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"13" or TDYK?

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  • #16
    Fear or Damaged Soul could be in a set right with HnH or Iron Man

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Towelie View Post
      I dunno... I kind of feel as if GID? is actually the perfect example of all that is wrong with 13. Even though I quite like it, it feels very blatant to me. As if Rick Rubin came into the studio with a massive boner to be producing the guys who made War Pigs, and tried his best to get them to ape that sound as much as they could. Sabbath were never ones to repeat themselves, especially in those early days, where each of those first six Ozzy albums were such a radical departure from the last.

      With 13, they are almost following a blueprint of Paranoid. Could Zeitgeist want to be Planet Caravan any harder? Loner and Pariah are going for that NIB structure. It's so read through.
      One could argue that MOR followed Paranoid's blueprint pretty closely, where "Solitude" is a take on "Planet Caravan"

      I think the idea that "13" was going to leap off of "Never Say Die" and be progressive from that point of development is a non-starter, primarily since Ward was not involved and therefore song structure would be bound to more "Modern" style beats or the drum-machine model coupled with Ozzy's reduced ability to sing and all that married to "They just don't record like that anymore" call it a lack of Dave Grohl's Fleetwood Mac board or Digital process in general...

      But I tend to blame gear itself. After Iommi decided to throw away the solid state rack unit after "Forbidden" and try to rebuild his "classic" sound... all of his custom pickups and rewired stomps and recombobulated heads and cabinets...at a certain point if you want to really recreate your classic sound you need to throw everything in the bin and go to Guitar Center and just go off-the-shelf, you know?

      It starts to be like a photographer who does too much in photoshop.

      Geezer is guilty of this too. At some point he decided he needs to really be out there in the mix, so he dials up hard on the high end of the bass so you hear every rattle and hum and it just didn't used to be like that. Without Ward to play off of, the Bass stands out more than ever and that's not what we're used to.

      Ozzy too processed and too crisp and present and the fashion of trying VERY VERY HARD not to sound double/triple tracked when in the 70's being a bit sloppy with it sounded awesome and fuller...

      Even with all that going against it, 13 survived and there's some great tracks.

      But you know, it's weird, in my head it just isn't Black Sabbath the way The X-Files movies aren't part of the series.

      In fact, I think that's maybe the most profound metaphor for the problem with 13 I've heard.

      13 is an asterisk, not an album.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
        One could argue that MOR followed Paranoid's blueprint pretty closely, where "Solitude" is a take on "Planet Caravan"

        I think the idea that "13" was going to leap off of "Never Say Die" and be progressive from that point of development is a non-starter, primarily since Ward was not involved and therefore song structure would be bound to more "Modern" style beats or the drum-machine model coupled with Ozzy's reduced ability to sing and all that married to "They just don't record like that anymore" call it a lack of Dave Grohl's Fleetwood Mac board or Digital process in general...

        But I tend to blame gear itself. After Iommi decided to throw away the solid state rack unit after "Forbidden" and try to rebuild his "classic" sound... all of his custom pickups and rewired stomps and recombobulated heads and cabinets...at a certain point if you want to really recreate your classic sound you need to throw everything in the bin and go to Guitar Center and just go off-the-shelf, you know?

        It starts to be like a photographer who does too much in photoshop.

        Geezer is guilty of this too. At some point he decided he needs to really be out there in the mix, so he dials up hard on the high end of the bass so you hear every rattle and hum and it just didn't used to be like that. Without Ward to play off of, the Bass stands out more than ever and that's not what we're used to.

        Ozzy too processed and too crisp and present and the fashion of trying VERY VERY HARD not to sound double/triple tracked when in the 70's being a bit sloppy with it sounded awesome and fuller...

        Even with all that going against it, 13 survived and there's some great tracks.

        But you know, it's weird, in my head it just isn't Black Sabbath the way The X-Files movies aren't part of the series.

        In fact, I think that's maybe the most profound metaphor for the problem with 13 I've heard.

        13 is an asterisk, not an album.
        Interesting thoughts.

        Out of curiosity, would you consider TDYK a Sabbath album?

        I know what you mean about Geezers bass. It doesn't really bother me though, but it depends what they're shooting for. Like on Dehumanizer they were clearly going for a more modern sound and Geezer does some incredible playing on that record, which he could only have dreamed of back in the Ozzy days. Technically speaking, his playing was in a different league.

        But when you're trying to recreate a classic sound, I think it's sometimes hard for a seasoned musician to show the restraint required to come up with stuff reminiscent of the material created when their technical abilities were more basic.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Towelie View Post
          Interesting thoughts.

          Out of curiosity, would you consider TDYK a Sabbath album?

          I know what you mean about Geezers bass. It doesn't really bother me though, but it depends what they're shooting for. Like on Dehumanizer they were clearly going for a more modern sound and Geezer does some incredible playing on that record, which he could only have dreamed of back in the Ozzy days. Technically speaking, his playing was in a different league.

          But when you're trying to recreate a classic sound, I think it's sometimes hard for a seasoned musician to show the restraint required to come up with stuff reminiscent of the material created when their technical abilities were more basic.
          It's funny you ask that, because I do actually think of TDYK as a Sabbath album. Why? I think it's because Dio is the underdog, and it *would've* been called Black Sabbath if not for Ozzy/$auron. Musically, it's a bit less "try hard" than 13, more In-the-pocket, more "The Boys doing their thing" and maybe (probably) a whole lot less Rick Rubin?

          I actually like Geezer's bass on 13, especially on GID? it sounds like the wrath of God. My reference to it was only to illustrate how different it is/how hard it is to be "Classic" when they've spent 50 years swimming downstream from it.

          Good call about downgrading increased abilities in order to cater to classic sound. That is a huge factor. It also speaks a bit to the musicians inability (often times) to understand why their fans even like them.

          For example: "Iron Man" is arguably the most recognizable and universally loved Riff of all time, and not just the main riff but the supporting riffs as well. Iommi knows he's the "Riffmaster" but would probably feel like he didn't turn in a full day's work if he just strung together some power chords in E. Yet, we'd probably all love it if he came up with something comparable and uncomplicated. It's what separates Early Sabbath from the "noise" (if you will) of more modern metal. But, you know, everyone said "Psycho Man" was too simplistic, so....

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          • #20
            Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
            It's funny you ask that, because I do actually think of TDYK as a Sabbath album. Why? I think it's because Dio is the underdog, and it *would've* been called Black Sabbath if not for Ozzy/$auron. Musically, it's a bit less "try hard" than 13, more In-the-pocket, more "The Boys doing their thing" and maybe (probably) a whole lot less Rick Rubin?

            I actually like Geezer's bass on 13, especially on GID? it sounds like the wrath of God. My reference to it was only to illustrate how different it is/how hard it is to be "Classic" when they've spent 50 years swimming downstream from it.

            Good call about downgrading increased abilities in order to cater to classic sound. That is a huge factor. It also speaks a bit to the musicians inability (often times) to understand why their fans even like them.

            For example: "Iron Man" is arguably the most recognizable and universally loved Riff of all time, and not just the main riff but the supporting riffs as well. Iommi knows he's the "Riffmaster" but would probably feel like he didn't turn in a full day's work if he just strung together some power chords in E. Yet, we'd probably all love it if he came up with something comparable and uncomplicated. It's what separates Early Sabbath from the "noise" (if you will) of more modern metal. But, you know, everyone said "Psycho Man" was too simplistic, so....
            Thanks for considering The Devil You Know as Sabbath, William.

            I love both albums to death, If Sabbath would've created something new, let's say something Wardesque, I think it would've been more 70's Sabbath sounding than 13.

            Have you heard Accountable Beasts? That album is so creative and dark, that leaves me thinking if Bill would've continued on 13, it would've been a 100 times better.
            "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
            "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
            ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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