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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    As a matter of pure fact, WE (i.e my family, and myself) are 'massively wealthy' (I balk at using the term you used). It's complete conjecture, of coures, that were I to deflower, dissect and devour a comely virgin (as sithempire would expect a death metal die-hard 'fed' on a 'diet' of this music for the past 16 years to eventually do ) I still won't bet that all OUR riches would be able to stave off a conviction and a stiff sentence for my crimes.
    I was not suggesting anyone here is poor by any means and if you are massively wealthy than congratulations, but I guess I once again failed to illustrate my point that leaves no room for interpretation.

    You'd be surprised sir how many crimes are overlooked based on money. Like others have said before, "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE ALL-MIGHTY DOLLAR"

    Money can buy your way out of any crime, believe it or not if you wish,

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    As for the other superstars you cited, I shunned MJ not because he was an 'alleged' paedophile, but because I couldn't care much about his music. I'm no American football fan, but I'm willing to bet that if I were one, and supported O.J's team, I'd still love to watch him play. Ditto with Vick (if I admired his game); despite his reprehensible cruel crimes against animals.
    Since you emphasize the word alleged part, this is not even worth responding to.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    If only it were that simple and sexy. Fact is, it's not only ME, lady. Calling Savatage a death metal band and Criss Oliva as the father that sired the subsequent explosion of death metal is borderline-lunacy. Say this to any semi-literate dude that's ever heard any death metal AND Savatage that. Indeed, ask Savatage's own biggest fans what they think of your declaration on the matter.
    Okay, the problem with your input on this is you not taking your predetermined mindset and perhaps not reading what I wrote correctly. I am well aware that Savatage was NEVER a Death Metal band. Perhaps get off your high horse and actually read who the original DM bands cite as their influences and Savatage will always be on the list. Critics admit how huge an influence the band was on the sound of the original DM bands were, as well as (NY imported to FL - Cannibal Corpse).

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    The mind boggles at how facetious you can sometimes be. So, you figure that I had to be living in Florida, perhaps be at least your age to comment knowledgeably and authoritatively on what is historically, factually considered by anybody and everybody with a clue about the genre, to be its approximate breakthrough time period?? I got into death metal in '93, but it's hard to guage what IQ levels we're dealing with now, if I have to tell you that neither I (nor anybody else) is required to have been into the 'scene' in the early 80s, to know for a fact, that Death Metal DID NOT even exist, at that time. You were old enough to rock out to Metallica's Kill 'em All, but please don't tell me that death metal came knocking at your door, as well---as early as in '81. Oh ok, but then I was only 5 years old, what would poor me know anything about that, right?
    Sure you can put forth what you say all you want and I would agree with part of what you write. But there is a huge difference between coming in after the fact, reading books on the subject and getting the info from other people, then actually attending the same schools at the same time and watching the subject fledge from the ground. You can claim all you want to have more accurate knowledge on the subject, especially since I cite a band as an influence and you disagree with me. On the modern DM I would not argue you know more about it than I do, that is pretty obvious. But in regards to the classic era, you can take all the information you've read, researched and live by but it is not the same as being there.

    That is like saying you know more about fighting in a war when you never have and your talking to a soldier. It does not mean you are wrong on things since a lot of what you write is accurate, which should be expected since you are emotionally connected with the genre. But whatever knowledge you may have is coming from a source that did not involve: BEING THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED, unless you were and just not stating it.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    I wouldn't wanna guess what all death metal stuff you have genuinely checked out, even in the past 5 years, let alone the entire decade, but I can only assume that you have heard enough to be able to so cavalierly dismiss everything as sounding "the same" and all of it 'BORING'. Even a few of the dm die-hards-turned-doubters I've encountered in recent times, don't quite go THAT far and brazenly declare tons of material the same old boring.
    Oh no I would say that I have not given a ton of attention to the modern DM and part of my dislike is generalizing what I have heard as a whole, I'll admit it. There is an abundance of modern DM and BM bands I have never listened to and because of that I cannot critque their music. Maybe it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, so calling it all the same is wrong, sure. But what I HAVE heard from modern DM and BM bands have all sounded the same to me.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Alright, so now I have to have a band of my own, and be a prodigious talent on jazz/classical/rock/metal guitar, to comment with any credibility on musical matters eh?? Ashley, lest you don't realize, (though some people have already pointed this out to you recently) it's become a drag seeing how you never tire of compulsively condescending to others on this board, with this "practising musician" v "simply opinion" baloney that you routinely trot out in our online debates. If you're so friggin' cool, and all-knowing about ALL kinds of guitar playing and "skilled musicianship" then maybe I shouldn't even have the audacity to argue death metal with you, right? Let me be chivalrous and wish you a godly gig next time, and good night for now. LOL
    I cannot recall ever being condescending to you sir, but I guess needing to state the obvious qualifies as such.

    I have no better way to explain the rather easy point I already have, so I will not try anymore. But just for future reference, talk to any musician, it does not matter if they are successful or not and start talking about musicial skill. See how quickly they look at you with that, "Oh I forgot about all your past experience in writing and playing music. Perhaps I should also forget that I am a musician and you are not but yet my musical knowledge and experience means nothing when your OPINION on what is good or bad is far more important to the subject"

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Kill the Christian was stupidly "banned" in many countries. And as much as some fans complain about the 'same old' lyrical staple of Deicide---the band actually moved away somewhat from their unrelenting, vitriolic anti-Christian verses, on their last album. But sith, this isn't something to get all worked up over, or parade as your Exhibit A of supposed incriminating 'evidence' of the 'vicious' influence of Death Metal, or Deicide LOL *btw, Glen Benton and gang have been "spewing" not the 'bullshit' that your ears have heard, but pure death metal awesomeness, for actually 20, not ten years.
    The fact that you can so readily just shrug off a song where the singer is CLEARLY inciting the murder of Christians and the burning of Christian churches shows me you're too involved in the scene to be remotely objective any longer. You're so accustomed to reading such lyrics and making excuses for them that you no longer even see just how vile, hate-filled and wrong they are. Does that not show desensitization at work? Exhibit A is damning, but so are all the exhibits (from Deicide at least). Words are ideas, and ideas have moved men to good or ill. You want facts to support that? Read any history or sociology book.

    Now I'm not on any crusade, but to be honest with you, after this discussion, I'm less hesitant to support one, and I probably would if I wasn't more "paranoid" about the slippery slope of freedom of speech being taken away. But I don't feel any less convinced of my arguments than before. In fact, all I've seen in defense of DM is specious reasoning that it's just words, with nothing meant behind them, harmless, and set to purportedly great music.

    I'll give you the skills of the players.
    I'll give you that some DM players lead relatively normal lives (though that has no bearing on anything -- nearly every tyrant in the history of the world had wives and children.)
    I'll give you the fact that there are fans who don't care about the lyrics.
    I'll give you the fact that there are fans who won't be affected by them.

    But no one's shown me a shred of evidence that such lyrics are perfectly fine and don't affect the psyche of people in a negative way. All I've heard is that I'm a conspiracy theorist, that I'm way off base, that I'm letting my feelings get the better of me.

    We have examples that not a few individuals were affected by the ideas behind the lyrics, but you shrug them off as aberrations. We have studies that show people are subject to desensitization, and yet you guysl say, nope, doesn't apply. We have causal links in what happened in the Norwegian black metal scene, which was not the act of a single unstable man (Vikernes). Besides the murder, we're talking about a suicide, 50 arsons (for which several were convicted), death fetishism, death threats, etc. And let's face it, despite musical differences, both DM and BM have a lot in common (and some argue that BM is an offshoot of DM anyway), especially in regards to an extreme anti-Christian, pro-Satanic lyrical stance. Some BM bands wear corpse paint; the lead singer of Deicide (a DM band) simply burned an inverted cross into his forehead. (Not to mention he promised his own suicide at the age of 33, which of course he later retracted when the birthdate failed to materialize his corpse).

    "Kill the Christians" deserved to be banned, as does any band who advocates such a message. If it said "Kill the Jews" or "Kill the Blacks", there would've been universal outrage. But for some reason, it's not a big deal to advocate the killing of Christians.

    If you guys can't convince me, a reasonably intelligent former fan of relatively extreme metal (and I do still consider Slayer extreme) then you guys really have a battle ahead of you to convince anybody else that this stuff is just harmless blowing off steam.

    Leave a comment:


  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Since I would be willing to bet that no one on this forum is FILTHY Rich
    That's a strange assumption to make, some of us have had successful & lucrative careers... others I'm sure could have been born with a silver spoon advantage... Wealthy people can visit forums too...

    Leave a comment:


  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I don't really know why I have reiterate these words again, since it is something a person with an I.Q. of 7 can figure out.
    I don't know; maybe you wanna give some of us with single-digit IQs, a Business 101 fresher's course in these forums.

    What this all has to do with the topic is the bands/musicians commiting 'despicable acts'. Since I would be willing to bet that no one on this forum is FILTHY Rich, then if anyone of us commited a despicable act then we would get the maximum penalty. You wouldn't have the money to buy a private attorney, so you would be stuck with a court appointed lawyer, who's entire purpose is to make you plea out, which is just another way of saying, "Yes, Your Honor I AM Guilty."
    As a matter of pure fact, WE (i.e my family, and myself) are 'massively wealthy' (I balk at using the term you used). It's complete conjecture, of coures, that were I to deflower, dissect and devour a comely virgin (as sithempire would expect a death metal die-hard 'fed' on a 'diet' of this music for the past 16 years to eventually do ) I still won't bet that all OUR riches would be able to stave off a conviction and a stiff sentence for my crimes.

    As for the other superstars you cited, I shunned MJ not because he was an 'alleged' paedophile, but because I couldn't care much about his music. I'm no American football fan, but I'm willing to bet that if I were one, and supported O.J's team, I'd still love to watch him play. Ditto with Vick (if I admired his game); despite his reprehensible cruel crimes against animals.


    Whatever you say sir.
    If only it were that simple and sexy. Fact is, it's not only ME, lady. Calling Savatage a death metal band and Criss Oliva as the father that sired the subsequent explosion of death metal is borderline-lunacy. Say this to any semi-literate dude that's ever heard any death metal AND Savatage that. Indeed, ask Savatage's own biggest fans what they think of your declaration on the matter.

    This is coming from someone who will subsequently admit to only initiating himself AFTER the time period he proves to know nothing about.
    Geez, what is that one Mark Twain quote? I don't remember it exactly but it basically means:

    "If You Find Yourself Agreeing With The Majority Then It Seriously Is Time For You To Change Your Views"
    The mind boggles at how facetious you can sometimes be. So, you figure that I had to be living in Florida, perhaps be at least your age to comment knowledgeably and authoritatively on what is historically, factually considered by anybody and everybody with a clue about the genre, to be its approximate breakthrough time period?? I got into death metal in '93, but it's hard to guage what IQ levels we're dealing with now, if I have to tell you that neither I (nor anybody else) is required to have been into the 'scene' in the early 80s, to know for a fact, that Death Metal DID NOT even exist, at that time. You were old enough to rock out to Metallica's Kill 'em All, but please don't tell me that death metal came knocking at your door, as well---as early as in '81. Oh ok, but then I was only 5 years old, what would poor me know anything about that, right?

    I may be mistaken but that is PRECISELY what I wrote above, so why repeat it?
    Yea, you perhaps said as much----I was only making a further assertion of my own---not shooting down your testimony on the matter, you know.


    No, we live in the same world, your outlook is just so massively different than mine and on this subject that is fine. If you choose to find said music to be 'very cool' then go ahead...
    I wouldn't wanna guess what all death metal stuff you have genuinely checked out, even in the past 5 years, let alone the entire decade, but I can only assume that you have heard enough to be able to so cavalierly dismiss everything as sounding "the same" and all of it 'BORING'. Even a few of the dm die-hards-turned-doubters I've encountered in recent times, don't quite go THAT far and brazenly declare tons of material the same old boring.


    Yes it does, but I forgot that you are this practicing musician who is able to converse about skilled musicianship, outside the realm of 'simply opinion'

    Alright, so now I have to have a band of my own, and be a prodigious talent on jazz/classical/rock/metal guitar, to comment with any credibility on musical matters eh?? Ashley, lest you don't realize, (though some people have already pointed this out to you recently) it's become a drag seeing how you never tire of compulsively condescending to others on this board, with this "practising musician" v "simply opinion" baloney that you routinely trot out in our online debates. If you're so friggin' cool, and all-knowing about ALL kinds of guitar playing and "skilled musicianship" then maybe I shouldn't even have the audacity to argue death metal with you, right? Let me be chivalrous and wish you a godly gig next time, and good night for now. LOL
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 10:15 AM.

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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Ashley, it's obvious how I would never obey this particular commandment---but what in heaven's name do you mean by "that they owe you their person life"? I'm wildly guessing here, but are you obliquely implying that they deserve to be put to death---for their 'despicable' personal actions? If you are, then we have a very fundamental disagreement here, that maybe we aren't allowed to discuss further, given the forum rules.

    And, it actually does matter a whole lot (to me) 'how brilliant or talented the artist may be'. As I stressed above, if I dig the band and love the music, my dollars will always go to buying their records.
    That was not what I implying at all but I think my typo is causing the confusion, "they owe you their person(AL) life" is what I meant to write, and it's because they do. They do not buy their own albums, merchandise, tickets to concerts and then sit in the audience, cheering while they're also on stage. I write it like that because it is a kindergarden concept: Music is a business and in ALL business there is the seller and the buyer

    Band: Seller
    Fans: Buyer

    What do all businesses tell you? The Buyer(Or Customer) is ALWAYS right. It is the customer that keeps the business' doors open, keeps their lights on or in this case, allows them to live in luxury if they so choose.

    I don't really know why I have reiterate these words again, since it is something a person with an I.Q. of 7 can figure out.

    What this all has to do with the topic is the bands/musicians commiting 'despicable acts'. Since I would be willing to bet that no one on this forum is FILTHY Rich, then if anyone of us commited a despicable act then we would get the maximum penalty. You wouldn't have the money to buy a private attorney, so you would be stuck with a court appointed lawyer, who's entire purpose is to make you plea out, which is just another way of saying, "Yes, Your Honor I AM Guilty."

    Like I said before about Michael Jackson. I used to really enjoy his music and can still admit that he was a talented individual, but we should not forget that he was also a child molester. I think O.J. Simpson was a very talented football player and a very amusing actor, but we should not forget that he was also a murderer. I think Michael Vick is a very talented football player who was also entertaining to watch, but we should not forget that he was also the one behind a dog fighting ring that involved tortuing and killing dogs.

    How do you think such individuals have managed to evade punishment? Oh that's right, individuals that say, "Art Transcends It Creators" and provide them the funds to manipulate their way through the judicial system.

    When all they have to do is realize that just because it is their right as a human being to make a choice does not mean it is the right thing to do.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Also, I probably cannot quote everything you have said that I wanna specifically reply to here, but lemme just make some quick responses to a few comments you made earlier. I realise a lot of it actually is stuff we've already debated, in the past. But still,

    Savatage was ALWAYS basically a 'power metal' band with some heavy, atmospheric undertones to their sound. They could never be seriously called a death metal band of any sort, nor any significant influence on dm bands, either. It just is not the case.
    Whatever you say sir.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    You repeat your old perplexing remarks about how the true origins of death metal can be traced back to '81----heck, even thrash hadn't totally found its feet at that particular year---and death metal was several years away from being even properly conceived, let alone created and executed or recognised as such. I don't wanna go into too much detail here, but you seem to repeat some of your older arguments about how DM started out as so much more creative and impressive in the early years, but then swiftly degenerated into a depressing mediocrity and boredome, ever since. I'd unequivocally and completely dispute and reject that point of view---notwithstanding the contributions of Death, Possessed, Celtic Frost, and a handful of others to the conception of this new genre. Death metal really exploded with the advent of the Florida legends Morbid Angel, Malevolent Creation, Obituary, Deicide, (the NY imports to Florida, Cannibal Corpse) and the NYDM pioneers like Suffocation and Immolation. This was all in '88-89 and is conventionally regarded as the authentic emergence of real deal death metal, as we know it.
    This is coming from someone who will subsequently admit to only initiating himself AFTER the time period he proves to know nothing about.
    Geez, what is that one Mark Twain quote? I don't remember it exactly but it basically means:

    "If You Find Yourself Agreeing With The Majority Then It Seriously Is Time For You To Change Your Views"

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Next, I don't quite agree with your depictions of fans' "age" being such a determinant about their attitudes to the music and their behaviours. I might fall in the 'middle' of the age segments you described---i.e I had initiation into death metal as a high school senior, back in '93 when death metal was actually in some of its historical, creative apex. However, I simply don't think that 'older' 'mature?' death metal fans are the only ones more likely not to buy into the 'satanic' 'evil' 'gory' imagery of some of these bands. I'd argue neither do an overwhelming majority of younger fans, today. Seriously, I don't know any death metal fan (young or older) that seriously pursues satanic, violent, anti-social activities or raves about such things or cites the bands as their inspiration for all of this. Too many of you seem astonishingly ignorant about the typical, average death metal fan, anywhere. Young fans are profoundly passionate about the music, they go to concerts, buy shiploads of records and merch, are perfectly 'mature'-----not a bunch of rage-filled, demented louts indulging in some perversion. They don't have to change a thing to get the approval or the blessings of non-fans.

    Besides, for all the customary stridently anti-religion stance of a majority of extreme metal acts, personal religious views and preferences have had no huge impact on most fans and the bands they swear by. Even believers in God and Christianity are known to be dm enthusiasts---as are agnostics and atheists.
    I may be mistaken but that is PRECISELY what I wrote above, so why repeat it?


    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.
    Ashley, this reads like an incoherent mess, honestly. But what sense I can make of it seems to suggest that you find 'modern DM' (timeline??) and BM have next to nothing in 'artistic quality' but is only just 'STATIC NOISE' to you. We must inhabit different worlds, entirely. To call a lot of very cool dm and bm, today---as static noise---is totally beyond the pale and beggars belief, really. I'll let this one go.
    No, we live in the same world, your outlook is just so massively different than mine and on this subject that is fine. If you choose to find said music to be 'very cool' then go ahead...

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Which is precisely how I feel about the modern Extreme Metal outfits. Early DM had variety, both in their music and vocal approach, there was a LOT less growling and the guitar were not always detuned. Because it all sounds the same now, it is indeed, as you put it, BORING.
    This somewhat helps explain your outlook. I gotta say, thank god for the adoption of more vocal variations and the perfection of and more plentiful 'growling' in death metal. Detuned guitars is a given--and far from the main thing here---it was always mainly about killer riffs and leads (and the occasional bursts of soloing), which came in torrents from the best players and acts in dm, for the past twenty years.

    And gosh, it absolutely DOES NOT 'all sound the same now'. Need I even comment on 'BORING' ??
    Yes it does, but I forgot that you are this practicing musician who is able to converse about skilled musicianship, outside the realm of 'simply opinion'.

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Well, obviously I don't agree with everything you say, but I don't take umbrage at your expressing it. I do think musicians and performers bear responsibility when they write something that's potentially damaging to others. And I have read the lyrics to several DM and BM bands (I know y'all don't lump those two subgenres of extreme metal together -- but let's face it, to the minds of most, the differences are largely academic), and my eyes don't deceive me. The lyrics advocate extremely bad shit, even if the musicians claim they personally don't. That's such a copout. I agree with Ashley that people are responsible for their own actions, but the fact remains that there are a lot of damaged individuals out there, some undiagnosed, some off their meds, some just immature, who feed off that darkness and reflect it, whether that means they get desensitized through extreme music, films and video games to the point that a suffering individual is something to take pictures of on a cell phone, or if it means they rape, attack, or harm another themselves. Or if it means they get so despondent through a constant diet of negative thoughts, that they off themselves. And that's not propaganda. People have done bad stuff with far less contributory factors. And that's exactly what I'd describe it as, not a cause for why someone does something, but a contributing factor, of which there are many. But why add one more?! Music is supposed to be art and entertainment. It shouldn't shy away from the darkness, but it's supposed to point the way to the light. That's what Sabbath did.

    But as regards the music itself, a few months back I listened to a few songs from Emperor. Now before you all start hollering, I know they're a black metal band. But it's close enough for me to make this point. I can recognize the talent they have to play like that. It's very skilled. It's not my cup of tea, mostly because I can't get into the cookiee monster vocals at all (I can't see how these guys won't get throat cancer in a few years). But at least lyrically, there's some interesting things there (which reminded me a lot of Celtic Frost) that tell stories and weird stuff, to be sure, but at least not the same tired tripe and vicious bullshit that Deicide's been spewing for ten years.
    Ha, did I seem to "holler" at you at any point, so far, sith? I'm not about to start, either----though I gotta say that Emperor is an example of a rather sucky extreme band to talk to me about. Yea, they are black metal, not death metal, but that is not the reason why I find them lame. Btw, you reveal the typical sneering stance of inveterate non-fans by glibly referring to the vocals as 'cookie-monster' ----that's been a derogatory term of reference used by the genre's detractors to ridicule arguably the most stand-out feature of most extreme music, i.e the low, growling vocals. Emperor, though, uses higher-pitched screams more often, as a black metal band is wont to do. I'm glad you can at least discern playing chops there----though if poor Emperor can stir your senses, musically-- I gotta lament how infinitely superior players can't--or don't. 'Stories and weird stuff' eh? That could be 'artistry' of some sort, at least, you reckon? lol


    Look sith, the more you so steadfastly insist on accusing extreme metal lyrics of being insidiously damaging to people's psyches---and being direct or indirect actual 'incitement' to horrible, heinous acts, the more I'm inclined to argue that you're letting deep-seated personal prejudice and a blatant paranoia inform your opinions on this issue. I recognise the plausibility of what you describe as 'disturbed' 'damaged' individuals of various types that can be, and often are, pushed over the brink by suggestive stimuli---'contributing factors'---as you called it. But, sith, I've always found this whole underlying fear, suspicion and vilifcation of, and the periodic public 'crusade' against the allegedly iniquitous, inciteful nature of extreme music is, at best, woefully wrong-headed, and at worst, just another intolerant, self-righteous, self-serving even, smear campaign. Death metal never merited to be so misunderstood or maligned. There's not a shred of respectable, much less irrefutable, evidence to confirm that death metal (or other extreme music) has ever been a particularly, if at all, a strong 'contributory' factor to depraved, vile criminality and other despicable actions by individuals that have been routinely exposed to this genre of music.

    The sorts of arguments about the corrupting influence of death metal that you roll out here are patently highly speculative, dangerously specious.....and no, a flat-out fallacy, to my mind. Butt was onto something when he talked of this sounding like a 'conspiracy theory' cooking on your burners, mate. More seriously, I see no compelling evidence whatsoever---from my personal experience of being heavily into the extreme metal scene, travelling, meeting, interacting with bands, fans, reading extensively about issues surrounding our extreme metal fan community and the societies and different countries we live in----that there's ever been more than a passing, totally random, isolated few instances of psychologically ill individuals who have gone over the brink and committed a vicious offense----and there's no clear linkage of criminal, savage crimes committed to being a death metal fan, per se. Accusations of extreme music being a 'contributory' factor to steadily 'desensitizing' impressionable audiences and already 'damaged' persons into embracing crime and violence as a form of depraved thrill-seeking, are purely arbitrary, biased perspectives----lending themselves to flimsy and wholly unconvincing linkages between violence in society and the death metal genre that allegedly advocates and exacerbates it. This cannot be the arguments of a serious, literate, rational society----nor that of a non-fan of the genre.



    You want to tell me that these guys aren't advocating bad things:

    From the song "Kill the Christian":

    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian

    Armies of darkness unite
    Destroy their temples and churches with fire
    Where in his world will you hide
    Sentenced to death, the anointment of christ

    In due time your path leads to me
    Put you out of your misery

    The death of prediction
    Kill the christian

    Kill the christian...dead!
    You can read and interpret anything and all that you want into those lyrics. No small mercy that a mighty majority of death metal fans apparently don't take such lyrics either too literally and seriously as offended, paranoid critics like you do------nor as some incitement to act on them as you might suspect. There's no 'subliminal' hidden message of murder and mayhem there---no matter what it looks like, at mere face value.

    Hey, I was actually listening to this terrific song just the other night---and even posted it in the appropriate thread. The musicianship on the song is nothing short of breath-takingly cool, as is the majority of the Deicide discography.

    Kill the Christian was stupidly "banned" in many countries. And as much as some fans complain about the 'same old' lyrical staple of Deicide---the band actually moved away somewhat from their unrelenting, vitriolic anti-Christian verses, on their last album. But sith, this isn't something to get all worked up over, or parade as your Exhibit A of supposed incriminating 'evidence' of the 'vicious' influence of Death Metal, or Deicide LOL *btw, Glen Benton and gang have been "spewing" not the 'bullshit' that your ears have heard, but pure death metal awesomeness, for actually 20, not ten years.
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 03:57 AM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    edit: sith, I know I've rambled enough, and it's unnecessary to go on about this, further. But since dm's 'lyrics' has been the hot button issue of contention here, all along, I had to tell you another conventional opinion of arguably an ovewhelming bulk of death metal and extreme music fans, in general...i.e the 'lyrics' are the 'least important' (occasionally even irrelevant to some fans, some of the time),, aspect of a death metal band's music. It's always been foremost about the 'music' itself----the guitar riffage, killer leads and all, the dynamic drums/percussion, and yes, the vocals, as crucial as they are---though even that (and an often inadequately audible bass guitar) play a slightly second fiddle to the primacy of lead guitars and drums. So, if you never looked at the lyric sheet, and without that you wouldn't understand much of the words anyway, you could give the music itself, another go. There might be some hope, yet. Hahaha
    Well, obviously I don't agree with everything you say, but I don't take umbrage at your expressing it. I do think musicians and performers bear responsibility when they write something that's potentially damaging to others. And I have read the lyrics to several DM and BM bands (I know y'all don't lump those two subgenres of extreme metal together -- but let's face it, to the minds of most, the differences are largely academic), and my eyes don't deceive me. The lyrics advocate extremely bad shit, even if the musicians claim they personally don't. That's such a copout. I agree with Ashley that people are responsible for their own actions, but the fact remains that there are a lot of damaged individuals out there, some undiagnosed, some off their meds, some just immature, who feed off that darkness and reflect it, whether that means they get desensitized through extreme music, films and video games to the point that a suffering individual is something to take pictures of on a cell phone, or if it means they rape, attack, or harm another themselves. Or if it means they get so despondent through a constant diet of negative thoughts, that they off themselves. And that's not propaganda. People have done bad stuff with far less contributory factors. And that's exactly what I'd describe it as, not a cause for why someone does something, but a contributing factor, of which there are many. But why add one more?! Music is supposed to be art and entertainment. It shouldn't shy away from the darkness, but it's supposed to point the way to the light. That's what Sabbath did.

    But as regards the music itself, a few months back I listened to a few songs from Emperor. Now before you all start hollering, I know they're a black metal band. But it's close enough for me to make this point. I can recognize the talent they have to play like that. It's very skilled. It's not my cup of tea, mostly because I can't get into the cookiee monster vocals at all (I can't see how these guys won't get throat cancer in a few years). But at least lyrically, there's some interesting things there (which reminded me a lot of Celtic Frost) that tell stories and weird stuff, to be sure, but at least not the same tired tripe and vicious bullshit that Deicide's been spewing for ten years.

    You want to tell me that these guys aren't advocating bad things:

    From the song "Kill the Christian":

    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian, kill the christian
    Kill the christian

    Armies of darkness unite
    Destroy their temples and churches with fire
    Where in his world will you hide
    Sentenced to death, the anointment of christ

    In due time your path leads to me
    Put you out of your misery

    The death of prediction
    Kill the christian

    Kill the christian...dead!

    Leave a comment:


  • RLP4ever
    replied
    ^^ buddy, I'm glad and grateful that you actually cared to get through my lengthy reply to sith, at all. Of course, you'd be inclined to agree entirely with what I wrote, though it would be just as cool with me even if you disagreed some, and told me about it.

    I'm totally on your side about what you said about the needless disrespecting and boycotting the 'music' for the 'sins' of the 'creators' / 'artistes' of said music. I've already explicitly stated my own opinions on this very issue, in another thread discussion, several months ago. But since it's been raised again here, I'll reiterate that NOTHING a musician(s) thinks, does or says (political and religious views included) will ever compel me to abandon and quit 'supporting' their 'music' and buying their album releases, attending shows etc etc IF I happen to genuinely admire and enjoy the actual music they play. And this applies to ALL musicians, not just metallers. And the more notorious incidents of violence and the odd homicidal case concerning Black Metal, well, I've already often stated how I've obviously strongly and publicly disapproved of them---BUT, as always, craven critics with an 'agenda' smell blood and pounce on and pillory the entire genre, wholesale. My criticisms regarding BM have been mainly musical in nature and my feeling that many of them have sacrificed ability and creativity in favour of 'image' and actually, perversely helped reinforce some of the very unfair, ignorant stereotypes about them that sometimes circulate in the sensationalist media, and indeed from the occasional post by some random poster, in these forums. I'd maintain, though, that I still listen to (and always will) love a lot of black metal musicians (with inflammatory views and/or violent actions on their resume) that would otherwise not be welcome guests to the homes of some people here.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby
    Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be.
    Ashley, it's obvious how I would never obey this particular commandment---but what in heaven's name do you mean by "that they owe you their person life"? I'm wildly guessing here, but are you obliquely implying that they deserve to be put to death---for their 'despicable' personal actions? If you are, then we have a very fundamental disagreement here, that maybe we aren't allowed to discuss further, given the forum rules.

    And, it actually does matter a whole lot (to me) 'how brilliant or talented the artist may be'. As I stressed above, if I dig the band and love the music, my dollars will always go to buying their records.

    Also, I probably cannot quote everything you have said that I wanna specifically reply to here, but lemme just make some quick responses to a few comments you made earlier. I realise a lot of it actually is stuff we've already debated, in the past. But still,

    Savatage was ALWAYS basically a 'power metal' band with some heavy, atmospheric undertones to their sound. They could never be seriously called a death metal band of any sort, nor any significant influence on dm bands, either. It just is not the case.

    You repeat your old perplexing remarks about how the true origins of death metal can be traced back to '81----heck, even thrash hadn't totally found its feet at that particular year---and death metal was several years away from being even properly conceived, let alone created and executed or recognised as such. I don't wanna go into too much detail here, but you seem to repeat some of your older arguments about how DM started out as so much more creative and impressive in the early years, but then swiftly degenerated into a depressing mediocrity and boredome, ever since. I'd unequivocally and completely dispute and reject that point of view---notwithstanding the contributions of Death, Possessed, Celtic Frost, and a handful of others to the conception of this new genre. Death metal really exploded with the advent of the Florida legends Morbid Angel, Malevolent Creation, Obituary, Deicide, (the NY imports to Florida, Cannibal Corpse) and the NYDM pioneers like Suffocation and Immolation. This was all in '88-89 and is conventionally regarded as the authentic emergence of real deal death metal, as we know it.

    Next, I don't quite agree with your depictions of fans' "age" being such a determinant about their attitudes to the music and their behaviours. I might fall in the 'middle' of the age segments you described---i.e I had initiation into death metal as a high school senior, back in '93 when death metal was actually in some of its historical, creative apex. However, I simply don't think that 'older' 'mature?' death metal fans are the only ones more likely not to buy into the 'satanic' 'evil' 'gory' imagery of some of these bands. I'd argue neither do an overwhelming majority of younger fans, today. Seriously, I don't know any death metal fan (young or older) that seriously pursues satanic, violent, anti-social activities or raves about such things or cites the bands as their inspiration for all of this. Too many of you seem astonishingly ignorant about the typical, average death metal fan, anywhere. Young fans are profoundly passionate about the music, they go to concerts, buy shiploads of records and merch, are perfectly 'mature'-----not a bunch of rage-filled, demented louts indulging in some perversion.
    They don't have to change a thing to get the approval or the blessings of non-fans.

    Besides, for all the customary stridently anti-religion stance of a majority of extreme metal acts, personal religious views and preferences have had no huge impact on most fans and the bands they swear by. Even believers in God and Christianity are known to be dm enthusiasts---as are agnostics and atheists.

    I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.
    Ashley, this reads like an incoherent mess, honestly. But what sense I can make of it seems to suggest that you find 'modern DM' (timeline??) and BM have next to nothing in 'artistic quality' but is only just 'STATIC NOISE' to you. We must inhabit different worlds, entirely. To call a lot of very cool dm and bm, today---as static noise---is totally beyond the pale and beggars belief, really. I'll let this one go.


    Which is precisely how I feel about the modern Extreme Metal outfits. Early DM had variety, both in their music and vocal approach, there was a LOT less growling and the guitar were not always detuned. Because it all sounds the same now, it is indeed, as you put it, BORING.
    This somewhat helps explain your outlook. I gotta say, thank god for the adoption of more vocal variations and the perfection of and more plentiful 'growling' in death metal. Detuned guitars is a given--and far from the main thing here---it was always mainly about killer riffs and leads (and the occasional bursts of soloing), which came in torrents from the best players and acts in dm, for the past twenty years.

    And gosh, it absolutely DOES NOT 'all sound the same now'. Need I even comment on 'BORING' ??
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 02:08 AM.

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be.
    Art transcends its creators. I am all for artists that commit despicable acts being locked up in prison... but they've put hard work and effort into putting out art to be enjoyed... its only right that it be explored and given an unbiased listen.

    To ignore music simply because of the misdeeds of its creators, would be a crime against the art world.

    Also I don't really have a lot to say to RLP's post, other than that he's right and that I agree entirely.

    Leave a comment:


  • mythology
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    LOL! And you're right, Waylon Jennings was the man!

    You are correct Waylon rules, but you're both missing Hank Williams. He was the king. With an honourary mention for Gram Parsons of course.

    Leave a comment:


  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire
    I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance. Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

    You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.

    I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

    The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.

    But if you can list a few bands that you believe have risen above that to produce something of value, let me know. I may have strong views, but I'm not close-minded, and I can recognize something of value even if it doesn't suit my tastes.
    For somebody that is blatantly so profoundly contemptuous and dismissive of the entire death metal/black metal genres, I reckon that supplying the names of a few more such bands to you sith, would only be feeding your personal troughs of hate and ridicule for these genres/bands that you have already made abundantly clear by now. Or no, you actually asked for 'a few bands' that 'have risen above all that' to 'produce something of value'. C'mon sith, this is a silly stretch. I cannot imagine trying to recommened death metal bands----to a committed non-fan like yourself, no less---that might miraculously pass muster by your stringent standards of what constitutes music '"of value" ...or what else? non-evil, moral, virtuous music, perhaps. This reeks of sanctimonious clap-trap to me, honestly. Btw, you cite a handful of extreme bands---a heavy metal/avant-garde act (CF), two top-notch veteran thrash acts, a black metal legend, and of course, one of my own all-time favourites, the Anglo-American death-grindcore legends i.e Napalm Death. That, though, can scarcely be called "giving the genre a chance". Not by a long shot. It’s skimming the wafer-thin surface of the death metal ocean, at best. You gotta be totally kidding me and the other like-minded fans in the extreme metal community. But, you apparently already cringed at what you heard, so I'll grant you this much; you naturally didn't have much incentive or desire to explore deeper and wider, properly and seriously, and with a genuinely 'open mind'. Also, I've already accepted how you obviously find extreme metal music "utterly unlistenable"---but "extremely derivative" is an exaggerated, and pretty one-sided allegation. Most rock-metal music is inherently, even inevitably, 'derivative', to varying extents. However, as much as latter-day wanna-bes and near-clones have sometimes vied for fans' attention, in the death metal/extreme music 'scene', worldwide, (and this is all too common in other genres, too) I'd argue that the death metal world has not been any more (in fact, actually mostly a lot less) 'derivative' than their rock-metal peers and other artistes on the genre spectrum. I've seen and heard plentiful stylistic innovations of all sorts in death metal, over the past two decades of its prominent existence, than I've seriously seen in the waning charms of stripped-down, commercial construct of contemporary and recent traditional rock/metal----let alone some of the other genres in the mainstream marketplace of mindless mediocrity. And luckily too, in death metal, even some of the genre-specific musical features that have remained constant have been altered and finessed by virtuoso players, old and new alike, to keep me largely content---despite my harsh dissing about many acts I found second-rate or worse. Again, that’s a curse afflicting EVERY genre, that exists. And what exactly is "actually artistic" that you imply will garner some of your respect for death metal bands that are that way? Is a 'Never Say Die'-type'artistry' the only kind worthy of respect and adulation? I'll maintain, with the experience and appreciation of a bona fide fan of the genre, that musical "artistry" is actually an exceptional forte of countless death metal musicians I have heard and admired, to date.

    You allege that the music had ceased to be ‘extreme’ a long time ago, but has been plain ‘boring’ instead. I can’t argue against somebody about their finding something about some music exceedingly ‘boring’, but man, besides begging the question about just how ‘more extreme’ can the music get anymore, fact is, you sound out of your depth to say that it hasn’t been ‘extreme’ for a long time. Only you would know what all constitutes ‘extremeness’ to you, in the music we’re discussing, but I’d seriously suggest that extreme bands have continually stretched boundaries, pushed the extreme metal envelope further and to places previously unimagined, not always with spectacular results, I’ll admit---but the directions, innovations, technicality, songwriting craft and avenues of extremeness brought on by many modern dm/grindcore and other extreme music bands of the last decade, have been nothing short of impressive and lent much impetus to the genre, going forward.

    And, it’s not quite true at all how we fans, mostly always resisted “diversity and progress” and/or “hated the very idea of it”. Alright, I concede that if ‘diversity and progress’ meant a brutal-oriented act suddenly being awash in synths, keys, frequent flirting with ‘clean’ vocals, and various other mainstream, watered-down approaches and outright gimmicks to their sound and songwriting, then of course, the fans (and it’s not really about being “purists” per se) can only be expected to feel highly let-down, furious even, at this climbdown. Stubborn, demanding fans clamouring for more of the same and sensitive to specific musical alterations they find alienating, are to be found all over the music map, not merely the niche havens of the death metal underground, you know. Yet, I can speak for myself and the average death metal fan when I say that a majority of us long-standing, lifetime fans, have always been sufficiently tolerant toward ‘diversity’ in this genre----and we actually got tons of it, some great, some sucky, whether we wished for it or not.

    I had already sensed that the ‘lyrical’ aspect to death metal is your primary, permanent bane here. I cannot stress enough how it’s ridiculous and patently disingenuous of anybody to pretend to take a lot of the lyrics so friggin’ seriously, literally and in an overly moralist, judgemental manner. Offended souls like you have a built-in boon, here sith, i.e death metal lyrics invariably need an album lyric sheet to make sense of; they are otherwise predominantly and intentionally (in the artistic sense) indecipherable (even to experienced ears like mine). LOL But you’re being hilariously wrong-headed in insisting that these musicians are, in any way at all, actually ‘promoting’, glorifying, and ‘advocating’ murder and violence, depravity and general mayhem etc etc… This is asinine agit-prop and this shit just never sticks. I can appreciate so many people being offended by and finding the lyrics a major turn-off, but to compulsively and so clumsily ascribe some of the more (not necessarily always) perverse, gore-laden lyrical content of death metal---not to the context and the sonic attributes of the extreme musicianship itself---but instead to the actual lives, personalities and very motives and agendas of the musicians themselves—is just flat-out falsification of facts. This is the true ‘indefensible’ canard, here.

    So ok, you say the lyrical angle to death metal precludes the genre ever getting your respect. So be it. But it’s curious how you seem to depict the general, passionate fan-worship accorded to so many of the acclaimed death metal bands and individual musicians, as some alternate religion/deity and idolatry by the fans. Have you ever paused to consider some of the classic rock ‘cults’ of fans and many members of that particular herd that come across as pious, pedantic folks that love to preach about their Everyman heroes, tastes and ideals----and lecture extreme metal fans, for one, about the intricacies of “real music”.?? Since you bring it up, I’d say tons of death metal musicians do rightly inspire admiration, even awe, among their fans, for their phenomenal ‘musical’ talents, AND some of their lyrics betray an acute appreciation for the human condition and other truths about our faith, foibles, lives and actions etc etc. It isn’t really so much as a ‘celebration of darkness’ as you implied, but more a debunking of myths and hypocrisies of all sorts, and the unveiling of reality. It’s also a deeply, instinctive, internalized channeling of anger, frustration, hostility at how wrong things are, through the brutality and intensity of the music. Hopes and aspirations—even philosophical and political realms are often explored, in dm lyrics. All of this is nothing to sneeze at, surely. Prolific amounts of lyrics undoubtedly ‘offend’ and are obviously outside the comfort zones and sensibilities of many people, but that does not make the lyrics especially vile and “evil”, much less the artistes that sing (or growl, roar, scream, snarl etc) them. Butt was right in guessing that I have met, known and spoken with dozens of dm artistes over the past decade and more. I have found a mighty majority of them to be not only perfectly 'normal' men (not merely in that most of them have married, raised families, loved their wives and kids and family, bought homes, travelled, took vacations, worked hard at other jobs, paid taxes, gave to charity yada yada) but came across as uncommonly intelligent individuals, widely-read, well-spoken, with educated opinions on a whole range of issues, were humble, gracious, generous in spirit, always considerate toward their fans, took their jobs as musicians very seriously and just regular guys that other regular guys would feel swell to hang out with and chat and learn about and love they music they create. They aren't the morbid, perverted sickos bent on 'cashing in on' dysfunctional youth and touting some vile agenda to indoctrinate the minds of maladjusted adolescents and adults, as you so shockingly insinuate here, sith. It's utter lunacy to paint the picture this way. It is like Bob Dole and his ilk, the 'moral brigade', all over again. This has NEVER been what death metal or its performers have been about. Mercifully, too many people, certainly the numerous fans, everywhere, have known of this smear campaign for a long time.

    Sith, the reason I even chose to respond in such length (and I must have rambled like a bore, as usual ) is because I honestly find your arguments—not all of them, to be sure (especially during the tennis match and rallies you had with Butt ) to be increasingly and stridently ill-informed, intolerant, inaccurate and astoundingly one-dimensional in its thrust. You are highly unlikely to ever even grudgingly embrace death metal or its kindred, for reasons, justified or not, are your own heartfelt reasons, nevertheless----- but that is scant justification to so cavalierly, and gratuitously, denigrate death metal the way you have done on this thread, so far. Your scurrilous remarks about Cannibal Corpse (and their fans) is a stand-out travesty, I won’t forget in a hurry.

    edit: sith, I know I've rambled enough, and it's unnecessary to go on about this, further. But since dm's 'lyrics' has been the hot button issue of contention here, all along, I had to tell you another conventional opinion of arguably an ovewhelming bulk of death metal and extreme music fans, in general...i.e the 'lyrics' are the 'least important' (occasionally even irrelevant to some fans, some of the time),, aspect of a death metal band's music. It's always been foremost about the 'music' itself----the guitar riffage, killer leads and all, the dynamic drums/percussion, and yes, the vocals, as crucial as they are---though even that (and an often inadequately audible bass guitar) play a slightly second fiddle to the primacy of lead guitars and drums. So, if you never looked at the lyric sheet, and without that you wouldn't understand much of the words anyway, you could give the music itself, another go. There might be some hope, yet. Hahaha

    I'll have to respond, more briefly to Ashley, later. Butt, too, but then a lot of his sentiments are in synch with mine, anyway.
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-18-2009, 06:42 AM.

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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    You both are right in a way, but are we forgetting to look at what is most important?

    Sith is right about endless violence desensitizing people. Once you've seen violence and you accept it as a way of life, then you are not appalled by it. When you lose respect for human life, then yes, you DO need to be dealt with accordingly. Is it a coicidence that soldiers that have battled in combat have deeply scarred psychological problems?

    And Butt is right about detractors from the music refusing to admit that just because the music is violent does not make the artists/listener a violent person. If anything it is the equivalent to a punching bag, a harmless way to get rid of aggression.

    The blame for any action lies on the person, no one else. Those whom disagree need to obtain a copy of the book תָוִית מְיַדַעַת לָרֶדֶת (גֶשֶׁם), the English translation of course. If you cannot accept the honesty there then Sith is also right, that experience is the only way you will learn the error.

    Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be. Michael Jackson was a very talented artist, who helped open doors to a lot of other people, but don't forget he was also a homosexual pedophile. Since we do not enjoy sitting before a rapist or murderer and shaking their hands, means we should do to anyone. Not forget their actions simply because they've made a song or two that you find enjoyment in. Their actions are still despicable. This is not an opinion of mine, yours, his, hers, theirs, leaders, followers, etc... It is a fact of life, especially as far as the murderers go.

    THOU SHALL NOT KILL(.)

    That statement does not say, "Unless your a musician", "Unless your political", "Unless your a certain race", "Unless your rich".

    People who argue that are forgetting that no matter your race, creed, religion, age, gender, upbringing, beliefs, we are all human. If one human is forbidden to do something, then ALL humans are forbidden from it, nothing makes you special or gives you special priveledges to commit vile acts.

    Ever heard of Altruism?

    Now onto something else...

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Ashley, when you say Savatage, do you mean the same band that did Hall of the Mountain King and Power of the Night? Great band, but I always saw them as either a power-metal band or even early progressive metal, sort of in the same category as Helloween.
    Yes, the same band, but as I wrote before, their four releases: Sirens, The Dungeons Are Calling, Live In Clearwater, City Beneath The Surface. Both critics and early DM bands cite Savatage as not only a huge influence on their sound and style but that they, Criss Oliva in paticular, laid the groundwork for all Death Metal that followed.

    Critics say it: Here Is One! - Or This should probably wrap up the confusion.
    Last edited by Ashley Dalby; 11-18-2009, 12:54 AM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Earlier, you equated violent lyrics from DM and BM with certain horror films. Now you're saying video-games are a whole other thing. Sigh. I think you're just being difficult. The advocates of violent video games have made claims similar to what you've made. At any rate, the results of the study on violent games should at the very least show that what I've been saying is not without merit.

    Well, I'm going to bed. If I come across other studies, I'll pass them along.

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Well, what I meant for you to see in the Wiki article is the study they cite on the desensitizing effects of violence in mass media. The article states:

    "Research on emotional reactions to violent messages has been concerned with the possibility that continued exposure to violence in the mass media will result in desensitization, that is, that exposure to media violence will undermine feelings of concern, empathy, or sympathy that viewers might have toward victims of actual violence."
    Bolded the key words here. The words in the wiki article haven't actually proven, it just mentions that it shows CONCERN with the POSSIBILITY of desensitization.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Here is the study:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...48b7af4cc732a1

    If you don't have access to the article, read at least the abstract, which briefly sums up some of the findings.
    I do not have access to the article, I need to register for such a thing. I did read the abstract though, and you still haven't really proven anything.

    Video games and music are two entirely different platforms of media entirely. Surely you're not arguing that having a game paint an image of a violent situation in your mind, allowing you to play it out as if you're the one doing such a deed, and rewarding you for doing such a thing, is similar to hearing some words in a death metal song, BLATANTLY meant to be tongue-in-cheek dark humor?

    You are grasping for straws.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Well, what I meant for you to see in the Wiki article is the study they cite on the desensitizing effects of violence in mass media. The article states:

    "Research on emotional reactions to violent messages has been concerned with the possibility that continued exposure to violence in the mass media will result in desensitization, that is, that exposure to media violence will undermine feelings of concern, empathy, or sympathy that viewers might have toward victims of actual violence."

    Here is the study:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...48b7af4cc732a1

    If you don't have access to the article, read at least the abstract, which briefly sums up some of the findings.

    Leave a comment:

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