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  • The Butt
    replied
    I am not censoring anything. I am simply saying, that y'know, you have no factual basis, no studies that prove that death metal and death metal lyrics desensitize people to violence. So I don't really see the point in posting baseless arguments without facts.

    There's no need to post the short wiki article... I know what desensitization is, and I am aware that it exists; just not in this specific instance. That's such a terrible argument that I don't even really know where to begin.

    But until you can post a study giving cold hard facts, stating that death metal desensitizes people to violence, you really can't make the claim you're making. You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you, not I. It's not my fault you're failing to deliver.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    You can do research as well. You're making it sound like the existence of psychological desensitization doesn't exist, or is some kooky conspiracy theory. There's a lot of information available.

    Here, a two second look at Wiki brought up some psychological sources validating what I said about the effects of desensitization on people in various settings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desensi...on_(psychology). That's just one source.

    As to my tone, I speak the way I feel. It's honest. And for someone who cares so much about the freedom of speech of DM bands, does it not seem a little wrong that you'd want to censor what I say or how I say it?

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. A look at history and sociology will show you that people are a lot more easily manipulated than you seem to think, and almost always through their emotions. Music stirs emotions. Words stir emotions. Emotions lead to actions.
    Not always.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Tens of thousands of wars and acts of violence show this to be true. Heck, demagogues have used music and words to stir people towards feelings of nationalism, racial pride and hatred for centuries. And besides that, people can be desensitized.
    Citations?

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    What do you call twenty people standing around watching a women getting raped and doing nothing to help her? You believe that because you're a logical person and that it seemingly doesn't affect you, that it doesn't affect others. But it does. And you may come to see the truth of that in your lifetime. Then, I guess you'll have your proof.
    Irrelevant to the point at hand, and a fallacy to boot. I can listen to a Cannibal Corpse CD and realize that it is just dark humor, tongue-in-cheek lyrics. Obviously if I were to see something like that happen, it would affect me, and I wouldn't be desensitized to it.

    If you honestly believe that a Cannibal Corpse CD is going to stir people into actually raping a woman with a broken shard of glass or some shit, then I can safely say that you are a conspiracist. Hell, 4chan has a bigger chance of getting someone to do these things, than a simple death metal song.

    Also I'll thank you to step off that high horse what with your believing that your way is the "truth" and that I will "see", blah blah blah. Fact is, I've provided logical evidence to support my arguments. You have not. You've provided conspiracy theories, propaganda, and "look at the lyrics this is bad lol". Tbh, I think I've provided more "truth" here than you have. So until you can provide facts, don't bother replying.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    They're not "endorsing" violence any more than the directors of Saw, Halloween I/II, etc are.
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. A look at history and sociology will show you that people are a lot more easily manipulated than you seem to think, and almost always through their emotions. Music stirs emotions. Words stir emotions. Emotions lead to actions. Tens of thousands of wars and acts of violence show this to be true. Heck, demagogues have used music and words to stir people towards feelings of nationalism, racial pride and hatred for centuries. And besides that, people can be desensitized. What do you call twenty people standing around watching a women getting raped and doing nothing to help her? You believe that because you're a logical person and that it seemingly doesn't affect you, that it doesn't affect others. But it does. And you may come to see the truth of that in your lifetime. Then, I guess you'll have your proof.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Dude, you don't see it, and you're not going to see it. If I spent all day shooting reams of data at you, you won't accept it because you simply... don't... want... to. Just pull out any freaking song from Cannibal Corpse and tell me that a steady diet of that is healthy? Gimme a break! It's so obvious you'd have to be blind (or young) to not recognize the truth of that statement.
    It's not obvious (or true) at all. The simple facts are that, you have no data that would prove me wrong because it doesn't exist. Whatever "harm" you're seeing here is all in your mind. You've given no backing to your argument other than "look at the lyrics this can't be healthy lol!!!1!one"... no logical backing whatsoever.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I absolutely think the torture porn films desensitize people to violence. There is no question in my mind about that.
    I watch gore/slasher flicks because they're fun/entertaining/exhilarating watches... it's a break from the lighter/fluffy themes of everything else... it's simple and to the point. No pretentious or pseudo-artistic bullshit, just exhilarating, balls-to-the-wall gore.

    Same way with death metal. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I'm all for artistic expression, but not audience manipulation. There's more than one way besides shouting "fire!" in a crowded building to damage minds and hearts. That's what you're refusing to see. And that's not my problem that you refuse to see it. I've made my choice that these things are wrong and damaging. You're free to think what you want. I'm not stopping you.
    And you're free to believe that these things are wrong/damaging. Just don't think that your opinions can't be wrong, and are immune to scrutiny.

    It has not been factually proven that these kind of lyrics are damaging, and me and RLP have actually provided logical evidence that points to the opposite. It's not my fault you refuse to acknowledge simple logic, and continue to embrace propaganda.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You declare any damn thing you feel like. You see, I'm not concerned about winning or losing debates. Nor was I attacking you.
    I fail to see how trying to put me in a negative light for supporting artists that just so happen to write lyrics that you disagree with, is not "attacking" me.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I'm simply telling you how I feel, and it's an opportunity for you to reexamine your own motives for continuing to stand beside artists who push an agenda of violence.
    lolpropoganda... You honestly believe there's some sort of "agenda" here? That death metal musicians are willingly and knowingly putting out music in the hopes that people "take up the torch" and partake in such acts? No. You're being a conspiracist here.

    And no, I do not feel I should reexamine my own motives for anything. I stand beside these artists because they put out highly artistic music... despite their lyrics that go against the norm, that showcase the darker side of what happens in the real world. I applaud them for what they do.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You say you don't believe in violence, but that's exactly what they're endorsing. And I honestly don't know how I can respect a man who defends so-called "artists" who advocate evil acts. I don't even *get* how you don't see it.
    They're not "endorsing" violence any more than the directors of Saw, Halloween I/II, etc are.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    So I noticed you have no logical/factual rebuttal to the rest of my post.
    Dude, you don't see it, and you're not going to see it. If I spent all day shooting reams of data at you, you won't accept it because you simply... don't... want... to. Just pull out any freaking song from Cannibal Corpse and tell me that a steady diet of that is healthy? Gimme a break! It's so obvious you'd have to be blind (or young) to not recognize the truth of that statement.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    To put it in a way you could understand; surely you don't think that directors (and fans) of gore/slasher/halloween flicks are mentally deranged and psychopathic, as you seem to have unfairly, baselessly stated? The same logic applies here... death metal is merely the sonic equivalent of a gore or slasher flick.
    I absolutely think the torture porn films desensitize people to violence. There is no question in my mind about that.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    It's justification because artists have whatever rights to express what they wish through their lyrics. The actions they perform in real life is their own business. And while I don't condone these actions, I do condone artistic expression, so I feel it's only right to give these artists unbiased, open-minded listens.
    I'm all for artistic expression, but not audience manipulation. There's more than one way besides shouting "fire!" in a crowded building to do damage to people, and this case it's to their minds and hearts. That's what you're refusing to see. And that's not my problem that you refuse to see it. I've made my choice that these things are wrong and damaging. You're free to think what you want. I'm not stopping you.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    First rule of debates: attack the argument, not the arguer. I declare win.
    You declare any damn thing you feel like. You see, I'm not concerned about winning or losing debates. Nor was I attacking you. I'm simply telling you how I feel, and it's an opportunity for you to reexamine your own motives for continuing to stand beside artists who push an agenda of violence. You say you don't believe in violence, but that's exactly what they're endorsing. And I honestly don't know how I can respect a man who defends so-called "artists" who advocate evil acts. I don't even *get* how you don't see it.
    Last edited by thesithempire; 11-17-2009, 10:19 PM.

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  • The Butt
    replied
    So I noticed you have no logical/factual rebuttal to the rest of my post.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    We're acting parallel?! Now you're just being silly.

    Let's get some things clear. I don't want them to exist because I know they're harmful, but I'm not involved in any iconoclastic movement to burn them or legislate against them. I respect freedom of speech, even if what that band is doing is an gross abuse of that privilege.
    You may not be involved in any movement or anything, but your intentions and "justifications" are one and the same.

    This "harm" you're speaking of doesn't exist. Fact. Until you can show me cold hard facts proving otherwise (and not just "lololol one person I know killed a man to Canibul corps" or some bullshit study on Columbine that proves nothing), you're wrong.

    To put it in a way you could understand; surely you don't think that directors (and fans) of gore/slasher/halloween flicks are mentally deranged and psychopathic, as you seem to have unfairly, baselessly stated? The same logic applies here... death metal is merely the sonic equivalent of a gore or slasher flick.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    But you're free to go ahead and believe that because the members of Cannibal Corpse are family men that it means the evil (yes, evil, call it anything you want. I know what my eyes see and what my conscience tells me is right and wrong) filth they're spewing is nothing but harmless kidding around, then that's you're opinion, but in my opinion, it's justification because you like the music (and I hope that's all you like about it).
    Again, you're using biased, objective words like "evil" (as I said before, evil is a manmade concept and is what one makes of it. Every human by nature is a varying degree of evil) and "filth" which make your "arguments" very hard to take seriously in a logical context.

    It's justification because artists have whatever rights to express what they wish through their lyrics. The actions they perform in real life is their own business. And while I don't condone these actions, I do condone artistic expression, so I feel it's only right to give these artists unbiased, open-minded listens.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    But for the record, I wasn't commenting on their musical ability anyway (though I think the quality of the output leaves a lot to be desired).

    It will never be played in this house, and I will never respect that band.
    cool story bro

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    And at this moment, I'm not sure how much I respect those who defend men who write lyrics that advocate the rape, torture and murder of innocents.
    Nice ad hominem.

    First rule of debates: attack the argument, not the arguer.

    ---------- Post added at 11:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------

    I declare win.
    Last edited by The Butt; 11-17-2009, 09:54 PM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    They have all the bearing in the world, since you and those Christian extremists are acting parralel right now. You're (erroneously) tying lyrics, and the actions of the artists or fans to musical quality or legitimacy, and saying the genres don't deserve to exist merely because you find them uncomfortable.[COLOR="silver"].
    We're acting parallel?! Now you're just being silly.

    Let's get some things clear. I don't want them to exist because I know they're harmful, but I'm not involved in any iconoclastic movement to burn them or legislate against them. I respect freedom of speech, even if what that band is doing is an gross abuse of that privilege.

    But you're free to go ahead and believe that because the members of Cannibal Corpse are family men that it means the evil (yes, evil, call it anything you want. I know what my eyes see and what my conscience tells me is right and wrong) filth they're spewing is nothing but harmless kidding around, then that's you're opinion, but in my opinion, it's justification because you like the music (and I hope that's all you like about it). But for the record, I wasn't commenting on their musical ability anyway (though I think the quality of the output leaves a lot to be desired).

    It will never be played in this house, and I will never respect that band. And at this moment, I'm not sure how much I respect those who defend men who write lyrics that advocate the rape, torture and murder of innocents.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    It deserves to be ignored, and they deserve to be in jail, which some of them are. I won't give them a dime, even if I thought their vile noise had worth.
    That is your opinion. Your opinion does not change the fact that the genres do have artistic merit, and that they deserve to exist and be listened to.

    You are being close-minded and ignorant. Yeah I played that card.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    If that bastard was alive, I wouldn't give him a single dime either, even though I think his music is brilliant. And I'd put his ass in jail as well.
    Oh, I would have him in jail too. But that doesn't change the fact that musically he was brilliant. One would be an idiot to dismiss the (frankly, brilliant) music of an artist, over something as trivial as an artist's personal life or views... as much as we may disagree with them.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I understand hate more than you know. It is nothing but corruption from within, which you'll find out if you continue to stoke its flames. Don't be misled into thinking it's strength. It's enslavement, and giving in to it, like cruelty, is a weakness.
    That is where our opinions diverge. It is an emotion like any other. Emotions are what makes us human. To simply censor whatever emotions we find uncomfortable is to deny what makes us human.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    We're not programmed with hate. It's a consequence of our imperfection. To be truly strong is to transcend our darker emotions. Just as thought gives birth to emotion, all emotion fuels action, which is why hate is so dangerous. Or do you think it's ok to do violence to other people because you happen to not like them? Or because they do things you disagree with?
    I don't believe in violence. To be truly strong is to feel your emotions, but still have complete control of them. I HATE a lot of my fellow humans... simply because a lot of them deserve the hate. Close-minded assholes, bigots, etc.

    I would never do a violent act against another human being because I do not believe in violence.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Besides all that, if you don't like the ideals of 'peace and love', how is it you listen to Black Sabbath, when that's exactly what so many of their songs espouse?!
    Many of Sabbath's songs are about, as Ashley said, "the real world". A lot of their songs reveal the darker (yet sadly true) side of life, and the people that live in it.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You think it's mature to advocate rape, murder, molestation, cannibalism and genocide? Does that sound like something a mature person thinks or talks about on a regular basis? As you noted, this isn't tongue-in-cheek. It's a manifestation of psychopathy and corrosive rage.
    I do not advocate any of these things. But in the case of the death metal bands (with the gore lyrics), it's just lyrics. RLP has probably spoken with countless members of death metal bands... he can back me up here. They are all normal guys in real life. George Fisher himself (the singer of Cannibal Corpse), is a family man with a wife and kids, that plays fucking World of Warcraft for christs sake. So your "argument" (it has no logical or factual basis so I'm hesitant to even call it that... in a debate that would get laughed at) is invalid.

    In the case of the black metal bands (who deal with hate/anti-Christian/Satanic lyrics), that is their beliefs, which are no more or less valid than your own. I believe in god, but I know many people who believe that religion is a crock of shit and that God does not exist. I am tolerant of that.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You don't need studies to see common sense.
    There is no common sense. And yes, you are making a claim here so yes you do need facts to back up arguments. That's generally how debates work, champ.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Immersing oneself in evil thoughts and fantasies will produce nothing good.
    "Evil" is a manmade concept, and is what we make of it. Humans are selfish and evil by very nature, to varying degrees.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    No, it won't make everyone spree killers. But I know for myself and what I've seen over the years that it is psychologically damaging. Believe what you want.
    Explain. How have you seen this, and what is your factual backing? Without any facts, I'm afraid your argument isn't true.

    Ball's in your court.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You can invest in defending indefensible filth all you want,
    That is biased, and is opinion. Not a logical or valid argument in the slightest.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    but if it was your sister, mother, wife or daughter who became a victim of some asshole who got all charged up after months of listening to Cannibal Corpse, you'd learn the hard way that what I'm saying is true.
    The actions of some random asshole has no bearing on the musical or artistic quality of a band. I feel no need to blindly dismiss a good, artistic band because some random dick was stupid enough to actually kill a person to a Cannibal Corpse song... or because the artist decided to burn a church, etc.

    That simply means that that specific person already had mental problems to begin with.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    It doesn't. There is nothing in "Highway to Hell" or "Suicide Solution" to remotely compare to the lyrics in countless black and/or death metal bands. The acts of the extremist "Christian" reich who persecuted Ozzy and AC/DC have no bearing on this subject.
    They have all the bearing in the world, since you and those Christian extremists are acting parralel right now. You're (erroneously) tying lyrics, and the actions of the artists or fans to musical quality or legitimacy, and saying the genres don't deserve to exist merely because you find them uncomfortable.

    ---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.
    Black metal is not just static noise, and is damn well full of artistic quality. Being more harsh and abrasive musically does not make a genre "less artistic".

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Ashley, when you say Savatage, do you mean the same band that did Hall of the Mountain King and Power of the Night? Great band, but I always saw them as either a power-metal band or even early progressive metal, sort of in the same category as Helloween.

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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance.
    Since you only specify those five as what you gave a chance to, I would say you did NOT give the genre a chance, since you barely listened to it. Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus and Mercyful Fate are ALL Heavy Metal bands that may have done one or two tracks that bordered Death Metal. Napalm Death is the only one that can be considered Death Metal. Slayer may have helped influence the genre but the characteristics of DM can be traced back to the blasting sound of Gil Moore's percussion of the 1970's and Savatage's first four official releases. Did you ever try Dark Avenger, early Savatage, Possessed, Death, Carnage, Dismember, Unleashed, Necrophagia, Dark Tranquillity, At the Gates, In Flames, Autopsy, Hellwitch, Obliveon, Revenant, Viogression, Immolation, Atheist, Cynic, Obituary, Nihilist or Entombed if you will. It may be too late since you already dislike the genre but had you listened to those instead, especially the first five, you may think differently.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

    You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.
    I think it goes back to the same point made in the rap topic. The originaters did it because they wanted to write about society instead of the fluff mainstream offers us. If you actually knew one of the members in one of the founding DM bands, you would see most of them were actually nice humble people. Jeff Becerra is a lawyer, so maybe he is evil

    As far as their fan base goes, I think you have to seperate the age groups. Most older, thus more mature, fans that was around in the fledging years do not buy into all the evil hype. In the beginning the devil aspect was more of an umbrella term to describe anything as evil. Black Sabbath did that with their last album, the DEVIL YOU KNOW. I hope this does not come across as condescending but what happens when you take the D away from DEVIL? You Get EVIL, as simple as that.

    It all goes back to the responsibility of the fans who buy into all that. It matters not what the song lyrics are, certainly as long as the band members do not take part in them or their fans. The DM I like and identify with is the DM that I grew up in the middle of, while a teenager. At the time I had a lot to be angry or depressed about but was also blessed with the common sense that every choice you make comes with a price, so don't be a loser and you won't be treated like one.

    As far the fans hating God, there is quite a few DM musicians who are of Christian and Catholic demoninations. The fans that are against God cannot be blamed on the music but their immediate refusal to associate themselves with a demonination. If you want to blame anyone, blame the surroundings. I've like DM since 1981 when it did not even have a title, and from the age of 17 to 24 or so I listened to it more than any other. In that entire time I was a Christian who attended the place of worship.

    I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

    The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.
    Which is precisely how I feel about the modern Extreme Metal outfits. Early DM had variety, both in their music and vocal approach, there was a LOT less growling and the guitar were not always detuned. Because it all sounds the same now, it is indeed, as you put it, BORING.
    Last edited by Ashley Dalby; 11-17-2009, 02:39 PM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by devilmaycare View Post
    Same thing. The old guys... The OUTLAWS... Johnny, Willie... Waylon. THOSE dudes were awesome. The new "BON JOVI WITH A BANJO" stuff is a crock.

    I blame Shania Twain & her ilk... In fact I'd like Shania to report to my office for the appropriate punishment!

    LOL! And you're right, Waylon Jennings was the man!

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    Can we do Country and Western next?
    Same thing. The old guys... The OUTLAWS... Johnny, Willie... Waylon. THOSE dudes were awesome. The new "BON JOVI WITH A BANJO" stuff is a crock.

    I blame Shania Twain & her ilk... In fact I'd like Shania to report to my office for the appropriate punishment!

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium was absolutely NOT a death metal (nor even a black metal) album-----and even if it were, it certainly wasn't the first (and mercifully not the last) death metal record, either. CF was an influential band (even on some of the dm/bm/prog-metal acts to follow), but nobody ever 'accused' them of being a death metal band, heh.
    It was sort of a joke. At any rate, Celtic Frost, around the time of To Mega Therion referred to themselves as the "Kings of Death Metal", so while they're certainly not what DM became, they may have coined (or popularized) the term and certainly, as you noted, been a proto-DM band.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Look, I'm perfectly aware of your deep-seated disdain for this "genre" (and btw, it is a long-standing, thoroughly 'legitimate', markedly 'popular' one to boot, lest you didn't know). This isn't the first time you have so brazenly and intemperately slammed death metal in these forums, nor alas, are you the only one, whether on this board or outside, to have resorted to such glib, gross generalisations and laughable untruths about the genre. I find it both unfortunate and singularly unfair. Sith, I can shrug and accept your abhorring the average death metal band for their lyrical themes, their default 'image' in the mainstream music media and the public at large----do you even particularly despise the actual 'music' itself?? ---whatever little of it you've heard and seen, so far? Fair enough, as far as all of that goes. BUT, referring to the underlined portion of your quote above, I'm dismayed to see you resort to such utterly crass, specious stereotyping and frankly, what amounts to a particularly peurile propaganda about the genre, its exponents, and the fans. If this is indeed what you completely seriously believe, and will always insist on saying about death metal and what it's all about, then I reckon it would be pretty pointless to endlessly 'argue' and risk an unnecessary slanging match between the two of us, over our diametrically opposing points of view, on the matter.

    I've read your exchanges with The Butt, prior to this, and I reckon Butt has already pointed out a few things to you that I'd have done myself----not least how so much of the apparently disturbing/'dysfunctional'?? morbid lyrical themes surrounding society, religion and other heavy-going subjects don't remotely reflect the lives or necessarily and entirely the personal attitudes or pursuits of the musicians themselves. Death metal musicians might routinely rail against God, Christianity, ALL religion, blind faith, sing about myriad other gruesome, unspeakable (sometimes seemingly misogynistic) thoughts and actions, but they absolutely DO NOT advocate or glorify all that they intone over a studio or live microphone; ultimately, it's all an artistic device (the growling vocals, the 'sick' lyrics) that is tailored to complement the incendiary intensity and brutality of their 'extreme' metal musicianship. Besides, not all death metal bands sing only 'gory' lyrics to their songs. I'd say a blatantly bleak 'realism', confronting and talking about the utterly ugly, unsavoury truths about life, humanity, history, politics, relationships, religion etc etc has basically defined death metal's lyrical template. So many of them even occasionally let out some of the 'perverted' verses with a biting sense of humour and irony. I readily recognise this sort of music and lyrics and the entire style isn't for everybody-----but self-righteous, ill-informed, wholesale denunciations of the entire death metal genre is a music fan's demagoguery at some of its ridiculous worst. Gosh, it does seem slightly idiotic and rather condescending to even have to explain all of this to anybody not adequately clued-in about the genre, or worse, to an incorrigibly sneering 'non-fan' critic.

    *also, death metal and black metal, for instance, have never been interchangeable 'genre' labels to be carelessly bandied about in even semi-respectable critiques of them both. I have bemoaned some of Black Metal artistes' egregious excesses some of the more notorious ones you have cited here, sith---though I never hold that against the 'music' itself, the skills and talents involved. It's another thing entirely that I like only 'select' black metal bands----preferring death metal a whole lot more. But both genres (and the bands and the fantastic fans) deserve a whole lot more respect----if never your love and appreciation--than you sadly, currently seem willing to hand them.
    I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance. Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

    You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.

    I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

    The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.

    But if you can list a few bands that you believe have risen above that to produce something of value, let me know. I may have strong views, but I'm not close-minded, and I can recognize something of value even if it doesn't suit my tastes.
    Last edited by thesithempire; 11-17-2009, 01:16 PM.

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  • AngryHeart
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    Can we do Country and Western next?

    To tie this thread together, Robert Plant likes both rap music and country.

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