your family. Those band members are supposed to mean something to you and you are supposed to have a devotion and respect for them.

Besides only one person can run out of ideas rather quickly even if every time that person opens their mouth a new idea comes out.

You become a band AS A BAND, you stick together as a band and you play together as a band, why not write as a band?

Rover
09-15-2006, 11:02 PM
I'll add my several cents here as well.
@MarcStitz:
[ QUOTE ]

Forget Rar, Rover just bashed people who likes Ozzy era sabbath.


[/ QUOTE ]
You went one step further than some of the fanboys of this forum, but think, if I ever had the intention of bashing anyone who likes that era, I would have had to trash 3/4 of the forum starting with my friend Psychophobia.

[ QUOTE ]

He is still #1 in my book the greatist metal singer ever. Yeah, I said it. So let the bashing begin.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're not going to get any, sorry. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's your "book" as you put it. In mine, Ozzy is the worst of the known singers ever. So what? It's all about different earplugs really. You hear nothing good in Tony, I hear nothing good in Ozzy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(It's going to be some bits and pieces from now, I have neither time nor wish to talk about everything that has been said here).

@Tha Beast:
[ QUOTE ]

Take into consideration that The Shining was written while Bill and Geezer were present.
...
Had Bill and Geezer stuck it out TEI could've been the "come back" record.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I got you right, therefore I'll be cautious. Do you think that any rhythm section would have been inferior to Butler/Ward? The Daisley/Singer one certainly sounded OK to me on itself. The mixing of TEI is another thing... it just left the bass on minimum for most of the songs!
Of course I'm not saying that Singer and Daisley are something out of this world, but I can name a few bass players that are better than Geezer Butler either... Roger Glover and especially Trevor Bolder for example.
I'm not sure that the "cast roster" was the reason for the problems of TEI. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Headless and Tyr are difficult records to get into, they certainly require a taste that is polar opposite to the first 10 to 15 years of Sabbath's existance.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understood this.

[ QUOTE ]

It wasn't so much that the band progressed as it was that only a single original member was left and for those of you that believe Iommi=Sabbath...


[/ QUOTE ]
I probably didn't understand this either, but it almost sounds like the only musicians in Sabbath worth anything were the members of the original lineup? Isn't assuming that only the original lineup could make any progress a bit too much?

[ QUOTE ]

the lackluster of Headless, Tyr and Forbidden disprove that theory.


[/ QUOTE ]
Opinions again dude. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think Tyr is the best Sabbath record... but again, so what?

[ QUOTE ]

I think that whatever rut Iommi's been in for so long had an effect on Martin's performance as well and had Martin been allowed to write more of the music, those Sabbath records might've came out sounding a little better.


[/ QUOTE ]
http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif
By the way, I agree that Cage albums are excellent. It would be great if Cage III album is released at some point of time. I even think Cage II is better than Cage proper.

[ QUOTE ]

Even Geoff's performance on Scream is better than any of his Sabbath input.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's because Iommi never allowed the keyboards to be anything more than background noise on most Sabbath songs (probably because he was concerned about keeping the style and sound set on the early albums). There were just a few exceptions. Naturally Geoff felt more freely on Scream where he co-wrote half of the songs and put his stamp on all of them.

@UnderTheSun:
http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif http://iommimessageboard.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/pint.gif

@Psycho Man:
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think Bill and Geezer influence Tony's guitar riffs very much


[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Although Geezer did claim that he has written 90% of music on the Sabbath albums he played on! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ray Rules
09-15-2006, 11:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
@Tha Beast:

[ QUOTE ]
Take into consideration that The Shining was written while Bill and Geezer were present.
...
Had Bill and Geezer stuck it out TEI could've been the "come back" record.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I got you right, therefore I'll be cautious. Do you think that any rhythm section would have been inferior to Butler/Ward? The Daisley/Singer one certainly sounded OK to me on itself. The mixing of TEI is another thing... it just left the bass on minimum for most of the songs!
Of course I'm not saying that Singer and Daisley are something out of this world, but I can name a few bass players that are better than Geezer Butler either... Roger Glover and especially Trevor Bolder for example.
I'm not sure that the "cast roster" was the reason for the problems of TEI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't know. Bill Ward and Geezer Butler are more classic than the rest of non-vocal Sabbath members. But actually, after listen to EVERY single album a good number of times, I really much prefer Cozy Powell to Bill Ward, and Neil Murray to Geezer Butler. I mean, if you give Forbidden a listen, check the bass lines on every track.. you will be amused, it's not like... same note a good number of times, change to other one, to other one, and than back to the first one... Neil use's a lot of melody, changing notes everytime, creating a very special groove. A proof of that is the bass lines for Shaking Of The Chains or Get A Grip. I'm not saying that they are hard to play or other shit, it's just that they are REALLY catchy! And talking about Cozy Powel, listen to Guilty As Hell And Sick And Tired - and I'm just talking about the "worst" Sabbath album.

BTW, can you guys check Guilty As Hell and say what you think about that tempo changing after 01:55 minutes, when Neil start a beautiful switch of notes and Tony sings

"Oh it makes no difference if you're the only one,
It doesn't matter when all is said and done,
Gonna feel the same, God will put the blame on you.
Oh yeah.

If I was you, If I was you,
I'd wanna see, I'd wanna see inside my head,
I'd wanna know if I was fuckin dead,
I'd wanna know what's going on,
Someone tell me the truth.

There's no fear in a fallen Angel, there's no love in a heart made of stone,
There's no truth in a heart that is screaming,
".

rar
09-15-2006, 11:15 PM
I can only comment on two things, as I only feel like commenting on two...all these quotes are not going to be replied to by me...not right now anyway, its getting late and i have this strange pain in my arm....

[ QUOTE ]

Of course I'm not saying that Singer and Daisley are something out of this world, but I can name a few bass players that are better than Geezer Butler either... Roger Glover and especially Trevor Bolder for example.


[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you're not going to list Les Claypool next/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understood this.

[/ QUOTE ]
It means that Tyr and Headless Cross are opposite everything before them.

[ QUOTE ]
I probably didn't understand this either, but it almost sounds like the only musicians in Sabbath worth anything were the members of the original lineup? Isn't assuming that only the original lineup could make any progress a bit too much?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's not what was being said. What he was saying that the members of the band couln't have progressed if they were no longer in the band, could they have? You can't say a band has progressed if 3/4 of it's original members are gone. You can say the music got better, but that's another story, and one's own opinion. We seem to all have problems with this opinion thing, it's always coming into mention.

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Although Geezer did claim that he has written 90% of music on the Sabbath albums he played on!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not exactly.

Guillesab
09-16-2006, 02:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had forgotten, though, that Bill and Geezer were present. I hadn't even taken it into account lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Bill and Geezer influence Tony's guitar riffs very much

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they do. I think believe the rest of the band has a large impact on how the songs materialize. Tony might have a riff but I'm sure it takes different shapes and morphes a little as Geezer and Bill get ahold of it. Ultimatley the overall song takes a different shape, that's kinda the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they do!!! A lot of people here says that Cross Purposes is the most "70´s" of all Martin Sabbath albums. Well, it has Geezer on the line-up... Or think about all the style changes in the Ozzy albums, with the different guitar players.
But if you listen the GZR records and the Iommi solo albums, you must recognize that Sabbath was leaded by Iommi, in the writing style at least.
Being catalogued as "Martin cheerleader", I´m gonna make a blasphemous thought here: more and more I can´t stand Headless Cross. And is not the lyrics (the most of the time I don´t understand a word).
But I Love Tyr. What´s the difference beetween HC and Tyr? Neil Murray, of course. I think his influence was decisive to make a great album like Tyr. It just my opinion. Even the HC songs sounded a lot better when they were played on the road, with Murray.

Raven Rider
09-16-2006, 02:59 PM
After I began liking Martins performance, I don't need any warm up, I just listen and is happy.

Tha Beast
09-18-2006, 09:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I got you right, therefore I'll be cautious. Do you think that any rhythm section would have been inferior to Butler/Ward? The Daisley/Singer one certainly sounded OK to me on itself. The mixing of TEI is another thing... it just left the bass on minimum for most of the songs!
Of course I'm not saying that Singer and Daisley are something out of this world, but I can name a few bass players that are better than Geezer Butler either... Roger Glover and especially Trevor Bolder for example.
I'm not sure that the "cast roster" was the reason for the problems of TEI.

[/ QUOTE ]

inferior is a strong word. I would say that chemistry wise, Ward and Butler gelled with Iommi better than any other rythym section, including Powell/Murray who I also honestly feel they performed their best work "outside" of Sabbath.

Glover hold on to root notes mostly. He's a good bass player but I've never felt that he aspired to be a great bass player. His job within Purple has always been to lay down a foundation so the others can go off on tangents and whatnot. Anotherwords, although I find him to be solid, but he's also very generic. Geezer on the other hand, having been part of a 3 piece developed a style that allowed him to play outside the box os to speak.

And I never said the the line-up was the reason the record went largely un-noticed, although the extreme revolving door and severe mangement problems did have a large impact on the results.

rar
09-18-2006, 03:51 PM
Name one song where Roger Glover shows his great bass skills, and it's slipped my mind who Trevor Bolder is...

Tha Beast
09-18-2006, 04:43 PM
Bolder I believe was in Uriah Heep.

Glenn Hughes is a more tasteful bass player than Glover is but like I said, he's never aspired to be one fo the "greats". Besides, where was he gonna go when Blackmore, Lord and Paice were running circles around him??? Someone had to anchor the whole thing.

rar
09-18-2006, 08:25 PM
true. imo, though, from what I've seen in Glover's lines, I tend to like him more. but that's just my opinion, and it has nothing to do with what's being said here. I was actually asking Rover to identify why Glover is better than Geezer.

Ray Rules
09-18-2006, 09:16 PM
I never knew that Glover played on the Martin era... so, let's get back to the topic

rar
09-18-2006, 09:23 PM
thank you Ray

Rover
09-19-2006, 07:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Name one song where Roger Glover shows his great bass skills, and it's slipped my mind who Trevor Bolder is...

[/ QUOTE ]
Been gone again for more than a day, and I suppose you can't blame me for not replying immediately.

Speaking of Glover. I love his playing in Gemini Suite, for example. Or songs like Hey Cisco. He doesn't try to steal the spotlight but I find his playing very appropriate.

Trevor Bolder is an amazing bass player. He even saves the otherwise disastrous album Conquest, and shines on most other Heep albums he played on (Bolder >>> Daisley any day of the week). Can't name a particularly good song now - I'm away from my music collection at the moment.

Heh, just been thinking - I'm wondering why liking Ozzy is considered okay and right, and people who like Tony Martin are being treated as though they are brain damaged. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

UnderTheSun
09-19-2006, 08:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, just been thinking - I'm wondering why liking Ozzy is considered okay and right, and people who like Tony Martin are being treated as though they are brain damaged. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well many feels there is the other side around.

Tha Beast
09-19-2006, 09:30 AM
Who's saying liking Ozzy is okay and liking Martin is not okay????

Had Scream been teh last Sabbath record instead of Forbidden...I'd be aching for Martin to get back with Iommi too. Scream IS more the next Sabbath record than Fused is IMO.

rar
09-19-2006, 03:39 PM
I agree on that. And don't accuse us of such things, Rover, we've never said that. You're trying to morph what was actually said. As UnderTheSun stated, we feel it's the other way around. I don't know anybody who prefers Ozzy era that has said Tony Martin is a horrid singer and anyone who likes him has brain damage. I would never say that, because I'm a strong believer in accepting everybody's opinion. This is why any speaking of saying you absolutely hate Ozzy and then listing reasons is worthless to us. It's not even Tony Martin that is out of our preference, it's just the music that was released in the era! I hope I don't have to say this again...

Rover
09-19-2006, 05:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I agree on that. And don't accuse us of such things, Rover, we've never said that. You're trying to morph what was actually said. As UnderTheSun stated, we feel it's the other way around. I don't know anybody who prefers Ozzy era that has said Tony Martin is a horrid singer and anyone who likes him has brain damage. I would never say that, because I'm a strong believer in accepting everybody's opinion. This is why any speaking of saying you absolutely hate Ozzy and then listing reasons is worthless to us. It's not even Tony Martin that is out of our preference, it's just the music that was released in the era! I hope I don't have to say this again...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, it's just a general... observation. Though I remember someone (MarcStitz probably) even drop a suggestion that those who like TM do this only because he's the underdog, as though there's nothing else about him to like. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And yes, to each his own. None of us is trying to convert anybody really.

Eternal Idol
09-19-2006, 05:47 PM
Why the sudden change in heart RAR ? Who will argue with us about Tony Martin now ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MarcStitz
09-19-2006, 06:09 PM
Swing and a miss Rover, I believe it is Tha Beast who said that. Truthfully I think he's OVERRATED. Consider if he is underrated, he should be big as Ozzy. But he isn't, and my fear is he won't be.

Rover
09-19-2006, 06:51 PM
Sorry dude, I really couldn't remember. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

He can't be overrated because most people haven't rated him for one reason: they don't know he even exists! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Which is, I think, a shame and a pity.

rar
09-19-2006, 07:30 PM
I think Marc is referring to Tony Martin's reputation on this website being an overrated one. Obviously it's impossible for TM to be overrated in the entire public's eyes because he is too unheard of. I personally don't think it's Tony Martin HIMSELF who is overrated, just the music...but I've already explained that.

To Eternal Idol, I must say it has been somewhat entertaining at some points just to post my thoughts on the entire situation, but my sole purpose was not just for you to have someone to argue with lol. This is not war. It's not something where we take sides and cannot change our minds. (BTW, I never said I didn't like Tony Martin. If I did, I apologize. I said I didn't like the music that was released in his presence) We're not a GROUP of Ozzy fanboys against the Tony Martin cheerleaders (sorry I didn't want to use fanboys again and I'm at a loss for other words. I didn't want to use worshippers....Although, I've heard of male cheerleaders...I'm not trying to insult any TM fans, so don't get that idea. I could say Ozzy cheerleaders and TM fanboys too.) All I'm saying is that we're not in big groups, trying to WIN because you can't win against someone's opinion. There could be 5 people vs. 1 and nobody would be able to win.

MarcStitz
09-19-2006, 09:17 PM
@Rover
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry dude, I really couldn't remember. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

He can't be overrated because most people haven't rated him for one reason: they don't know he even exists! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Which is, I think, a shame and a pity.

[/ QUOTE ]No problem man, we have all bad have memories.

Rover, *I* was refering to Tony Martin, I was not describing others. Though I tried to play Tony Martin stuff to people (metal heads not Ozzy heads) and they seem they don't like the music.

@rar
[ QUOTE ]
I think Marc is referring to Tony Martin's reputation on this website being an overrated one.

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly what I meant. [ QUOTE ]
Obviously it's impossible for TM to be overrated in the entire public's eyes because he is too unheard of.

[/ QUOTE ]I know that, he can open himself to the public if a.)Fire his manager and tell him to fuck off(because apperently he is making all the discisions. b.) Sign contracts to MTV. Love it or hate it, MTV is the place that make artist popular. Where are the music videos for scream? C.) Play larger venue's: Umm Ozzfest anyone? Tony I think thats your chance to hit the states you wanted to play. Besides I don't think Sharon or Ozzy will reconize you. D.) If Ozzy freaks calling Ozzy Sabbath is real Sabbath, let them called than.
Hmm I don't think your going famous like that, there is alot of project you did and don't think nobody has heard of them. Add to your setlist, promote them. Look at Ozzy, when he wen't solo after Sabbath ditch him. He didn't have a setlist full of Sabbath Songs and just put Crazy Train in. No, he almost play the entire album. If you Scream is good, play the entire album. You still think your in Sabbath, but sabbath has forgotten about you. Move on to other stuff.[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't think it's Tony Martin HIMSELF who is overrated, just the music...but I've already explained that.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes you did, but mine is different, I find his good and his music. But I feel like he doesn't fit in sabbath.
@Eternal Idol
[ QUOTE ]
Why the sudden change in heart RAR ? Who will argue with us about Tony Martin now ?

[/ QUOTE ]Where the hell have you been, you ethier have been gone away and havn't to read any argument on the thread or you didn't understand what rar is saying. When rar sign on the board, he *liked* Tony Martin voice but *dislike* the music. Now he is saying he wants to try to get in some Tony Martin songs.

Ray Rules
09-20-2006, 12:39 AM
The sad fact is that will happen with TM the same that happened with Ray... when he die, people will say how good he was, that they would never understand why he never did big, a few more lines and period, move to next case.

[ QUOTE ]
Rover, *I* was refering to Tony Martin, I was not describing others. Though I tried to play Tony Martin stuff to people (metal heads not Ozzy heads) and they seem they don't like the music.

[/ QUOTE ]
Than american people must be retarted man. Here in Brazil, where people have to cross the jungle to buy a gallon of gas ( lol ) people love TM. I've played it to some Ozzy fans and a lot of metal heads, and they all said "WOW! Who the fuck is that? This guy is FUCKING amazing!"
I think where we love him because we don't have it all, we are not used to have Sabbath every fucking year, adn watch them eating bacon.. where we saw with Dio and Tony Martin.. they had the 'guts' to came down here and play for us, as TM is the only folk from Sabbath that I know that get out to drink with his fans after the show

rar
09-20-2006, 06:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
@Rover
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry dude, I really couldn't remember. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

He can't be overrated because most people haven't rated him for one reason: they don't know he even exists! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Which is, I think, a shame and a pity.

[/ QUOTE ]No problem man, we have all bad have memories.

Rover, *I* was refering to Tony Martin, I was not describing others. Though I tried to play Tony Martin stuff to people (metal heads not Ozzy heads) and they seem they don't like the music.

@rar
[ QUOTE ]
I think Marc is referring to Tony Martin's reputation on this website being an overrated one.

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly what I meant. [ QUOTE ]
Obviously it's impossible for TM to be overrated in the entire public's eyes because he is too unheard of.

[/ QUOTE ]I know that, he can open himself to the public if a.)Fire his manager and tell him to fuck off(because apperently he is making all the discisions. b.) Sign contracts to MTV. Love it or hate it, MTV is the place that make artist popular. Where are the music videos for scream? C.) Play larger venue's: Umm Ozzfest anyone? Tony I think thats your chance to hit the states you wanted to play. Besides I don't think Sharon or Ozzy will reconize you. D.) If Ozzy freaks calling Ozzy Sabbath is real Sabbath, let them called than.
Hmm I don't think your going famous like that, there is alot of project you did and don't think nobody has heard of them. Add to your setlist, promote them. Look at Ozzy, when he wen't solo after Sabbath ditch him. He didn't have a setlist full of Sabbath Songs and just put Crazy Train in. No, he almost play the entire album. If you Scream is good, play the entire album. You still think your in Sabbath, but sabbath has forgotten about you. Move on to other stuff.[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't think it's Tony Martin HIMSELF who is overrated, just the music...but I've already explained that.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes you did, but mine is different, I find his good and his music. But I feel like he doesn't fit in sabbath.
@Eternal Idol
[ QUOTE ]
Why the sudden change in heart RAR ? Who will argue with us about Tony Martin now ?

[/ QUOTE ]Where the hell have you been, you ethier have been gone away and havn't to read any argument on the thread or you didn't understand what rar is saying. When rar sign on the board, he *liked* Tony Martin voice but *dislike* the music. Now he is saying he wants to try to get in some Tony Martin songs.

[/ QUOTE ] all very well said, Marc

Psycho Man
09-20-2006, 09:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
None of us is trying to convert anybody really.

[/ QUOTE ]

speak for yourself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

MarcStitz
09-20-2006, 12:35 PM
@Ray Rules
[ QUOTE ]
Than american people must be retarted man. Here in Brazil, where people have to cross the jungle to buy a gallon of gas ( lol ) people love TM. I've played it to some Ozzy fans and a lot of metal heads, and they all said "WOW! Who the fuck is that? This guy is FUCKING amazing!"

[/ QUOTE ]I think you misunderstood me, they don't like him for his voice, they just don't like the music. In other words they don't like Iommi's riffs.
[ QUOTE ]
I think where we love him because we don't have it all, we are not used to have Sabbath every fucking year, adn watch them eating bacon.. where we saw with Dio and Tony Martin.. they had the 'guts' to came down here and play for us, as TM is the only folk from Sabbath that I know that get out to drink with his fans after the show

[/ QUOTE ]Now tell me Ray, does Tony have the "guts" to come down to Brazil to promote his solo career? He can't come to the United States. Its not all about guts, its about Popularity. The reason Black Sabbath(Ozzy) don't come down there because they can't sell the number of tickets as they do in the states and Europe. The reason Dio and Tony come down there because of popularity. They will do anything to get there popularity up. Hanging out with fans and drinking with them is great way getting fans. Ozzy doesn't do that because he knows instead of him going to fans, the fans come to him and thats what happens when you are a big rock star. But in reality, I fear if Tony becomes big as Ozzy, he might become like Ozzy. Will he choose Los Angeles 40,000 fans instead Brazil 4,000? Well he quit hanging out with the fans and move one to the next gig? I don't know.
@rar
Thank you very much

rar
09-20-2006, 02:27 PM
....haha now that I reread your comment, Ray, no disrespect but what is gutsy about performing in Brazil? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eternal Idol
09-20-2006, 04:23 PM
@Eternal Idol
[ QUOTE ]
Why the sudden change in heart RAR ? Who will argue with us about Tony Martin now ?

[/ QUOTE ]Where the hell have you been, you ethier have been gone away and havn't to read any argument on the thread or you didn't understand what rar is saying. When rar sign on the board, he *liked* Tony Martin voice but *dislike* the music. Now he is saying he wants to try to get in some Tony Martin songs.

[/ QUOTE ] all very well said, Marc

[/ QUOTE ]

\



























Ok here we go again another winner here damn. Lets see first i have a life , i have to work , i have kids a wife , a real estate deal fell through my mother has cancer and i had to put my dog to sleep hows that for where have i been .I use this board as a escape from my everyday shit i have to deal with i dont live here like some people do , i enjoy talking to others about the passion that is Black Sabbath nothing else ! So lets all get real here Marc Spit is it ?

rar
09-20-2006, 05:31 PM
I have nothing I can say...:(

Eternal Idol
09-20-2006, 05:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have nothing I can say...:(

[/ QUOTE ]









Why not people seem to speak free here ?

MarcStitz
09-20-2006, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ok here we go again another winner here damn. Lets see first i have a life , i have to work , i have kids a wife , a real estate deal fell through my mother has cancer and i had to put my dog to sleep hows that for where have i been .I use this board as a escape from my everyday shit i have to deal with i dont live here like some people do , i enjoy talking to others about the passion that is Black Sabbath nothing else ! So lets all get real here Marc Spit is it ?

[/ QUOTE ]Hey, !@#$% you man. Im only saying my opinion and this is what I get??? I really hate people who judge other people on what other era's they like. If you like Ozzy great, if you like Tony, great. But I really hate people who bashes people who like Ozzy material more and saying they don't like others and they actually give up there free time to give the others to listen. Rar stated he likes Ozzy material over Tony and dislikes the music. He stated his opinions without starting a Ozzy vs. Tony fans and it happen thanks to people like you who thinks he is !@#$%^&* bashing Tony Martin because he likes Ozzy more than Tony. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Im really sorry to hear that your mother has cancer and had put your dog to sleep. But don't be bashing me because Im backing up rar. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Why not people seem to speak free here

[/ QUOTE ]LOOKS WHO'S !@#$%^&* TALKING HERE!! Talk free here and I get bashed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Eternal Idol
09-20-2006, 06:41 PM
Whos bashing anybody dude ? Myself and rar have had a few run ins yes and i respect his opinion like anyone else and when i said that who will argue with me about Tony Martin it was all for fun nothing negative there . I dont dislike any eras of Sabbath , so lets put the crack pipe away ang get a grip !

MarcStitz
09-20-2006, 07:03 PM
First your insulting my name and then your telling me who bashing who????????????? You think there is no negative when rar has to repeat himself over and over Im not bashing Tony Martin. Im done here.

rar
09-20-2006, 07:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok here we go again another winner here damn. Lets see first i have a life , i have to work , i have kids a wife , a real estate deal fell through my mother has cancer and i had to put my dog to sleep hows that for where have i been .I use this board as a escape from my everyday shit i have to deal with i dont live here like some people do , i enjoy talking to others about the passion that is Black Sabbath nothing else ! So lets all get real here Marc Spit is it ?

[/ QUOTE ]Hey, !@#$% you man. Im only saying my opinion and this is what I get??? I really hate people who judge other people on what other era's they like. If you like Ozzy great, if you like Tony, great. But I really hate people who bashes people who like Ozzy material more and saying they don't like others and they actually give up there free time to give the others to listen. Rar stated he likes Ozzy material over Tony and dislikes the music. He stated his opinions without starting a Ozzy vs. Tony fans and it happen thanks to people like you who thinks he is !@#$%^&* bashing Tony Martin because he likes Ozzy more than Tony. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Im really sorry to hear that your mother has cancer and had put your dog to sleep. But don't be bashing me because Im backing up rar. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Why not people seem to speak free here

[/ QUOTE ]LOOKS WHO'S !@#$%^&* TALKING HERE!! Talk free here and I get bashed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with what Marc says here. I'm not just agreeing with him because he backed me up, I happen to agree with what he has said. It's true that time and time again I've been viewed as a Tony Martin hater. Someone asked me if Tony Martin killed my dog when I was younger or something like that... Please let me set it all straight...

I DO NOT HATE TONY MARTIN! I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST TONY MARTIN OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT HE WAS IN BLACK SABBATH WHEN MUSIC WAS RELEASED THAT I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE MUCH FOR! THAT'S ALL!

Now I meant to start now arguments, or cause any anger like has been caused in result to this discussion continuously coming up throughout many threads...

rar
09-20-2006, 07:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Whos bashing anybody dude ? Myself and rar have had a few run ins yes and i respect his opinion like anyone else and when i said that who will argue with me about Tony Martin it was all for fun nothing negative there . I dont dislike any eras of Sabbath , so lets put the crack pipe away ang get a grip !

[/ QUOTE ]

True, it has been all in fun, but you're not who's been mostly assuming I've been bashing Tony Martin anyway...it's others. But in the end nobody's really got anything against each other on this board anyway. There wasn't anything negative. There's just certain points where people think I have stated that I hate Tony Martin, and I do not.

rar
09-20-2006, 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
First your insulting my name and then your telling me who bashing who????????????? You think there is no negative when rar has to repeat himself over and over Im not bashing Tony Martin. Im done here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I DO have to agree that making a little thing about Marc's name here was not too cool of a thing to do...it brought in the negative energy, which is what throughout this argument we've TRIED not to do. Again, I'm not just agreeing with Mr. Stitz because he has agreed with me, I'm saying its not cool to make fun of his name. And yes, I HAVE had to repeat myself over and over again. I can't say it has brought any effects to my hands as they're quite accustomed to typing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but it does get a bit tedious...I have an idea! Signature update, here I come!

MarcStitz
09-20-2006, 07:42 PM
Thanks for clearing it up rar, great Idea on your signature, and like to apoligized for the comment I made. Now I am done on this thread.

rar
09-20-2006, 07:45 PM
it's alright man. we can all respect that. perhaps we could all get back to what I was originally saying in this thread, folks?

Petoria000
09-20-2006, 08:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
it's alright man. we can all respect that. perhaps we could all get back to what I was originally saying in this thread, folks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you hate Les Claypool? What has he done to you?

El Lobo
09-21-2006, 01:12 AM
What the hell, this thread makes me puke. Is this really so important? Let's end the discusion and move on.

Be nice to each other boys and girls and accept that there are different tastes (it's all about that after all).

Now don't tell me chocolate sucks, because then you know NOTHING..

David86
09-21-2006, 01:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now don't tell me chocolate sucks, because then you know NOTHING..

[/ QUOTE ]

This man speaks the truth!

Ray Rules
09-21-2006, 11:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now tell me Ray, does Tony have the "guts" to come down to Brazil to promote his solo career? He can't come to the United States. Its not all about guts, its about Popularity. The reason Black Sabbath(Ozzy) don't come down there because they can't sell the number of tickets as they do in the states and Europe. The reason Dio and Tony come down there because of popularity. They will do anything to get there popularity up. Hanging out with fans and drinking with them is great way getting fans. Ozzy doesn't do that because he knows instead of him going to fans, the fans come to him and thats what happens when you are a big rock star. But in reality, I fear if Tony becomes big as Ozzy, he might become like Ozzy. Will he choose Los Angeles 40,000 fans instead Brazil 4,000? Well he quit hanging out with the fans and move one to the next gig? I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are... a little bit confused, bro. You should say 4.000 in states and 40.000 in Brazil.. I don't know if you know the facts, but everytime Iron Maiden come to Brazil, they sell 50.000, 60.000 seats in ONE night, just at my city.. Deep Purple came here last year, two nights in a row.. they sould out EVERY single ticket... Judas Priest came here with Whitesnake.. and they sould out EVERY single ticket... Paul Dianno come here every 4, 5 months, and he sell's out every ticket every time. Glenn Hughes sould out every time he came to Brazil.
Megadeth sould out their tickets too.. in a stadium. Do you know a band named Overkill, who never made that big on States?.. So, they sould out when they came here. Actually, Iron Maiden make more money here in Brazil than in America.

MarcStitz
09-21-2006, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I know about that. But I wasn't talking about those bands, I was talking about Sabbath and Tony Martin.[ QUOTE ]
You should say 4.000 in states and 40.000 in Brazil

[/ QUOTE ]If thats the case, why does Sabbath ingore such place?? Besides those kind of bands will sell out 4,000 because were not into those bands. But if you say Metallica, Lamb of God, Megadeth, and Ozzfest; they won't sell out 50,000 fans in one night, tney will do it for 10 or more nights.

Ray Rules
09-21-2006, 01:09 PM
They ignore Brazil simple because they are in top fame.. every time Ozzy was down, he went to Brazil.

Ashley Dalby
09-21-2006, 01:11 PM
I think the true point of this thread has been lost

UnderTheSun
09-21-2006, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the true point of this thread has been lost

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a while ago...

UnderTheSun
09-21-2006, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the true point of this thread has been lost

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a while ago...

rar
09-21-2006, 08:40 PM
Okay then well let's start this over.


I have been trying lately to warm up to some Tony Martin era songs. I've warmed up to the Shining but it's a work in progress.

Ray Rules
09-21-2006, 10:49 PM
Bro, listen to this music: Get A Grip. Pay atention to the bass line, it's incredible! It took me 10 minutes to learn it, but it's awesome!

8bit Fighter
09-21-2006, 11:21 PM
Rusty Angels was my favorite when I started listening to Tony Martin era.

Ashley Dalby
09-21-2006, 11:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Okay then well let's start this over.

I have been trying lately to warm up to some Tony Martin era songs. I've warmed up to the Shining but it's a work in progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
All jokes, arguements, insults and whatever else aside, I hold out hope that you will one day like the Martin era and appreicate it as much as I and the rest of us do.

While not as popular as the Ozzy or Dio era it still posesses an element within that cannot be touched by those other eras.

Maybe it is Martin's voice, or maybe the tightness of the band or maybe just because it has IommI involved. Whatever the reason the Martin Era is STILL BLACK SABBATH and should still be atleast giving a shot if you consider yourself a fan of the band.

Personally I never see the issue here, Sabbath released great music before Martin but I feel it pales in no comparison to his era.

Look no further than the Headless Cross album(I know you've heard it), nothing can touch it, dark, heavy and sinister. Maybe the problem is you just heard the album, try really LISTENING to it and your opinion might change.

Rover
09-22-2006, 06:23 AM
I think the bottom line is that there are good and bad songs in every era and the music should be the factor, not who is in the band. I for one would never understand if someone said that the stuff like Valhalla or I Witness is worse than Megalomania or Sabbra Cadabra by default.

Tha Beast
09-22-2006, 01:35 PM
Although I tend to agree with many of the points being made on this topic, I also have several disagreements as well. I'll attempt to summarize my thoughts on some of the topics that are being presented here.

What IS "Black Sabbath"? Speaking for myself, Black Sabbath is not just a band name on a record sleeve. If Britney Spears, Christina Aguilara, Jessica Simpson and Madonna put out an album and placed the name "Black Sabbath" on it that would NOT mean that this band of young ladies is in fact "Black Sabbath". Speaking strictly for myself, Black Sabbath is four men from Birmingham whose common desire to play rock, blues and jazz bonded them together for life. That together, they journeyed together from total obscurity to fame and fortune. That not a single one of them could have accomplished this without the other. That their drive and ambition went unmatched by any other line-up. That petty bickering, breakups, media propaganda and wives ultimately couldn't break the bond. That it was their collective uniqueness that we are even talking, debating and speaking of them today. And that as each one left or disappeared from this bond, thus it became less and less unique, less interesting and therefore, less Black Sabbath.

Iommi's full intention with Seventh Star was to break from the Black Sabbath banner I'm sure forever unless a reunion came about. Poor management kept this from happening. Poor management turned the entire TEI period into a joke. Powell and Iommi discussed laying the band name to rest as well but again, poor management and blind devotion to "the name" continued to squander the name and the "idea" of what Black Sabbath is really all about.

Iommi has recruited some stellar musicians over the years and even made a great discovery in Tony Martin. Headless Cross, more than anything else, was a theme of the times. The late 80's were e difficult period for "hard rock" bands mostly due to overproduction but also in the sense that what many of us had grown up with and loved about Sabbath was gone. Primarily the songs were not riff oriented anymore and Iommi's tone had been watered down. Gone was the richer, thicker bluesier approach. Backing the guitar was now a mixed up keyboard instead of thundering bass. The bass sounding thinner along with even some fretless playing had replaced the growling, grooving bottom end we loved. During guitar solos or main sections of songs the bass was not even audible. Gone was the dirty, groovy, bluesy, jazzy, grunting, growling, happy, sad, angry Sabbath, now standing in it's place an epic, operatic, theatrical, stiff, polished band.

Tyr was a step in the right direction but still possessing many of the same attributes as Headless although I feel the band felt much more comfortable with each other on that record and it comes through in the end product. Sabbath performing "theme" oriented records didn't sit well with me. Arguably the record is a concept record but with the album title and three songs pertaining strictly to Norse mythology kill the idea of it being anything else.

By the time of Forbidden, music and production had changed considerably. The overall feel of the record is much more relaxed. I felt that all four of them performed their best here maybe without the pressure of having to "re-establish"Sabbath in the rankings. The production is more natural and stripped down with less studio enhancements to Martin's voice or Powell's drums. Murray's bass is prevalent and Iommi is back "riffing" and with a much thicker guitar tone.

For all intents and purposes "Black Sabbath" was really "The Tony Iommi Band" from Seventh Star to Forbidden. That's how I perceive it and think of it in my own world.

Black Sabbath for me is NOT just a banner on a record sleeve or a single individual. Black Sabbath is "ideal" a "passion". Something that four young men from Birmingham believed in when no one else did.

rar
09-22-2006, 04:35 PM
couldn't agree more. that post was beatiful.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rover
09-22-2006, 06:37 PM
Don't you think that you're bestowing some qualities that didn't exist upon The Original Black Sabbath®? Or similarly, detract from the other lineups just because they weren't The Original Black Sabbath®?

I think all these theories came about because the original lineup was together for so long, which was something unusual in the music business, and produced as much as eight records. Hence the words like "bond", "magic" etc. Fine, but what happened later? Where was the "bond" when Ozzy was trashing Iommi and even recorded a fake-Sabbath live album "Speak of the Devil"? Where was it when he refused to reunite twice? Where was it when Geezer slammed Iommi and claimed that he "wrote 90% of the music in Sabbath"? Where was it when Bill was almost fucked over in 2004? Whatever it was, it was gone by late 1976 and never returned.
I have nothing against the original 1970s era - it launched the whole thing, and note, I never ever said that it was bad or that it should not have been. I do have a thing against both the "Reunion" that led the band to ruin, and the attempts to prove that everything not made by The Original Black Sabbath® is "less Black Sabbath" or even subpar.

[ QUOTE ]

And that as each one left or disappeared from this bond, thus it became less and less unique, less interesting and therefore, less Black Sabbath.


[/ QUOTE ]

rar
09-22-2006, 11:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the bottom line is that there are good and bad songs in every era and the music should be the factor, not who is in the band. I for one would never understand if someone said that the stuff like Valhalla or I Witness is worse than Megalomania or Sabbra Cadabra by default.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't understand that either. If they had listened to the songs, then yes I'd understand that they have their opinion, but for one to dislike it just because a specific person was in the band is just ridiculous. If I've ever given off that impression, which I didn't, I'd be pissed at myself. Because that is wrong.

rar
09-23-2006, 12:07 PM
To be honest, I blame Tony Iommi for any dislike I have towards the TM era. If Geoff was writing music, he can take some blame too, but I don't hate them either.

Ray Rules
09-24-2006, 12:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I blame Tony Iommi for any dislike I have towards the TM era. If Geoff was writing music, he can take some blame too, but I don't hate them either.

[/ QUOTE ]

No bro, if you have to hate and put a blame in somebody, you have to do it with the whole band.. not only a person.

Zombie Cecil
09-24-2006, 04:59 AM
The Martin era was the one, for me, that took the longest to grow on me. Although is it just me, or but do the albums seem to suffer from a substantial amount more 'filler' than earlier ones?

El Lobo
09-24-2006, 05:02 AM
Oh it's just you, believe me. I cannot listen to any Ozzy era album without skipping 5 songs on it. :-)

rar
09-24-2006, 07:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I blame Tony Iommi for any dislike I have towards the TM era. If Geoff was writing music, he can take some blame too, but I don't hate them either.

[/ QUOTE ]

No bro, if you have to hate and put a blame in somebody, you have to do it with the whole band.. not only a person.

[/ QUOTE ]
I said already...I don't hate anyone. if i hated iommi, i wouldn't be here would i? i think iommi had a big part of the songwriting, especially since members were in and out during this period. that's why i blame him.

Psycho Man
09-24-2006, 11:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The Martin era was the one, for me, that took the longest to grow on me. Although is it just me, or but do the albums seem to suffer from a substantial amount more 'filler' than earlier ones?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Look at MOR with Embryo and Orchid listed as full tracks verses Headless Cross.

Tha Beast
09-25-2006, 01:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that you're bestowing some qualities that didn't exist upon The Original Black Sabbath®? Or similarly, detract from the other lineups just because they weren't The Original Black Sabbath®?

I think all these theories came about because the original lineup was together for so long, which was something unusual in the music business, and produced as much as eight records. Hence the words like "bond", "magic" etc. Fine, but what happened later? Where was the "bond" when Ozzy was trashing Iommi and even recorded a fake-Sabbath live album "Speak of the Devil"? Where was it when he refused to reunite twice? Where was it when Geezer slammed Iommi and claimed that he "wrote 90% of the music in Sabbath"? Where was it when Bill was almost fucked over in 2004? Whatever it was, it was gone by late 1976 and never returned.
I have nothing against the original 1970s era - it launched the whole thing, and note, I never ever said that it was bad or that it should not have been. I do have a thing against both the "Reunion" that led the band to ruin, and the attempts to prove that everything not made by The Original Black Sabbath® is "less Black Sabbath" or even subpar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you kinda missed my point which doesn't really surprise me. What I was attempting to convey was that "Black Sabbath" means different things to different people. That for yourself it may just be a band name. For others is may mean nothing more than a Boris Karlof film. Then describing from my own standpoint, what Black Sabbath means to me. Some people may agree, others may not.

One other thing I'd like to add though. This is a touchy subject and really shouldn't even be discussed but I'll take my chances. Depending on your age and what part of the world you live in I would believe might have a lot to do with your perception of Black Sabbath. For almost four decades Rock music was not allowed in many parts of the world (and even today this still rings true). I understand there were underground outlets but it's still nothing like having had free radio, concert tours, festivals and merchandising. Had you lived in parts of the world where this is highly restricted than I woudl imagine the original Black Sabbath doesn't do much for you. Late 80's bands and tastes may be more to your liking.

So I guess what I'm assuming is...if you been resident in a country where Rock was inhibited, then you would have a very different outlook compared to someone who had cart blanc. I would think that records like Headless and Tyr were more readily accessible to the public in places like Moscow in 1989 than Sabbath's back catalog. Due to lack of internet, fan magazines, books, records, etc. I would think that someone would percieve Black Sabbath might as well have been the Headless line-up at the time as people had very little history or knowledge of what came before that period. I see the people who are devout Martin followers and I check out there profiles and it struck me that a numbers of issues coincide with The release of Headless Cross, age and geographical locations being two of them.

We have the same thing in the states. I'm in the deep south were Black Sabbath was very rarely, if ever, played on the radio. They toured here, their records sold here, but there was always very little PR for the band here. During the Dio period Sabbath were never played on the radio here although Ozzy was. Ozzy had a much better publicity machine working the air waves and stuff.

Also I might point out that the original Black Sabbath is a "legacy" and the Martin era is not. The war between Ozzy and Sabbath in the 80's had more to do with warring Ardon family, Sharon just played her cards batter. Iommi had not to many kind words for Ozzy throughout but generally held his tongue more often due to his desire to put the original band back together througout this period

rar
09-25-2006, 05:29 PM
I figured I would say nothing about him missing the point, because I expected such a response anyway. I'm not one to mess around in someone's opinion. I may disagree, but what else is there to do about it?

Rover
09-25-2006, 08:22 PM
@Tha Beast - my opinion is my own. I was too small to even know about Black Sabbath in 1989 (since I'm just 25 now). I only heard it for the first time two years ago. My current opinion was formed after I have listened to each and every Black Sabbath studio album, starting with the s/t. I liked all of it, except for the vocals. I still do like the music, and if it had been recorded with a different vocalist, I think I would have been spinning the pre-Heaven and Hell records to this day (not all of them, as Technical Ecstasy, to me, sounded extremely forgettable).

What could age or geographical location have anything to do with that? I suppose you wouldn't find as much Ozzy fanboys in Russia because The Osbournes wasn't as successful here as in America, but mr. Osbourne does have a following. In fact, I've seen people with opinions similar to your own on the russian Deep Purple board, for example.

As a general rule, I do NOT prefer 80s bands. What was new in the 80s anyways? Hair metal and all that kind of stuff? I'll pass.

Tha Beast
09-26-2006, 10:04 AM
Apparently your vehement hatred for Ozzy leads you to "mis-read" my posts. I have stated many times in the past and the present that I could only "assume" what was or wasn't going on in countries that had or have very restrictive laws concerning broadcasting or marketing. My other point was that if I experience some of these restrictions within my own country where rock music was not only created but made into a multi-billion dollar a year business, then I can only imagine what it would be like somewhere where there are restrictions. So I belive that geography and age DO have a factor on the topic.

On the Ozzy video "Don't Blame Me" there's an interview, I believe with Bon Jovi were he talks about the Moscow Peace Festival (I think) and he's stating that for the most part, all these bands that were so huge in the US or the UK or Japan or wherever, basically were starting from scratch in parts of Eastern Europe back in the late 80's. So the hype of bands like Led Zeppelin, The Beatles or even the original Sabbath was completely missed. I don't think you can place some of the ideologies about these bands on the same parallel’s in countries where the laws are/were completely opposite of different.

Back on the topic. THe Cage material does sound somewhat "dated" to me even production wise. But overall I will say that I prefer's Martin's material "outside" of Sabbath as opposed to inside Sabbath. The same rings true for Cozy.

Ray Rules
09-26-2006, 01:10 PM
Ahm.. quoting Nero, this thread is

http://nefariouslabs.r30.net/Dead%20Horse.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/dmcantrell/forum_stuff/beatDeadHorse1.jpg

Tha Beast
09-26-2006, 01:19 PM
quoting Nero is your first bad idea

rar
09-26-2006, 07:27 PM
what's wrong with Nero?

I may add to the original purpose of this thread by saying I now think Headless Cross is a cool song as well, if I hadn't stated so already. Oh Cloak and Dagger is good as well.

Rover
09-27-2006, 07:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
what's wrong with Nero?

I may add to the original purpose of this thread by saying I now think Headless Cross is a cool song as well, if I hadn't stated so already. Oh Cloak and Dagger is good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's cool. Headless Cross (the song) is especially remarkable for the vocals, but there's a few interesting musical moments in it as well (such as the exchange between Tony and Laurence during the solo). But its main purpose, I believe, was to highlight Tony Martin's vocals, thus "introducing" him to the wider audience (I believe there was a strong "resurgence" marketing for the album).

@ Tha Beast:
Sorry, I now fail to understand you completely. My opinion, again, is my own, it doesn't represent any trend. Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and other bands were very popular here through the bootleg tapes and imported vinyls; it isn't like they were "unknown". Of course since there were no gigs and very few proper releases, the cult of these bands took different and less apparent forms.

I do not "hate" Osbourne really, but I do despise him for a lot of actions you all know of; I won't be repeating myself again (and probably sparking another 8 page worth argument over nothing).

Tha Beast
09-27-2006, 09:31 AM
Cloak and Dagger is a bad ass tune. I often wondered why that never made the record?

Forbidden is more to my liking than Headless. Headless has some great peak moments like HC and WDCs. Devil And Daughter and Nightwing being the mediocre songs the rest reminds my of filler tracks from Deep Purple's House Of Blue Light. I felt Tyr was a stronger effort with a more natural sound although I also beleive Iommi and Powell should've turned the knobs over to a good producer.

Both of Martin's solo record impress me more than Iommi's solo outings and anything Ozzy has done since Ozzmosis. Strangley enough, I prefer Martin's voice more today than when he first started out. I think when he dropped the "dramatics" and settled in to just "singing" is what caught my ear.

Ashley Dalby
09-27-2006, 10:52 AM
I dont think Cloak And Dagger was recorded FOR the Headless Cross album perse, but if it was and Sabbath decided to leave it off for whatever reason then the blame is on them. "Cloak And Dagger" is the best song from his era and because that era is MY favourite, that would make it MY favourite Sabbath song.

To me the first two Martin albums are better than the last two, while TYR is sort of stuck in the middle. TYR is much different because it contains a cleaner and less meaty sound to it. However my only issue with the album is that it is too short, it seems to lack something, but it is STILL a great album.

The last two Martin albums have a lot more filler than the others, but I will agree with Tha Beast that Martin's vocals DID change, even at this point. To listen to Martin's vocals on these last two compared to the first three, it is almost like listening to a cheap rip-off. However that voice made it possible for songs like "Evil Eye", "Dying For Love", "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle", "Cardinal Sin", "Can't Get Close Enough", "I Won't Cry For You", "Guilty As Hell", "Rusty Angels", "Kiss Of Death"

Tha Beast
09-27-2006, 03:00 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think C&D was cut for Forbidden but ended up as a Japanese bonus track.

Cross Purposes and Forbidden were a return to cut and dry riff rock.

Ashley Dalby
09-27-2006, 03:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think C&D was cut for Forbidden but ended up as a Japanese bonus track.

Cross Purposes and Forbidden were a return to cut and dry riff rock.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't know, I am NOT a data-crazed fanatic completist of Sabbath /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But word around the campfire is it was featured on the Headless Cross picture disk, never heard of it anywhere else.

Tha Beast
09-27-2006, 03:21 PM
damn, I think you're right and I just realized I've been thinking of "Loser Get's It all" this whole time.

(bashes head against wall)

rar
09-27-2006, 03:36 PM
any other great song suggestions I might be able to warm up to? I've got

The Shining
Headless Cross
Cloak and Dagger
and I think Eternal Idol, though I have to listen to that one again to check...

what's the best of what I haven't got on this list that I can try?

Tha Beast
09-27-2006, 03:47 PM
I've always dug Born To Lose, Hard Life To Love and Lost Forever.

All of Tyr is pretty good. Heaven In Black is the only real flubber but even that's grown on me over the years.

Kiss Of Death of course, Loser Get's It All and Guilty As Hell.

I Witness, Evil Eye and Psychophobia are good tracks too.

MarcStitz
09-27-2006, 04:19 PM
You have the TYR album, go to that album and give Anno Mundi a spin. This album is great, ask Rover about it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

rar
09-27-2006, 06:46 PM
I've tried Anno Mundi, I didn't like so much what I heard, but I'll give it another spin.

@Tha Beast (cool way of doing replies Rover lol)

I'll give a listen to all those songs you mentioned.

Ray Rules
09-27-2006, 10:41 PM
And bro, download some bootleg from the Headless Cross tour.. you will be surprised how good that band was!

Freddy the O
09-28-2006, 12:19 AM
True. The Headless In Vienna bootleg is quite good. I just wish someone would upload it as lossless!

Rover
09-28-2006, 01:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You have the TYR album, go to that album and give Anno Mundi a spin. This album is great, ask Rover about it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Hell yeah. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe the last two songs aren't exactly stellar but the rest is very cool. Anno Mundi and Sabbath Stones are like two best Sabbath songs ever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ray Rules
09-28-2006, 02:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have the TYR album, go to that album and give Anno Mundi a spin. This album is great, ask Rover about it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Hell yeah. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe the last two songs aren't exactly stellar but the rest is very cool. Anno Mundi and Sabbath Stones are like two best Sabbath songs ever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh you damn fat seal, Feels Good To Me is one of the greatest radio friendlys ever /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rover
09-28-2006, 07:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Oh you damn fat seal, Feels Good To Me is one of the greatest radio friendlys ever /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I ain't fat, and Feels Good to Me is a good song but it's not for every mood. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif And the video is cool, especially the girl - although I would have preferred to have Anno Mundi or Valhalla as single and video. Tony Iommi dressed up as Odin. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Freddy the O
09-28-2006, 08:04 AM
Tony as Odin and the rest of the bands as some of the other Norse gods or vikings? That'd be hilarious, which I really doubt would suit the music! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Then again, the TV Crimes video had a dancing hobo...

rar
09-28-2006, 02:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
True. The Headless In Vienna bootleg is quite good. I just wish someone would upload it as lossless!

[/ QUOTE ] I have this bootleg, and it is very good, I must say. What is lossless?

I'm also confused as to who wrote the lyrics on TEI. Iommi's said he's never written a lyric in his life, Ray Gillen sure isn't credited yet the lyrics were there on the TEI demos, so exactly who wrote it?

8bit Fighter
09-28-2006, 03:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What is lossless?

I'm also confused as to who wrote the lyrics on TEI. Iommi's said he's never written a lyric in his life, Ray Gillen sure isn't credited yet the lyrics were there on the TEI demos, so exactly who wrote it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lossless audio is like an Mp3, only it's not as compressed as much as an Mp3, and you still maintain the same feeling as if you were listening to the original record. .FLAC and .APE are good examples of this, but I never bothered with those when I could have Mp3s and could never tell the difference.

As far as the writing credits goes, in TEI (Tony Martin version), some were written by Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath, and others were just labeled "Black Sabbath", atleast according to what I remember from Windows Media Player.

Petoria000
09-28-2006, 04:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True. The Headless In Vienna bootleg is quite good. I just wish someone would upload it as lossless!

[/ QUOTE ] I have this bootleg, and it is very good, I must say. What is lossless?

I'm also confused as to who wrote the lyrics on TEI. Iommi's said he's never written a lyric in his life, Ray Gillen sure isn't credited yet the lyrics were there on the TEI demos, so exactly who wrote it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob Daisley, the bassist on that album.

rar
09-28-2006, 06:16 PM
so he wrote them? i see...i'll have to review my history.

Ray Rules
09-28-2006, 07:29 PM
No, It wasn't only Bob Daisley. Geoff Nichols and the rest of the gang started to draw a rough picture of the lyrics, but when BoB Daisley came he wrote the final versions.. so, he wrote the final idea of the lyrics, but I believe that the idea of the lyrics, about the theme were there before he came.

8bit Fighter
09-28-2006, 08:49 PM
So I was right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But in a more general answer. Thanks Ray. I knew it wasn't just Bob.

rar
09-29-2006, 03:42 PM
I didn't think it was either...