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  • #91
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Dude, you don't see it, and you're not going to see it. If I spent all day shooting reams of data at you, you won't accept it because you simply... don't... want... to. Just pull out any freaking song from Cannibal Corpse and tell me that a steady diet of that is healthy? Gimme a break! It's so obvious you'd have to be blind (or young) to not recognize the truth of that statement.
    It's not obvious (or true) at all. The simple facts are that, you have no data that would prove me wrong because it doesn't exist. Whatever "harm" you're seeing here is all in your mind. You've given no backing to your argument other than "look at the lyrics this can't be healthy lol!!!1!one"... no logical backing whatsoever.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I absolutely think the torture porn films desensitize people to violence. There is no question in my mind about that.
    I watch gore/slasher flicks because they're fun/entertaining/exhilarating watches... it's a break from the lighter/fluffy themes of everything else... it's simple and to the point. No pretentious or pseudo-artistic bullshit, just exhilarating, balls-to-the-wall gore.

    Same way with death metal. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I'm all for artistic expression, but not audience manipulation. There's more than one way besides shouting "fire!" in a crowded building to damage minds and hearts. That's what you're refusing to see. And that's not my problem that you refuse to see it. I've made my choice that these things are wrong and damaging. You're free to think what you want. I'm not stopping you.
    And you're free to believe that these things are wrong/damaging. Just don't think that your opinions can't be wrong, and are immune to scrutiny.

    It has not been factually proven that these kind of lyrics are damaging, and me and RLP have actually provided logical evidence that points to the opposite. It's not my fault you refuse to acknowledge simple logic, and continue to embrace propaganda.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You declare any damn thing you feel like. You see, I'm not concerned about winning or losing debates. Nor was I attacking you.
    I fail to see how trying to put me in a negative light for supporting artists that just so happen to write lyrics that you disagree with, is not "attacking" me.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I'm simply telling you how I feel, and it's an opportunity for you to reexamine your own motives for continuing to stand beside artists who push an agenda of violence.
    lolpropoganda... You honestly believe there's some sort of "agenda" here? That death metal musicians are willingly and knowingly putting out music in the hopes that people "take up the torch" and partake in such acts? No. You're being a conspiracist here.

    And no, I do not feel I should reexamine my own motives for anything. I stand beside these artists because they put out highly artistic music... despite their lyrics that go against the norm, that showcase the darker side of what happens in the real world. I applaud them for what they do.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    You say you don't believe in violence, but that's exactly what they're endorsing. And I honestly don't know how I can respect a man who defends so-called "artists" who advocate evil acts. I don't even *get* how you don't see it.
    They're not "endorsing" violence any more than the directors of Saw, Halloween I/II, etc are.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by The Butt View Post
      They're not "endorsing" violence any more than the directors of Saw, Halloween I/II, etc are.
      Then we'll have to agree to disagree. A look at history and sociology will show you that people are a lot more easily manipulated than you seem to think, and almost always through their emotions. Music stirs emotions. Words stir emotions. Emotions lead to actions. Tens of thousands of wars and acts of violence show this to be true. Heck, demagogues have used music and words to stir people towards feelings of nationalism, racial pride and hatred for centuries. And besides that, people can be desensitized. What do you call twenty people standing around watching a women getting raped and doing nothing to help her? You believe that because you're a logical person and that it seemingly doesn't affect you, that it doesn't affect others. But it does. And you may come to see the truth of that in your lifetime. Then, I guess you'll have your proof.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
        Then we'll have to agree to disagree. A look at history and sociology will show you that people are a lot more easily manipulated than you seem to think, and almost always through their emotions. Music stirs emotions. Words stir emotions. Emotions lead to actions.
        Not always.

        Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
        Tens of thousands of wars and acts of violence show this to be true. Heck, demagogues have used music and words to stir people towards feelings of nationalism, racial pride and hatred for centuries. And besides that, people can be desensitized.
        Citations?

        Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
        What do you call twenty people standing around watching a women getting raped and doing nothing to help her? You believe that because you're a logical person and that it seemingly doesn't affect you, that it doesn't affect others. But it does. And you may come to see the truth of that in your lifetime. Then, I guess you'll have your proof.
        Irrelevant to the point at hand, and a fallacy to boot. I can listen to a Cannibal Corpse CD and realize that it is just dark humor, tongue-in-cheek lyrics. Obviously if I were to see something like that happen, it would affect me, and I wouldn't be desensitized to it.

        If you honestly believe that a Cannibal Corpse CD is going to stir people into actually raping a woman with a broken shard of glass or some shit, then I can safely say that you are a conspiracist. Hell, 4chan has a bigger chance of getting someone to do these things, than a simple death metal song.

        Also I'll thank you to step off that high horse what with your believing that your way is the "truth" and that I will "see", blah blah blah. Fact is, I've provided logical evidence to support my arguments. You have not. You've provided conspiracy theories, propaganda, and "look at the lyrics this is bad lol". Tbh, I think I've provided more "truth" here than you have. So until you can provide facts, don't bother replying.

        Comment


        • #94
          You can do research as well. You're making it sound like the existence of psychological desensitization doesn't exist, or is some kooky conspiracy theory. There's a lot of information available.

          Here, a two second look at Wiki brought up some psychological sources validating what I said about the effects of desensitization on people in various settings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desensi...on_(psychology). That's just one source.

          As to my tone, I speak the way I feel. It's honest. And for someone who cares so much about the freedom of speech of DM bands, does it not seem a little wrong that you'd want to censor what I say or how I say it?

          Comment


          • #95
            I am not censoring anything. I am simply saying, that y'know, you have no factual basis, no studies that prove that death metal and death metal lyrics desensitize people to violence. So I don't really see the point in posting baseless arguments without facts.

            There's no need to post the short wiki article... I know what desensitization is, and I am aware that it exists; just not in this specific instance. That's such a terrible argument that I don't even really know where to begin.

            But until you can post a study giving cold hard facts, stating that death metal desensitizes people to violence, you really can't make the claim you're making. You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you, not I. It's not my fault you're failing to deliver.

            Comment


            • #96
              Well, what I meant for you to see in the Wiki article is the study they cite on the desensitizing effects of violence in mass media. The article states:

              "Research on emotional reactions to violent messages has been concerned with the possibility that continued exposure to violence in the mass media will result in desensitization, that is, that exposure to media violence will undermine feelings of concern, empathy, or sympathy that viewers might have toward victims of actual violence."

              Here is the study:

              http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...48b7af4cc732a1

              If you don't have access to the article, read at least the abstract, which briefly sums up some of the findings.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                Well, what I meant for you to see in the Wiki article is the study they cite on the desensitizing effects of violence in mass media. The article states:

                "Research on emotional reactions to violent messages has been concerned with the possibility that continued exposure to violence in the mass media will result in desensitization, that is, that exposure to media violence will undermine feelings of concern, empathy, or sympathy that viewers might have toward victims of actual violence."
                Bolded the key words here. The words in the wiki article haven't actually proven, it just mentions that it shows CONCERN with the POSSIBILITY of desensitization.

                Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                Here is the study:

                http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...48b7af4cc732a1

                If you don't have access to the article, read at least the abstract, which briefly sums up some of the findings.
                I do not have access to the article, I need to register for such a thing. I did read the abstract though, and you still haven't really proven anything.

                Video games and music are two entirely different platforms of media entirely. Surely you're not arguing that having a game paint an image of a violent situation in your mind, allowing you to play it out as if you're the one doing such a deed, and rewarding you for doing such a thing, is similar to hearing some words in a death metal song, BLATANTLY meant to be tongue-in-cheek dark humor?

                You are grasping for straws.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Earlier, you equated violent lyrics from DM and BM with certain horror films. Now you're saying video-games are a whole other thing. Sigh. I think you're just being difficult. The advocates of violent video games have made claims similar to what you've made. At any rate, the results of the study on violent games should at the very least show that what I've been saying is not without merit.

                  Well, I'm going to bed. If I come across other studies, I'll pass them along.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    You both are right in a way, but are we forgetting to look at what is most important?

                    Sith is right about endless violence desensitizing people. Once you've seen violence and you accept it as a way of life, then you are not appalled by it. When you lose respect for human life, then yes, you DO need to be dealt with accordingly. Is it a coicidence that soldiers that have battled in combat have deeply scarred psychological problems?

                    And Butt is right about detractors from the music refusing to admit that just because the music is violent does not make the artists/listener a violent person. If anything it is the equivalent to a punching bag, a harmless way to get rid of aggression.

                    The blame for any action lies on the person, no one else. Those whom disagree need to obtain a copy of the book תָוִית מְיַדַעַת לָרֶדֶת (גֶשֶׁם), the English translation of course. If you cannot accept the honesty there then Sith is also right, that experience is the only way you will learn the error.

                    Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be. Michael Jackson was a very talented artist, who helped open doors to a lot of other people, but don't forget he was also a homosexual pedophile. Since we do not enjoy sitting before a rapist or murderer and shaking their hands, means we should do to anyone. Not forget their actions simply because they've made a song or two that you find enjoyment in. Their actions are still despicable. This is not an opinion of mine, yours, his, hers, theirs, leaders, followers, etc... It is a fact of life, especially as far as the murderers go.

                    THOU SHALL NOT KILL(.)

                    That statement does not say, "Unless your a musician", "Unless your political", "Unless your a certain race", "Unless your rich".

                    People who argue that are forgetting that no matter your race, creed, religion, age, gender, upbringing, beliefs, we are all human. If one human is forbidden to do something, then ALL humans are forbidden from it, nothing makes you special or gives you special priveledges to commit vile acts.

                    Ever heard of Altruism?

                    Now onto something else...

                    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                    Ashley, when you say Savatage, do you mean the same band that did Hall of the Mountain King and Power of the Night? Great band, but I always saw them as either a power-metal band or even early progressive metal, sort of in the same category as Helloween.
                    Yes, the same band, but as I wrote before, their four releases: Sirens, The Dungeons Are Calling, Live In Clearwater, City Beneath The Surface. Both critics and early DM bands cite Savatage as not only a huge influence on their sound and style but that they, Criss Oliva in paticular, laid the groundwork for all Death Metal that followed.

                    Critics say it: Here Is One! - Or This should probably wrap up the confusion.
                    Last edited by Ashley Dalby; 11-18-2009, 12:54 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by thesithempire
                      I never once commented on the skill and talent involved in producing DM or BM music. And as someone who used to listen to extreme metal in the early days (the aforementioned Celtic Frost, Slayer, Exodus, Mercyful Fate, Napalm Death), it's not like I haven't given the genre a chance. Despite the skills required to reproduce it, I find it utterly unlistenable. and extremely derivative. But that's besides the point. The lyrical aspects are my primary objection, and they're everything you noted. You want me to give more respect to the fans, which I certainly have done, and continue to do when they're the kind of fan that has their own minds and doesn't follow the DM bands like a religion, which I've seen too many do (ironic in that they hate God and religion and yet turn their favorite musicians into gods and their words into religions).

                      You say that I'm overgeneralizing, but you've given me no reason to refute my claim that it's a subgenre steeped in negativity, that doesn't just reflect life's dark side, but basks in it, glories in it, and yes, advocates it. This was true even of Slayer in their early days, and it's certainly true of the modern crop, and they can deny it all they want and say it's satirical or just an artistic reflection. That's a bullshit justification in order to continue capitalizing on dysfunction, feeding on rage and darkness, and reflecting it back to their audiences.

                      I'm well aware of the fact that a handful of Death Metal bands are more creative in their lyrical construction, and just as there are rappers that don't vilify women and sing about serious social issues, there are DM bands who are actually artistic in their approach. And I absolutely applaud that. But as far as I can see, they're a tiny minority.

                      The genre as a whole will never earn my respect because their lyrical content will stay steeped in the celebration of darkness, and the music will continue to sound the same, which has long ago ceased being "extreme" and is now just boring! But the fans, as a whole, don't want diversity or progress. In fact, many hate the very idea of it.

                      But if you can list a few bands that you believe have risen above that to produce something of value, let me know. I may have strong views, but I'm not close-minded, and I can recognize something of value even if it doesn't suit my tastes.
                      For somebody that is blatantly so profoundly contemptuous and dismissive of the entire death metal/black metal genres, I reckon that supplying the names of a few more such bands to you sith, would only be feeding your personal troughs of hate and ridicule for these genres/bands that you have already made abundantly clear by now. Or no, you actually asked for 'a few bands' that 'have risen above all that' to 'produce something of value'. C'mon sith, this is a silly stretch. I cannot imagine trying to recommened death metal bands----to a committed non-fan like yourself, no less---that might miraculously pass muster by your stringent standards of what constitutes music '"of value" ...or what else? non-evil, moral, virtuous music, perhaps. This reeks of sanctimonious clap-trap to me, honestly. Btw, you cite a handful of extreme bands---a heavy metal/avant-garde act (CF), two top-notch veteran thrash acts, a black metal legend, and of course, one of my own all-time favourites, the Anglo-American death-grindcore legends i.e Napalm Death. That, though, can scarcely be called "giving the genre a chance". Not by a long shot. It’s skimming the wafer-thin surface of the death metal ocean, at best. You gotta be totally kidding me and the other like-minded fans in the extreme metal community. But, you apparently already cringed at what you heard, so I'll grant you this much; you naturally didn't have much incentive or desire to explore deeper and wider, properly and seriously, and with a genuinely 'open mind'. Also, I've already accepted how you obviously find extreme metal music "utterly unlistenable"---but "extremely derivative" is an exaggerated, and pretty one-sided allegation. Most rock-metal music is inherently, even inevitably, 'derivative', to varying extents. However, as much as latter-day wanna-bes and near-clones have sometimes vied for fans' attention, in the death metal/extreme music 'scene', worldwide, (and this is all too common in other genres, too) I'd argue that the death metal world has not been any more (in fact, actually mostly a lot less) 'derivative' than their rock-metal peers and other artistes on the genre spectrum. I've seen and heard plentiful stylistic innovations of all sorts in death metal, over the past two decades of its prominent existence, than I've seriously seen in the waning charms of stripped-down, commercial construct of contemporary and recent traditional rock/metal----let alone some of the other genres in the mainstream marketplace of mindless mediocrity. And luckily too, in death metal, even some of the genre-specific musical features that have remained constant have been altered and finessed by virtuoso players, old and new alike, to keep me largely content---despite my harsh dissing about many acts I found second-rate or worse. Again, that’s a curse afflicting EVERY genre, that exists. And what exactly is "actually artistic" that you imply will garner some of your respect for death metal bands that are that way? Is a 'Never Say Die'-type'artistry' the only kind worthy of respect and adulation? I'll maintain, with the experience and appreciation of a bona fide fan of the genre, that musical "artistry" is actually an exceptional forte of countless death metal musicians I have heard and admired, to date.

                      You allege that the music had ceased to be ‘extreme’ a long time ago, but has been plain ‘boring’ instead. I can’t argue against somebody about their finding something about some music exceedingly ‘boring’, but man, besides begging the question about just how ‘more extreme’ can the music get anymore, fact is, you sound out of your depth to say that it hasn’t been ‘extreme’ for a long time. Only you would know what all constitutes ‘extremeness’ to you, in the music we’re discussing, but I’d seriously suggest that extreme bands have continually stretched boundaries, pushed the extreme metal envelope further and to places previously unimagined, not always with spectacular results, I’ll admit---but the directions, innovations, technicality, songwriting craft and avenues of extremeness brought on by many modern dm/grindcore and other extreme music bands of the last decade, have been nothing short of impressive and lent much impetus to the genre, going forward.

                      And, it’s not quite true at all how we fans, mostly always resisted “diversity and progress” and/or “hated the very idea of it”. Alright, I concede that if ‘diversity and progress’ meant a brutal-oriented act suddenly being awash in synths, keys, frequent flirting with ‘clean’ vocals, and various other mainstream, watered-down approaches and outright gimmicks to their sound and songwriting, then of course, the fans (and it’s not really about being “purists” per se) can only be expected to feel highly let-down, furious even, at this climbdown. Stubborn, demanding fans clamouring for more of the same and sensitive to specific musical alterations they find alienating, are to be found all over the music map, not merely the niche havens of the death metal underground, you know. Yet, I can speak for myself and the average death metal fan when I say that a majority of us long-standing, lifetime fans, have always been sufficiently tolerant toward ‘diversity’ in this genre----and we actually got tons of it, some great, some sucky, whether we wished for it or not.

                      I had already sensed that the ‘lyrical’ aspect to death metal is your primary, permanent bane here. I cannot stress enough how it’s ridiculous and patently disingenuous of anybody to pretend to take a lot of the lyrics so friggin’ seriously, literally and in an overly moralist, judgemental manner. Offended souls like you have a built-in boon, here sith, i.e death metal lyrics invariably need an album lyric sheet to make sense of; they are otherwise predominantly and intentionally (in the artistic sense) indecipherable (even to experienced ears like mine). LOL But you’re being hilariously wrong-headed in insisting that these musicians are, in any way at all, actually ‘promoting’, glorifying, and ‘advocating’ murder and violence, depravity and general mayhem etc etc… This is asinine agit-prop and this shit just never sticks. I can appreciate so many people being offended by and finding the lyrics a major turn-off, but to compulsively and so clumsily ascribe some of the more (not necessarily always) perverse, gore-laden lyrical content of death metal---not to the context and the sonic attributes of the extreme musicianship itself---but instead to the actual lives, personalities and very motives and agendas of the musicians themselves—is just flat-out falsification of facts. This is the true ‘indefensible’ canard, here.

                      So ok, you say the lyrical angle to death metal precludes the genre ever getting your respect. So be it. But it’s curious how you seem to depict the general, passionate fan-worship accorded to so many of the acclaimed death metal bands and individual musicians, as some alternate religion/deity and idolatry by the fans. Have you ever paused to consider some of the classic rock ‘cults’ of fans and many members of that particular herd that come across as pious, pedantic folks that love to preach about their Everyman heroes, tastes and ideals----and lecture extreme metal fans, for one, about the intricacies of “real music”.?? Since you bring it up, I’d say tons of death metal musicians do rightly inspire admiration, even awe, among their fans, for their phenomenal ‘musical’ talents, AND some of their lyrics betray an acute appreciation for the human condition and other truths about our faith, foibles, lives and actions etc etc. It isn’t really so much as a ‘celebration of darkness’ as you implied, but more a debunking of myths and hypocrisies of all sorts, and the unveiling of reality. It’s also a deeply, instinctive, internalized channeling of anger, frustration, hostility at how wrong things are, through the brutality and intensity of the music. Hopes and aspirations—even philosophical and political realms are often explored, in dm lyrics. All of this is nothing to sneeze at, surely. Prolific amounts of lyrics undoubtedly ‘offend’ and are obviously outside the comfort zones and sensibilities of many people, but that does not make the lyrics especially vile and “evil”, much less the artistes that sing (or growl, roar, scream, snarl etc) them. Butt was right in guessing that I have met, known and spoken with dozens of dm artistes over the past decade and more. I have found a mighty majority of them to be not only perfectly 'normal' men (not merely in that most of them have married, raised families, loved their wives and kids and family, bought homes, travelled, took vacations, worked hard at other jobs, paid taxes, gave to charity yada yada) but came across as uncommonly intelligent individuals, widely-read, well-spoken, with educated opinions on a whole range of issues, were humble, gracious, generous in spirit, always considerate toward their fans, took their jobs as musicians very seriously and just regular guys that other regular guys would feel swell to hang out with and chat and learn about and love they music they create. They aren't the morbid, perverted sickos bent on 'cashing in on' dysfunctional youth and touting some vile agenda to indoctrinate the minds of maladjusted adolescents and adults, as you so shockingly insinuate here, sith. It's utter lunacy to paint the picture this way. It is like Bob Dole and his ilk, the 'moral brigade', all over again. This has NEVER been what death metal or its performers have been about. Mercifully, too many people, certainly the numerous fans, everywhere, have known of this smear campaign for a long time.

                      Sith, the reason I even chose to respond in such length (and I must have rambled like a bore, as usual ) is because I honestly find your arguments—not all of them, to be sure (especially during the tennis match and rallies you had with Butt ) to be increasingly and stridently ill-informed, intolerant, inaccurate and astoundingly one-dimensional in its thrust. You are highly unlikely to ever even grudgingly embrace death metal or its kindred, for reasons, justified or not, are your own heartfelt reasons, nevertheless----- but that is scant justification to so cavalierly, and gratuitously, denigrate death metal the way you have done on this thread, so far. Your scurrilous remarks about Cannibal Corpse (and their fans) is a stand-out travesty, I won’t forget in a hurry.

                      edit: sith, I know I've rambled enough, and it's unnecessary to go on about this, further. But since dm's 'lyrics' has been the hot button issue of contention here, all along, I had to tell you another conventional opinion of arguably an ovewhelming bulk of death metal and extreme music fans, in general...i.e the 'lyrics' are the 'least important' (occasionally even irrelevant to some fans, some of the time),, aspect of a death metal band's music. It's always been foremost about the 'music' itself----the guitar riffage, killer leads and all, the dynamic drums/percussion, and yes, the vocals, as crucial as they are---though even that (and an often inadequately audible bass guitar) play a slightly second fiddle to the primacy of lead guitars and drums. So, if you never looked at the lyric sheet, and without that you wouldn't understand much of the words anyway, you could give the music itself, another go. There might be some hope, yet. Hahaha

                      I'll have to respond, more briefly to Ashley, later. Butt, too, but then a lot of his sentiments are in synch with mine, anyway.
                      Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-18-2009, 06:42 AM.
                      "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                        LOL! And you're right, Waylon Jennings was the man!

                        You are correct Waylon rules, but you're both missing Hank Williams. He was the king. With an honourary mention for Gram Parsons of course.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
                          Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be.
                          Art transcends its creators. I am all for artists that commit despicable acts being locked up in prison... but they've put hard work and effort into putting out art to be enjoyed... its only right that it be explored and given an unbiased listen.

                          To ignore music simply because of the misdeeds of its creators, would be a crime against the art world.

                          Also I don't really have a lot to say to RLP's post, other than that he's right and that I agree entirely.

                          Comment


                          • ^^ buddy, I'm glad and grateful that you actually cared to get through my lengthy reply to sith, at all. Of course, you'd be inclined to agree entirely with what I wrote, though it would be just as cool with me even if you disagreed some, and told me about it.

                            I'm totally on your side about what you said about the needless disrespecting and boycotting the 'music' for the 'sins' of the 'creators' / 'artistes' of said music. I've already explicitly stated my own opinions on this very issue, in another thread discussion, several months ago. But since it's been raised again here, I'll reiterate that NOTHING a musician(s) thinks, does or says (political and religious views included) will ever compel me to abandon and quit 'supporting' their 'music' and buying their album releases, attending shows etc etc IF I happen to genuinely admire and enjoy the actual music they play. And this applies to ALL musicians, not just metallers. And the more notorious incidents of violence and the odd homicidal case concerning Black Metal, well, I've already often stated how I've obviously strongly and publicly disapproved of them---BUT, as always, craven critics with an 'agenda' smell blood and pounce on and pillory the entire genre, wholesale. My criticisms regarding BM have been mainly musical in nature and my feeling that many of them have sacrificed ability and creativity in favour of 'image' and actually, perversely helped reinforce some of the very unfair, ignorant stereotypes about them that sometimes circulate in the sensationalist media, and indeed from the occasional post by some random poster, in these forums. I'd maintain, though, that I still listen to (and always will) love a lot of black metal musicians (with inflammatory views and/or violent actions on their resume) that would otherwise not be welcome guests to the homes of some people here.

                            Originally posted by Ashley Dalby
                            Yes, you SHOULD not support artists that commit despicable acts in their personal life, simply for the fact that they owe you their person life. It does not matter how brilliant or talented the artist may be.
                            Ashley, it's obvious how I would never obey this particular commandment---but what in heaven's name do you mean by "that they owe you their person life"? I'm wildly guessing here, but are you obliquely implying that they deserve to be put to death---for their 'despicable' personal actions? If you are, then we have a very fundamental disagreement here, that maybe we aren't allowed to discuss further, given the forum rules.

                            And, it actually does matter a whole lot (to me) 'how brilliant or talented the artist may be'. As I stressed above, if I dig the band and love the music, my dollars will always go to buying their records.

                            Also, I probably cannot quote everything you have said that I wanna specifically reply to here, but lemme just make some quick responses to a few comments you made earlier. I realise a lot of it actually is stuff we've already debated, in the past. But still,

                            Savatage was ALWAYS basically a 'power metal' band with some heavy, atmospheric undertones to their sound. They could never be seriously called a death metal band of any sort, nor any significant influence on dm bands, either. It just is not the case.

                            You repeat your old perplexing remarks about how the true origins of death metal can be traced back to '81----heck, even thrash hadn't totally found its feet at that particular year---and death metal was several years away from being even properly conceived, let alone created and executed or recognised as such. I don't wanna go into too much detail here, but you seem to repeat some of your older arguments about how DM started out as so much more creative and impressive in the early years, but then swiftly degenerated into a depressing mediocrity and boredome, ever since. I'd unequivocally and completely dispute and reject that point of view---notwithstanding the contributions of Death, Possessed, Celtic Frost, and a handful of others to the conception of this new genre. Death metal really exploded with the advent of the Florida legends Morbid Angel, Malevolent Creation, Obituary, Deicide, (the NY imports to Florida, Cannibal Corpse) and the NYDM pioneers like Suffocation and Immolation. This was all in '88-89 and is conventionally regarded as the authentic emergence of real deal death metal, as we know it.

                            Next, I don't quite agree with your depictions of fans' "age" being such a determinant about their attitudes to the music and their behaviours. I might fall in the 'middle' of the age segments you described---i.e I had initiation into death metal as a high school senior, back in '93 when death metal was actually in some of its historical, creative apex. However, I simply don't think that 'older' 'mature?' death metal fans are the only ones more likely not to buy into the 'satanic' 'evil' 'gory' imagery of some of these bands. I'd argue neither do an overwhelming majority of younger fans, today. Seriously, I don't know any death metal fan (young or older) that seriously pursues satanic, violent, anti-social activities or raves about such things or cites the bands as their inspiration for all of this. Too many of you seem astonishingly ignorant about the typical, average death metal fan, anywhere. Young fans are profoundly passionate about the music, they go to concerts, buy shiploads of records and merch, are perfectly 'mature'-----not a bunch of rage-filled, demented louts indulging in some perversion.
                            They don't have to change a thing to get the approval or the blessings of non-fans.

                            Besides, for all the customary stridently anti-religion stance of a majority of extreme metal acts, personal religious views and preferences have had no huge impact on most fans and the bands they swear by. Even believers in God and Christianity are known to be dm enthusiasts---as are agnostics and atheists.

                            I mention this as more of a defense to classic DM because sadly I have to admit that modern noise, I mean DM, is just like Black Metal, a bastardized much less respectable rip-off of the DM founding. I agree that when they say about "artistic reflection" being a "bullshit justification" since, more than anything else, there is absolutely no artistic quality in STATIC NOISE.
                            Ashley, this reads like an incoherent mess, honestly. But what sense I can make of it seems to suggest that you find 'modern DM' (timeline??) and BM have next to nothing in 'artistic quality' but is only just 'STATIC NOISE' to you. We must inhabit different worlds, entirely. To call a lot of very cool dm and bm, today---as static noise---is totally beyond the pale and beggars belief, really. I'll let this one go.


                            Which is precisely how I feel about the modern Extreme Metal outfits. Early DM had variety, both in their music and vocal approach, there was a LOT less growling and the guitar were not always detuned. Because it all sounds the same now, it is indeed, as you put it, BORING.
                            This somewhat helps explain your outlook. I gotta say, thank god for the adoption of more vocal variations and the perfection of and more plentiful 'growling' in death metal. Detuned guitars is a given--and far from the main thing here---it was always mainly about killer riffs and leads (and the occasional bursts of soloing), which came in torrents from the best players and acts in dm, for the past twenty years.

                            And gosh, it absolutely DOES NOT 'all sound the same now'. Need I even comment on 'BORING' ??
                            Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 02:08 AM.
                            "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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                            • Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
                              edit: sith, I know I've rambled enough, and it's unnecessary to go on about this, further. But since dm's 'lyrics' has been the hot button issue of contention here, all along, I had to tell you another conventional opinion of arguably an ovewhelming bulk of death metal and extreme music fans, in general...i.e the 'lyrics' are the 'least important' (occasionally even irrelevant to some fans, some of the time),, aspect of a death metal band's music. It's always been foremost about the 'music' itself----the guitar riffage, killer leads and all, the dynamic drums/percussion, and yes, the vocals, as crucial as they are---though even that (and an often inadequately audible bass guitar) play a slightly second fiddle to the primacy of lead guitars and drums. So, if you never looked at the lyric sheet, and without that you wouldn't understand much of the words anyway, you could give the music itself, another go. There might be some hope, yet. Hahaha
                              Well, obviously I don't agree with everything you say, but I don't take umbrage at your expressing it. I do think musicians and performers bear responsibility when they write something that's potentially damaging to others. And I have read the lyrics to several DM and BM bands (I know y'all don't lump those two subgenres of extreme metal together -- but let's face it, to the minds of most, the differences are largely academic), and my eyes don't deceive me. The lyrics advocate extremely bad shit, even if the musicians claim they personally don't. That's such a copout. I agree with Ashley that people are responsible for their own actions, but the fact remains that there are a lot of damaged individuals out there, some undiagnosed, some off their meds, some just immature, who feed off that darkness and reflect it, whether that means they get desensitized through extreme music, films and video games to the point that a suffering individual is something to take pictures of on a cell phone, or if it means they rape, attack, or harm another themselves. Or if it means they get so despondent through a constant diet of negative thoughts, that they off themselves. And that's not propaganda. People have done bad stuff with far less contributory factors. And that's exactly what I'd describe it as, not a cause for why someone does something, but a contributing factor, of which there are many. But why add one more?! Music is supposed to be art and entertainment. It shouldn't shy away from the darkness, but it's supposed to point the way to the light. That's what Sabbath did.

                              But as regards the music itself, a few months back I listened to a few songs from Emperor. Now before you all start hollering, I know they're a black metal band. But it's close enough for me to make this point. I can recognize the talent they have to play like that. It's very skilled. It's not my cup of tea, mostly because I can't get into the cookiee monster vocals at all (I can't see how these guys won't get throat cancer in a few years). But at least lyrically, there's some interesting things there (which reminded me a lot of Celtic Frost) that tell stories and weird stuff, to be sure, but at least not the same tired tripe and vicious bullshit that Deicide's been spewing for ten years.

                              You want to tell me that these guys aren't advocating bad things:

                              From the song "Kill the Christian":

                              Kill the christian, kill the christian
                              Kill the christian, kill the christian
                              Kill the christian, kill the christian
                              Kill the christian

                              Armies of darkness unite
                              Destroy their temples and churches with fire
                              Where in his world will you hide
                              Sentenced to death, the anointment of christ

                              In due time your path leads to me
                              Put you out of your misery

                              The death of prediction
                              Kill the christian

                              Kill the christian...dead!

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                              • Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
                                Well, obviously I don't agree with everything you say, but I don't take umbrage at your expressing it. I do think musicians and performers bear responsibility when they write something that's potentially damaging to others. And I have read the lyrics to several DM and BM bands (I know y'all don't lump those two subgenres of extreme metal together -- but let's face it, to the minds of most, the differences are largely academic), and my eyes don't deceive me. The lyrics advocate extremely bad shit, even if the musicians claim they personally don't. That's such a copout. I agree with Ashley that people are responsible for their own actions, but the fact remains that there are a lot of damaged individuals out there, some undiagnosed, some off their meds, some just immature, who feed off that darkness and reflect it, whether that means they get desensitized through extreme music, films and video games to the point that a suffering individual is something to take pictures of on a cell phone, or if it means they rape, attack, or harm another themselves. Or if it means they get so despondent through a constant diet of negative thoughts, that they off themselves. And that's not propaganda. People have done bad stuff with far less contributory factors. And that's exactly what I'd describe it as, not a cause for why someone does something, but a contributing factor, of which there are many. But why add one more?! Music is supposed to be art and entertainment. It shouldn't shy away from the darkness, but it's supposed to point the way to the light. That's what Sabbath did.

                                But as regards the music itself, a few months back I listened to a few songs from Emperor. Now before you all start hollering, I know they're a black metal band. But it's close enough for me to make this point. I can recognize the talent they have to play like that. It's very skilled. It's not my cup of tea, mostly because I can't get into the cookiee monster vocals at all (I can't see how these guys won't get throat cancer in a few years). But at least lyrically, there's some interesting things there (which reminded me a lot of Celtic Frost) that tell stories and weird stuff, to be sure, but at least not the same tired tripe and vicious bullshit that Deicide's been spewing for ten years.
                                Ha, did I seem to "holler" at you at any point, so far, sith? I'm not about to start, either----though I gotta say that Emperor is an example of a rather sucky extreme band to talk to me about. Yea, they are black metal, not death metal, but that is not the reason why I find them lame. Btw, you reveal the typical sneering stance of inveterate non-fans by glibly referring to the vocals as 'cookie-monster' ----that's been a derogatory term of reference used by the genre's detractors to ridicule arguably the most stand-out feature of most extreme music, i.e the low, growling vocals. Emperor, though, uses higher-pitched screams more often, as a black metal band is wont to do. I'm glad you can at least discern playing chops there----though if poor Emperor can stir your senses, musically-- I gotta lament how infinitely superior players can't--or don't. 'Stories and weird stuff' eh? That could be 'artistry' of some sort, at least, you reckon? lol


                                Look sith, the more you so steadfastly insist on accusing extreme metal lyrics of being insidiously damaging to people's psyches---and being direct or indirect actual 'incitement' to horrible, heinous acts, the more I'm inclined to argue that you're letting deep-seated personal prejudice and a blatant paranoia inform your opinions on this issue. I recognise the plausibility of what you describe as 'disturbed' 'damaged' individuals of various types that can be, and often are, pushed over the brink by suggestive stimuli---'contributing factors'---as you called it. But, sith, I've always found this whole underlying fear, suspicion and vilifcation of, and the periodic public 'crusade' against the allegedly iniquitous, inciteful nature of extreme music is, at best, woefully wrong-headed, and at worst, just another intolerant, self-righteous, self-serving even, smear campaign. Death metal never merited to be so misunderstood or maligned. There's not a shred of respectable, much less irrefutable, evidence to confirm that death metal (or other extreme music) has ever been a particularly, if at all, a strong 'contributory' factor to depraved, vile criminality and other despicable actions by individuals that have been routinely exposed to this genre of music.

                                The sorts of arguments about the corrupting influence of death metal that you roll out here are patently highly speculative, dangerously specious.....and no, a flat-out fallacy, to my mind. Butt was onto something when he talked of this sounding like a 'conspiracy theory' cooking on your burners, mate. More seriously, I see no compelling evidence whatsoever---from my personal experience of being heavily into the extreme metal scene, travelling, meeting, interacting with bands, fans, reading extensively about issues surrounding our extreme metal fan community and the societies and different countries we live in----that there's ever been more than a passing, totally random, isolated few instances of psychologically ill individuals who have gone over the brink and committed a vicious offense----and there's no clear linkage of criminal, savage crimes committed to being a death metal fan, per se. Accusations of extreme music being a 'contributory' factor to steadily 'desensitizing' impressionable audiences and already 'damaged' persons into embracing crime and violence as a form of depraved thrill-seeking, are purely arbitrary, biased perspectives----lending themselves to flimsy and wholly unconvincing linkages between violence in society and the death metal genre that allegedly advocates and exacerbates it. This cannot be the arguments of a serious, literate, rational society----nor that of a non-fan of the genre.



                                You want to tell me that these guys aren't advocating bad things:

                                From the song "Kill the Christian":

                                Kill the christian, kill the christian
                                Kill the christian, kill the christian
                                Kill the christian, kill the christian
                                Kill the christian

                                Armies of darkness unite
                                Destroy their temples and churches with fire
                                Where in his world will you hide
                                Sentenced to death, the anointment of christ

                                In due time your path leads to me
                                Put you out of your misery

                                The death of prediction
                                Kill the christian

                                Kill the christian...dead!
                                You can read and interpret anything and all that you want into those lyrics. No small mercy that a mighty majority of death metal fans apparently don't take such lyrics either too literally and seriously as offended, paranoid critics like you do------nor as some incitement to act on them as you might suspect. There's no 'subliminal' hidden message of murder and mayhem there---no matter what it looks like, at mere face value.

                                Hey, I was actually listening to this terrific song just the other night---and even posted it in the appropriate thread. The musicianship on the song is nothing short of breath-takingly cool, as is the majority of the Deicide discography.

                                Kill the Christian was stupidly "banned" in many countries. And as much as some fans complain about the 'same old' lyrical staple of Deicide---the band actually moved away somewhat from their unrelenting, vitriolic anti-Christian verses, on their last album. But sith, this isn't something to get all worked up over, or parade as your Exhibit A of supposed incriminating 'evidence' of the 'vicious' influence of Death Metal, or Deicide LOL *btw, Glen Benton and gang have been "spewing" not the 'bullshit' that your ears have heard, but pure death metal awesomeness, for actually 20, not ten years.
                                Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 03:57 AM.
                                "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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