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  • #16
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    Anyone who says they are comparable in terms of raw power, imagination, energy, sheer enjoyment, etc, is just wrong.
    Some would agree. millions wouldn't. To say that as a statement of fact is plainly bullshit as it's YOUR OPINION plain & simple. You're entitled to it, but it doesn't make everybody else wrong.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mythology View Post
      OK best 3 Zep LPs in order:

      - Led Zep 3
      - Physical Graffiti
      - Led Zep 4 (or whatever it's called - we always knew it as 4)
      This list is Exhibit A in the case establishing that comparing bands is generally too subjective an exercise to seriously use the term "wrong." You can't leave 2 or HOTH off a top 3 Zeppelin albums list and replace either with PG.


      Originally posted by mythology View Post
      But 'The Song Remains the Same' please!!! Self-indulgent nonsense doesn't even come close. Moby Dick is the definition of pretentious.
      I agree that the live performances on TSRTS and HTWWW have elements of self indulgence to them. You would agree with me though, would you not, that so do a fair amount of Sabbath's recorded and released live performances? The medley on Live at Last and Heaven and Hell from Live Evil leap to mind here. I love both bands, but you can't rip Zeppelin for self indulgence live in a post praising Sabbath.
      "But I don't want to go among mad people."
      "Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
      "How do you know I'm mad?"
      "You must be or you wouldn't have come here."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mythology View Post
        OK best 3 Zep LPs in order:

        - Led Zep 3
        - Physical Graffiti
        - Led Zep 4 (or whatever it's called - we always knew it as 4)

        Best 3 Sabbath:

        - Vol4
        - Never Say Die
        - Sabotage

        By the way RLP4ever I'd say the first 8 LPs are great apart from Tech Ec.

        Anyone who says they are comparable in terms of raw power, imagination, energy, sheer enjoyment, etc, is just wrong. Sabbath were leagues ahead in imagination and execution. Wheels of Confusion is just something Led Zeppelin could not have written.

        Led Zeppelin were probably a better live band (apparently), although I never saw either in their prime so I'll never be able to make a judgement on that. But 'The Song Remains the Same' please!!! Self-indulgent nonsense doesn't even come close. Moby Dick is the definition of pretentious.

        Don't get me wrong I like Zeppelin but to me they are just a really good blues/rock/folk outfit. Sabbath made something entirely unique.
        If you leave TE out, then it's really the 'first six' and the 'last one' i.e the 7, not 8, albums of the original (Ozzy)-era Sabbath that you consider 'great'. Now, I've always regarded the first six (coincidentally, ditto for Zeppelin and Van Halen) to be the true 'essential' 'classic' records. I like both TE and NSD, but quite a lot less than the first six albums.

        I'm somebody that thinks that Zeppelin and Sabbath are actually mostly rather different bands, with of course, some similarities as well----but I'd insist they are absolutely 'comparable' in sheer musical class and greatness. And that's my opinion, indeed it's not 'right' or 'wrong' of anybody to feel that way, as you dismissively declared earlier. If anything, there are numerous fans (of both bands) that have often argued (or actually conceded) that Zeppelin were the "more accomplished musicians" overall. That's, of course, a relative thing, as personal perceptions go, but to say Sabbath were "leagues ahead in imagination and execution" sounds to me like over-the-top rabble-rousing, no less.

        Wheels of Confusion is just something Led Zeppelin could not have written
        Wish Jimmy and mates had tried that sometime, maybe. And I could just as easily counter by saying that Achilles Last Stand, for example, is something that Black Sabbath could not have written . These are silly, pointless hypotheses, surely.

        Also, sadly, I have never been able to watch either band in their glory years in the '70s, owing to location, circumstances and age.

        Ha, to think that Led Zeppelin have copped the carping of critics and non-fans calling them 'rip-offs', 'over-rated', Page has been slammed for being 'sloppy' playing live, Plant has been derided for his voice and stage performances, and now you aren't the first one to hurl the 'self-indulgent', 'pretentious' slur at them. It's hard not to wonder or 'get you wrong', mythology, about whether you're really much of a Zeppelin fan at all. They were certainly a lot more than you're willing to hand them credit for when you say they were "just a really good blues/rock/folk outfit. Sabbath made something entirely unique". I'd argue Zeppelin were virtuoso musicians with truly eclectic tastes and influences who fused their musical ideas in ways that were entirely unprecedented, unrivalled and unique---as much as we give Sabbath due credit for their pioneering heavy metal impact.

        Look, rock, metal, heck MUSIC itself, is inherently replete with 'self-indulgences' of all sorts. I'll admit that I, too, have found a few Zep songs/performances, whether in the studio or out live, to seem to drag, bore and annoy, and appear quite self-indulgent excess, at times. BUT, Led Zep's peers in classic rock/metal, and that includes Sabbath, can all be considered 'guilty' of the very same tendencies that you seem to single out Zeppelin for. Bottom line is, and I've stated it in these forums before, that unlike some people that claim to actually be fans of both Zeppelin and Sabbath, I never felt the urge to somehow, sometimes put one down to put the other one up on a pedestal. I love 'em both, but Zeppelin slightly more.

        Lastly, your personal rankings of "best Led Zep and Sabbath LPs" do not match my own. Now, would I be very "wrong" in disagreeing with your 'best 3 list'?
        "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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        • #19
          I mut say I never saw the point of these comparisons betwwen Zeppellin and Sabbath. Their musics are so different that I don't really see what to compare here. They are both legends in their own right. They both achieved something unique. Led Zeppelin took Blues Rock and took it it to the next level. They turned it into Hard Rock, and doing so they opened the way for legions of bands who would explore this new way of playing Rock music in the 70s and 80s. Sabbath, on the other hand, took Blues and Jazz, crushed them and created Heavy Metal, paving the road for an army of Metal bands and different Metal currents. You can't compare them because they were totally different, and what they did was totally different.

          During the interview I did with him in 2005, I think Bill Ward gave a great view of what happened : "[When we heard Zeppelin's first record], we just sat and listened, thinking "Oh my God ! What are these guys doing ?" Because, until then, even if there had been bands who had played harder Rock like THE WHO, and even if CREAM had defined a new way to aprehend Rock music, these bands were only a handful. And then Zep came, and everything changed. And when we released the first BLACK SABBATH album something like eight months later, it was like the entire face of popular music was changed forever."

          You can't compare Zeppelin's and Sabbath's legacies, because they are too different to be compared.

          Now, I'd be totally dishonest if I didn't say something about the "Zeppelin stole music" thing. I'm a huge Zeppelin fan, but you can't seriously ignore that a great deal of their catalogue was stolen. I'd have absolutely no problem with that, if they had credited the original authors. But the problem is they didn't (see the few lawsuits they lost to Howling Wolf for example). That's too bad, because I don't think people would have liked them less if they had known their songs were covers. But another thing I have to agree on (and I wouldn't call myself a fan if I didn't think that), it's that Led Zeppelin were extremely gifted musicians and arrangers, and a gigantic war machine onstage (from 1970 to 1975, I can't figure any band who could even dream to reach their level onstage. They were just too huge to be true). And each and every tune they covered, borrowed or stole, they just made it so much better that they indeed turned them into Zeppelin songs. Listen to Leadbelly's original version of "Gallows Pole" from 1935 entitled "Gallis Pole" and you'll get what I mean :

          Leadbelly : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmTNgJxlrCY
          Zeppelin : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1kxb1FC3Vg
          Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
          "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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          • #20
            They are different and i like both. They both have a lot to offer. I'm big on acoustic guitar and mandolin and zeppelin satisfies that a lot and sabbath offers me everything I like about electric guitar and loud amps. Powerful chugging riffs. Zeps notto bad there either.

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            • #21
              It might be argued that as Led Zeppelin's early albums were basically comprised of covers (many uncredited) that they were, in fact, great adapters.

              But Sabbath win out for being original songwriters. And Iommi trumps Page in terms of being the king of great riffs.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mikesline View Post
                found this while surfing, i'm surprized to hear him say comment like this.

                http://press.manicnirvana.com/?p=55


                Plant comes off like a stuck up bitch sometimes i pay no heed at all !
                The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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                • #23
                  It's a shame because musically he has reached a fine place indeed. He's matured & evolved & seems to have found the perfect place with T-Bone & Kraus... now he just needs his ego & mouth to catch up!

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                  • #24
                    Robert Plant seems to have the need to knock others down.

                    He spent most of the late '80s talking about everyone supposedly ripping him off, especially David Coverdale (who comes from the same era and is a peer of Plant's) and Kingdom Come (who did rip Zeppelin off, massively). He shouldn't be throwing stones, considering that Zep ripped off the old black bluesers left, right and centre.

                    I like Zeppelin, but I would rank them third in the initial formative cadre of British heavy metal (Sabbath, Purple, Zeppelin). I'd put Uriah Heep somewhere in there but they're closer to progressive rock to my ears...

                    Plant said he doesn't need Viagra...probably not, with Allison Krauss to lust over!
                    He is not here. He has risen!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
                      Plant said he doesn't need Viagra...probably not, with Allison Krauss to lust over!
                      I never heard him make that bragging claim (and he's 61 today), though I wouldn't put it past Percy to say that he never really even needed Jimmy Page to become so famous and loved---or simply doesn't need him anymore---to make great rock music again.

                      As for Ms. Krauus, DS please don't tell me that Plant can seriously ever take their musical alliance in the studios into something suited to the bedroom.

                      *Did you like that album with Allison, though?
                      Last edited by RLP4ever; 10-01-2009, 06:25 AM.
                      "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
                        *Did you like that album with Allison, though?
                        Probably my favorite record of the last three years. And one of the best concerts too.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
                          I never heard him make that bragging claim (and he's 61 today), though I wouldn't put it past Percy to say that he never really even needed Jimmy Page to become so famous and loved---or simply doesn't need him anymore---to make great rock music again.

                          As for Ms. Krauus, DS please don't tell me that Plant can seriously ever take their musical alliance in the studios into something suited to the bedroom.

                          *Did you like that album with Allison, though?
                          He does say something about "not needing Viagra" in the interview. Just making a Truly Tasteless Joke.

                          And, actually, I think Allison Krauss has a wonderful voice, in addition to being beautiful.

                          Seriously, Plant has always been interested in the acoustic side of things so I wasn't surprised when he and Allison got together (musically!).
                          He is not here. He has risen!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
                            Robert Plant seems to have the need to knock others down.

                            He spent most of the late '80s talking about everyone supposedly ripping him off, especially David Coverdale (who comes from the same era and is a peer of Plant's) and Kingdom Come (who did rip Zeppelin off, massively). He shouldn't be throwing stones, considering that Zep ripped off the old black bluesers left, right and centre.

                            I like Zeppelin, but I would rank them third in the initial formative cadre of British heavy metal (Sabbath, Purple, Zeppelin). I'd put Uriah Heep somewhere in there but they're closer to progressive rock to my ears...

                            Plant said he doesn't need Viagra...probably not, with Allison Krauss to lust over!
                            Since the early 80's to my knowledge Plant has seldom if ever had anything good to say about metal bands. But in this case due to a lack of follow up questioning, it's possible that he was referring to this specific Sabbath show.

                            I am a Purple fan but definitely wouldn't put them ahead of Zeppelin. Unlike Sabbath, neither band was ever comfortable with being identified as metal anyway.

                            FWIW note that this interview is from 2002.

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                            • #29
                              To dmc: hey, that's high praise indeed. Probably your favourite record of the last three years.? What else have you been listening to, then? Nah, just kidding! It took me a long time in finally buying it; found it too mellow and rather boring, initially. But, after a few further full listens, I realised I actually liked it quite a bit. But I admit to being really surprised and more than a little leery when I first heard of Plant collaborating with somebody like Allison Krauss; it definitely seemed like a pretty improbable (and risky?) alliance. Alas, they both stand vindicated on that classy record. And lucky you even got to see them perform, in concert. Good on ya!


                              Originally posted by TheMobRules
                              I am a Purple fan but definitely wouldn't put them ahead of Zeppelin. Unlike Sabbath, neither band was ever comfortable with being identified as metal anyway.
                              Neither would I. Purple comes third, on my card. And yea, you're right about the the 'metal-avoidance' syndrome of both Purple and Zeppelin. Despite being (mostly rightly) credited with having a considerable iinfluence and impact upon latter-day Metal music and bands, both Zeppelin and Purple, themselves, consistently appeared to variously disavow any real association with metal. In Zeppelin's case, it was almost a sneering dismissal by them of any link their music may have had with 'metal'. And DP seemed to me, at least, to almost run away from the metal framework, as if they were somehow strangely ashamed or simply scared, or possibly both, of being linked to metal, much less actually play music that sounded that way.

                              **Also, I'd say something about the 'blues' aspect to the music of these three bands. Sabbath blatantly (mostly) ditched it in the Ozzy-era itself. Purple constantly flirted with it, without ever sounding altogether confident or convincing in their efforts. Zeppelin, though, always stayed mostly wedded to the blues. The rest, as the cliche goes, is history.
                              "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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                              • #30
                                He's no longer the young ladies man rock god that he was once. He's an wrinkled old looking fart who wishes he looked half as good as Tony does at 61.

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