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Who has to be in the band for you to accept it as Black Sabbath?

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  • Who has to be in the band for you to accept it as Black Sabbath?

    Do you accept the various line-ups which feature only Tony Iommi in terms of founding band members as legitimately Black Sabbath? I'm thinking about the band who wrote and recorded Forbidden, Headless Cross, Tyr, Seventh Star, The Eternal Idol etc?

    Is Cross Purposes more Sabbath because of Geezers return to the band than say, Forbidden?

    Nobody seemed to accept Chinese Democracy as a legit Guns N Roses record when Axl Rose was the only founding member remaining. Does Iommi have more of a claim to carry the Sabbath brand alone than Axl did with GNR? If so, why?
    Last edited by Towelie; 12-13-2019, 06:36 AM.

  • #2
    Tony Iommi
    "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
    R. Blackmore

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    • #3
      Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler and either Ozzy, RJD or Ian Gillan.

      Ted

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
        Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler and either Ozzy, RJD or Ian Gillan.

        Ted
        So the Cross Purposes lineup of Iommi, Martin and Butler doesn't count as Sabbath to you?

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        • #5
          Definitely Tony iommi, he has been the most reliable person in the band.

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          • #6
            I accept whatever Tony Iommi says is Sabbath. Unless he says The Devil You Know isn't . In that case, he's wrong. I guess Seventh Star isn't if there is one that isn't. Well, to be fair, both those albums are and aren't in different ways. But The Devil You Know totally is. I don't give a fuck! And I definitely see Cross Purposes as more of a "real" Sabbath album with Geezer, and a better one, imo. I don't know why that one isn't more people's favorite Martin.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Towelie View Post
              Do you accept the various line-ups which feature only Tony Iommi in terms of founding band members as legitimately Black Sabbath? I'm thinking about the band who wrote and recorded Forbidden, Headless Cross, Tyr, Seventh Star, The Eternal Idol etc?

              Is Cross Purposes more Sabbath because of Geezers return to the band than say, Forbidden?

              Nobody seemed to accept Chinese Democracy as a legit Guns N Roses record when Axl Rose was the only founding member remaining. Does Iommi have more of a claim to carry the Sabbath brand alone than Axl did with GNR? If so, why?

              1. To answer your first question, NO, the albums (and lineups) you mentioned above are not "legitimately" Black Sabbath to my ears. They're more credible as the Tony Iommi Experience. Still, some decent moments.

              2. Regarding Cross Purposes, NO, it's not "more Sabbath" just because Geezer played on it. It's merely Half Sabbath, with mediocre results. Quality-wise, it's nowhere near its predecessor Dehumanizer, I'll put it that way.

              3. NO, neither Iommi or Rose have "more claim" to their respective band's name just because they were the only ones left. In other words, one original member and a cast of hired hands ca$hing in on a band's name is absolutely disgraceful! Sorry, one person is not a band. That's called a solo artist.

              4. In alphabetical order (by last name), only Appice, Butler, Dio, Iommi, Osbourne, and Ward can credibly be called BLACK SABBATH---- in my opinion. Again, quality ruled the game overall with these six musicians, and it was never duplicated by the others that followed.


              **By the way, I state the above with much respect and reverence to Ian Gillan. Born Again is a solid album, however, he'll always be the voice of Deep Purple, where he ultimately belongs.**

              Hopefully I answered your questions Towelie. Respect.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
                1. To answer your first question, NO, the albums (and lineups) you mentioned above are not "legitimately" Black Sabbath to my ears. They're more credible as the Tony Iommi Experience. Still, some decent moments.

                2. Regarding Cross Purposes, NO, it's not "more Sabbath" just because Geezer played on it. It's merely Half Sabbath, with mediocre results. Quality-wise, it's nowhere near its predecessor Dehumanizer, I'll put it that way.

                3. NO, neither Iommi or Rose have "more claim" to their respective band's name just because they were the only ones left. In other words, one original member and a cast of hired hands ca$hing in on a band's name is absolutely disgraceful! Sorry, one person is not a band. That's called a solo artist.

                4. In alphabetical order (by last name), only Appice, Butler, Dio, Iommi, Osbourne, and Ward can credibly be called BLACK SABBATH---- in my opinion. Again, quality ruled the game overall with these six musicians, and it was never duplicated by the others that followed.


                **By the way, I state the above with much respect and reverence to Ian Gillan. Born Again is a solid album, however, he'll always be the voice of Deep Purple, where he ultimately belongs.**

                Hopefully I answered your questions Towelie. Respect.
                If you think that way then one can easily say Sabbath is only Ozzy, Geezer, Ward, Iommi. (YoY)
                "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                  If you think that way then one can easily say Sabbath is only Ozzy, Geezer, Ward, Iommi. (YoY)
                  Fair enough OID. Truth be told, that isn't hard to understand either. Frankly, I can't fault any fan who feels that way, particularly the ones who were lucky enough to see THE REAL DEAL in the 70s.

                  However, I got into both the Ozzy and Dio eras (more or less) simultaneously in the mid-80s. As a result, I felt I had nothing to judge them against. I enjoyed both equally, and to this day, I still refer to each as the REAL Black Sabbath(s). Go figure. ...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
                    Fair enough OID. Truth be told, that isn't hard to understand either. Frankly, I can't fault any fan who feels that way, particularly the ones who were lucky enough to see THE REAL DEAL in the 70s.

                    However, I got into both the Ozzy and Dio eras (more or less) simultaneously in the mid-80s. As a result, I felt I had nothing to judge them against. I enjoyed both equally, and to this day, I still refer to each as the REAL Black Sabbath(s). Go figure. ...
                    And it is all Sabbath Sab Historian, love all the eras, Ozzy my favorite era.
                    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Towelie View Post
                      So the Cross Purposes lineup of Iommi, Martin and Butler doesn't count as Sabbath to you?
                      No it doesn't. I wish I could consider it, but Martin was on the Sabbath album which led WB to end the Group's recording contract afterward (Eternal Idol), he started in the Group copying RJD vocally and musically the albums he was on didn't uphold Sabbath's legacy.

                      Ted

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                      • #12
                        When it's both Tony and Geezer, that's legit for me.

                        It's not until Seventh Star and onwards that the credibility often wasn't there in my opinion.
                        I see the first run of the band as the Ozzy era through to when Ian, Geezer and Bill (again) split after Born Again.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                          No it doesn't. I wish I could consider it, but Martin was on the Sabbath album which led WB to end the Group's recording contract afterward (Eternal Idol), he started in the Group copying RJD vocally and musically the albums he was on didn't uphold Sabbath's legacy.

                          Ted
                          Absolutely fair comment Ted.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
                            Absolutely fair comment Ted.
                            Thank you.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Towelie View Post
                              Do you accept the various line-ups which feature only Tony Iommi in terms of founding band members as legitimately Black Sabbath? I'm thinking about the band who wrote and recorded Forbidden, Headless Cross, Tyr, Seventh Star, The Eternal Idol etc?

                              Is Cross Purposes more Sabbath because of Geezers return to the band than say, Forbidden?

                              Nobody seemed to accept Chinese Democracy as a legit Guns N Roses record when Axl Rose was the only founding member remaining. Does Iommi have more of a claim to carry the Sabbath brand alone than Axl did with GNR? If so, why?
                              My good brother opinions are like "assholes" , everyone's got one ,, block out the noise and focus on the facts -


                              Axl is trying to build a "legacy" ,, IOMMI is a legacy.


                              Founding members of a band are just that , founding members - When they go they go - "Fly By Night" thro "Clockwork Angels" are every bit a Rush album as the album "Rush" , even with Rutsey gone.


                              Paranoid is every bit a Sabbath album as Cross Purposes , and deserves to be.


                              Black Sabbath featuring Tony Iommi is an AKA (One in the same).


                              The Devil You Know - vs one you don't , the answer is in the statement , "The Devil WE Know" is Black Sabbath , which becomes one in the same , ie) AKA , with the definition - IOMMI = THE founding member , featuring member , The Devil You Know.


                              "War Pigs" , "Heaven n Hell" , "Zero The Hero" , "Seventh Star" , "Headless Cross" - have ALL appeared on BLACK SABBATH Tribute albums ,, they ALL have ONLY ONE THING in common - The Devil You Know , AKA , featuring , THE founding member - IOMMI.


                              Imagine a TRIBUTE album doing so well that they release a second and third version , then imagine that same tribute album is actually a GOLD RECORD because it has sold so well , the pubic is smart ..... now IMAGINE THAT SAME tribute album is a TRIBUTE to BLACK SABBATH - and has all various artists on it paying respect to that one single "legacy" , and NOW imagine that SAME album having Ozzy , Geezer and Bill on it (as it should , no one appears on their own tribute album rite? , that would be silly , because they also must pay respect to their favorite artist) ,,, those albums exist , and are called "Nativity In Black" , paying tribute to the man - MR. BLACK SABBATH himself , aka IOMMI.


                              Ya 27 impeccable Sabbath studio releases later and Iommi is still Sabbath , if he plays it - well then it's Sabbath , if your lucky enough to appear with him (Geezer , Ozzy , Deborah Anne Dyer , Simon Wright) well then "for a moment" your part of HIS legacy , and because of that - your part of BLACK SABBATH.


                              God Bless Sabbath maniacs , time to go listen to some Sabbath , I'm thinking one of their absolute most brilliant masterpieces - "GOD REST YE MERRY GENTLEMEN"!

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