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  • #76
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Then you may have been living in a cave.

    Heard of the Norwegian Black Metal bands?

    Think Murder, cannibalism and arson for starters. They're not alone. They just made the headlines. There are numerous young people involved in "satanic" cults of their own making for which black/death metal is their soundtrack. The victims are often innocent animals, but I know of at least one local case where it was a young girl who was brutally raped and murdered.
    We were discussing Death Metal and not Black Metal. The incidents involving the BM bands are quite atrocious. A person can watch bloody horror films, listen to DM music, read disturbing bloody novels but these forms of entertainment does not make them disturbed subsequent serial killers.

    Fact is, people are unimginative and quick to jump to conclusions. If they are not required to use their mind then they wont. Think of how many times you have seen someone ask another person a question and then give them an answer they can use and they jump on it. So they are disgusted by the vile acts of people and they look for something, anything, that can be an explanation, no matter how insipid, and run with it.

    With all Extreme Metal, the founders set an example that is followed forever. Whereas the mainstream enjoys romantic comdies and sappy love or heartbreak songs, Death Metal is about the real world for which you live in.

    Some deal with their harsh reality by detaching themselves from it with "light" material and that is fine, it is entirely their right. Then there are others who deal with their harsh reality by embracing the "heavy" material and that too is fine, entirely their right. But as was written before, if you do not wish to be judged, do not do anything that forces the judge's hand.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Hate is not a valid emotion, it's a destructive cancer, both to the individual and to those around him. And it's not been "explored" in death/black metal, it's been exploited to channel rage in the musicians and their listeners, promoting the vilest acts towards fellow humans.
    I see why you see it this way and I would agree. Hate is one of the hardest emotions to put down, especially if it has been your main emotion for a long time.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    As Ashley noted, listeners obviously have free-will to make choices, but death/black metal is marketed to young, immature audiences, who can relate to those feelings and lyrics, giving them tacit permission to fantasize about indulging in acts of violence towards others.

    Those lyrics do serious psychological damage, and tip those already on the edge towards evil acts.
    Then it should be the parent's, guardians and teacher's obligation to make the younger person understand the importance of right and wrong. However, at the conclusion of it all, if you commit a crime, no matter the severity. It is not your parents(Rather great or abusive) or society or drugs or music or movies or books or schools or whatever excuse one wishes to throw up. If you decide to do something wrong then take one on the chin, man up to the responsibility and move on.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You make some good points. I'm not convinced, however, that just because you're in the music industry, that means you're by definition a musician, or that if you're trying to make a living by catering to certain audiences that that makes you anything more than an entertaining salesperson. Anybody can call themselves anything. That doesn't make it so. Music has nothing to do with commerce in the first place. That aspect has been added on to the picture, which is fine because it allows musicians to do what they do best, make music full-time without having to worry about supporting themselves. But as you yourself have noted, the modern day reality has seen music swallowed up by corporate giants, who are solely concerned with commerce. "Music" that comes out of those avenues is little more than product, prepackaged from a mold to be marketed to target audiences who've been preconditioned by the marketing tools of radio and video, or so-called "underground" channels, to like it. Call me an elitist, but I hold music to far higher standards.
    Call it elitist or anything else, but wanting only higher standards should be everyone's approach, which is why I find the past decade or so of any MAINSTREAM media to be insultive.

    Just like before, albeit much less, in order to be a commercial product you must abandon any form of creativity and imagination. This is because the mass buying public are as blind as bats who, due to their own lack of imagination, only believe what is put before them as being 'good'.

    As with ALL forms of entertainment a person attaches some kind of emotion of theirs to the art before them. So when you limit yourself to what is popular, hence one-dimensional and without any sense of pride, you are making your emotional state as superficial and dumb as what you attach them too. Since people ridicuously follow their heart, wouldn't it be smart to make your emotional state solid and with as little frailty as possible?

    As written before, Hip-Hop artists had a hard road as all music does. A little birdie did not come down and inform them where to go, whose butt to kiss or what to do. They had to struggle and invest many years of sacrifice, failure, blood sweat and tears. They earned the respect because they brought a genuine respect, pride and humility to what they were doing, which is only achieved by what you accomplish when the odds are against you. Rappers these days exploit that hard work and do the same thing ALL kinds of music do:

    "HEY, SCREW ORIGINALITY, LET'S JUST DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES AND MAKE MONEY"

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    That said, I think you did a good job distinguishing the differences between older forms of rap and what's come to be in the last decade or so. None of it's for me. But I can respect the difference, and understand the complaints that old-school rappers have with what's come about.
    I am glad you realized my post was not meant as argument, especially since you were not writing directly to me at all.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      In any case though, what I said before still stands. Whatever crimes/injustices the artists may have committed has no bearing whatsoever on their musical quality; that's their business, not mine. So I have no problem buying CDs by an artist who has say, sacrificed a goat or burned down a church. They've put work into making music/art to be listened to... it deserves to be explored.
      It deserves to be ignored, and they deserve to be in jail, which some of them are. I won't give them a dime, even if I thought their vile noise had worth.

      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      Surely you would not say that Richard Wagner's music is illegitimate, despite him being a known anti-semite, and despite writing books dedicated to nazi propoganda?
      If that bastard was alive, I wouldn't give him a single dime either, even though I think his music is brilliant. And I'd put his ass in jail as well.

      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      Hate is indeed a valid (albeit primal) emotion. It may not be an emotion that humanity is comfortable with, what with the hippie "peace and love", politically-correct BS that's shoved down people's throats, but it's valid nonetheless. I can safely say that I hate some of my fellow humans. It is an emotion that I do not feel is negative, and feel no need to repress or cover up. It gives me some degree of strength. If it weren't an emotion we were meant to feel, we would not have been programmed to feel hate in the first place.
      I understand hate more than you know. It is nothing but corruption from within, which you'll find out if you continue to stoke its flames. Don't be misled into thinking it's strength. It's enslavement, and giving in to it, like cruelty, is a weakness.

      We're not programmed with hate. It's a consequence of our imperfection. To be truly strong is to transcend our darker emotions. Just as thought gives birth to emotion, all emotion fuels action, which is why hate is so dangerous. Or do you think it's ok to do violence to other people because you happen to not like them? Or because they do things you disagree with?

      Besides all that, if you don't like the ideals of 'peace and love', how is it you listen to Black Sabbath, when that's exactly what so many of their songs espouse?!

      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      And in the case of black metal (which is typically permeated with hate/anti-religious/satanic lyrics)... everybody has their beliefs. To say that a different set of beliefs is "immature" merely because you disagree or they make you uncomfortable... I'd expect that from a Christian granny-type of character. Even if the black metal musicians do sometimes carry out heinous crimes, that doesn't affect the quality of the music, which along with the cold, misanthropic atmosphere, is perfectly legitimate, art-wise.
      You think it's mature to advocate rape, murder, molestation, cannibalism and genocide? Does that sound like something a mature person thinks or talks about on a regular basis? As you noted, this isn't tongue-in-cheek. It's a manifestation of psychopathy and corrosive rage. You don't need studies to see common sense. Immersing oneself in evil thoughts and fantasies will produce nothing good. No, it won't make everyone spree killers. But I know for myself and what I've seen over the years that it is psychologically damaging. Believe what you want. You can invest in defending indefensible filth all you want, but if it was your sister, mother, wife or daughter who became a victim of some asshole who got all charged up after months of listening to Cannibal Corpse, you'd learn the hard way that what I'm saying is true.

      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      You could easily make this claim about a song like fucking Highway to Hell or Suicide Solution. And we all know how butthurt the rock/metal fans got in the 80s when their favorite songs got persecuted against in a biased, ignorant manner. Same applies here.
      It doesn't. There is nothing in "Highway to Hell" or "Suicide Solution" to remotely compare to the lyrics in countless black and/or death metal bands. The acts of the extremist "Christian" reich who persecuted Ozzy and AC/DC have no bearing on this subject.

      Comment


      • #78
        Ha, what would Robert Plant have to say on all of this? Since his ancient jibe about Sabbath has gotten us all to this point, on this thread. LOL

        I wouldn't wanna elaborate my own opinions on Rap/Hip-hop, except to say that I find myself agreeing with both thesithempire and devilmaycare ---with sith about finding Rap to be pretty downright atrocious (which I honestly do)----but more strongly with dmc in his convincing rebuttal of sith's more indignant, untenable dismissal of Rap as a 'legitimate' 'music-genre' at all.

        I'd wanna simply comment on sithempire's other target of severe scorn: death metal/black metal. (and dmc might actually back your views here, sith )

        Originally posted by thesithempire
        But don't go by me. I think death metal (and black metal) should've ended with Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium. I think the genre is just as ridiculous, repugnant and formulaic as gangsta rap, representing little more than the expressed tantrums of 20-somethings trying to make themselves look tough and scary. How they actually look is emotionally dysfunctional and psychologically damaged.
        Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium was absolutely NOT a death metal (nor even a black metal) album-----and even if it were, it certainly wasn't the first (and mercifully not the last) death metal record, either. CF was an influential band (even on some of the dm/bm/prog-metal acts to follow), but nobody ever 'accused' them of being a death metal band, heh. None of your wishful thinking or praying could have prevented the sheer momentum building behind the death metal movement and its subsequent explosion in the metal underground. I'm grateful for that piece of metal music history.

        Look, I'm perfectly aware of your deep-seated disdain for this "genre" (and btw, it is a long-standing, thoroughly 'legitimate', markedly 'popular' one to boot, lest you didn't know). This isn't the first time you have so brazenly and intemperately slammed death metal in these forums, nor alas, are you the only one, whether on this board or outside, to have resorted to such glib, gross generalisations and laughable untruths about the genre. I find it both unfortunate and singularly unfair. Sith, I can shrug and accept your abhorring the average death metal band for their lyrical themes, their default 'image' in the mainstream music media and the public at large----do you even particularly despise the actual 'music' itself?? ---whatever little of it you've heard and seen, so far? Fair enough, as far as all of that goes. BUT, referring to the underlined portion of your quote above, I'm dismayed to see you resort to such utterly crass, specious stereotyping and frankly, what amounts to a particularly peurile propaganda about the genre, its exponents, and the fans. If this is indeed what you completely seriously believe, and will always insist on saying about death metal and what it's all about, then I reckon it would be pretty pointless to endlessly 'argue' and risk an unnecessary slanging match between the two of us, over our diametrically opposing points of view, on the matter.

        I've read your exchanges with The Butt, prior to this, and I reckon Butt has already pointed out a few things to you that I'd have done myself----not least how so much of the apparently disturbing/'dysfunctional'?? morbid lyrical themes surrounding society, religion and other heavy-going subjects don't remotely reflect the lives or necessarily and entirely the personal attitudes or pursuits of the musicians themselves. Death metal musicians might routinely rail against God, Christianity, ALL religion, blind faith, sing about myriad other gruesome, unspeakable (sometimes seemingly misogynistic) thoughts and actions, but they absolutely DO NOT advocate or glorify all that they intone over a studio or live microphone; ultimately, it's all an artistic device (the growling vocals, the 'sick' lyrics) that is tailored to complement the incendiary intensity and brutality of their 'extreme' metal musicianship. Besides, not all death metal bands sing only 'gory' lyrics to their songs. I'd say a blatantly bleak 'realism', confronting and talking about the utterly ugly, unsavoury truths about life, humanity, history, politics, relationships, religion etc etc has basically defined death metal's lyrical template. So many of them even occasionally let out some of the 'perverted' verses with a biting sense of humour and irony. I readily recognise this sort of music and lyrics and the entire style isn't for everybody-----but self-righteous, ill-informed, wholesale denunciations of the entire death metal genre is a music fan's demagoguery at some of its ridiculous worst. Gosh, it does seem slightly idiotic and rather condescending to even have to explain all of this to anybody not adequately clued-in about the genre, or worse, to an incorrigibly sneering 'non-fan' critic.

        *also, death metal and black metal, for instance, have never been interchangeable 'genre' labels to be carelessly bandied about in even semi-respectable critiques of them both. I have bemoaned some of Black Metal artistes' egregious excesses some of the more notorious ones you have cited here, sith---though I never hold that against the 'music' itself, the skills and talents involved. It's another thing entirely that I like only 'select' black metal bands----preferring death metal a whole lot more. But both genres (and the bands and the fantastic fans) deserve a whole lot more respect----if never your love and appreciation--than you sadly, currently seem willing to hand them.
        Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-17-2009, 08:42 AM.
        "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
          I'd wanna simply comment on sithempire's other target of severe scorn: death metal/black metal. (and dmc might actually back your views here, sith )
          Oh, I LOATHE the stuff... One of the few musical forms totally missing from my vast music library (along with - I think - only Baroque)... I find it devoid of pretty much EVERYTHING I love about music...

          BUT

          I won't sit here & say that it's NOT music or that it has NO artistic merit, or claim that it should be removed from the marketplace. To do so would counter EVERYTHING I've said in this thread.

          I simply don't like it.

          Comment


          • #80
            Can we do Country and Western next?

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by mythology View Post
              Can we do Country and Western next?

              To tie this thread together, Robert Plant likes both rap music and country.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
                Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium was absolutely NOT a death metal (nor even a black metal) album-----and even if it were, it certainly wasn't the first (and mercifully not the last) death metal record, either. CF was an influential band (even on some of the dm/bm/prog-metal acts to follow), but nobody ever 'accused' them of being a death metal band, heh.
                It was sort of a joke. At any rate, Celtic Frost, around the time of To Mega Therion referred to themselves as the "Kings of Death Metal", so while they're certainly not what DM became, they may have coined (or popularized) the term and certainly, as you noted, been a proto-DM band.

                Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
                Look, I'm perfectly aware of your deep-seated disdain for this "genre" (and btw, it is a long-standing, thoroughly 'legitimate', markedly 'popular' one to boot, lest you didn't know). This isn't the first time you have so brazenly and intemperately slammed death metal in these forums, nor alas, are you the only one, whether on this board or outside, to have resorted to such glib, gross generalisations and laughable untruths about the genre. I find it both unfortunate and singularly unfair. Sith, I can shrug and accept your abhorring the average death metal band for their lyrical themes, their default 'image' in the mainstream music media and the public at large----do you even particularly despise the actual 'music' itself?? ---whatever little of it you've heard and seen, so far? Fair enough, as far as all of that goes. BUT, referring to the underlined portion of your quote above, I'm dismayed to see you resort to such utterly crass, specious stereotyping and frankly, what amounts to a particularly peurile propaganda about the genre, its exponents, and the fans. If this is indeed what you completely seriously believe, and will always insist on saying about death metal and what it's all about, then I reckon it would be pretty pointless to endlessly 'argue' and risk an unnecessary slanging match between the two of us, over our diametrically opposing points of view, on the matter.

                I've read your exchanges with The Butt, prior to this, and I reckon Butt has already pointed out a few things to you that I'd have done myself----not least how so much of the apparently disturbing/'dysfunctional'?? morbid lyrical themes surrounding society, religion and other heavy-going subjects don't remotely reflect the lives or necessarily and entirely the personal attitudes or pursuits of the musicians themselves. Death metal musicians might routinely rail against God, Christianity, ALL religion, blind faith, sing about myriad other gruesome, unspeakable (sometimes seemingly misogynistic) thoughts and actions, but they absolutely DO NOT advocate or glorify all that they intone over a studio or live microphone; ultimately, it's all an artistic device (the growling vocals, the 'sick' lyrics) that is tailored to complement the incendiary intensity and brutality of their 'extreme' metal musicianship. Besides, not all death metal bands sing only 'gory' lyrics to their songs. I'd say a blatantly bleak 'realism', confronting and talking about the utterly ugly, unsavoury truths about life, humanity, history, politics, relationships, religion etc etc has basically defined death metal's lyrical template. So many of them even occasionally let out some of the 'perverted' verses with a biting sense of humour and irony. I readily recognise this sort of music and lyrics and the entire style isn't for everybody-----but self-righteous, ill-informed, wholesale denunciations of the entire death metal genre is a music fan's demagoguery at some of its ridiculous worst. Gosh, it does seem slightly idiotic and rather condescending to even have to explain all of this to anybody not adequately clued-in about the genre, or worse, to an incorrigibly sneering 'non-fan' critic.

                *also, death metal and black metal, for instance, have never been interchangeable 'genre' labels to be carelessly bandied about in even semi-respectable critiques of them both. I have bemoaned some of Black Metal artistes' egregious excesses some of the more notorious ones you have cited here, sith---though I never hold that against the 'music' itself, the skills and talents involved. It's another thing entirely that I like only 'select' black metal bands----preferring death metal a whole lot more. But both genres (and the bands and the fantastic fans) deserve a whole lot more respect----if never your love and appreciation--than you sadly, currently seem willing to hand them.
                I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance. Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

                You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.

                I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

                The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.

                But if you can list a few bands that you believe have risen above that to produce something of value, let me know. I may have strong views, but I'm not close-minded, and I can recognize something of value even if it doesn't suit my tastes.
                Last edited by thesithempire; 11-17-2009, 02:16 PM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by mythology View Post
                  Can we do Country and Western next?
                  Same thing. The old guys... The OUTLAWS... Johnny, Willie... Waylon. THOSE dudes were awesome. The new "BON JOVI WITH A BANJO" stuff is a crock.

                  I blame Shania Twain & her ilk... In fact I'd like Shania to report to my office for the appropriate punishment!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by devilmaycare View Post
                    Same thing. The old guys... The OUTLAWS... Johnny, Willie... Waylon. THOSE dudes were awesome. The new "BON JOVI WITH A BANJO" stuff is a crock.

                    I blame Shania Twain & her ilk... In fact I'd like Shania to report to my office for the appropriate punishment!

                    LOL! And you're right, Waylon Jennings was the man!

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                      I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance.
                      Since you only specify those five as what you gave a chance to, I would say you did NOT give the genre a chance, since you barely listened to it. Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus and Mercyful Fate are ALL Heavy Metal bands that may have done one or two tracks that bordered Death Metal. Napalm Death is the only one that can be considered Death Metal. Slayer may have helped influence the genre but the characteristics of DM can be traced back to the blasting sound of Gil Moore's percussion of the 1970's and Savatage's first four official releases. Did you ever try Dark Avenger, early Savatage, Possessed, Death, Carnage, Dismember, Unleashed, Necrophagia, Dark Tranquillity, At the Gates, In Flames, Autopsy, Hellwitch, Obliveon, Revenant, Viogression, Immolation, Atheist, Cynic, Obituary, Nihilist or Entombed if you will. It may be too late since you already dislike the genre but had you listened to those instead, especially the first five, you may think differently.

                      Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                      Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

                      You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.
                      I think it goes back to the same point made in the rap topic. The originaters did it because they wanted to write about society instead of the fluff mainstream offers us. If you actually knew one of the members in one of the founding DM bands, you would see most of them were actually nice humble people. Jeff Becerra is a lawyer, so maybe he is evil

                      As far as their fan base goes, I think you have to seperate the age groups. Most older, thus more mature, fans that was around in the fledging years do not buy into all the evil hype. In the beginning the devil aspect was more of an umbrella term to describe anything as evil. Black Sabbath did that with their last album, the DEVIL YOU KNOW. I hope this does not come across as condescending but what happens when you take the D away from DEVIL? You Get EVIL, as simple as that.

                      It all goes back to the responsibility of the fans who buy into all that. It matters not what the song lyrics are, certainly as long as the band members do not take part in them or their fans. The DM I like and identify with is the DM that I grew up in the middle of, while a teenager. At the time I had a lot to be angry or depressed about but was also blessed with the common sense that every choice you make comes with a price, so don't be a loser and you won't be treated like one.

                      As far the fans hating God, there is quite a few DM musicians who are of Christian and Catholic demoninations. The fans that are against God cannot be blamed on the music but their immediate refusal to associate themselves with a demonination. If you want to blame anyone, blame the surroundings. I've like DM since 1981 when it did not even have a title, and from the age of 17 to 24 or so I listened to it more than any other. In that entire time I was a Christian who attended the place of worship.

                      I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.

                      Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                      I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

                      The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.
                      Which is precisely how I feel about the modern Extreme Metal outfits. Early DM had variety, both in their music and vocal approach, there was a LOT less growling and the guitar were not always detuned. Because it all sounds the same now, it is indeed, as you put it, BORING.
                      Last edited by Ashley Dalby; 11-17-2009, 03:39 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Ashley, when you say Savatage, do you mean the same band that did Hall of the Mountain King and Power of the Night? Great band, but I always saw them as either a power-metal band or even early progressive metal, sort of in the same category as Helloween.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          It deserves to be ignored, and they deserve to be in jail, which some of them are. I won't give them a dime, even if I thought their vile noise had worth.
                          That is your opinion. Your opinion does not change the fact that the genres do have artistic merit, and that they deserve to exist and be listened to.

                          You are being close-minded and ignorant. Yeah I played that card.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          If that bastard was alive, I wouldn't give him a single dime either, even though I think his music is brilliant. And I'd put his ass in jail as well.
                          Oh, I would have him in jail too. But that doesn't change the fact that musically he was brilliant. One would be an idiot to dismiss the (frankly, brilliant) music of an artist, over something as trivial as an artist's personal life or views... as much as we may disagree with them.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          I understand hate more than you know. It is nothing but corruption from within, which you'll find out if you continue to stoke its flames. Don't be misled into thinking it's strength. It's enslavement, and giving in to it, like cruelty, is a weakness.
                          That is where our opinions diverge. It is an emotion like any other. Emotions are what makes us human. To simply censor whatever emotions we find uncomfortable is to deny what makes us human.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          We're not programmed with hate. It's a consequence of our imperfection. To be truly strong is to transcend our darker emotions. Just as thought gives birth to emotion, all emotion fuels action, which is why hate is so dangerous. Or do you think it's ok to do violence to other people because you happen to not like them? Or because they do things you disagree with?
                          I don't believe in violence. To be truly strong is to feel your emotions, but still have complete control of them. I HATE a lot of my fellow humans... simply because a lot of them deserve the hate. Close-minded assholes, bigots, etc.

                          I would never do a violent act against another human being because I do not believe in violence.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          Besides all that, if you don't like the ideals of 'peace and love', how is it you listen to Black Sabbath, when that's exactly what so many of their songs espouse?!
                          Many of Sabbath's songs are about, as Ashley said, "the real world". A lot of their songs reveal the darker (yet sadly true) side of life, and the people that live in it.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          You think it's mature to advocate rape, murder, molestation, cannibalism and genocide? Does that sound like something a mature person thinks or talks about on a regular basis? As you noted, this isn't tongue-in-cheek. It's a manifestation of psychopathy and corrosive rage.
                          I do not advocate any of these things. But in the case of the death metal bands (with the gore lyrics), it's just lyrics. RLP has probably spoken with countless members of death metal bands... he can back me up here. They are all normal guys in real life. George Fisher himself (the singer of Cannibal Corpse), is a family man with a wife and kids, that plays fucking World of Warcraft for christs sake. So your "argument" (it has no logical or factual basis so I'm hesitant to even call it that... in a debate that would get laughed at) is invalid.

                          In the case of the black metal bands (who deal with hate/anti-Christian/Satanic lyrics), that is their beliefs, which are no more or less valid than your own. I believe in god, but I know many people who believe that religion is a crock of shit and that God does not exist. I am tolerant of that.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          You don't need studies to see common sense.
                          There is no common sense. And yes, you are making a claim here so yes you do need facts to back up arguments. That's generally how debates work, champ.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          Immersing oneself in evil thoughts and fantasies will produce nothing good.
                          "Evil" is a manmade concept, and is what we make of it. Humans are selfish and evil by very nature, to varying degrees.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          No, it won't make everyone spree killers. But I know for myself and what I've seen over the years that it is psychologically damaging. Believe what you want.
                          Explain. How have you seen this, and what is your factual backing? Without any facts, I'm afraid your argument isn't true.

                          Ball's in your court.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          You can invest in defending indefensible filth all you want,
                          That is biased, and is opinion. Not a logical or valid argument in the slightest.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          but if it was your sister, mother, wife or daughter who became a victim of some asshole who got all charged up after months of listening to Cannibal Corpse, you'd learn the hard way that what I'm saying is true.
                          The actions of some random asshole has no bearing on the musical or artistic quality of a band. I feel no need to blindly dismiss a good, artistic band because some random dick was stupid enough to actually kill a person to a Cannibal Corpse song... or because the artist decided to burn a church, etc.

                          That simply means that that specific person already had mental problems to begin with.

                          Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                          It doesn't. There is nothing in "Highway to Hell" or "Suicide Solution" to remotely compare to the lyrics in countless black and/or death metal bands. The acts of the extremist "Christian" reich who persecuted Ozzy and AC/DC have no bearing on this subject.
                          They have all the bearing in the world, since you and those Christian extremists are acting parralel right now. You're (erroneously) tying lyrics, and the actions of the artists or fans to musical quality or legitimacy, and saying the genres don't deserve to exist merely because you find them uncomfortable.

                          ---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

                          Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
                          I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.
                          Black metal is not just static noise, and is damn well full of artistic quality. Being more harsh and abrasive musically does not make a genre "less artistic".

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by The Butt View Post
                            They have all the bearing in the world, since you and those Christian extremists are acting parralel right now. You're (erroneously) tying lyrics, and the actions of the artists or fans to musical quality or legitimacy, and saying the genres don't deserve to exist merely because you find them uncomfortable.[COLOR="silver"].
                            We're acting parallel?! Now you're just being silly.

                            Let's get some things clear. I don't want them to exist because I know they're harmful, but I'm not involved in any iconoclastic movement to burn them or legislate against them. I respect freedom of speech, even if what that band is doing is an gross abuse of that privilege.

                            But you're free to go ahead and believe that because the members of Cannibal Corpse are family men that it means the evil (yes, evil, call it anything you want. I know what my eyes see and what my conscience tells me is right and wrong) filth they're spewing is nothing but harmless kidding around, then that's you're opinion, but in my opinion, it's justification because you like the music (and I hope that's all you like about it). But for the record, I wasn't commenting on their musical ability anyway (though I think the quality of the output leaves a lot to be desired).

                            It will never be played in this house, and I will never respect that band. And at this moment, I'm not sure how much I respect those who defend men who write lyrics that advocate the rape, torture and murder of innocents.

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                            • #89
                              So I noticed you have no logical/factual rebuttal to the rest of my post.

                              Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                              We're acting parallel?! Now you're just being silly.

                              Let's get some things clear. I don't want them to exist because I know they're harmful, but I'm not involved in any iconoclastic movement to burn them or legislate against them. I respect freedom of speech, even if what that band is doing is an gross abuse of that privilege.
                              You may not be involved in any movement or anything, but your intentions and "justifications" are one and the same.

                              This "harm" you're speaking of doesn't exist. Fact. Until you can show me cold hard facts proving otherwise (and not just "lololol one person I know killed a man to Canibul corps" or some bullshit study on Columbine that proves nothing), you're wrong.

                              To put it in a way you could understand; surely you don't think that directors (and fans) of gore/slasher/halloween flicks are mentally deranged and psychopathic, as you seem to have unfairly, baselessly stated? The same logic applies here... death metal is merely the sonic equivalent of a gore or slasher flick.

                              Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                              But you're free to go ahead and believe that because the members of Cannibal Corpse are family men that it means the evil (yes, evil, call it anything you want. I know what my eyes see and what my conscience tells me is right and wrong) filth they're spewing is nothing but harmless kidding around, then that's you're opinion, but in my opinion, it's justification because you like the music (and I hope that's all you like about it).
                              Again, you're using biased, objective words like "evil" (as I said before, evil is a manmade concept and is what one makes of it. Every human by nature is a varying degree of evil) and "filth" which make your "arguments" very hard to take seriously in a logical context.

                              It's justification because artists have whatever rights to express what they wish through their lyrics. The actions they perform in real life is their own business. And while I don't condone these actions, I do condone artistic expression, so I feel it's only right to give these artists unbiased, open-minded listens.

                              Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                              But for the record, I wasn't commenting on their musical ability anyway (though I think the quality of the output leaves a lot to be desired).

                              It will never be played in this house, and I will never respect that band.
                              cool story bro

                              Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                              And at this moment, I'm not sure how much I respect those who defend men who write lyrics that advocate the rape, torture and murder of innocents.
                              Nice ad hominem.

                              First rule of debates: attack the argument, not the arguer.

                              ---------- Post added at 11:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------

                              I declare win.
                              Last edited by The Butt; 11-17-2009, 10:54 PM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by The Butt View Post
                                So I noticed you have no logical/factual rebuttal to the rest of my post.
                                Dude, you don't see it, and you're not going to see it. If I spent all day shooting reams of data at you, you won't accept it because you simply... don't... want... to. Just pull out any freaking song from Cannibal Corpse and tell me that a steady diet of that is healthy? Gimme a break! It's so obvious you'd have to be blind (or young) to not recognize the truth of that statement.

                                Originally posted by The Butt View Post
                                To put it in a way you could understand; surely you don't think that directors (and fans) of gore/slasher/halloween flicks are mentally deranged and psychopathic, as you seem to have unfairly, baselessly stated? The same logic applies here... death metal is merely the sonic equivalent of a gore or slasher flick.
                                I absolutely think the torture porn films desensitize people to violence. There is no question in my mind about that.

                                Originally posted by The Butt View Post
                                It's justification because artists have whatever rights to express what they wish through their lyrics. The actions they perform in real life is their own business. And while I don't condone these actions, I do condone artistic expression, so I feel it's only right to give these artists unbiased, open-minded listens.
                                I'm all for artistic expression, but not audience manipulation. There's more than one way besides shouting "fire!" in a crowded building to do damage to people, and this case it's to their minds and hearts. That's what you're refusing to see. And that's not my problem that you refuse to see it. I've made my choice that these things are wrong and damaging. You're free to think what you want. I'm not stopping you.

                                Originally posted by The Butt View Post
                                First rule of debates: attack the argument, not the arguer. I declare win.
                                You declare any damn thing you feel like. You see, I'm not concerned about winning or losing debates. Nor was I attacking you. I'm simply telling you how I feel, and it's an opportunity for you to reexamine your own motives for continuing to stand beside artists who push an agenda of violence. You say you don't believe in violence, but that's exactly what they're endorsing. And I honestly don't know how I can respect a man who defends so-called "artists" who advocate evil acts. I don't even *get* how you don't see it.
                                Last edited by thesithempire; 11-17-2009, 11:19 PM.

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