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  • #76
    Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    Black Sabbath is, to me, a massive collection of ideas bookended by the two words, Black And Sabbath. In between these words we have a full spectrum of ideas reflective of both concepts, both together and separate.

    From the Pagan, Witchy motifs of the first couple of albums to the Doom and drugs of the 3rd and 4th to the Transcendent Heights of SBS and Sabotage to the reflective and mundane (I use that word illustratively, not as a judgment of the material) of TE and NSD to the High Fantasy of HH to the Swords and Sorcery of The Mob Rules to the Industrial grind and modernism of Dehumanizer, the religious overtones of Cross Purposes and the encroaching Darkness and paranoia of TDYK and the High Philosophy of 13.

    I did not mention Born Again, 7th Star, or the Martin albums except for Cross Purposes.

    Why?

    It takes two to Black Sabbath properly. Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler. These two together elevated Tony Martin's vocals to something better on the strength of the material.

    Iommi, alone, makes some bad choices. His obsession with persuing bland or Gillan Clone singers and tendency to persue a more Whitesnakian sound does serious damage to his otherwise quality riffing and composing. Also, I believe he undervalues himself as a guitarist. I find him frequently burying himself in the mix but with GB he seems more confident and together they shine and make something magical.

    GB alone is too far out there and makes bland singer choices too. The simplicity of Tony reigns in GB's lyrics and they meet in the middle, creating something more universally accessible.

    I like Eternal Idol, Headless Cross, TYR and I've even found stuff to like on Forbidden, but they are, to me a bit of an appendix to the catalogue.

    As for Born Again, with 3 original members, it qualifies by my own definition, but I just can't find the Sabbath in it. Zero the Hero and I'm out. The rest is Dark Purple.

    The name is meaningful, it says something about those who listen: We are not satisfied with the mainstream. We are not followers to be led blindly, but we are seekers, we feel and we are called to worship. The truth is not love and peace and unicorns but it is laden with deceptions, missteps, traps and sorrow. Those who truly seek it will be carrying their crosses and shouting Why hast thou forsaken me?

    That is what Black Sabbath means to me.
    I think one could accuse Iommi of hiring "Dio-clone" singers, but Gillan?

    Don't follow what you're hearing there at all.

    Also, as far as the mixing, I think the exact opposite is sometimes true. Iommi appears to have the confidence to not always feel the need to jack the guitar to levels which leave other instruments buried. But even if we accept your premise, it is somewhat flawed. The solos on Technical Ecstasy are some of Tony's very best, yet they often appear somewhat within the mix and don't ride on top of everything. Geezer was there.
    Last edited by Jeff; 10-13-2014, 01:10 PM.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

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    • #77
      Great post William The Bloody.
      Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 10-13-2014, 03:48 PM.
      "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
      "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
      ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

      Comment


      • #78
        Sometimes a person feels like he has sold his soul to the Devil, by feigning he likes certain things when he doesn't and by doing so, he feels he has compromised his integrity and honor.
        "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
        "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
        ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
          All the Dio and Ozzy bashing that has occurred on this forum, all the non acceptance of the Gillan, Hughes and Martin eras, it won't be me to taint the Sabbath name.

          I know this is just a forum and nothing else, but wouldn't it be better to respect each others preferences ?

          Black Sabbath is my favorite band, it is more than a band to me, it's something I love, cherish and respect.
          'OID', I certainly admire and respect your point-of-view and your loyalty to all things Sabbath. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the fans shouldn't bash one another for one's era preference. That's simply common sense AND common courtesy, to my thinking. However, with all the incarnations of "Sabbath" that have existed over 44 years there's bound to be fan division of some sort whether we like it or not. Rightly or wrongly, that comes with the territory of music fandom. We as fans have the ability to praise, criticize, or ignore an artist's recorded output. Frankly, I think the worst insult to an artist is to ignore them. But I digress.

          Having said that, as a longtime Black Sabbath fan like yourself, personally, I have no problems with STRONG criticisms of Sabbath when they're justified. To your comment about the "non acceptance" of the Gillan, Hughes, and Martin eras ( specifically referring to the latter two ) I find it unconcionable that Tony had no qualms with bringing in hired hands that at any point afterward could say they were in "Black Sabbath" just to make their resume look better. In my opinion, I think that's disgraceful, and it does lessen the INTEGRITY of the name BLACK SABBATH. Or at the very LEAST, it most certainly did at the time. Frankly, that kind of mentality is very difficult to "love, cherish, and respect", to quote you above. Be that as it may, YES, there were/are some SHINING ( pun intended... ) moments on those IOMMI albums that deserve to be recognized. Yet, I understand the reasons why they're ultimately not, fairly or unfairly ( ).

          As always 'OID', great comments as usual despite our difference in opinion on this. Respect ( ).

          Comment


          • #80
            Well it least they didn't make an album with Ray Gillen.
            Upping The Irons and Defending The Faith

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
              'OID', I certainly admire and respect your point-of-view and your loyalty to all things Sabbath. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the fans shouldn't bash one another for one's era preference. That's simply common sense AND common courtesy, to my thinking. However, with all the incarnations of "Sabbath" that have existed over 44 years there's bound to be fan division of some sort whether we like it or not. Rightly or wrongly, that comes with the territory of music fandom. We as fans have the ability to praise, criticize, or ignore an artist's recorded output. Frankly, I think the worst insult to an artist is to ignore them. But I digress.

              Having said that, as a longtime Black Sabbath fan like yourself, personally, I have no problems with STRONG criticisms of Sabbath when they're justified. To your comment about the "non acceptance" of the Gillan, Hughes, and Martin eras ( specifically referring to the latter two ) I find it unconcionable that Tony had no qualms with bringing in hired hands that at any point afterward could say they were in "Black Sabbath" just to make their resume look better. In my opinion, I think that's disgraceful, and it does lessen the INTEGRITY of the name BLACK SABBATH. Or at the very LEAST, it most certainly did at the time. Frankly, that kind of mentality is very difficult to "love, cherish, and respect", to quote you above. Be that as it may, YES, there were/are some SHINING ( pun intended... ) moments on those IOMMI albums that deserve to be recognized. Yet, I understand the reasons why they're ultimately not, fairly or unfairly ( ).

              As always 'OID', great comments as usual despite our difference in opinion on this. Respect ( ).
              Agreed. Like I've said before on this forum:
              Mccartney didn't produce the rest of his music and then try calling it The Beatles.
              Nobody I know is gonna take my rock & roll away from me.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Typhon View Post
                Agreed. Like I've said before on this forum:
                Mccartney didn't produce the rest of his music and then try calling it The Beatles.
                I feel the above comments by Sab Historian are so far from accurate , to agree with such nonsense makes me smile , but as for Paul - not a chance - that would only be for the rights of John boy , though no one can lay claim to being THE man in a band to the extent of Mr Sabbath himself aka Iommi ..... John would come the closest for The Beatles.

                God Bless my brother


                Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                All the Dio and Ozzy bashing that has occurred on this forum, all the non acceptance of the Gillan, Hughes and Martin eras, it won't be me to taint the Sabbath name.

                I know this is just a forum and nothing else, but wouldn't it be better to respect each others preferences ?

                Black Sabbath is my favorite band, it is more than a band to me, it's something I love, cherish and respect.
                Brilliant man .... kudos!!! ..... it's all music , a name to be tainted by greatness , please. Don't know how i missed such a well said post my sabbath brother!!


                @NS , Ray is friggin sensational , in many ways the most accomplished live vocalist to ever see the stage with Sabbath ..... that includes your boy toy Robbie

                ..... and ps , Ray is on record with the Sab's!!!!


                - these forums are not so much moronic as they are halirious!!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                  What is Black Sabbath to the many people that post on here?

                  Is Sabbath just a name or is it meaningful? Like is it Osbourne, Iommi, Butler and Ward in the stronger sense?

                  If anyone would like to elaborate, it would be interesting to read.
                  To me, Black Sabbath will always be my favorite band and this has remained true for 33+ years. As I have said many times, the magic created by Osbourne, Iommi, Butler, and Ward has never been matched. The heaviness, darkness, and musical brilliance appealed to me as a 13 year old and my love of their material never faded. The opportunity to enjoy 13 and two live shows on this tour has been awesome. I greatly enjoy Ozzy's solo material and some other bands, yet nothing rivals the special place held by Black Sabbath.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
                    I feel the above comments by Sab Historian are so far from accurate , to agree with such nonsense makes me smile , but as for Paul - not a chance - that would only be for the rights of John boy , though no one can lay claim to being THE man in a band to the extent of Mr Sabbath himself aka Iommi ..... John would come the closest for The Beatles.
                    Okay, Lennon didn't take the rest of his music and call it The Beatles either.
                    Nobody I know is gonna take my rock & roll away from me.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Typhon View Post
                      Okay, Lennon didn't take the rest of his music and call it The Beatles either.
                      , ya that poor bastard ..... thank the good LORD above "Iommi did!!" , Sabbath went from special to "OH" so extra special because of it , mmmmmm baby!


                      ..... "let's take a chance , on the skies that burn tonight"

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        To me Black Sabbath is a band some LP's/Era's I like better than others - they are not my favorite band & if they only had the Ozzy Era I probably wouldn't listen to them anymore - as far as the band damaging their integrity by having the different line-ups I respectfully disagree - I think the different singers/players brought new life to the band & I think the only thing that ever damaged their integrity was the first Reunion Era with Ozzy (1997 - 2005) where the band basically became a hard rock oldies machine on the road with no new music (save Scary Dreams) being played live during that time and only 2 new songs released (Psycho Man & Selling my Soul) basically a wasted decade when they could have put new material out. to me this was the worst time in the entire history of the band. I am glad they finally got a new CD out with hopefully another on the way. I would prefer them to be a working band instead of a oldies touring machine.
                        At least my hair is all mine, My teeth are my own, but everything else is on a permanent loan I'm on a low budget - Ray Davies

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Typhon View Post
                          Agreed. Like I've said before on this forum:
                          Mccartney didn't produce the rest of his music and then try calling it The Beatles.
                          Not far from it, though. He was smart enough to not even try, but he damn sure hoped everyone else would...

                          But as Doc says, there's two different playing fields here, Iommi was always (mostly) on his own directing the music, whereas though the famous "Lennon/McCartney" writing partnership was mostly in the early days, they kept bouncing things off of each others, needing to get the others approval. Noone could've kept "Beatles" going on their own, not even Lennon. That truely was an equally 4 (or two) person collaboration.

                          That being said, there's no secret i think Iommi took it way too far, esp. after Geez and Bill left...
                          Just saying, with his position in the band, he was atleast "able" to do it, unlike f.ex anyone in Beatles...
                          Last edited by Billy Underdog; 10-24-2014, 12:48 AM.
                          95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                          Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
                            , ya that poor bastard ..... thank the good LORD above "Iommi did!!" , Sabbath went from special to "OH" so extra special because of it , mmmmmm baby!


                            ..... "let's take a chance , on the skies that burn tonight"
                            Doc that would be the verse by Ray at the end, later changed for martin
                            you have turn me into a sabbath wizard

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Charlatans are many and bountiful, take heed to my warnings and be aware of those who try to sway you into believing things that aren't so, be true to yourself and what you know to be true and hold dear.

                              The world today is such a wicked place.
                              Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 10-24-2014, 04:20 PM.
                              "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                              "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                              ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by The Sabman Cometh View Post
                                To me, Black Sabbath will always be my favorite band and this has remained true for 33+ years. As I have said many times, the magic created by Osbourne, Iommi, Butler, and Ward has never been matched. The heaviness, darkness, and musical brilliance appealed to me as a 13 year old and my love of their material never faded. The opportunity to enjoy 13 and two live shows on this tour has been awesome. I greatly enjoy Ozzy's solo material and some other bands, yet nothing rivals the special place held by Black Sabbath.
                                Thanks for posting Sabman, you always post how I feel and think, great minds think alike.

                                Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
                                'OID', I certainly admire and respect your point-of-view and your loyalty to all things Sabbath. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the fans shouldn't bash one another for one's era preference. That's simply common sense AND common courtesy, to my thinking. However, with all the incarnations of "Sabbath" that have existed over 44 years there's bound to be fan division of some sort whether we like it or not. Rightly or wrongly, that comes with the territory of music fandom. We as fans have the ability to praise, criticize, or ignore an artist's recorded output. Frankly, I think the worst insult to an artist is to ignore them. But I digress.

                                Having said that, as a longtime Black Sabbath fan like yourself, personally, I have no problems with STRONG criticisms of Sabbath when they're justified. To your comment about the "non acceptance" of the Gillan, Hughes, and Martin eras ( specifically referring to the latter two ) I find it unconcionable that Tony had no qualms with bringing in hired hands that at any point afterward could say they were in "Black Sabbath" just to make their resume look better. In my opinion, I think that's disgraceful, and it does lessen the INTEGRITY of the name BLACK SABBATH. Or at the very LEAST, it most certainly did at the time. Frankly, that kind of mentality is very difficult to "love, cherish, and respect", to quote you above. Be that as it may, YES, there were/are some SHINING ( pun intended... ) moments on those IOMMI albums that deserve to be recognized. Yet, I understand the reasons why they're ultimately not, fairly or unfairly ( ).

                                As always 'OID', great comments as usual despite our difference in opinion on this. Respect ( ).
                                Thanks for posting Sab Historian, you and I are a lot alike brother, my respect to you.
                                "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                                "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                                ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                                Comment

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