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Bill not co-writer for “Hot Line” and “Keep It Warm” ?

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  • Bill not co-writer for “Hot Line” and “Keep It Warm” ?

    Some versions of Born Again say “Hot Line” and “Keep It Warm” were written by Geezer, Ian, and Tony, and the other songs were written by Bill, Geezer, Ian, and Tony.

    Has anyone heard why Bill wasn't credited as co-writer for those two songs?

    I have two theories: either the songs were already fully-formed by the time Bill arrived (and Malcom Cope's drum parts weren't changed much) or it was some odd contractual thing where Bill wasn't given credit on all the songs.

  • #2
    I've noticed that too and it's interesting that it's the last 2 songs on the album that Bill doesn't receive a writing credit on. Coincidence?

    Ted

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    • #3
      As far as I know, Keep It Warm is written by Gillan and it is dedicated to his wife. I guess that this is the reason why Bill Ward doesn't have a writing credit for these two songs....

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      • #4
        It could be a misprint. On my old copy of Master of Reality, After Forever, Orchid, and Embryo were credited solely to Tony Iommi in the liner notes, but in reality all four members shared equal writing credit on all three tracks (and all tracks they released in the 70s....Except Evil Woman and Warning, of course).
        Monty Python and the Holy Grail pic extravaganza! http://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31523

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        • #5
          Originally posted by nolanstolz View Post
          Some versions of Born Again say “Hot Line” and “Keep It Warm” were written by Geezer, Ian, and Tony, and the other songs were written by Bill, Geezer, Ian, and Tony.

          Has anyone heard why Bill wasn't credited as co-writer for those two songs?

          I have two theories: either the songs were already fully-formed by the time Bill arrived (and Malcom Cope's drum parts weren't changed much) or it was some odd contractual thing where Bill wasn't given credit on all the songs.
          Good to see you back Nolanstolz, this is very interesting as Bill is a founding member and I thought they all shared writing credits back then.
          "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
          "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
          ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
            Good to see you back Nolanstolz, this is very interesting as Bill is a founding member and I thought they all shared writing credits back then.
            That might have changed by the time of 'Born Again' since contractual agreements might have differed since Bill had left the band at one point. I'm not sure how Sabbath did it, but sometimes band members that leave and rejoin later do so under different contractual terms.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by SweetSymptom View Post
              That might have changed by the time of 'Born Again' since contractual agreements might have differed since Bill had left the band at one point. I'm not sure how Sabbath did it, but sometimes band members that leave and rejoin later do so under different contractual terms.
              That would make sense.
              "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
              "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
              ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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              • #8
                Quote Originally Posted by SweetSymptom
                I'm not sure how Sabbath did it, but sometimes band members that leave and rejoin later do so under different contractual terms.

                Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                That would make sense.
                That's true, and it happens pretty frequently in the rock/music world. An example would be KISS, wherein Ace Frehley and Peter Criss re-joined for recording and touring purposes but were entitled to receive a lot less money, etc. than Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons as the latter 2 had been in the band uninterrupted since it's inception.

                In Bill Ward's case, it was the same or at least a somewhat similar situation, which could very well explain the BA songwriting credits situation.

                Ted
                Last edited by Ted Sallis; 03-09-2019, 02:51 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                  Quote Originally Posted by SweetSymptom
                  I'm not sure how Sabbath did it, but sometimes band members that leave and rejoin later do so under different contractual terms.



                  That's true, and it happens pretty frequently in the rock/music world. An example would be KISS, wherein Ace Frehley and Peter Criss re-joined for recording and touring purposes but were entitled to receive a lot less money, etc. than Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons as the latter 2 had been in the band uninterrupted since it's inception.

                  In Bill Ward's case, it was the same or at least a somewhat similar situation, which could very well explain the BA songwriting credits situation.

                  Ted
                  Very true, Ted. And in Sabbath's case, we see this repeated in later years to some degree.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                    Quote Originally Posted by SweetSymptom
                    I'm not sure how Sabbath did it, but sometimes band members that leave and rejoin later do so under different contractual terms.



                    That's true, and it happens pretty frequently in the rock/music world. An example would be KISS, wherein Ace Frehley and Peter Criss re-joined for recording and touring purposes but were entitled to receive a lot less money, etc. than Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons as the latter 2 had been in the band uninterrupted since it's inception.

                    In Bill Ward's case, it was the same or at least a somewhat similar situation, which could very well explain the BA songwriting credits situation.

                    Ted
                    I guess like any other job once you leave and if the company hires you back, it's under different terms, as far as pay rate and benefits.
                    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                      I guess like any other job once you leave and if the company hires you back, it's under different terms, as far as pay rate and benefits.
                      Pretty much, unless it's a rare case where the original agreement is resumed.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SweetSymptom View Post
                        Pretty much, unless it's a rare case where the original agreement is resumed.
                        And usually that's if you work for a place that has a Union, and they have to abide by the Union contract, I've been through it so I would know, non-Union places can basically give you what they want, when they want.
                        "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                        "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                        ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the kind reply, and thanks for not being defensive and realizing I was trying to be helpful and not be a smarta$$.
                          Speed TestScrabble Word FinderSolitaire
                          No, you didn’t word that wrong, I’ve been seeing/reading that all over the place online and in some books on Sabbath the past couple years, and it is rubbish, lol.
                          Last edited by maxsava0902; 03-18-2020, 06:11 PM.

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