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Could Holy Diver have been a Black Sabbath song/album?

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  • Could Holy Diver have been a Black Sabbath song/album?

    If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
    I make the devil laugh and angels wail. Forever I will reside beyond the pale.

  • #2
    Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
    If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
    Quite possible the song might have been a Sabbath tune. The riff would have been the same. Ronnie played guitar and he wrote that riff, if not the whole song.

    The real question is on the follow up to Mob Rules, would Ronnie have sung Trashed?
    The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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    • #3
      I've always thought it would have been interesting to have had Tony and Geezer playing on the Holy Diver album, that is, to have had Holy Diver as the third Dio-Sabbath era album. As good as Holy Diver is, it might have even been better as a Sabbath album.

      ---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

      Originally posted by devstorm View Post
      Quite possible the song might have been a Sabbath tune. The riff would have been the same. Ronnie played guitar and he wrote that riff, if not the whole song.

      The real question is on the follow up to Mob Rules, would Ronnie have sung Trashed?
      Yeah, or Digital Bitch. I just can't hear Ronnie singing, "She's so rich, the digital bitch (insert Gillan's diabolical scream/roar)."

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      • #4
        I'm pretty sure that the Holy Diver album was actually part of the disintegration of the band's relationship. I remember reading an interview with Tony back after Ronnie left the first time, and he complained that Ronnie kept throwing the "solo" album in his and Geezer's faces (Tony's actual words). His response was "What, isn't Sabbath big enough for you?"

        Sort of related, I've always wondered why Turn Up the Night was too difficult to play live, but Stand Up and Shout wasn't.
        "But I don't want to go among mad people."
        "Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
        "How do you know I'm mad?"
        "You must be or you wouldn't have come here."

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        • #5
          absolutely not, it's a completely different style fo music and of composing. Dio came up with the vocal line, then the bass and drums were added, then finally the guitars were put in place.

          Have you ever heard Vivian Campbell play the riff of Heaven and Hell? It does not sound convincing, it's not his thing at all. I bet we'd have the same feeling if Tony Iommi went insane and tried to play Holy Diver. He would add a weight and heaviness that do not match the song at all.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nunoni View Post
            ll? It does not sound convincing, it's not his thing at all. I bet we'd have the same feeling if Tony Iommi went insane and tried to play Holy Diver. He would add a weight and heaviness that do not match the song at all.

            Not saying it would work, but would be fun to listen to.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by devstorm View Post
              Quite possible the song might have been a Sabbath tune. The riff would have been the same. Ronnie played guitar and he wrote that riff, if not the whole song.

              The real question is on the follow up to Mob Rules, would Ronnie have sung Trashed?
              As long as the riff from Zero The Hero was used on the (hypothetical) Mob Rules follow up I would be happy. Not to trash on Born Again, but I would've rather the album had been with Dio. There just wasn't enough Sabbath albums with Dio...
              I make the devil laugh and angels wail. Forever I will reside beyond the pale.

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              • #8
                I think the song Holy Diver would've been a cool Sabbath tune. It's an Iommi style riff even though it's not played with the same guitar tuning. But none of this would've been a Sabbath album. All this stuff musically was pretty much Ronnie's baby. It wouldn't have been allowed in Sabbath where every member had writting credits and were allowed to have their input on the song writting.
                Nobody will ever let you know
                When you ask the reason why
                They just tell you that you're on your own
                Fill your head all full of lies

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                • #9
                  I agree that this album couldn't have been a Sabbath album. It has Sabbathy elements, as well as Rainbowish too, but Dio was a band of it's own with their unique style.

                  Originally posted by Sabbathfan78 View Post
                  I think the song Holy Diver would've been a cool Sabbath tune. It's an Iommi style riff even though it's not played with the same guitar tuning. But none of this would've been a Sabbath album. All this stuff musically was pretty much Ronnie's baby. It wouldn't have been allowed in Sabbath where every member had writting credits and were allowed to have their input on the song writting.
                  Of course RJD had the greatest input in the material, but also Bain and Campbell were an essential part of the songwriting, especially Bain. Whenever Dio and Bain collaborated the input was extremely good for my ears (though Dio rocked most of the time without Bain too).

                  And I'd like to add Shame on The Night too. I think it would make a great Sabbath tune even without any finetuning.
                  "The consequence of conscience/Is that you'll be left somewhere/Swinging in the air"-Ronnie James Dio (1942-2010) R.I.P. King Of Metal
                  "Just take a look around you what do you see/Pain, suffering, and misery/It's not the way that the world was planned/It's a pity you don't understand" - Geezer Butler
                  "If god is in heaven/How can this happen here" - Phil Lynott (1949-1986)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Rules Mob View Post
                    I'm pretty sure that the Holy Diver album was actually part of the disintegration of the band's relationship. I remember reading an interview with Tony back after Ronnie left the first time, and he complained that Ronnie kept throwing the "solo" album in his and Geezer's faces (Tony's actual words). His response was "What, isn't Sabbath big enough for you?"
                    I remember an interview right after Holy Diver came out where Dio claimed he had started writing & planning a solo album before even joining Sabbath. Also after Ronnies death I heard a story on Eddie Trunks show where Dio was apparantly talking of a solo album while on the Mob Rules tour. So it's entirely possible that Ronnie held the HD material for his own thing.

                    Originally posted by Sabbathfan78 View Post
                    It wouldn't have been allowed in Sabbath where every member had writting credits and were allowed to have their input on the song writting.
                    What do you base this statement on?

                    It's been pretty well documented that Ronnie helped with riffs for Sabbath material.

                    Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
                    As long as the riff from Zero The Hero was used on the (hypothetical) Mob Rules follow up I would be happy. Not to trash on Born Again, but I would've rather the album had been with Dio. There just wasn't enough Sabbath albums with Dio...
                    That riff is too great for anyone to pass up on. It would have been there for sure. And thats one B.A. track I have no trouble imagining Ronnie sing. If anything he probably would have done more with the melodies. Not that Ian did a bad job.
                    The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by devstorm View Post
                      What do you base this statement on?

                      It's been pretty well documented that Ronnie helped with riffs for Sabbath material.
                      The only thing I base that on is that for the most part, up until that point, the songs were credited to all four members of Sabbath. Sure, there were some songs that were written individually but overall it was a group effort song writting wise. I don't think that Iommi and Geezer would've been too keen on someone else coming up with a song that was complete musically without their input. I thought one of the main reasons Ronnie left was because his song ideas that would eventually become the Holy Diver album were being denied by the rest of the band. He also wanted more say in what the band was doing as well and Tony and Geezer wouldn't have that. We will never know for sure but those are the most common stories i've heard about Ronnie's departure from the band.

                      Also, I wasn't aware that Dio helped out with the riffs while he was in Sabbath. Do you know what songs he helped out on?
                      Nobody will ever let you know
                      When you ask the reason why
                      They just tell you that you're on your own
                      Fill your head all full of lies

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sabbathfan78 View Post
                        The only thing I base that on is that for the most part, up until that point, the songs were credited to all four members of Sabbath. Sure, there were some songs that were written individually but overall it was a group effort song writting wise. I don't think that Iommi and Geezer would've been too keen on someone else coming up with a song that was complete musically without their input. I thought one of the main reasons Ronnie left was because his song ideas that would eventually become the Holy Diver album were being denied by the rest of the band. He also wanted more say in what the band was doing as well and Tony and Geezer wouldn't have that. We will never know for sure but those are the most common stories i've heard about Ronnie's departure from the band.

                        Also, I wasn't aware that Dio helped out with the riffs while he was in Sabbath. Do you know what songs he helped out on?
                        Specific songs weren't ever mentioned, that I know of. Iommi and Butler both have mentioned in various interviews that Ronnie contributed riffs for all the projects with Sabbath. So that could range from an opening riff to something more like just a chord
                        progression for a pre chorus or a bridge part to compliment a vocal melody he had. Or it could be a whole song start to end.
                        The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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                        • #13
                          It is well know that Dio came up with some guitar riffs and Geezer also but i doubt the end result of those riffs that they came up with sound in anyway like a riff played by iommi and only the way iommi can play riff..

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                          • #14
                            Holy Diver is a great record, but I highly doubt the songs we know (and love) would be the same had Iommi and Butler been involved. Maybe we would know the lyrics, but the music would not be the same.

                            I like Dio's solo work very much, as well as his time in Rainbow and Elf. His time in Sabbath was magical, and the songs that Iommi, Dio and Butler put out were some of the greatest rock songs ever written. Dio has an incredible "sense" about his songwriting, but it is magnified 1000 times when working with Tony & Geezer.
                            "I can honestly say itís truly been an honor to play at his side for all these years, his music will live on forever." ~ Tony Iommi (Speaking of Ronnie James Dio)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by H&H View Post
                              Holy Diver is a great record, but I highly doubt the songs we know (and love) would be the same had Iommi and Butler been involved. Maybe we would know the lyrics, but the music would not be the same.

                              I like Dio's solo work very much, as well as his time in Rainbow and Elf. His time in Sabbath was magical, and the songs that Iommi, Dio and Butler put out were some of the greatest rock songs ever written. Dio has an incredible "sense" about his songwriting, but it is magnified 1000 times when working with Tony & Geezer.
                              During the Mob Rules tour, Ronnie was telling interviewers that he was putting out a solo record, but was staying in Black Sabbath, and mentioned other bands as an example of how a singer could pull both off (Yes? Kiss? Pink Floyd? I forget the bands he mentioned). After the break-up before Live Evil came out, there was mention from the Sabbath camp that they didn't like that Ronnie was "using his best stuff" for his solo album, essentially not putting Sabbath first. I know the mixing sessions for Live Evil gets the most credit for breaking them up, but Ronnie's impending solo venture was already a thorn in their sides. I don't think Tony and Geezer were very high on the idea of Ronnie recording and touring on his own while still in Black Sabbath at that time. Based on how well Holy Diver was received, I wonder if Ronnie would have left anyway once the album came out.
                              Damian
                              Super Moderator
                              Black-Sabbath.com

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