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Could Holy Diver have been a Black Sabbath song/album?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Benjo View Post
    Yes, the song Holy Diver could have been a Sabbath song. I wonder what the Born Again album (if it was called 'born' again' with Dio) would have been like. I admit I can easily imagine Ronnie singing Zero The Hero...but that's about it! Hmmm, maybe Disturbing The Priest too?
    I could definitely imagine Ronnie singing "Trashed" too. With other lyrics, of course, because I don't think Dio would have sung a song about how he got drunk and destroyed Bill Ward's car
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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    • #32
      Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
      I agree with this as well. The two songs definitely feel related to me. I'd always hoped that Dio would convince Tony and Geezer to play that song live, so we could hear what that version would've sounded like, but I suppose Dio wanted to keep those worlds separate. Dehumanizer was always disappointing to me in large part because I wanted it to sound like the follow-up to Mob Rules, and it totally didn't. To me, half of Holy Diver and half of Born Again would've made the follow-up, which would've been brilliant. Then again, we would've lost the song "Born Again" (which Gillan really puts his stamp upon) and that would've been a shame.

      Personally, I never understood Iommi's aversion to doing solo-projects while Sabbath was still an entity. That would've saved the original lineup (at least for a bit longer) and it would've saved the Dio lineup (for a bit longer). While Dio was working on his solo project, there's no reason Tony and Geezer couldn't have done the same, in fact, they could still have gotten Gillan for the one-off "supergroup" it was meant to be, and done Born Again. And then after everyone toured, the Dio-lineup could've reformed. Oh well, idealism is only for an ideal world, I guess.
      I always lament about not having more Dio Sabbath but at the same time its hard to imagine life without Born Again.
      The time it is coming when all life will end,
      With doomsday approaching to hell we'll descend.
      Religion won't save me, the damage is done.
      The future has ended before it's begun.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Hell_Awaits View Post
        I always lament about not having more Dio Sabbath but at the same time its hard to imagine life without Born Again.
        That sounds about right to me. Born Again, for me, is special if not great. It is one of those things where I keep going back to it because it's unique and could only have happened in the way that it did. It is almost a spit in the face of the previous two albums, stylistically speaking. I can't imagine ANY of the songs having been created by the previous team. Holy Diver had a lot more in common with H&H and MR than Born Again did. There is a lot of dissonance and "anarchy" on Born Again which probably wouldn't have happened with Mr. Dio around.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
          If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
          You can't "vastly improve" on the greatness that is Holy Diver, sorry. That album is consistently listed as one of the greatest heavy metal record of all time and was extremely influential to many.

          And I'm an advocate of Iommi as the greatest guitarist to ever breathe but I say it lightly. I hate comparisons and I think they are usually unhelpful because they are speculative, based in imaginary contexts.

          Vivian Campbell's work on early Dio records is widely worshiped as some of the best to ever grace the genre. It's extremely memorable and reminiscent of classic rock and early metal while being infused with the wild energy of the early 80s. His guitar playing has a very distinct signature and nobody else would have come up with better leads at that time.

          A better question is: "would Holy Diver have been the same without Dio's stint in Sabbath". The answer is an obvious "no". Ronnie was a special talent and part of that is to synthesize past experiences and what you learn and using your own creativity. The Dio line-up, starting with Ronnie, deserves full credits for those phenomenal first few records and Iommi and Geezer deserve a big thanks for laying some of the groundwork that made it possible to happen.
          Riffs
          ________

          If I had to make a list, I'd write Cozy Powell somewhere on there and then 43,084 drummers later, Vinnie Appice - hipster doofus

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          • #35
            Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
            If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
            No, but Lost Highways and Angry Machines were definitely brone crushing metal albums that could have aided from Iommi behind the guitar. They both had Sabbath written all over them. BRUTALLY heavy!!

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            • #36
              ^You mean Strange Highways, right?^

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              • #37
                Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
                If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.

                It was a Black Sabbath tune. Dio wrote that while he was still in Sabbath. The first time I heard it I remember telling my friend that sounds alot like Black Sabbath. I think it has a touch of Mob Rules sound to it. It wouldn't surprise me if the band had worked on it for their next album.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Charger View Post
                  ^You mean Strange Highways, right?^
                  Amen. SUCH a heavy album.


                  Back to the question, which I personally don't understand. Could it have been a Sab song/album. Maybe, but if it was it would have been heavier, darker and had better production values (unless the same mastermind behind the Born Again mix was at the helm here also.)

                  I suppose my answer is No, it it couldn't have been a Black Sabbath album because it IS a Dio release. If Ronnie would have stayed, then obviously things would have been different. But I still question how many ideas that became songs for DIO, would have survived intact if he were part of Black Sabbath. Tony and Geezer have their own quality control standards in addition to RJD. As the leader of his own group, he may not have been creatively challenged in a way that the Birmingham Boys would have subjected him to. (Hate ending on a preposition.)
                  The blind men shout "Let the creatures out, we'll show the unbelievers."
                  The napalm screams of human flames, of a prime time Belsen feast ... yeah!
                  As the reasons for the carnage cut their meat and lick the gravy.
                  We oil the jaws of the war machine and feed it with our babies.

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