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  • sellingmysoul
    replied
    Both Awesome bands.

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  • Jeff
    replied
    Plant has made a number of derogatory comments about Sabbath over the years. I've never understood why he feels the need. He's a successful artist. It comes off as bizarre.

    The Sabbath guys have only ever been respectful towards Led Zeppelin, even if I'm sure they have opinions about some of their material as well.

    The only thing I can think of which was a slight blow was that Jezz Woodruffe said they all listened to Presence and thought it sucked. They didn't like "Achilles Last Stand" at all. Woodruffe loved it. Maybe when he joined Plant he told him about that. Who knows? But the problem goes way back/ John Paul Jones made some comment about Zep IV around the time it came out that it should "put an end to comparisons to Black Sabbath."

    But I've never heard Sabbath say anything publicly about Led Zeppelin that was anything other than positive. Not their style. Tony's comments about Bonham being "the power" behind Led Zeppelin was not a criticism. He was describing the difference in approach in how the two bands played. And he's absolutely right. You listen to something like "Immigrant Song" and imagine how Tony would attack that riff.

    Everyone knows Bonham loved "Supernaut." Tony has recently said that Bonham really wanted to play it but didn't play it correctly and things would usually end up in some blues jam.

    Page has been to numerous Sabbath shows in recent years and clearly is capable in his old age of just hanging out with his old friends and being thankful that they are still alive and kicking, and that their music still moves millions when many of their peers haven't had the same fortune. I have no idea if Plant is capable of this.

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  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Everything Sabbath did from the great 8 to Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Born Again beats the whole Zeppelin catalog, this is coming from a Zep fan, hands down.
    Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 06-27-2018, 02:33 PM.

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  • Paulie 88
    replied
    Sabbath albums I have: All of them.

    Zepplin albums I have: None.

    Nuff said.

    All the best,
    PAULIE

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  • kamikazetom
    replied
    Originally posted by WheelsOfConfusion View Post
    If this thread and the OP is a train, this is what has happened to it:
























    Way too funny & too true - as far as the original comment - why does anyone care what Robert Plant thinks about Sabbath or any other band - he's not going to influence me one way or another on bands I like (nor is anyone else) I like to make my own opinions on the music I buy & found it funny seeing how The Sith Empire, Ashley, The Butt & RLP all got after it on DM/BM again just because someone's doesn't like the music you like doesn't matter - I threw my 2 cents in because KD lives in the Dallas Area & I know some people who have played in his band & have met him many times - trust me he doesn't advocate doing evil anymore than Stephen King does in his writing & just think you shouldn't give up listening to his music simply because someone says he's evil or bad

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  • WheelsOfConfusion
    replied
    If this thread and the OP is a train, this is what has happened to it:

























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  • kamikazetom
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I haven't forgotten that statement I made, and to it I still hold true. Art does transcend the artist. But as you might have noticed in other statements I've made, I will not give money to any flagrant abuser of human and/or animal rights, not while they're alive. The only time I would is if they regretted their actions and turned away from their wrongdoing. I do believe in redemption and the fact that people can change if they want to. Since the DM/BM bands, especially those we've discussed are IMO advocating evil thought and evil doings, I wouldn't support them no matter how brilliant I thought the music was. It's why I no longer own any Mercyful Fate or King Diamond albums. I LOVED his music, especially those first two MF albums (and the earlier recordings that included "Nuns have no fun"). Musically, at the time I felt like nothing beat that (except for Sabbath, of course). But I picked them up when I was young and didn't have a strong moral code. When that started to develop, into the garbage went those albums (but I can still remember Hank Shermann's amazing riffs!).


    You don't know that. Could just be he's a coward, an armchair satanist with a big mouth.


    It's like Sabbath said in the 70's; they were more worried about harm from the extremist "Christians" than the Satanists, though they were under threat from both. But at any rate, none of the wars, murders, forced conversions, etc., are the result of true Christianity, but rather the watered down abomination that took its place when third-century institution of Christendom merged with the State. But the Bible warns long and loud to any paying attention about wolves in sheep's clothing, the threat of pseudo-Christians and the need to avoid becoming institutionalized by religion and state. Those who ignore Christ's command to love your neighbors and enemies are simply NOT Christians, despite what they may call themselves.
    I'm confused King Diamond advocating evil?? his solo albums are horror stories & the 'bad people' in them always get punished & if you read his interviews or ever get a chance to meet him you find he never advocates evil & points out in his music the bad things that go on in life - one of the nicest people I have ever met

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I haven't forgotten that statement I made, and to it I still hold true. Art does transcend the artist. But as you might have noticed in other statements I've made, I will not give money to any flagrant abuser of human and/or animal rights, not while they're alive. The only time I would is if they regretted their actions and turned away from their wrongdoing. I do believe in redemption and the fact that people can change if they want to. Since the DM/BM bands, especially those we've discussed are IMO advocating evil thought and evil doings, I wouldn't support them no matter how brilliant I thought the music was.
    I am not criticizing you for doing so. But I am merely saying, do not expect everybody to share those views. You've said that these genres don't deserve to exist, which simply isn't true.

    I do not feel obliged to shun away good art simply because the artist, with whom I have no personal connection with, may have committed a murder or burned a church... or even done something so harmless as write some gore lyrics. This, like any other piece of art, deserves to be explored... and while I appreciate some people's morals may prevent them from doing so, I should be able to check this music out as I please... and the artists should be able to continue producing this music as they please.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    It's why I no longer own any Mercyful Fate or King Diamond albums. I LOVED his music, especially those first two MF albums (and the earlier recordings that included "Nuns have no fun"). Musically, at the time I felt like nothing beat that (except for Sabbath, of course). But I picked them up when I was young and didn't have a strong moral code. When that started to develop, into the garbage went those albums (but I can still remember Hank Shermann's amazing riffs!).
    I fail to see what Mercyful Fate or King Diamond have done at all, really. They're actually quite tame bands, both musically and in real life. Those two bands are the last two bands you should be worried about.

    ---------- Post added at 04:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Actually I can make claims on it if I so choose. Sure, your right, less intimate knowledge with something makes the claim far less noteworthy, which is what I have said before.
    I should've been more clear. Without sufficient knowledge of newer DM and BM, you can't really make correct claims on the genres.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Maybe not but it certainly makes it the most important. Without the first, you'd never get the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, so on and so forth.
    Importance =/= quality.

    Yes, everybody realizes that Possessed, Death, were the most IMPORTANT death metal bands. Not denying that. But there's so much good death metal today that is on par, or I would even consider more enjoyable. I will always place those early bands on a golden pedastal but that doesn't detract from the legitimacy of these newer bands.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    No that is not what the logic means at all. There is a notable difference between someone with no musical skill whatsoever, who listens to music simply for the joy of it, offering opinions and someone WITH musical skill. Certainly the one without musical skill has every right to voice their opinion, that should go without saying for sure. Unfortunately their opinion only goes as far as rather the paticular piece of creation is entertaining or not, it has no business being involved in a discussion upon what is skilled or not. Because they don't know...
    The person without musical skill's opinons are just as valid as the person with ages and ages of theory. Simply because as I pointed out before, one can create music... legendary music at that, without even knowing a lot of theory at all. Chuck Schuldiner, one of your beloved death metal legends, being the aforementioned example.

    I'd argue that Varg Vikernes is another example... he got his first guitar at 14 years old, and wrote/recorded the first Burzum album at 16. Generally regarded in metal circles to be a legendary album, for the atmosphere and dark undertones it creates. Varg may have been sloppy at his instruments but the music he had in his mind, accomplishes more than a lot of more able-bodied instrumentalists can achieve.

    Music is not about technical skill, nor about theory, it is about what comes from within, and the feelings it evokes. Music is ambience, music is art, not lines and dots on a sheet of paper.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I would not offer my culinary knowledge on the subject of Beef. Not because I am without knowledge of said product but because I'll never eat the fattening and coroded stuff. So since I have little knowledge about Beef, the farthest my opinion goes is: "I Think Beef Is Nasty". Anything more and I would be deserving of a retorical: "What The Hell Do You Know?"
    I need not even comment on this because you are seriously comparing music to beef. This is flawed logic at the extreme. Playing music and eating beef are not parallel at all. Eating beef involves no skill whatsoever, involves no thought process or imagination.

    Not to mention there are factual guidelines as to what constitutes good beef and bad beef. It even has grades for christ's sake. There is no such thing for music.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Same goes for music. If you want to talk about rather a music is entertaining to you or not, feel free, nothing wrong with that. But if someone starts talking about something being talented or not while having never picked up a musical instrument is just wrong.
    Thing is, you're sounding like being talented at one's instrument is essential to producing good/great music. Yes, it helps but it is possible to produce great music without knowing a lot of theory or having a good hold of your instrument... for the sole reason that music is not all about technicality or the constraints of one's instrument.
    Last edited by The Butt; 11-20-2009, 03:04 AM.

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  • Ashley Dalby
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    Therein lies the rub. You constantly make claims on the legitimacy of modern death metal, and black metal, and then right now admit you haven't listened to a decent portion of bands. You can't really make claims on modern death metal and black metal, until you've at least heard, and given fair listens to a respectable portion of bands from the scene.
    Actually I can make claims on it if I so choose. Sure, your right, less intimate knowledge with something makes the claim far less noteworthy, which is what I have said before.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    There's no less amount of variation in death metal, than there was in the late 80s. Being the first at something, does not make it the best.
    Maybe not but it certainly makes it the most important. Without the first, you'd never get the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, so on and so forth.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    Being a musician and knowing about musical knowledge really means fuck all when it comes to credibility regarding musical opinions, you of all people should know this... by that logic, in order to critique movies, one should have to have put out a multi-million dollar box office hit of their own.
    No that is not what the logic means at all. There is a notable difference between someone with no musical skill whatsoever, who listens to music simply for the joy of it, offering opinions and someone WITH musical skill. Certainly the one without musical skill has every right to voice their opinion, that should go without saying for sure. Unfortunately their opinion only goes as far as rather the paticular piece of creation is entertaining or not, it has no business being involved in a discussion upon what is skilled or not. Because they don't know...

    I would not offer my culinary knowledge on the subject of Beef. Not because I am without knowledge of said product but because I'll never eat the fattening and coroded stuff. So since I have little knowledge about Beef, the farthest my opinion goes is: "I Think Beef Is Nasty". Anything more and I would be deserving of a retorical: "What The Hell Do You Know?"

    Same goes for music. If you want to talk about rather a music is entertaining to you or not, feel free, nothing wrong with that. But if someone starts talking about something being talented or not while having never picked up a musical instrument is just wrong.
    Last edited by Ashley Dalby; 11-20-2009, 02:17 AM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    To thesithempire: I thought about replying to your last post, but no, mate...I rather won't. I reckon your "we have to agree to (comprehensively) disagree on this" line neatly captures the essence (and the end) of our honest, heart-felt and thoroughly lucid and stimulating exchanges, at least on this thread, for this time.

    Hey, don't sign up on that 'crusade', though.. and I promise to be the good, law-abiding, decent dude myself AND keep some of the fellow death metal devotess in my neighbourhood, reined in and sane and sound. HAHAHA. Cheers, sith!
    LOL! That sounds like a fair trade to me!

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I was not suggesting anyone here is poor by any means and if you are massively wealthy than congratulations, but I guess I once again failed to illustrate my point that leaves no room for interpretation.

    You'd be surprised sir how many crimes are overlooked based on money. Like others have said before, "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE ALL-MIGHTY DOLLAR"

    Money can buy your way out of any crime, believe it or not if you wish,
    Well, you had said this:

    Since I would be willing to bet that no one on this forum is FILTHY Rich
    And while 'FILTHY Rich' is a particularly slovenly expression, I did get your drift and thought it was a pretty lazy, tall assumption anyway to make on a board with so many members. I wouldn't know, though, who is 'rich' or 'poor' or anywhere 'in-between', on this forum board. And thank you for the kudos on my being born and bred in astounding affluence. . I've had a privileged life---or as dmc earlier suggested--somebody born with a 'silver spoon advantage' Oh, I do recognise how money can and has bought off and short-changed 'justice', so rest assured you did not get lost in translation.



    Since you emphasize the word alleged part, this is not even worth responding to.
    Well, it was never 'proven'; so choosing to respond or not is your free will. Don't make it sound like anybody that refuses to outright condemn MJ, based on confusing, circumstantial, flimsy 'evidence' that failed to convince either the jury or countless people following the entire sordid saga----are in 'denial'.

    Okay, the problem with your input on this is you not taking your predetermined mindset and perhaps not reading what I wrote correctly. I am well aware that Savatage was NEVER a Death Metal band. Perhaps get off your high horse and actually read who the original DM bands cite as their influences and Savatage will always be on the list. Critics admit how huge an influence the band was on the sound of the original DM bands were, as well as (NY imported to FL - Cannibal Corpse).
    It would help if you could write what you mean rather more coherently, more often, then. You sure made it sound and offered a pair of links as 'clinchers' to your case that Savatage was some sort of huge influence and inspiration to emerging death metallers in years to follow. This was nothing about my having a "pre-determined mindset", so if anybody has to get off horses or towers, it is you---in quitting making sweeping declarations and that lecturing, patronising tone. You talk of "critics admit" ...Since when have 'critics' commenting on death metal begun to be believed about who influenced who or what in this genre?? As for the pioneering DM bands, I don't need to merely 'read', I've 'heard' them speak, on record, about which bands they loved in their youth and which were the ones that in whatever small or big ways actually 'influenced' their own playing and musical ideas. Slayer, Sepultura, Metallica, Motorhead, the NWOBHM acts like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, and the punk-rock, hardcore acts of the time are routinely acknowledged to have had the biggest impact on the young, emerging death metal bands starting off the blocks, in the mid-to-late '80s. I'm not saying Savatage couldn't have had any role at all----of course they might have been on somebody, somewhere. But I felt you were clearly over-stating the case in associating Savatage's sound with death metal, or their impact on those early bands. Savatage were out and out POWER METAL, and I have an easier time believing they inspired the likes of Manowar or Hammerfall, than say, Cannibal Corpse or Morbid Angel. LOL

    Sure you can put forth what you say all you want and I would agree with part of what you write. But there is a huge difference between coming in after the fact, reading books on the subject and getting the info from other people, then actually attending the same schools at the same time and watching the subject fledge from the ground. You can claim all you want to have more accurate knowledge on the subject, especially since I cite a band as an influence and you disagree with me. On the modern DM I would not argue you know more about it than I do, that is pretty obvious. But in regards to the classic era, you can take all the information you've read, researched and live by but it is not the same as being there.

    That is like saying you know more about fighting in a war when you never have and your talking to a soldier. It does not mean you are wrong on things since a lot of what you write is accurate, which should be expected since you are emotionally connected with the genre. But whatever knowledge you may have is coming from a source that did not involve: BEING THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED, unless you were and just not stating it.
    This is a highly fatuous and unfair argument you're advancing here. For all your Florida roots, and being of a certain age and the supposed 'advantage' of actually "being there" and 'seeing it all' as it were, at that time---I think it's a pretty big stretch to suggest that being in the "smack, dab middle of the action" as you once told me in the forums a long time ago, actually validates, without question, whatever you have to say on the subject of death metal. You went to the same schools as guys like Chris Barnes, Pete Sandoval, John Tardy and the rest did?? You saw them practice, gig, and tour? You knew what they were up to, long before we starry-eyed newbies found out what all the buzz was about, right? So you will insist that death metal really had begun in '81 or soon after? Gosh, I wanna turn back time and be transported there to find if what you're saying is true----or am I being such a prick in denying your 'revisionist' awry version of the documented history of death metal, its origins and its development as a musical force in the '80s. Whatever it maybe, I'm so eternally grateful that it all actually happened the way it did.

    You mentioned 'soldiers' and 'wars'. I abhor wars, wouldn't wanna have the experience of soliders, and in any case, your troops oughta be back home.

    Oh no I would say that I have not given a ton of attention to the modern DM and part of my dislike is generalizing what I have heard as a whole, I'll admit it. There is an abundance of modern DM and BM bands I have never listened to and because of that I cannot critque their music. Maybe it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, so calling it all the same is wrong, sure. But what I HAVE heard from modern DM and BM bands have all sounded the same to me.
    That's sad, and it stands to reason that you haven't really seriously sampled a lot of modern DM/BM or even just new releases by veteran dm legends, as well. And I can assure you that they aren't all "the samey-sounding" or I would hope not be completely "boring" to you either. I'm curious to know sometime what 'modern DM and BM' you have properly heard through and still found 'same old boring'.

    I cannot recall ever being condescending to you sir, but I guess needing to state the obvious qualifies as such.

    I have no better way to explain the rather easy point I already have, so I will not try anymore. But just for future reference, talk to any musician, it does not matter if they are successful or not and start talking about musicial skill. See how quickly they look at you with that, "Oh I forgot about all your past experience in writing and playing music. Perhaps I should also forget that I am a musician and you are not but yet my musical knowledge and experience means nothing when your OPINION on what is good or bad is far more important to the subject"
    Oh, you definitely were. And you still are. What is pompously pointing out that I'm not a 'practising musician' and talking "simply opinion" if not obvious condescension? And you do this with that habitually conceited reference to your own involvement with writing and playing music and instruments. You definitely seem to imply (and do so right here, yet again) that ultimately you actually 'know better' than non-practising fans cum commentators like myself and others. Who is the one perched on some 'high horse' here, Ashely, let others judge, eh. I can't fathom how you took to thinking that anybody (certainly not I) ever belittled your "musical knowledge" and "experience". Heck, I don't even know too much about what all you know and got to show, anyway.

    You make a hilarious example of musicians rolling their eyes at our second-hand experience as fans. I can speak from my personal experience and good fortune of meeting up and talking with tons of metallers, over the years---but none have come across to me as these thin-skinned, conceited assholes that would give a patronising 'look' if 'we' talked about 'skills' and loads of other music and album-related chit-chat with them. So very many of them are such self-effacing, modest, and considerate people, that they would oblige with opinions and honest feedback, rather than react defensively and talk down to their greatest patrons----the FANS.


    To thesithempire: I thought about replying to your last post, but no, mate...I rather won't. I reckon your "we have to agree to (comprehensively) disagree on this" line neatly captures the essence (and the end) of our honest, heart-felt and thoroughly lucid and stimulating exchanges, at least on this thread, for this time.

    Hey, don't sign up on that 'crusade', though.. and I promise to be the good, law-abiding, decent dude myself AND keep some of the fellow death metal devotess in my neighbourhood, reined in and sane and sound. HAHAHA. Cheers, sith!
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-20-2009, 01:55 AM.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    It was YOU yourself who said in the past that "art transcends its creators" so I find it highly sketch/hypocritical now that you've all of a sudden turned the other cheek, now that it has nothing to do with your favorite band...
    I haven't forgotten that statement I made, and to it I still hold true. Art does transcend the artist. But as you might have noticed in other statements I've made, I will not give money to any flagrant abuser of human and/or animal rights, not while they're alive. The only time I would is if they regretted their actions and turned away from their wrongdoing. I do believe in redemption and the fact that people can change if they want to. Since the DM/BM bands, especially those we've discussed are IMO advocating evil thought and evil doings, I wouldn't support them no matter how brilliant I thought the music was. It's why I no longer own any Mercyful Fate or King Diamond albums. I LOVED his music, especially those first two MF albums (and the earlier recordings that included "Nuns have no fun"). Musically, at the time I felt like nothing beat that (except for Sabbath, of course). But I picked them up when I was young and didn't have a strong moral code. When that started to develop, into the garbage went those albums (but I can still remember Hank Shermann's amazing riffs!).

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    If people like Glen Benton actually wanted to see supporters of Christianity dead, he would have taken the matter into his own hands long ago rather than writing songs about it.
    You don't know that. Could just be he's a coward, an armchair satanist with a big mouth.

    Originally posted by The Butt View Post
    At least no more hateful than most Christians were in the past (wars, mass-murders, forced conversion, etc have been the result of Christianity, but that's not something I will go into further).
    It's like Sabbath said in the 70's; they were more worried about harm from the extremist "Christians" than the Satanists, though they were under threat from both. But at any rate, none of the wars, murders, forced conversions, etc., are the result of true Christianity, but rather the watered down abomination that took its place when third-century institution of Christendom merged with the State. But the Bible warns long and loud to any paying attention about wolves in sheep's clothing, the threat of pseudo-Christians and the need to avoid becoming institutionalized by religion and state. Those who ignore Christ's command to love your neighbors and enemies are simply NOT Christians, despite what they may call themselves.
    Last edited by thesithempire; 11-20-2009, 01:31 AM.

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  • The Butt
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    Oh no I would say that I have not given a ton of attention to the modern DM and part of my dislike is generalizing what I have heard as a whole, I'll admit it. There is an abundance of modern DM and BM bands I have never listened to and because of that I cannot critque their music. Maybe it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, so calling it all the same is wrong, sure. But what I HAVE heard from modern DM and BM bands have all sounded the same to me.
    Therein lies the rub. You constantly make claims on the legitimacy of modern death metal, and black metal, and then right now admit you haven't listened to a decent portion of bands. You can't really make claims on modern death metal and black metal, until you've at least heard, and given fair listens to a respectable portion of bands from the scene.

    There's no less amount of variation in death metal, than there was in the late 80s. Being the first at something, does not make it the best.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I cannot recall ever being condescending to you sir, but I guess needing to state the obvious qualifies as such.
    This is an example of being condescending right here. You constantly make it seem like you're "stating the obvious" towards people, making it seem like their little brains are incapable of comprehending whatever you're saying.

    Originally posted by Ashley Dalby View Post
    I have no better way to explain the rather easy point I already have, so I will not try anymore. But just for future reference, talk to any musician, it does not matter if they are successful or not and start talking about musicial skill. See how quickly they look at you with that, "Oh I forgot about all your past experience in writing and playing music. Perhaps I should also forget that I am a musician and you are not but yet my musical knowledge and experience means nothing when your OPINION on what is good or bad is far more important to the subject"
    Being a musician and knowing about musical knowledge really means fuck all when it comes to credibility regarding musical opinions, you of all people should know this... by that logic, in order to critique movies, one should have to have put out a multi-million dollar box office hit of their own.

    To further drive the point home, Chuck Schuldiner... rightfully regarded as a death metal legend, knew next to no musical theory. Would that mean that HIS opinion would be negligable, or "not credible" when it came to musical matters? I did not think so.



    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    We can agree to disagree on this. I think the evidence is copious in the news and in the history and sociology books. Studies on desensitization only back this up. But in truth, I just don't have time to prepare a bevy of articles to present scientific findings. But, of course, I also don't think it's necessary. But honestly, would it matter to you if I pulled up a bunch of studies that said, "yes, this is deleterious to the emotional/psychological health of some individuals"? Would you really stop and say, 'I shouldn't support something that's causing harm to some people?' I'm not asking this in a judgmental way whatsoever. Just curious.
    Death metal lyrics are no more "deterious to the emotional or psychological health of some individuals" than many other things in life. To blame them for causing mental harm to people is ridiculous.

    Anybody that would take the lyrics seriously is already in poor mental health as it is.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this as well. I don't think the date of these incidences makes them any less valid than if they happened yesterday.
    I repeat myself in that while I do not condone the church burnings, murders, etc, and fully support the imprisonment of such musicians... that does not detract from the legitimacy of the music. It was YOU yourself who said in the past that "art transcends its creators" so I find it highly sketch/hypocritical now that you've all of a sudden turned the other cheek, now that it has nothing to do with your favorite band.
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Sorry, nope. Love it all as much as ever. Bottom line is that the band's personal lives and dealings have never affected my enjoyment of the music. I barely link the two. Music, as with any art, transcends its creators. It's a thing of beauty unto itself, permanent and not subject to the winds of change.

    And as regards Ozzy's lawsuit, I have no problem with him wanting 50% or 25% or whatever of Black Sabbath's name. For one, because I think all four of the original members should have an equal stake, and ultimately that's the end I want to see, and two, it's not my place to tell Ozzy or Tony what they should and shouldn't want. It's up to the courts to decide what's fair and legal and what isn't. And if the fans disagree with whatever turns out, they have the right to not support it with their wallets.

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    And I also don't feel bad that these poor death metal bands have been "beaten up" by those who feel, as I do, that their lyrics are examples of severe hate-speech, and have potential long-term consequences. Matter of fact, I think the bands get off on it. If they're goals aren't to see the supporters of Christianity dead, then it's to reap the financial rewards from all the publicity and shock. But if so (and I am saying IF, though I strongly believe this is the case for some bands), then they're no better than some corporation exploiting its consumers.

    We have to agree to disagree on this too. I think it ABSOLUTELY makes them advocates. How could it not when they wrote those words. Whether they stand behind them or not, there's nothing ambiguous in those lyrics. He even uses the first-person pronoun! They're plain as day. "Oh, we didn't mean to actually advocate the killing of Christians or the burning of their churches. See the word "kill" and "burn" were used as metaphors for being really angry." That is most ridiculous justification I've ever heard! Deicide spent how many albums talking about killing God (the very name of the band), mutilating Jesus and slaughtering all of their supporters. The lyrics of a band is how a band communicates to its audience. Their open desire to see slaughtered Christians is the very definition of advocacy! Heck, there were some BM bands that publicly stood behind the burning of the churches. If nothing else, at least they were honest!
    If people like Glen Benton actually wanted to see supporters of Christianity dead, he would have taken the matter into his own hands long ago rather than writing songs about it. Fact of the matter is though, that he is a satanist and does legitimately believe that Christianity needs to cease (I don't share this belief, as I believe in God myself, but he's free to view things as he likes). I feel he should be allowed to share his religious views through his music... it's not hate-speech at all. At least no more hateful than most Christians were in the past (wars, mass-murders, forced conversion, etc have been the result of Christianity, but that's not something I will go into further).

    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    Actually, if I find out you've had sex with a corpse or indeed committed some atrocious act, I'd rather you emailed me from prison! But I think the chances of that are slim, as are the chances of my seeing "the light" in DM (especially when there's none to be found!).
    That's where our opinions diverge.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Thank you, though, for at least belatedly, acknowledging at least the talents and skills involved in the musicianship. And also, if only partially and grudgingly conceding that the DM/BM genres (and their numerous fans) aren't (ALL or always, in your view) exactly the dangerous, demented fiends adoring the (abhorrent music) that you started out declaring here, earlier.
    It was never my intent to do so, but if it looked that way, then it's a failure of my ability to convey what I really meant to say whilst in the passion of my responses. I'm glad I could at least clarify that. I also never intended to convey that in regards to rappers or their fans either. Two of my closest friends are hip-hop fans, and we have these kinds of arguments all the time. But my respect for them remains intact despite our disagreeing on matters of taste.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    As for providing you with 'shreds of evidence' proving that this music and the lyrical content are NOT the diabolical threats to public decency, social stability and sanity that you obdurately claim it is-----well, sith, I cannot stress enough how the real onus is actually on YOU to furnish compelling, copious evidence (if any exist) to the contrary---since it is you that so zealously insists on making exaggerated and mostly erroneous assumptions about and allegations against Death Metal, its lyrical content, and its fandom.
    We can agree to disagree on this. I think the evidence is copious in the news and in the history and sociology books. Studies on desensitization only back this up. But in truth, I just don't have time to prepare a bevy of articles to present scientific findings. But, of course, I also don't think it's necessary. But honestly, would it matter to you if I pulled up a bunch of studies that said, "yes, this is deleterious to the emotional/psychological health of some individuals"? Would you really stop and say, 'I shouldn't support something that's causing harm to some people?' I'm not asking this in a judgmental way whatsoever. Just curious.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Overblown, crassly sensationalised past incidents involving Black Metal musicians have honestly outlived their usefulness as a long stick with which to poke and beat up on these musicians and their fans. Nobody, not even the shrillest critics of old, rake up these past incidents too often, these days. That----and the random few reported cases or crime involving extreme music fans have been shown to be outright 'aberrations', and not remotely the norm as you'd like to believe.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this as well. I don't think the date of these incidences makes them any less valid than if they happened yesterday. And I also don't feel bad that these poor death metal bands have been "beaten up" by those who feel, as I do, that their lyrics are examples of severe hate-speech, and have potential long-term consequences. Matter of fact, I think the bands get off on it. If they're goals aren't to see the supporters of Christianity dead, then it's to reap the financial rewards from all the publicity and shock. But if so (and I am saying IF, though I strongly believe this is the case for some bands), then they're no better than some corporation exploiting its consumers.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Your Kill the Christian 'exhibit' is far from anything 'damning' at all against the genre or us fans. Glen Benton has said and done a lot of things over the years to stir up publicity and controversy, especially to rile and rub the noses of his and Deicide's asinine detractors. You are undoubtedly making a "fetish" of death metal lyrics in obsessing over, analysing, assailing and holding it up as an affront to public morality and civility etc.... You appear overly enamoured with the notion and have convinced your own self about the very 'literal'-ness and "vileness" of such lyrics and what you imagine are their effects on 'damaged' people that might be fans too. You suspect that the fact that I shrug off such seemingly inflammatory lyrics reveals my own "desensitization" to it all, is just flat-out nonsense premised on misguided beliefs such as your own. Truth is, I don't even read possibly half the lyrics in dm songs (though I can understand a fair amount of them)----I revel in the awesome metal musicianship and vocals, instead. Deicide has been admittedly infamous and consistent in their stridently anti-God, anti-Christianity stance. That, unsurprisingly, provokes a morally indignant backlash from variously offended folks. But it doesn't make Deicide an advocate, abettor or participant in the graphic violence or rage depicted in some of their lyrics
    We have to agree to disagree on this too. I think it ABSOLUTELY makes them advocates. How could it not when they wrote those words. Whether they stand behind them or not, there's nothing ambiguous in those lyrics. He even uses the first-person pronoun! They're plain as day. "Oh, we didn't mean to actually advocate the killing of Christians or the burning of their churches. See the word "kill" and "burn" were used as metaphors for being really angry." That is most ridiculous justification I've ever heard! Deicide spent how many albums talking about killing God (the very name of the band), mutilating Jesus and slaughtering all of their supporters. The lyrics of a band is how a band communicates to its audience. Their open desire to see slaughtered Christians is the very definition of advocacy! Heck, there were some BM bands that publicly stood behind the burning of the churches. If nothing else, at least they were honest!

    BUT if the band does not stand behind their lyrics, then they're the biggest fakes out there (which is btw how at least two members of Sabbath view satanic bands). Either way, it's just despicable in my eyes. So, yes, we have agree to disagree on this.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    -----nor luckily enough, have their countless fans ever been incriminated in violent acts that can be attributed to Deicide's often incendiary lyrics. You lament how 'Kill the Christian' passes muster when 'Kill....(insert other race/religions) would provoke an instant and far greater uproar. Well, without getting into overt politics (and I won't), you force me to point out that lots of other folks have reason to rightly complain about how we don't see references to 'Christian/Jewish terrorism' the way we more easily do about other religions, in our Western societies and media. I digress there.
    I'm no fan of the mainstream media at all. In the more unbiased world of NPR, however, Israel's been taken to task for their unbelievable acts of terrorism against Palestine a few months back (and still ongoing in their approach to the Gaza strip). And the record of so-called "Christian" atrocities is well-documented in everything from the Crusades up to and including both world wars and the horrendous accounts of child molestation.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    The banning of Kill the Christian was the knee-jerk reaction of the hypocrites and asshats that often drive a lot of the social commentary in the mainstream media and political circles. The banning was also futile and counter-productive. It gave Deicide a smash 'hit-single' of sorts and got more fans to buy the classic Once Upon the Cross album, from which this cool song is taken. Sith, since you've been vainly railing against death metal lyrics, all this time, I gotta wonder how some of the album cover artwork and actual song titles must rile you no end, and fill your head with utter disbelief and despair. .
    I think it's in ridiculously bad taste and a poor reflection of the men who would commission such artwork, but it doesn't fill me with either disbelief or despair. In fact, it's exactly what I expect for the times we're living in. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though. And it doesn't mean I have to sheepishly sit by and say nothing about it for fear of offending them or their fans. DM/BM bands and some of their fans have no problem offending us. I proudly stand by my views in the face of being called various epithets. That stuff just makes me laugh, and I don't wilt easily at name-calling or being shouted down at (I'm not saying you have). And despite the despicable acts of false-Christians, I'm proud to wear the badge of Christian. The only difference is that I don't wish to see them dead. I would like to see them knock off the hate speech, if for no other reason to spare their propaganda from influencing others (those who do pay attention to the lyrics), but I don't expect it. This world breeds rage and despair.

    Originally posted by RLP4ever View Post
    Look, maybe we could do this on an appropriate 'blog' and maybe even on CNN, someday, LOL.... but I'm convinced that we'd only really be talking over and past each other, in arguing this issue, any further. You'd be better off steering clear of the death metal that so dismays and outrages you, while I will undoubtedly go on passionately loving the music as I've done all these years. If you ever hear of me killing Christians or razing a Church or fucking a zombie yada yada Lol, I will grovel at your noble feet, ok...and if you ever come around to 'seeing the light' (your words) about death metal, you owe me the best booze money can buy, in your neck of the woods, alright?
    Actually, if I find out you've had sex with a corpse or indeed committed some atrocious act, I'd rather you emailed me from prison! But I think the chances of that are slim, as are the chances of my seeing "the light" in DM (especially when there's none to be found!). But if I need a fix of the extreme, I can dig out my old Exciter, Overkill and Celtic Frost albums (though I'll need a working needle for the former two). I really do think what CF was doing prior to Cold Lake (I know, the name that should never be uttered!) was amazing, and far more akin to the kinds of music I'm interested in and listen to.
    Last edited by thesithempire; 11-19-2009, 10:27 PM.

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  • RLP4ever
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire
    The fact that you can so readily just shrug off a song where the singer is CLEARLY inciting the murder of Christians and the burning of Christian churches shows me you're too involved in the scene to be remotely objective any longer. You're so accustomed to reading such lyrics and making excuses for them that you no longer even see just how vile, hate-filled and wrong they are. Does that not show desensitization at work? Exhibit A is damning, but so are all the exhibits (from Deicide at least). Words are ideas, and ideas have moved men to good or ill. You want facts to support that? Read any history or sociology book.

    Now I'm not on any crusade, but to be honest with you, after this discussion, I'm less hesitant to support one, and I probably would if I wasn't more "paranoid" about the slippery slope of freedom of speech being taken away. But I don't feel any less convinced of my arguments than before. In fact, all I've seen in defense of DM is specious reasoning that it's just words, with nothing meant behind them, harmless, and set to purportedly great music.

    I'll give you the skills of the players.
    I'll give you that some DM players lead relatively normal lives (though that has no bearing on anything -- nearly every tyrant in the history of the world had wives and children.)
    I'll give you the fact that there are fans who don't care about the lyrics.
    I'll give you the fact that there are fans who won't be affected by them.

    But no one's shown me a shred of evidence that such lyrics are perfectly fine and don't affect the psyche of people in a negative way. All I've heard is that I'm a conspiracy theorist, that I'm way off base, that I'm letting my feelings get the better of me.

    We have examples that not a few individuals were affected by the ideas behind the lyrics, but you shrug them off as aberrations. We have studies that show people are subject to desensitization, and yet you guysl say, nope, doesn't apply. We have causal links in what happened in the Norwegian black metal scene, which was not the act of a single unstable man (Vikernes). Besides the murder, we're talking about a suicide, 50 arsons (for which several were convicted), death fetishism, death threats, etc. And let's face it, despite musical differences, both DM and BM have a lot in common (and some argue that BM is an offshoot of DM anyway), especially in regards to an extreme anti-Christian, pro-Satanic lyrical stance. Some BM bands wear corpse paint; the lead singer of Deicide (a DM band) simply burned an inverted cross into his forehead. (Not to mention he promised his own suicide at the age of 33, which of course he later retracted when the birthdate failed to materialize his corpse).

    "Kill the Christians" deserved to be banned, as does any band who advocates such a message. If it said "Kill the Jews" or "Kill the Blacks", there would've been universal outrage. But for some reason, it's not a big deal to advocate the killing of Christians.

    If you guys can't convince me, a reasonably intelligent former fan of relatively extreme metal (and I do still consider Slayer extreme) then you guys really have a battle ahead of you to convince anybody else that this stuff is just harmless blowing off steam.
    Sith, for starters, not many extreme metal fans I've known ever really go out of their ways to try to persuade or 'convince' any of the genre's most incorrigibly ignorant, bigoted critics of anything at all. We don't have a "battle" to wage, frankly; though you confess to feeling a lot readier to join the ranks of a 'crusade' against the genre, yourself. The extreme metal community, despite still being largely 'underground' actually extends far, wide and deep, and we fans don't lose any sleep or waste precious breath trying to get mainstream moronic crtics and sneering non-fans around to our side and seeing things our way.

    Thank you, though, for at least belatedly, acknowledging at least the talents and skills involved in the musicianship. And also, if only partially and grudgingly conceding that the DM/BM genres (and their numerous fans) aren't (ALL or always, in your view) exactly the dangerous, demented fiends adoring the (abhorrent music) that you started out declaring here, earlier. As for providing you with 'shreds of evidence' proving that this music and the lyrical content are NOT the diabolical threats to public decency, social stability and sanity that you obdurately claim it is-----well, sith, I cannot stress enough how the real onus is actually on YOU to furnish compelling, copious evidence (if any exist) to the contrary---since it is you that so zealously insists on making exaggerated and mostly erroneous assumptions about and allegations against Death Metal, its lyrical content, and its fandom. Overblown, crassly sensationalised past incidents involving Black Metal musicians have honestly outlived their usefulness as a long stick with which to poke and beat up on these musicians and their fans. Nobody, not even the shrillest critics of old, rake up these past incidents too often, these days. That----and the random few reported cases or crime involving extreme music fans have been shown to be outright 'aberrations', and not remotely the norm as you'd like to believe.

    Your Kill the Christian 'exhibit' is far from anything 'damning' at all against the genre or us fans. Glen Benton has said and done a lot of things over the years to stir up publicity and controversy, especially to rile and rub the noses of his and Deicide's asinine detractors. You are undoubtedly making a "fetish" of death metal lyrics in obsessing over, analysing, assailing and holding it up as an affront to public morality and civility etc.... You appear overly enamoured with the notion and have convinced your own self about the very 'literal'-ness and "vileness" of such lyrics and what you imagine are their effects on 'damaged' people that might be fans too. You suspect that the fact that I shrug off such seemingly inflammatory lyrics reveals my own "desensitization" to it all, is just flat-out nonsense premised on misguided beliefs such as your own. Truth is, I don't even read possibly half the lyrics in dm songs (though I can understand a fair amount of them)----I revel in the awesome metal musicianship and vocals, instead. Deicide has been admittedly infamous and consistent in their stridently anti-God, anti-Christianity stance. That, unsurprisingly, provokes a morally indignant backlash from variously offended folks. But it doesn't make Deicide an advocate, abettor or participant in the graphic violence or rage depicted in some of their lyrics-----nor luckily enough, have their countless fans ever been incriminated in violent acts that can be attributed to Deicide's often incendiary lyrics. You lament how 'Kill the Christian' passes muster when 'Kill....(insert other race/religions) would provoke an instant and far greater uproar. Well, without getting into overt politics (and I won't), you force me to point out that lots of other folks have reason to rightly complain about how we don't see references to 'Christian/Jewish terrorism' the way we more easily do about other religions, in our Western societies and media. I digress there. The banning of Kill the Christian was the knee-jerk reaction of the hypocrites and asshats that often drive a lot of the social commentary in the mainstream media and political circles. The banning was also futile and counter-productive. It gave Deicide a smash 'hit-single' of sorts and got more fans to buy the classic Once Upon the Cross album, from which this cool song is taken. Sith, since you've been vainly railing against death metal lyrics, all this time, I gotta wonder how some of the album cover artwork and actual song titles must rile you no end, and fill your head with utter disbelief and despair.


    Look, maybe we could do this on an appropriate 'blog' and maybe even on CNN, someday, LOL.... but I'm convinced that we'd only really be talking over and past each other, in arguing this issue, any further. You'd be better off steering clear of the death metal that so dismays and outrages you, while I will undoubtedly go on passionately loving the music as I've done all these years. If you ever hear of me killing Christians or razing a Church or fucking a zombie yada yada Lol, I will grovel at your noble feet, ok...and if you ever come around to 'seeing the light' (your words) about death metal, you owe me the best booze money can buy, in your neck of the woods, alright?
    Last edited by RLP4ever; 11-19-2009, 09:01 PM.

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