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Could Holy Diver have been a Black Sabbath song/album?

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  • IommiRules
    replied
    Originally posted by Charger View Post
    ^You mean Strange Highways, right?^
    Amen. SUCH a heavy album.


    Back to the question, which I personally don't understand. Could it have been a Sab song/album. Maybe, but if it was it would have been heavier, darker and had better production values (unless the same mastermind behind the Born Again mix was at the helm here also.)

    I suppose my answer is No, it it couldn't have been a Black Sabbath album because it IS a Dio release. If Ronnie would have stayed, then obviously things would have been different. But I still question how many ideas that became songs for DIO, would have survived intact if he were part of Black Sabbath. Tony and Geezer have their own quality control standards in addition to RJD. As the leader of his own group, he may not have been creatively challenged in a way that the Birmingham Boys would have subjected him to. (Hate ending on a preposition.)

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  • terminator22
    replied
    Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
    If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.

    It was a Black Sabbath tune. Dio wrote that while he was still in Sabbath. The first time I heard it I remember telling my friend that sounds alot like Black Sabbath. I think it has a touch of Mob Rules sound to it. It wouldn't surprise me if the band had worked on it for their next album.

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  • Charger
    replied
    ^You mean Strange Highways, right?^

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  • Danimal77
    replied
    Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
    If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
    No, but Lost Highways and Angry Machines were definitely brone crushing metal albums that could have aided from Iommi behind the guitar. They both had Sabbath written all over them. BRUTALLY heavy!!

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  • Riffs
    replied
    Originally posted by cwilder86 View Post
    If the Dio line up hadn't folded in the 80's would Holy Diver (either song or album) have been a Black Sabbath song? Or do you think Dio would've been inspired to have written completely different lyrics and in a completely different way than he did as a solo artist in charge of his own band? Personally I think Holy Diver would've been a rockin' Dio Sabbath tune. I imagine the lyrics would've remained the same but the guitar and bass would've been vastly improved. No disrespect to Vivian Campbell and Jimmy Bain, but they can't touch Tony and Geezer in my world.
    You can't "vastly improve" on the greatness that is Holy Diver, sorry. That album is consistently listed as one of the greatest heavy metal record of all time and was extremely influential to many.

    And I'm an advocate of Iommi as the greatest guitarist to ever breathe but I say it lightly. I hate comparisons and I think they are usually unhelpful because they are speculative, based in imaginary contexts.

    Vivian Campbell's work on early Dio records is widely worshiped as some of the best to ever grace the genre. It's extremely memorable and reminiscent of classic rock and early metal while being infused with the wild energy of the early 80s. His guitar playing has a very distinct signature and nobody else would have come up with better leads at that time.

    A better question is: "would Holy Diver have been the same without Dio's stint in Sabbath". The answer is an obvious "no". Ronnie was a special talent and part of that is to synthesize past experiences and what you learn and using your own creativity. The Dio line-up, starting with Ronnie, deserves full credits for those phenomenal first few records and Iommi and Geezer deserve a big thanks for laying some of the groundwork that made it possible to happen.

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  • fondula
    replied
    Originally posted by Hell_Awaits View Post
    I always lament about not having more Dio Sabbath but at the same time its hard to imagine life without Born Again.
    That sounds about right to me. Born Again, for me, is special if not great. It is one of those things where I keep going back to it because it's unique and could only have happened in the way that it did. It is almost a spit in the face of the previous two albums, stylistically speaking. I can't imagine ANY of the songs having been created by the previous team. Holy Diver had a lot more in common with H&H and MR than Born Again did. There is a lot of dissonance and "anarchy" on Born Again which probably wouldn't have happened with Mr. Dio around.

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  • Hell_Awaits
    replied
    Originally posted by thesithempire View Post
    I agree with this as well. The two songs definitely feel related to me. I'd always hoped that Dio would convince Tony and Geezer to play that song live, so we could hear what that version would've sounded like, but I suppose Dio wanted to keep those worlds separate. Dehumanizer was always disappointing to me in large part because I wanted it to sound like the follow-up to Mob Rules, and it totally didn't. To me, half of Holy Diver and half of Born Again would've made the follow-up, which would've been brilliant. Then again, we would've lost the song "Born Again" (which Gillan really puts his stamp upon) and that would've been a shame.

    Personally, I never understood Iommi's aversion to doing solo-projects while Sabbath was still an entity. That would've saved the original lineup (at least for a bit longer) and it would've saved the Dio lineup (for a bit longer). While Dio was working on his solo project, there's no reason Tony and Geezer couldn't have done the same, in fact, they could still have gotten Gillan for the one-off "supergroup" it was meant to be, and done Born Again. And then after everyone toured, the Dio-lineup could've reformed. Oh well, idealism is only for an ideal world, I guess.
    I always lament about not having more Dio Sabbath but at the same time its hard to imagine life without Born Again.

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  • Gardener
    replied
    Originally posted by Benjo View Post
    Yes, the song Holy Diver could have been a Sabbath song. I wonder what the Born Again album (if it was called 'born' again' with Dio) would have been like. I admit I can easily imagine Ronnie singing Zero The Hero...but that's about it! Hmmm, maybe Disturbing The Priest too?
    I could definitely imagine Ronnie singing "Trashed" too. With other lyrics, of course, because I don't think Dio would have sung a song about how he got drunk and destroyed Bill Ward's car

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  • Benjo
    replied
    Yes, the song Holy Diver could have been a Sabbath song. I wonder what the Born Again album (if it was called 'born' again' with Dio) would have been like. I admit I can easily imagine Ronnie singing Zero The Hero...but that's about it! Hmmm, maybe Disturbing The Priest too?

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  • fondula
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbath Steve View Post
    I agree with most of this musicwise, but to me the lyrics on Stand Up And Shout just don't sound like Sabbath lyrics so much,Shame On The Night is def. Sab,and Don't Talk has that somber melancholic lyrical feel as well.
    Look at "Turn up the Night"... it's kind of lyrically in the same vein as "Stand up and Shout".

    Holy Diver (the album) is very much the next page for Dio (the man). There are similarities to what preceeded it but it also moved forward with its own personality, leveraging the personalities of the new personnel (most notably Vivian Campbell). "Rainbow in the Dark" and "Invisible", for example, are definitely not Sabbath songs.

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  • Charger
    replied
    I always thought Holy Diver album as a mix between Rainbow and Sabbath...mixing the best sides of both bands...Holy Diver is very Heaven And Hell like, with a simple powerful riff, Don't Talk To Strangers with it's soft intro and overall melancholy is in the same vain as Children Of The Sea...Stand Up And Shout is cleary in the same vain with Long Live Rock 'n Roll...Rainbow In The Dark is thematically close to Lonely Is The Word although musically far from it. Shame On The Night is a mixture of both bands.

    Just mentioning few similarities...Viv Campbell was closer to Ritche as a player than Tony...And his soloing was never as powerful and doomy as Tony's but more in the happier vain like Ritchies....

    But I would imagine Holy Diver (the song) could have easily been the title track of Sabbath's next album if Ronnie had stayed...

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  • Sabbath Steve
    replied
    Originally posted by fondula View Post
    Holy Diver (the album) is closer to the same train of thought drawn by H&H and Mob Rules than Born again was. There are parts of it that went a different way too, though. "Holy Diver" (the song) seems cut from the same cloth as "Heaven and Hell" (the song), so I could imagine it or elements of it as a Sabbath song. Maybe "Stand up and Shout", "Don't Talk to Strangers", and "Shame on the Night" too... but not much else. But hey that's like half an album right there LOL. Interesting train of conversation here.
    I agree with most of this musicwise, but to me the lyrics on Stand Up And Shout just don't sound like Sabbath lyrics so much,Shame On The Night is def. Sab,and Don't Talk has that somber melancholic lyrical feel as well.

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  • thesithempire
    replied
    Originally posted by fondula View Post
    "Holy Diver" (the song) seems cut from the same cloth as "Heaven and Hell" (the song), so I could imagine it or elements of it as a Sabbath song.
    I agree with this as well. The two songs definitely feel related to me. I'd always hoped that Dio would convince Tony and Geezer to play that song live, so we could hear what that version would've sounded like, but I suppose Dio wanted to keep those worlds separate. Dehumanizer was always disappointing to me in large part because I wanted it to sound like the follow-up to Mob Rules, and it totally didn't. To me, half of Holy Diver and half of Born Again would've made the follow-up, which would've been brilliant. Then again, we would've lost the song "Born Again" (which Gillan really puts his stamp upon) and that would've been a shame.

    Personally, I never understood Iommi's aversion to doing solo-projects while Sabbath was still an entity. That would've saved the original lineup (at least for a bit longer) and it would've saved the Dio lineup (for a bit longer). While Dio was working on his solo project, there's no reason Tony and Geezer couldn't have done the same, in fact, they could still have gotten Gillan for the one-off "supergroup" it was meant to be, and done Born Again. And then after everyone toured, the Dio-lineup could've reformed. Oh well, idealism is only for an ideal world, I guess.

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  • Damian
    replied
    Originally posted by mike146 View Post
    You are correct Damian, sorry for venting my frustration in an un positive way.
    No worries, dude.

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  • mike146
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian View Post
    The conjecture is fine. Cwilder86 references the breakup in his original post. You are not the author, if his "intention" was not followed then let him voice his own displeasure, the breakup was at the exact time that Holy Diver was being worked on, which plays right into how plausible releasing it as a Sabbath track may or may not be.

    Magica 2, 27 years later, and "letting" Heaven and Hell record it, is most definitely not even close. But you can start a new topic on it if you wish. If you do, please address why you think that Ronnie had that kind oif control over Tony and Geezer to "let" them complete his personal solo trilogy.
    You are correct Damian, sorry for venting my frustration in an un positive way.

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