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  • mythology
    replied
    Can we do Country and Western next?

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    I'd wanna simply comment on sithempire's other target of severe scorn: death metal/black metal. (and dmc might actually back your views here, sith )
    Oh, I LOATHE the stuff... One of the few musical forms totally missing from my vast music library (along with - I think - only Baroque)... I find it devoid of pretty much EVERYTHING I love about music...

    BUT

    I won't sit here & say that it's NOT music or that it has NO artistic merit, or claim that it should be removed from the marketplace. To do so would counter EVERYTHING I've said in this thread.

    I simply don't like it.

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Ha, what would Robert Plant have to say on all of this? Since his ancient jibe about Sabbath has gotten us all to this point, on this thread. LOL

    I wouldn't wanna elaborate my own opinions on Rap/Hip-hop, except to say that I find myself agreeing with both thesithempire and devilmaycare ---with sith about finding Rap to be pretty downright atrocious (which I honestly do)----but more strongly with dmc in his convincing rebuttal of sith's more indignant, untenable dismissal of Rap as a 'legitimate' 'music-genre' at all.

    I'd wanna simply comment on sithempire's other target of severe scorn: death metal/black metal. (and dmc might actually back your views here, sith )

    Originally posted by thesithempire
    But don't go by me. I think death metal (and black metal) should've ended with Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium. I think the genre is just as ridiculous, repugnant and formulaic as gangsta rap, representing little more than the expressed tantrums of 20-somethings trying to make themselves look tough and scary. How they actually look is emotionally dysfunctional and psychologically damaged.
    Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium was absolutely NOT a death metal (nor even a black metal) album-----and even if it were, it certainly wasn't the first (and mercifully not the last) death metal record, either. CF was an influential band (even on some of the dm/bm/prog-metal acts to follow), but nobody ever 'accused' them of being a death metal band, heh. None of your wishful thinking or praying could have prevented the sheer momentum building behind the death metal movement and its subsequent explosion in the metal underground. I'm grateful for that piece of metal music history.

    Look, I'm perfectly aware of your deep-seated disdain for this "genre" (and btw, it is a long-standing, thoroughly 'legitimate', markedly 'popular' one to boot, lest you didn't know). This isn't the first time you have so brazenly and intemperately slammed death metal in these forums, nor alas, are you the only one, whether on this board or outside, to have resorted to such glib, gross generalisations and laughable untruths about the genre. I find it both unfortunate and singularly unfair. Sith, I can shrug and accept your abhorring the average death metal band for their lyrical themes, their default 'image' in the mainstream music media and the public at large----do you even particularly despise the actual 'music' itself?? ---whatever little of it you've heard and seen, so far? Fair enough, as far as all of that goes. BUT, referring to the underlined portion of your quote above, I'm dismayed to see you resort to such utterly crass, specious stereotyping and frankly, what amounts to a particularly peurile propaganda about the genre, its exponents, and the fans. If this is indeed what you completely seriously believe, and will always insist on saying about death metal and what it's all about, then I reckon it would be pretty pointless to endlessly 'argue' and risk an unnecessary slanging match between the two of us, over our diametrically opposing points of view, on the matter.

    I've read your exchanges with The Butt, prior to this, and I reckon Butt has already pointed out a few things to you that I'd have done myself----not least how so much of the apparently disturbing/'dysfunctional'?? morbid lyrical themes surrounding society, religion and other heavy-going subjects don't remotely reflect the lives or necessarily and entirely the personal attitudes or pursuits of the musicians themselves. Death metal musicians might routinely rail against God, Christianity, ALL religion, blind faith, sing about myriad other gruesome, unspeakable (sometimes seemingly misogynistic) thoughts and actions, but they absolutely DO NOT advocate or glorify all that they intone over a studio or live microphone; ultimately, it's all an artistic device (the growling vocals, the 'sick' lyrics) that is tailored to complement the incendiary intensity and brutality of their 'extreme' metal musicianship. Besides, not all death metal bands sing only 'gory' lyrics to their songs. I'd say a blatantly bleak 'realism', confronting and talking about the utterly ugly, unsavoury truths about life, humanity, history, politics, relationships, religion etc etc has basically defined death metal's lyrical template. So many of them even occasionally let out some of the 'perverted' verses with a biting sense of humour and irony. I readily recognise this sort of music and lyrics and the entire style isn't for everybody-----but self-righteous, ill-informed, wholesale denunciations of the entire death metal genre is a music fan's demagoguery at some of its ridiculous worst. Gosh, it does seem slightly idiotic and rather condescending to even have to explain all of this to anybody not adequately clued-in about the genre, or worse, to an incorrigibly sneering 'non-fan' critic.

    *also, death metal and black metal, for instance, have never been interchangeable 'genre' labels to be carelessly bandied about in even semi-respectable critiques of them both. I have bemoaned some of Black Metal artistes' egregious excesses some of the more notorious ones you have cited here, sith---though I never hold that against the 'music' itself, the skills and talents involved. It's another thing entirely that I like only 'select' black metal bands----preferring death metal a whole lot more. But both genres (and the bands and the fantastic fans) deserve a whole lot more respect----if never your love and appreciation--than you sadly, currently seem willing to hand them.
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-17-2009, 07:42 AM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    In any case though, what I said before still stands. Whatever crimes/injustices the artists may have committed has no bearing whatsoever on their musical quality; that's their business, not mine. So I have no problem buying CDs by an artist who has say, sacrificed a goat or burned down a church. They've put work into making music/art to be listened to... it deserves to be explored.
    It deserves to be ignored, and they deserve to be in jail, which some of them are. I won't give them a dime, even if I thought their vile noise had worth.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    Surely you would not say that Richard Wagner's music is illegitimate, despite him being a known anti-semite, and despite writing books dedicated to nazi propoganda?
    If that bastard was alive, I wouldn't give him a single dime either, even though I think his music is brilliant. And I'd put his ass in jail as well.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    Hate is indeed a valid (albeit primal) emotion. It may not be an emotion that humanity is comfortable with, what with the hippie "peace and love", politically-correct BS that's shoved down people's throats, but it's valid nonetheless. I can safely say that I hate some of my fellow humans. It is an emotion that I do not feel is negative, and feel no need to repress or cover up. It gives me some degree of strength. If it weren't an emotion we were meant to feel, we would not have been programmed to feel hate in the first place.
    I understand hate more than you know. It is nothing but corruption from within, which you'll find out if you continue to stoke its flames. Don't be misled into thinking it's strength. It's enslavement, and giving in to it, like cruelty, is a weakness.

    We're not programmed with hate. It's a consequence of our imperfection. To be truly strong is to transcend our darker emotions. Just as thought gives birth to emotion, all emotion fuels action, which is why hate is so dangerous. Or do you think it's ok to do violence to other people because you happen to not like them? Or because they do things you disagree with?

    Besides all that, if you don't like the ideals of 'peace and love', how is it you listen to Black Sabbath, when that's exactly what so many of their songs espouse?!

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    And in the case of black metal (which is typically permeated with hate/anti-religious/satanic lyrics)... everybody has their beliefs. To say that a different set of beliefs is "immature" merely because you disagree or they make you uncomfortable... I'd expect that from a Christian granny-type of character. Even if the black metal musicians do sometimes carry out heinous crimes, that doesn't affect the quality of the music, which along with the cold, misanthropic atmosphere, is perfectly legitimate, art-wise.
    You think it's mature to advocate rape, murder, molestation, cannibalism and genocide? Does that sound like something a mature person thinks or talks about on a regular basis? As you noted, this isn't tongue-in-cheek. It's a manifestation of psychopathy and corrosive rage. You don't need studies to see common sense. Immersing oneself in evil thoughts and fantasies will produce nothing good. No, it won't make everyone spree killers. But I know for myself and what I've seen over the years that it is psychologically damaging. Believe what you want. You can invest in defending indefensible filth all you want, but if it was your sister, mother, wife or daughter who became a victim of some asshole who got all charged up after months of listening to Cannibal Corpse, you'd learn the hard way that what I'm saying is true.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    You could easily make this claim about a song like fucking Highway to Hell or Suicide Solution. And we all know how butthurt the rock/metal fans got in the 80s when their favorite songs got persecuted against in a biased, ignorant manner. Same applies here.
    It doesn't. There is nothing in "Highway to Hell" or "Suicide Solution" to remotely compare to the lyrics in countless black and/or death metal bands. The acts of the extremist "Christian" reich who persecuted Ozzy and AC/DC have no bearing on this subject.

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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Then you may have been living in a cave.

    Heard of the Norwegian Black Metal bands?

    Think Murder, cannibalism and arson for starters. They're not alone. They just made the headlines. There are numerous young people involved in "satanic" cults of their own making for which black/death metal is their soundtrack. The victims are often innocent animals, but I know of at least one local case where it was a young girl who was brutally raped and murdered.
    We were discussing Death Metal and not Black Metal. The incidents involving the BM bands are quite atrocious. A person can watch bloody horror films, listen to DM music, read disturbing bloody novels but these forms of entertainment does not make them disturbed subsequent serial killers.

    Fact is, people are unimginative and quick to jump to conclusions. If they are not required to use their mind then they wont. Think of how many times you have seen someone ask another person a question and then give them an answer they can use and they jump on it. So they are disgusted by the vile acts of people and they look for something, anything, that can be an explanation, no matter how insipid, and run with it.

    With all Extreme Metal, the founders set an example that is followed forever. Whereas the mainstream enjoys romantic comdies and sappy love or heartbreak songs, Death Metal is about the real world for which you live in.

    Some deal with their harsh reality by detaching themselves from it with "light" material and that is fine, it is entirely their right. Then there are others who deal with their harsh reality by embracing the "heavy" material and that too is fine, entirely their right. But as was written before, if you do not wish to be judged, do not do anything that forces the judge's hand.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Hate is not a valid emotion, it's a destructive cancer, both to the individual and to those around him. And it's not been "explored" in death/black metal, it's been exploited to channel rage in the musicians and their listeners, promoting the vilest acts towards fellow humans.
    I see why you see it this way and I would agree. Hate is one of the hardest emotions to put down, especially if it has been your main emotion for a long time.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    As Ashley noted, listeners obviously have free-will to make choices, but death/black metal is marketed to young, immature audiences, who can relate to those feelings and lyrics, giving them tacit permission to fantasize about indulging in acts of violence towards others.

    Those lyrics do serious psychological damage, and tip those already on the edge towards evil acts.
    Then it should be the parent's, guardians and teacher's obligation to make the younger person understand the importance of right and wrong. However, at the conclusion of it all, if you commit a crime, no matter the severity. It is not your parents(Rather great or abusive) or society or drugs or music or movies or books or schools or whatever excuse one wishes to throw up. If you decide to do something wrong then take one on the chin, man up to the responsibility and move on.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You make some good points. I'm not convinced, however, that just because you're in the music industry, that means you're by definition a musician, or that if you're trying to make a living by catering to certain audiences that that makes you anything more than an entertaining salesperson. Anybody can call themselves anything. That doesn't make it so. Music has nothing to do with commerce in the first place. That aspect has been added on to the picture, which is fine because it allows musicians to do what they do best, make music full-time without having to worry about supporting themselves. But as you yourself have noted, the modern day reality has seen music swallowed up by corporate giants, who are solely concerned with commerce. "Music" that comes out of those avenues is little more than product, prepackaged from a mold to be marketed to target audiences who've been preconditioned by the marketing tools of radio and video, or so-called "underground" channels, to like it. Call me an elitist, but I hold music to far higher standards.
    Call it elitist or anything else, but wanting only higher standards should be everyone's approach, which is why I find the past decade or so of any MAINSTREAM media to be insultive.

    Just like before, albeit much less, in order to be a commercial product you must abandon any form of creativity and imagination. This is because the mass buying public are as blind as bats who, due to their own lack of imagination, only believe what is put before them as being 'good'.

    As with ALL forms of entertainment a person attaches some kind of emotion of theirs to the art before them. So when you limit yourself to what is popular, hence one-dimensional and without any sense of pride, you are making your emotional state as superficial and dumb as what you attach them too. Since people ridicuously follow their heart, wouldn't it be smart to make your emotional state solid and with as little frailty as possible?

    As written before, Hip-Hop artists had a hard road as all music does. A little birdie did not come down and inform them where to go, whose butt to kiss or what to do. They had to struggle and invest many years of sacrifice, failure, blood sweat and tears. They earned the respect because they brought a genuine respect, pride and humility to what they were doing, which is only achieved by what you accomplish when the odds are against you. Rappers these days exploit that hard work and do the same thing ALL kinds of music do:

    "HEY, SCREW ORIGINALITY, LET'S JUST DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES AND MAKE MONEY"

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    That said, I think you did a good job distinguishing the differences between older forms of rap and what's come to be in the last decade or so. None of it's for me. But I can respect the difference, and understand the complaints that old-school rappers have with what's come about.
    I am glad you realized my post was not meant as argument, especially since you were not writing directly to me at all.

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Then you may have been living in a cave.

    Heard of the Norwegian Black Metal bands?

    Think Murder, cannibalism and arson for starters. They're not alone. They just made the headlines. There are numerous young people involved in "satanic" cults of their own making for which black/death metal is their soundtrack. The victims are often innocent animals, but I know of at least one local case where it was a young girl who was brutally raped and murdered.
    I have indeed heard of the Norwegian Black metal bands... a lot of them are my favorite bands.

    I was referring to death metal though which is what I thought you were talking about. Death and black metal are not the same thing.

    In any case though, what I said before still stands. Whatever crimes/injustices the artists may have committed has no bearing whatsoever on their musical quality; that's their business, not mine. So I have no problem buying CDs by an artist who has say, sacrificed a goat or burned down a church. They've put work into making music/art to be listened to... it deserves to be explored.

    Surely you would not say that Richard Wagner's music is illegitimate, despite him being a known anti-semite, and despite writing books dedicated to nazi propoganda?

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Hate is not a valid emotion, it's a destructive cancer, both to the individual and to those around him. And it's not been "explored" in death/black metal, it's been exploited to channel rage in the musicians and their listeners, promoting the vilest acts towards fellow humans.
    Hate is indeed a valid (albeit primal) emotion. It may not be an emotion that humanity is comfortable with, what with the hippie "peace and love", politically-correct BS that's shoved down people's throats, but it's valid nonetheless.

    I can safely say that I hate some of my fellow humans. It is an emotion that I do not feel is negative, and feel no need to repress or cover up. It gives me some degree of strength. If it weren't an emotion we were meant to feel, we would not have been programmed to feel hate in the first place.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    As Ashley noted, listeners obviously have free-will to make choices, but death/black metal is marketed to young, immature audiences, who can relate to those feelings and lyrics, giving them tacit permission to fantasize about indulging in acts of violence towards others.
    Studies please. Death and black metal are not marketed to any specific audience at all. In death metal (typically situated with blood/gore lyrics), it's done in generally a tongue-in-cheek manner. No death metal artist has or would partake in any of the actions they sing about.

    And in the case of black metal (which is typically permeated with hate/anti-religious/satanic lyrics)... everybody has their beliefs. To say that a different set of beliefs is "immature" merely because you disagree or they make you uncomfortable... I'd expect that from a Christian granny-type of character. Even if the black metal musicians do sometimes carry out heinous crimes, that doesn't affect the quality of the music, which along with the cold, misanthropic atmosphere, is perfectly legitimate, art-wise.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Those lyrics do serious psychological damage, and tip those already on the edge towards evil acts.
    Again, studies please. Until then, no.

    You could easily make this claim about a song like fucking Highway to Hell or Suicide Solution. And we all know how butthurt the rock/metal fans got in the 80s when their favorite songs got persecuted against in a biased, ignorant manner. Same applies here.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    Hate is a valid emotion, I see no reason why it shouldn't be explored in an artistic manner, as with death (or black) metal. The fact that you don't like the message, doesn't mean that it should be eliminated. Perhaps we should censor every emotion we find uncomfortable.

    And as for violence, calling out death metal musicians for it is just ignorant... do you see death metal musicians actually going through with what they sing about? Have you ever heard a story in the news of a death metal musician defiling a dead corpse or whatnot? I haven't.
    Then you may have been living in a cave.

    Heard of the Norwegian Black Metal bands?

    Think Murder, cannibalism and arson for starters. They're not alone. They just made the headlines. There are numerous young people involved in "satanic" cults of their own making for which black/death metal is their soundtrack. The victims are often innocent animals, but I know of at least one local case where it was a young girl who was brutally raped and murdered.

    Hate is not a valid emotion, it's a destructive cancer, both to the individual and to those around him. And it's not been "explored" in death/black metal, it's been exploited to channel rage in the musicians and their listeners, promoting the vilest acts towards fellow humans.

    As Ashley noted, listeners obviously have free-will to make choices, but death/black metal is marketed to young, immature audiences, who can relate to those feelings and lyrics, giving them tacit permission to fantasize about indulging in acts of violence towards others.

    Those lyrics do serious psychological damage, and tip those already on the edge towards evil acts.

    ---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I think the original post about Rap was the differences between Gangsta Rap and Hip-Hop. As others have pointed out there are those who are creators and those that are followers. The early rappers had no basis for which to measure their skill against, they simply went out and tried to find an audience. This is the reason it was more varied and could be at least tolerated by an audience that was not sex-driven teenagers whose imagination failed to extend beyond which outfit to buy from the Rave or Hot Topic in their local mall.

    Now that Rap has distinquished what sells in its field and what does not, the genre is watered down by artists with little to no skill, hoping to make a few bucks before their fifteen minutes of fame is extinquished...

    Bottom line is, they are ALL professionals that are in the music business for the same reason: To make a living, in order to support themselves and their families, by finding an audience that bothers to spend their time and hard earned money and entertain them.

    Because of that known FACT, it makes all forms of music have not only worth but the right to call themselves music. If you do not like it, the answer is simple: DON'T LISTEN TO IT.
    You make some good points. I'm not convinced, however, that just because you're in the music industry, that means you're by definition a musician, or that if you're trying to make a living by catering to certain audiences that that makes you anything more than an entertaining salesperson. Anybody can call themselves anything. That doesn't make it so. Music has nothing to do with commerce in the first place. That aspect has been added on to the picture, which is fine because it allows musicians to do what they do best, make music full-time without having to worry about supporting themselves. But as you yourself have noted, the modern day reality has seen music swallowed up by corporate giants, who are solely concerned with commerce. "Music" that comes out of those avenues is little more than product, prepackaged from a mold to be marketed to target audiences who've been preconditioned by the marketing tools of radio and video, or so-called "underground" channels, to like it. Call me an elitist, but I hold music to far higher standards.

    That said, I think you did a good job distinguishing the differences between older forms of rap and what's come to be in the last decade or so. None of it's for me. But I can respect the difference, and understand the complaints that old-school rappers have with what's come about.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    And as to the more egregious examples of the genre, which, like death metal, promote hate and violence, I think the sooner all of that's eliminated the better. But with society the way it's gone and going, I don't see expressions of rage and vitriol going anywhere until Sabbath's prophetic "Electric Funeral" comes to pass.
    Hate is a valid emotion, I see no reason why it shouldn't be explored in an artistic manner, as with death (or black) metal. The fact that you don't like the message, doesn't mean that it should be eliminated. Perhaps we should censor every emotion we find uncomfortable.

    And as for violence, calling out death metal musicians for it is just ignorant... do you see death metal musicians actually going through with what they sing about? Have you ever heard a story in the news of a death metal musician defiling a dead corpse or whatnot? I haven't.

    And even if that was the case, it has no bearing on musical quality anyways.

    As for rap... I like the early stuff. And I don't mind some artists like Eminem and The Lonely Island either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Rap's sole claim to "skill" is the rapper's ability to rhyme over a beat. This takes no account of quality of voice, inherent vocal ability, training or anything other than finding sentences which have corresponding sounds at the end of each line. As "gifted" as that may be, I know children who can do that. But when they do it, it's called doggerel.

    Doggerel is defined as: "a low, or trivial, form of verse, loosely constructed and often irregular, but effective because of its simple mnemonic rhyme and loping metre."

    So much for the supposed skill of the rapper.
    I think the original post about Rap was the differences between Gangsta Rap and Hip-Hop. As others have pointed out there are those who are creators and those that are followers. The early rappers had no basis for which to measure their skill against, they simply went out and tried to find an audience. This is the reason it was more varied and could be at least tolerated by an audience that was not sex-driven teenagers whose imagination failed to extend beyond which outfit to buy from the Rave or Hot Topic in their local mall.

    Now that Rap has distinquished what sells in its field and what does not, the genre is watered down by artists with little to no skill, hoping to make a few bucks before their fifteen minutes of fame is extinquished.

    The same is true in the other genre you mention, Death Metal. The original Death Metal had no idea what would sell because it was a brand new idea. The bands had to bust their ass and find what people would spend their hard earned money on and what they would not. Originally there was little to no growling vocals and there was a clarity in the sonic expression. DM's original identity was not so much the music itself but the freedom to discuss subjects deemed to "EXTREME" for the mainstream public, hence why it is sometimes dubbed EXTREME METAL.

    Nonetheless, just like in ALL genre's of music. There are the Trend Setters(Or Leaders) such as: Black Sabbath(Metal), Pink Floyd(Psychedelia), Judas Priest(Heavy Metal), Bee-Gees(Disco), Elvis Presley(Rock And Roll), Misfits(Punk), Vernon Dalhart(Classic Country), Garth Brooks(Modern Country), Hip-Hop(Run D.M.C.), Gangsta Rap(Tupac Shakur), Swing Jazz(Miles Davis), just to name a few... Then you have the Trend Followers, which there are always more to name then the leaders...

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Rap's sole claim to musicality is rhythm, which is found in the beat itself, but it's a beat that usually doesn't originate from the rapper. It comes from pregenerated samples or is "borrowed" from another artist.

    There goes the supposed creative imagination.
    While I agree that Gangsta Rap has very little coherent rhythm in it, old school Hip Hop was a fun and energized dance fused music, heavily influenced by Country's idea of the heavy bass line, that was easy and fun to dance to. I think you are generalizing two genre's that even the industry realizes needs to be seperated. The RAP from 1985 - 1995 is light years away from the rap of 1996 - Present.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Ah, but then there's the words, such gems of modern poetry! Right? No? Oh... it's about how women are whores, and the rappers are tough pimps with bling who got away with their crimes. That, and how everybody else is a piece of shit.

    Ok. I know 5% of rappers actually rhyme about worthwhile subjects, and I applaud that. But c'mon! The genre as a whole is a wasteland of derivativeness and vulgarity. Even rappers complain about the genre they work in.
    Once again, it comes down from differenciating between Hip-Hop or Rap and Gangsta Rap. Sure, these days it is rather sickening. Not because the subject is what it is but because of the lack of variety. Rap is one genre that has been stuck on auto-pilot for over a decade, with the lone exception possibly being the hysterical Ludacris.

    Your obviously entitled to what you believe, but I fail to see complaining about the subject matter of a song. Just because a song is about depraved acts does not mean they depreciate in value. They may be disgusting and you may be above such standards, but no one is accusing you or forcing you to having lived in such a way.

    I am not suggesting that you are saying this but others do and I fail to also see how violent music is the cause for violence in society. What is that little thing that all human beings have that you can never rid yourself of? Oh yeah, FREE-WILL.

    It doesn't matter if you were listening to a song that said at some point, "Hey, go shoot yourself" or "Hey, go shoot someone else" or "Hey, go rape that person" or "Hey, go hijack that airplane and fly it into a building." It was entirely your decision to go do it and the blame should fall directly on your shoulders if you do, face the music and take it, or better yet, DON'T BE THE LOSER THAT COMMITS THE CRIME!

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    At best, rap is creative rhyming. At worst, it's shit doggerel with no qualifying, redeeming factors, no musicality, no originality, and popular because of its ubiquity, because of its supposedly amusing use of profanity against whatever target is hot that month, because of its status as the cultural norm in certain areas, and because most of its listeners have unfortunately been given zero education in genuine forms of music, ancient or modern, western or otherwise.
    It goes back again to the pigeon-hole of Rap across the board, although I agree this is precisely the mindset of individuals who listen to Gangsta Rap.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    What percentage of hip hop features real live musicians in the studio? Is it about the same percentage of death metal bands that don't spew messages of hate and violence?
    Since you mention Hip-Hop and NOT Rap I will say you are QUITE mistaken. As mentioned above, Hip-Hop's origins date back to the late 70's but mostly early to mid 80's through the 90's. This means that during their fledging years, there was no such thing as sampling.

    Whenever they did "borrow" from a band it was with the band present. What band, in their right mind, wouldn't enjoy the chance at broadening their horizons and introducing a whole new generation of fans with a new kind of music?

    I am sure Aerosmith are NOT complaining about the popularity they continue to receive by allowing Run DMC to jam with them. Why they would even think of it goes back to my earlier statements. Because Hip-Hop was a music done by individuals that had to pay dues and actually work hard to get where they have gotten, they were humble and more intelligent. They were professionals and a person would be a fool to think that rock and rap artists, or collectively as bands, did not jam together in the studio. Or even invite each other over for dinner.

    Bottom line is, they are ALL professionals that are in the music business for the same reason: To make a living, in order to support themselves and their families, by finding an audience that bothers to spend their time and hard earned money and entertain them.

    Because of that known FACT, it makes all forms of music have not only worth but the right to call themselves music. If you do not like it, the answer is simple: DON'T LISTEN TO IT.

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  • Wicked Cricket
    replied
    There's artists and theirs entertainers, and in many cases they're a combination of both, an artist being true to him/herself and also to their fans. Too much of either, and you have a starving artist or a entertaining prostitue. One thing I've always thought was true surely in the idealogical 60's and to some extent the 70's music was each band tried to have their own message and "sound". You wanted showmanship, pirotechniques and sex appeal, it was Zeppelin, you wanted heavy dark mysterious atmosphere, it was Sabbath, mind altering psychadelic imagary, there was Pink Floyd, and on and on... Bands that found a succesfully "commercial" sound usually only lasted until they were "in" before they were "out". Look at Zeppelin, they came on the scene as a hard rock blues juggernaut, then make a 180 with an acousticlly dominated 3rd album. Not trying to do Whole Lotta Love II. Sabbath kept changing just enough to keep us and them interested. I don't see that so much in today's music, get a formula and milk it to death is more the norm.
    I'm looking forward to thenext H&H album being a 180 turn in the road, that's what I want to hear, "to go where no man has gone before..!"

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by devilmaycare View Post
    Mate. This is getting dull. You don't like it. You've made your point. Factually you're way off in your definitions & descriptions of rapping & Hip Hop and of "most" of the subject matter, but you obviously won't or can't see that either.

    We can argue back and forth on any artistic merits that I see & you don't. Neither of us will convince the other and frankly I have a life & I'm off to live it.
    Fair enough. I was thinking along the same lines as well.

    Bottom-line, if you've found some measure of joy in it, perhaps in more creative pockets within the genre that I'm unaware of, then more power to you. I'm not looking to take it off store shelves, or out of your home, or to deny anyone anything that benefits them. And despite my strong feelings, I don't judge anyone who listens to it (unless they're acting on the more extreme lyrical examples).

    And as to the more egregious examples of the genre, which, like death metal, promote hate and violence, I think the sooner all of that's eliminated the better. But with society the way it's gone and going, I don't see expressions of rage and vitriol going anywhere until Sabbath's prophetic "Electric Funeral" comes to pass.

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Mate. This is getting dull. You don't like it. You've made your point. Factually you're way off in your definitions & descriptions of rapping & Hip Hop and of "most" of the subject matter, but you obviously won't or can't see that either.

    We can argue back and forth on any artistic merits that I see & you don't. Neither of us will convince the other and frankly I have a life & I'm off to live it.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Some definitions:

    Art:

    The conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects.

    Music:

    An art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

    Rap's sole claim to "skill" is the rapper's ability to rhyme over a beat. This takes no account of quality of voice, inherent vocal ability, training or anything other than finding sentences which have corresponding sounds at the end of each line. As "gifted" as that may be, I know children who can do that. But when they do it, it's called doggerel.

    Doggerel is defined as: "a low, or trivial, form of verse, loosely constructed and often irregular, but effective because of its simple mnemonic rhyme and loping metre."

    So much for the supposed skill of the rapper.

    Rap's sole claim to musicality is rhythm, which is found in the beat itself, but it's a beat that usually doesn't originate from the rapper. It comes from pregenerated samples or is "borrowed" from another artist.

    There goes the supposed creative imagination.

    Ah, but then there's the words, such gems of modern poetry! Right? No? Oh... it's about how women are whores, and the rappers are tough pimps with bling who got away with their crimes. That, and how everybody else is a piece of shit.

    Ok. I know 5% of rappers actually rhyme about worthwhile subjects, and I applaud that. But c'mon! The genre as a whole is a wasteland of derivativeness and vulgarity. Even rappers complain about the genre they work in.

    At best, rap is creative rhyming. At worst, it's shit doggerel with no qualifying, redeeming factors, no musicality, no originality, and popular because of its ubiquity, because of its supposedly amusing use of profanity against whatever target is hot that month, because of its status as the cultural norm in certain areas, and because most of its listeners have unfortunately been given zero education in genuine forms of music, ancient or modern, western or otherwise.

    ---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

    Originally posted by devilmaycare View Post
    The only person that mentioned race was you.
    And I'm glad that's the case. But it's usually the first thing I'm charged with when I mention that I can't stand rap in any form. So I mentioned it to forestall the seeming inevitable.

    ---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

    Originally posted by devilmaycare View Post
    As does saying that all hip hop doesn't feature REAL LIVE MUSICIANS.
    What percentage of hip hop features real live musicians in the studio? Is it about the same percentage of death metal bands that don't spew messages of hate and violence?

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  • nunoni
    replied
    I don't know what to call the Fugees - but by any standard, it's simply good music, even the hip hop bits. Public Enemy, what style is it, again I don't know, again it's simply good music, and I know quite a few metal fans that love it (the early stuff at list).

    Words such as "metal" or "hip hop" are just shortcuts, tags, that you can take as an indication of quality (most hip hop IS shite, because it's music made to order in a production line where creativity is not an element), but often don't mean anything.

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    1) I don't find hip hop to have an absense of melody or harmony. Obviously SOME do... you, for instance.

    2) I never made any argument about Rap's popularity.

    3) ART?? Who mentioned ART?? Oh well. In my dictionary ART is defined like this : the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power... So yes Hip Hop, Rap, call it what you will ABSOLUTELY qualifies as ART.

    It's like comparing surrealist painters to the old masters. Now my old dad would say "That's shit, it doesn't look like anything", but he would never dispute the validity of a Miro as a piece of art... He'd just shrug and say he didn't like it.

    4) There is great skill in rhyming over beats... Otherwise you or I could do it right? But to say that THAT is the only thing that modern Hip Hop offers shows a huge lack of knowledge. As does saying that all hip hop doesn't feature REAL LIVE MUSICIANS. And to argue about something you have to know something about it.

    5) Arguments to the contrary of what? You made no point.
    Last edited by devilmaycare; 11-16-2009, 03:51 PM. Reason: typo. plain & simple.

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