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Could Holy Diver have been a Black Sabbath song/album?

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  • #16
    alot of conjecture regarding the break up of the Mob Rules lineup wasn't the intention of this thread.

    Do I think Holy Diver would have been a good Sabbath album, not really. However, I do think Magica would have been one of the best albums ever if it had been a sabbath album vs Dio album. I was always hoping beyond hope that Ronnie would have let Heaven and Hell record Magica 2 and 3 if he felt so compelled to do that project and perhaps even rerecord the first Magica.

    Alas, it was not meant to be, but I do still dream of it. If these memorial concerts do come off, I would love for Iommi and Geezer to play some songs from Magica...that would be so great.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mike146 View Post
      alot of conjecture regarding the break up of the Mob Rules lineup wasn't the intention of this thread.

      Do I think Holy Diver would have been a good Sabbath album, not really. However, I do think Magica would have been one of the best albums ever if it had been a sabbath album vs Dio album. I was always hoping beyond hope that Ronnie would have let Heaven and Hell record Magica 2 and 3 if he felt so compelled to do that project and perhaps even rerecord the first Magica.

      Alas, it was not meant to be, but I do still dream of it. If these memorial concerts do come off, I would love for Iommi and Geezer to play some songs from Magica...that would be so great.
      The conjecture is fine. Cwilder86 references the breakup in his original post. You are not the author, if his "intention" was not followed then let him voice his own displeasure, the breakup was at the exact time that Holy Diver was being worked on, which plays right into how plausible releasing it as a Sabbath track may or may not be.

      Magica 2, 27 years later, and "letting" Heaven and Hell record it, is most definitely not even close. But you can start a new topic on it if you wish. If you do, please address why you think that Ronnie had that kind oif control over Tony and Geezer to "let" them complete his personal solo trilogy.
      Last edited by Damian; 06-14-2010, 06:43 AM.
      Damian
      Super Moderator
      Black-Sabbath.com

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      • #18
        I saw a video interview where they explained briefly how Dio's and Iommi's writing relationship worked. They said that most of the time songs where created with either Tony or Ronnie coming up with a riff and then proceeded to working on a chorus. I always took that as meaning songs started with an Iommi guitar riff or Dio vocal riff/melody, but its always possible that Dio contributed some writing towards some guitar riffs as well.

        Also saw somewhere where it was said that Dio would go home pick up his guitar and make whatever riff work with his vocals and vice versa. So again it would be no surprise. Country Girl for instance is a song that comes to mind that Dio probably had large input overall, he said it was written about his wife after all.

        Dio could play many different instruments including the piano, guitar, bass, french horn, trumpet, and probably some more so it would be no surprise had that been the case.

        However, I have no idea if Holy Diver would have ended up as Sabbath material, it would be pure conjecture for me to say otherwise. Could it have worked, absolutely, its an Iommi'esque kind of riff, and Sabbath like imagery although that could be said for the vast majority of riffs in this vast metal world.
        "I don't care which god you follow, whose promises you swallow" - Ronnie James Dio
        http://www.reverbnation.com/breakingintoheaven?#!
        http://www.facebook.com/pages/Breaki...916616&ref=sgm

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        • #19
          Holy Diver (the album) is closer to the same train of thought drawn by H&H and Mob Rules than Born again was. There are parts of it that went a different way too, though. "Holy Diver" (the song) seems cut from the same cloth as "Heaven and Hell" (the song), so I could imagine it or elements of it as a Sabbath song. Maybe "Stand up and Shout", "Don't Talk to Strangers", and "Shame on the Night" too... but not much else. But hey that's like half an album right there LOL. Interesting train of conversation here.

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          • #20
            Fondula is correct, IMO. It's also possible that most of Strange Highways could have been Sabbath material too.

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            • #21
              Outside of a few tracks, I was *not* a fan of Dio (the band) until Magica.

              I have said many times, Magica is the best Sabbath album that Sabbath never did.

              All the best,
              PAULIE
              http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UoulA6r90n...ill%2Bward.JPG

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              • #22
                Dio's early solo career sounds to me as a hybrid of his Rainbow and Sabbath days. So while there is definite Sabbath elements there there is also enough to move away from it. Shame On the Night really leans more to the Sabbath side of things in my opinion more than anything else on the album.

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                • #23
                  I honestly don't think that either the Holy Diver album or the title track itself would sit too well with being a (Dio)-Sabbath tune and/or album. If anything, HD was a little closer to being Rainbow-ish, rather than Sabbath, in a few ways. But overall, the Holy Diver album had a highly individualistic Dio-solo sound and vibe to it; not Sabbath, not Rainbow, not anything else but Ronnie James Dio and his rocking mates doing their own thing. And frankly, I liked the album far more than either Heaven and Hell or Dehumanizer, for instance. I reckon, Holy Diver (the song) would comfortably belong in something like Rainbow Rising or Long Live Rock & Roll, but the DIO band's blockbuster debut album itself is just very different and distinct, and clearly RJD's separate musical sphere. It still sounds and feels that way to me.

                  I always thought something like David Lee Roth's sensational solo debut Eat 'Em & Smile would have easily made a seventh classic Van Halen album. But not Dio's Holy Diver another Dio-Sabbath album. Besides, like I said, HD was too different AND much better than two of Dio's Sabbath albums.
                  Last edited by RLP4ever; 06-15-2010, 04:59 AM.
                  "Actors really are the scum of the earth. Their behavior makes arrogant, overpaid rock stars appear positively noble' - Buzz Osborne

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Damian View Post
                    The conjecture is fine. Cwilder86 references the breakup in his original post. You are not the author, if his "intention" was not followed then let him voice his own displeasure, the breakup was at the exact time that Holy Diver was being worked on, which plays right into how plausible releasing it as a Sabbath track may or may not be.

                    Magica 2, 27 years later, and "letting" Heaven and Hell record it, is most definitely not even close. But you can start a new topic on it if you wish. If you do, please address why you think that Ronnie had that kind oif control over Tony and Geezer to "let" them complete his personal solo trilogy.
                    You are correct Damian, sorry for venting my frustration in an un positive way.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mike146 View Post
                      You are correct Damian, sorry for venting my frustration in an un positive way.
                      No worries, dude.
                      Damian
                      Super Moderator
                      Black-Sabbath.com

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by fondula View Post
                        "Holy Diver" (the song) seems cut from the same cloth as "Heaven and Hell" (the song), so I could imagine it or elements of it as a Sabbath song.
                        I agree with this as well. The two songs definitely feel related to me. I'd always hoped that Dio would convince Tony and Geezer to play that song live, so we could hear what that version would've sounded like, but I suppose Dio wanted to keep those worlds separate. Dehumanizer was always disappointing to me in large part because I wanted it to sound like the follow-up to Mob Rules, and it totally didn't. To me, half of Holy Diver and half of Born Again would've made the follow-up, which would've been brilliant. Then again, we would've lost the song "Born Again" (which Gillan really puts his stamp upon) and that would've been a shame.

                        Personally, I never understood Iommi's aversion to doing solo-projects while Sabbath was still an entity. That would've saved the original lineup (at least for a bit longer) and it would've saved the Dio lineup (for a bit longer). While Dio was working on his solo project, there's no reason Tony and Geezer couldn't have done the same, in fact, they could still have gotten Gillan for the one-off "supergroup" it was meant to be, and done Born Again. And then after everyone toured, the Dio-lineup could've reformed. Oh well, idealism is only for an ideal world, I guess.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by fondula View Post
                          Holy Diver (the album) is closer to the same train of thought drawn by H&H and Mob Rules than Born again was. There are parts of it that went a different way too, though. "Holy Diver" (the song) seems cut from the same cloth as "Heaven and Hell" (the song), so I could imagine it or elements of it as a Sabbath song. Maybe "Stand up and Shout", "Don't Talk to Strangers", and "Shame on the Night" too... but not much else. But hey that's like half an album right there LOL. Interesting train of conversation here.
                          I agree with most of this musicwise, but to me the lyrics on Stand Up And Shout just don't sound like Sabbath lyrics so much,Shame On The Night is def. Sab,and Don't Talk has that somber melancholic lyrical feel as well.
                          Something's calling me back,Like a light in the black
                          Yes, I'm ready to go,I'm coming home, home, yeah
                          I've got my way back home,To the sky

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                          • #28
                            I always thought Holy Diver album as a mix between Rainbow and Sabbath...mixing the best sides of both bands...Holy Diver is very Heaven And Hell like, with a simple powerful riff, Don't Talk To Strangers with it's soft intro and overall melancholy is in the same vain as Children Of The Sea...Stand Up And Shout is cleary in the same vain with Long Live Rock 'n Roll...Rainbow In The Dark is thematically close to Lonely Is The Word although musically far from it. Shame On The Night is a mixture of both bands.

                            Just mentioning few similarities...Viv Campbell was closer to Ritche as a player than Tony...And his soloing was never as powerful and doomy as Tony's but more in the happier vain like Ritchies....

                            But I would imagine Holy Diver (the song) could have easily been the title track of Sabbath's next album if Ronnie had stayed...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sabbath Steve View Post
                              I agree with most of this musicwise, but to me the lyrics on Stand Up And Shout just don't sound like Sabbath lyrics so much,Shame On The Night is def. Sab,and Don't Talk has that somber melancholic lyrical feel as well.
                              Look at "Turn up the Night"... it's kind of lyrically in the same vein as "Stand up and Shout".

                              Holy Diver (the album) is very much the next page for Dio (the man). There are similarities to what preceeded it but it also moved forward with its own personality, leveraging the personalities of the new personnel (most notably Vivian Campbell). "Rainbow in the Dark" and "Invisible", for example, are definitely not Sabbath songs.

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                              • #30
                                Yes, the song Holy Diver could have been a Sabbath song. I wonder what the Born Again album (if it was called 'born' again' with Dio) would have been like. I admit I can easily imagine Ronnie singing Zero The Hero...but that's about it! Hmmm, maybe Disturbing The Priest too?

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