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Robert Plants comment about sabbath.

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  • fishtowner
    replied
    They are different and i like both. They both have a lot to offer. I'm big on acoustic guitar and mandolin and zeppelin satisfies that a lot and sabbath offers me everything I like about electric guitar and loud amps. Powerful chugging riffs. Zeps notto bad there either.

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  • Gardener
    replied
    I mut say I never saw the point of these comparisons betwwen Zeppellin and Sabbath. Their musics are so different that I don't really see what to compare here. They are both legends in their own right. They both achieved something unique. Led Zeppelin took Blues Rock and took it it to the next level. They turned it into Hard Rock, and doing so they opened the way for legions of bands who would explore this new way of playing Rock music in the 70s and 80s. Sabbath, on the other hand, took Blues and Jazz, crushed them and created Heavy Metal, paving the road for an army of Metal bands and different Metal currents. You can't compare them because they were totally different, and what they did was totally different.

    During the interview I did with him in 2005, I think Bill Ward gave a great view of what happened : "[When we heard Zeppelin's first record], we just sat and listened, thinking "Oh my God ! What are these guys doing ?" Because, until then, even if there had been bands who had played harder Rock like THE WHO, and even if CREAM had defined a new way to aprehend Rock music, these bands were only a handful. And then Zep came, and everything changed. And when we released the first BLACK SABBATH album something like eight months later, it was like the entire face of popular music was changed forever."

    You can't compare Zeppelin's and Sabbath's legacies, because they are too different to be compared.

    Now, I'd be totally dishonest if I didn't say something about the "Zeppelin stole music" thing. I'm a huge Zeppelin fan, but you can't seriously ignore that a great deal of their catalogue was stolen. I'd have absolutely no problem with that, if they had credited the original authors. But the problem is they didn't (see the few lawsuits they lost to Howling Wolf for example). That's too bad, because I don't think people would have liked them less if they had known their songs were covers. But another thing I have to agree on (and I wouldn't call myself a fan if I didn't think that), it's that Led Zeppelin were extremely gifted musicians and arrangers, and a gigantic war machine onstage (from 1970 to 1975, I can't figure any band who could even dream to reach their level onstage. They were just too huge to be true). And each and every tune they covered, borrowed or stole, they just made it so much better that they indeed turned them into Zeppelin songs. Listen to Leadbelly's original version of "Gallows Pole" from 1935 entitled "Gallis Pole" and you'll get what I mean :

    Leadbelly : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmTNgJxlrCY
    Zeppelin : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1kxb1FC3Vg

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    OK best 3 Zep LPs in order:

    - Led Zep 3
    - Physical Graffiti
    - Led Zep 4 (or whatever it's called - we always knew it as 4)

    Best 3 Sabbath:

    - Vol4
    - Never Say Die
    - Sabotage

    By the way RLP4ever I'd say the first 8 LPs are great apart from Tech Ec.

    Anyone who says they are comparable in terms of raw power, imagination, energy, sheer enjoyment, etc, is just wrong. Sabbath were leagues ahead in imagination and execution. Wheels of Confusion is just something Led Zeppelin could not have written.

    Led Zeppelin were probably a better live band (apparently), although I never saw either in their prime so I'll never be able to make a judgement on that. But 'The Song Remains the Same' please!!! Self-indulgent nonsense doesn't even come close. Moby Dick is the definition of pretentious.

    Don't get me wrong I like Zeppelin but to me they are just a really good blues/rock/folk outfit. Sabbath made something entirely unique.
    If you leave TE out, then it's really the 'first six' and the 'last one' i.e the 7, not 8, albums of the original (Ozzy)-era Sabbath that you consider 'great'. Now, I've always regarded the first six (coincidentally, ditto for Zeppelin and Van Halen) to be the true 'essential' 'classic' records. I like both TE and NSD, but quite a lot less than the first six albums.

    I'm somebody that thinks that Zeppelin and Sabbath are actually mostly rather different bands, with of course, some similarities as well----but I'd insist they are absolutely 'comparable' in sheer musical class and greatness. And that's my opinion, indeed it's not 'right' or 'wrong' of anybody to feel that way, as you dismissively declared earlier. If anything, there are numerous fans (of both bands) that have often argued (or actually conceded) that Zeppelin were the "more accomplished musicians" overall. That's, of course, a relative thing, as personal perceptions go, but to say Sabbath were "leagues ahead in imagination and execution" sounds to me like over-the-top rabble-rousing, no less.

    Wheels of Confusion is just something Led Zeppelin could not have written
    Wish Jimmy and mates had tried that sometime, maybe. And I could just as easily counter by saying that Achilles Last Stand, for example, is something that Black Sabbath could not have written . These are silly, pointless hypotheses, surely.

    Also, sadly, I have never been able to watch either band in their glory years in the '70s, owing to location, circumstances and age.

    Ha, to think that Led Zeppelin have copped the carping of critics and non-fans calling them 'rip-offs', 'over-rated', Page has been slammed for being 'sloppy' playing live, Plant has been derided for his voice and stage performances, and now you aren't the first one to hurl the 'self-indulgent', 'pretentious' slur at them. It's hard not to wonder or 'get you wrong', mythology, about whether you're really much of a Zeppelin fan at all. They were certainly a lot more than you're willing to hand them credit for when you say they were "just a really good blues/rock/folk outfit. Sabbath made something entirely unique". I'd argue Zeppelin were virtuoso musicians with truly eclectic tastes and influences who fused their musical ideas in ways that were entirely unprecedented, unrivalled and unique---as much as we give Sabbath due credit for their pioneering heavy metal impact.

    Look, rock, metal, heck MUSIC itself, is inherently replete with 'self-indulgences' of all sorts. I'll admit that I, too, have found a few Zep songs/performances, whether in the studio or out live, to seem to drag, bore and annoy, and appear quite self-indulgent excess, at times. BUT, Led Zep's peers in classic rock/metal, and that includes Sabbath, can all be considered 'guilty' of the very same tendencies that you seem to single out Zeppelin for. Bottom line is, and I've stated it in these forums before, that unlike some people that claim to actually be fans of both Zeppelin and Sabbath, I never felt the urge to somehow, sometimes put one down to put the other one up on a pedestal. I love 'em both, but Zeppelin slightly more.

    Lastly, your personal rankings of "best Led Zep and Sabbath LPs" do not match my own. Now, would I be very "wrong" in disagreeing with your 'best 3 list'?

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  • The Rules Mob
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    OK best 3 Zep LPs in order:

    - Led Zep 3
    - Physical Graffiti
    - Led Zep 4 (or whatever it's called - we always knew it as 4)
    This list is Exhibit A in the case establishing that comparing bands is generally too subjective an exercise to seriously use the term "wrong." You can't leave 2 or HOTH off a top 3 Zeppelin albums list and replace either with PG.


    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    But 'The Song Remains the Same' please!!! Self-indulgent nonsense doesn't even come close. Moby Dick is the definition of pretentious.
    I agree that the live performances on TSRTS and HTWWW have elements of self indulgence to them. You would agree with me though, would you not, that so do a fair amount of Sabbath's recorded and released live performances? The medley on Live at Last and Heaven and Hell from Live Evil leap to mind here. I love both bands, but you can't rip Zeppelin for self indulgence live in a post praising Sabbath.

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    Anyone who says they are comparable in terms of raw power, imagination, energy, sheer enjoyment, etc, is just wrong.
    Some would agree. millions wouldn't. To say that as a statement of fact is plainly bullshit as it's YOUR OPINION plain & simple. You're entitled to it, but it doesn't make everybody else wrong.

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  • mythology
    replied
    OK best 3 Zep LPs in order:

    - Led Zep 3
    - Physical Graffiti
    - Led Zep 4 (or whatever it's called - we always knew it as 4)

    Best 3 Sabbath:

    - Vol4
    - Never Say Die
    - Sabotage

    By the way RLP4ever I'd say the first 8 LPs are great apart from Tech Ec.

    Anyone who says they are comparable in terms of raw power, imagination, energy, sheer enjoyment, etc, is just wrong. Sabbath were leagues ahead in imagination and execution. Wheels of Confusion is just something Led Zeppelin could not have written.

    Led Zeppelin were probably a better live band (apparently), although I never saw either in their prime so I'll never be able to make a judgement on that. But 'The Song Remains the Same' please!!! Self-indulgent nonsense doesn't even come close. Moby Dick is the definition of pretentious.

    Don't get me wrong I like Zeppelin but to me they are just a really good blues/rock/folk outfit. Sabbath made something entirely unique.

    Leave a comment:


  • devilmaycare
    replied
    Originally posted by mythology View Post
    but lp-for-lp sabbath absolutely massacre zeppelin .
    RLP nicely sums up the main gist of what I would have written in response to your plagiarism claims.

    So let me just add in response to the quoted text...

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahaha!
    Last edited by devilmaycare; 09-28-2009, 06:15 AM.

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    I find stuff to agree with in both what dmc and mythology say here. First, dmc states an all too well-known fact by most long-time Zep die-hards and even Robert Plant's greatest fans (myself included) i.e. Plant always had an 'ego' that apparently dwarfs some of Hollywood's worst. He's been known to (and I've heard him myself) make awfully snide, condescending remarks about numerous fellow rockers (the jibes at Coverdale were pretty mean-spirited and not wholly justified) and he hadn't spared Jimmy Page either, (throughout their obviously rocky relationship post-Zeppelin. Like dmc, I admire Plant immensely and he probably remains my favourite rock vocalist of all time, but his characterstic obnoxiousness when speaking of many of his peers in rock, has never been one of his appealing traits, by a long shot.

    mythology correctly states the high likelihood of that particular instance possibly being a "crappy gig" by just a fledgling band like Sabbath were, at the time. Heaven knows, everybody, including the Zep foursome have had them, especially, in that particular year and period. I can imagine any other British rock band of the time feeling that way about a random Zep show, on one of their off-days.

    HOWEVER, this:

    Originally posted by mythology
    But LP-for-LP Sabbath absolutely massacre Zeppelin
    Being somebody that actually slightly prefers Zep to Sabbath, I find this above particularly scandalous propaganda. For me, 'LP-for-LP' Ozzy-era Sabbath (the first six records) is a dead-heat tie with (again the first six) Zeppelin albums. Other than that, i.e. post-Ozzy Sabbath doesn't have a prayer and gets an embarrassing trouncing if stacked up against classic Zeppelin, in my book.

    Regarding the often proven, albeit exaggerated, accusations of outright 'uncredited' 'plagiarism' to be found in many of Led Zeppelin's career catalogue of songs, I'd just say that a lot of those 'old blues tunes' were superbly 'Zeppelinised' (for want of a better term ) in ways that make them stand as 'original' Zep tunes, in their own right. I think rarely, if ever, did they sound like blatant cheap-skate rip-offs in their adoption of old, often obscure, blues tunes. If anything, and as cynical as it may obviously sound, Led Zep actually helped make the Blues, the old masters, and the tunes they allegedly 'nicked' way more powerful, popular and indelible during their time than pretty much anybody else that aspired to (or claimed to) play modern heavy blues-rock.

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  • mythology
    replied
    It might well have been a crap gig. Every band has them.

    But LP-for-LP Sabbath absolutely massacre Zeppelin .

    I really like Zep, but they had nothing like the originality that Sabbath had. Plant sums it up in the article when he refers to "nicking old blues stuff ". Most bands did this in the 70s but Zep's sounds like a straight copy sometimes whereas Sabbath did something original with theirs.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

    Just to prove my point about Zeppelin nicking stuff. This is nicked from another Internet site :-)

    A list of some of the songs Zep stole from other artists:

    "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."

    "Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.

    "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).

    "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

    "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."

    "Dazed And Confused" - uncredited cover of the Jake Holmes song (see The Above Ground Sound Of Jake Holmes).

    "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."

    "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."

    "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).

    "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.

    "Moby Dick" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.

    "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.

    "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.

    "Stairway To Heaven" - the main guitar line is apparently from "Taurus" by Spirit.

    "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

    "Whole Lotta Love" - lyrics are from the Willie Dixon blues "You Need Love."

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  • fishtowner
    replied
    Originally posted by Franklin View Post
    It's also possible the comment referred to that show being crap, not Black Sabbath in general. Ozzy was using a lot of drugs back in the 70's and did more than his fair share of crap shows.
    In the article plant claimed it was zeps first tour which was 69 so sabbath if they were sabbath at that time would have been pretty drug free or at least drug free compared to the mid 70's sabbath.

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  • Wicked Cricket
    replied
    I read where Zep wanted to manage BS at one time, so I don't put much into the "this is crap" comment. On the contrary, Zep were fans of Sabbath.

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  • devilmaycare
    replied
    As much as I love Zep and think both Page & JPL have been complete gentlemn whenever I've had the pleasure of meeting them, Plant can be an utter dickhead when the mood takes him. I admire him on so many levels, not least his reluctance and refusal to be drawn into a faux Zeppelin "reunion" tour, but by all accounts he's a bit of a knob.

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  • mikesline
    replied
    Originally posted by Franklin View Post
    It's also possible the comment referred to that show being crap, not Black Sabbath in general. Ozzy was using a lot of drugs back in the 70's and did more than his fair share of crap shows.
    that may be true,but i still love to hear some bootlegs of these shows your talking about
    i know of one show where the amps blew for tony and ozzy
    got the people to sing when the saints go marching in--that might be considered "crap show" to someone,but not me.

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  • Franklin
    replied
    It's also possible the comment referred to that show being crap, not Black Sabbath in general. Ozzy was using a lot of drugs back in the 70's and did more than his fair share of crap shows.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axe fiend
    replied
    I think Bonham and Tony were great friends (John was Tony's best man at one point), but I think ol' Percy was too full of himself to have any friends!

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