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Why I Quit Bloody Sabbath

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    Some good points, for sure.

    David Palmer, man. The more I think of it it's flat-out comical that he would use the term "us musicians ..." and then talk about Sabbath's "Dog & Pony show." This guy cites Deep Purple as like these consummate musicians (though he is referencing Mark II), when just a few years prior to him joining Rainbow, Purple refused to appear at Cal Jam until it was dark, had explosions and pyrotechnics all over the place, his buddy Blackmore wouldn't go on and then did his Pete Townshend routine on a cameraman. Sabbath, by contrast, appeared in the day, had no lights, went out and played their music and, according to the promoter of the festival who had done hundreds of concerts, put on the greatest performance he had ever witnessed.

    Oh, and let us not forget that when he was in Rainbow, they had to haul around a fifty foot high multi-lighted "rainbow" to their shows.

    Palmer should have paid attention to his old friend Ronnie, who cited Geezer Butler as not only the best bassist he'd ever worked with but the greatest rock bassist of all time. And who of course could have told him plenty about Tony's mind numbing abilities as well.

    His storyline is also suspect. Never has anything ever put forth suggested that Dio was still in Rainbow when the Sabbath call came through. And in fact this interview is the very first time I've heard the name "David Palmer" used in relation to Sabbath. But if he had a chance to be in Sabbath?

    What a fuckin' tool.
    This David Palmer of Jethro Tull?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
      This David Palmer of Jethro Tull?
      David Stone, I meant.

      I'll fix it.
      "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
      -WTB

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
        back in the early days Tony and Geezer who are pretty reserved quiet by nature, were drinking doing drugs and weren't the best communicators by any stretch. RJD has a very big ego not that that itself is a bad thing, and he was drinker and drug user himself. I think it was natural for RJD to eventually become the "spokesman" even "leader" as far as public relations back in the day. I think the real story is buried somewhere, but obviously, Geezer and Tony felt Dio was getting too big for his boots. Later years, Geezer and RJD became very close... in public Tony too but Tony and RJD were never "best buddies", more professional working mates than good friends.. mutual respect was more like it. Over the years I've seen Tony mature and become quite elegant in conversation, something he wasn't so much in the earlier days. He did have his time when the coke and reputation of the band got a little too big in his head too.
        Tony and Dio became very close during TDYK it seems

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Jeff View Post
          I think it can be said in fairness that Ronnie could get very angry and say things that he would later see differently or at least be at peace with. Most of us have probably done the same.

          He has said far worse things about Ritchie Blackmore than Tony or Geezer, and yet in this interview he seems to suggest that he and Blackmore never had problems of the kind he was having with Tony and Geezer.

          No matter whose "fault" it was, Sabbath Mark II blew it, IMO. They had something truly special going. And had they continued, the band would have eventually been held in regard that was commensurate with the original band. Not that they are far from that, but they could have been there in full, even if reunions with Ozzy had happened as they have.

          I'm not sure I buy the idea that it was strictly "PR" to put the Live Evil mixing period to rest. And certainly I don't see that as an insult to fans (what?). Instead, I think they realized that certain people were in between their direct communication at that time. That instead of hashing things out there was too much stock put into what someone else said was being said. If they let some blame be put on someone else I suspect it was because they all wanted to let that period go. They knew what they had was absolutely mind blowing. And when they reunited for Dehumanizer I think they had to on some level let bygones be bygones.
          Fantastic post.

          One thing to consider when trying to interpret fall outs in bands is that these are people like the rest of us. Feelings do take over, people say things they might not actually mean. There certainly was a lot of bad blood between Ronnie and Tony/Geez, but who know what actually transpired during the splits? Time tends to gloss over memories, in good and bad. Another example is how the Mk 1 Sabbath has nothing but bad things to say about NSD!, despite it having it's moments. They were going through a really fucking' awful time back then. To us it's all about the end product (music), to the people making it it's a sum of all it took to produce it.

          To me it tells a lot about the real relationship between the Mk II Sabbath too how their last reunion played out. During their senior years they had learned to leave their egos aside and ended on a high note as friends. And it makes me incredibly glad, Sabbath Mk II was one of the greatest rock bands of all time.
          "The consequence of conscience/Is that you'll be left somewhere/Swinging in the air"-Ronnie James Dio (1942-2010) R.I.P. King Of Metal
          "Just take a look around you what do you see/Pain, suffering, and misery/It's not the way that the world was planned/It's a pity you don't understand" - Geezer Butler
          "If god is in heaven/How can this happen here" - Phil Lynott (1949-1986)

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          • #50
            My guess is that Stone was judging a book by its cover when he was talking about Sabbath, not really familiar with their stuff and not wanting to get familiar with their stuff. He was in his early 20s, had just gotten burned out after a year of hard touring with an international act, and was getting in over his head with drugs and stuff.

            I mean, he thought a deal with Max Webster would be better than Black Sabbath, money-wise. Kid was just out of his league.

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            • #51
              Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

              "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

              I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

              Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinnie being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

              Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

              Ted

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

                "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

                I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

                Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinny being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

                Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

                Ted
                To your last point Ted, YES, they chose once again to pass the buck, relinquish responsibility, and blame De Carlo instead. Par for the course for members of Black Sabbath as we've seen for DECADES(). But I digress.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                  Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

                  "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

                  I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

                  Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinnie being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

                  Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

                  Ted
                  Great post, thank you!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                    Great post, thank you!
                    You're welcome and thank you for the compliment.

                    A Sabbath Historian wrote: To your last point Ted, YES, they chose once again to pass the buck, relinquish responsibility, and blame De Carlo instead. Par for the course for members of Black Sabbath as we've seen for DECADES(). But I digress.

                    Yes, passing blame is nothing new with Sabbath.

                    Ted

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Axe fiend View Post
                      I remember back in the 80's when I was a teenager, starting guitar and getting into Sabbath, wondering what Tony's voice even sounded like, Back then (before internet) it seemed we'd never hear him talk. I think the whole Seventh Star period forced him into coming out of his shell, doing interviews and being "The front figure and all that".
                      I have a radio interview with Tony from around when the Born Again Tour came to my city n 1983; he was quite informative during that. Also, on the Heaven and Hell (Band) concert DVD, Ronnie states during his interview segment that both Tony and Bill were quite outgoing (toward Ronnie) when he 1st met them when he joined the band in 1979 and that it was Geezer who was reserved at first but then opened up more later on.

                      Ted

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
                        I have a radio interview with Tony from around when the Born Again Tour came to my city n 1983; he was quite informative during that. Also, on the Heaven and Hell (Band) concert DVD, Ronnie states during his interview segment that both Tony and Bill were quite outgoing (toward Ronnie) when he 1st met them when he joined the band in 1979 and that it was Geezer who was reserved at first but then opened up more later on.

                        Ted
                        So obviously my experience wasn't based on any fact, it was just MY experience. Cheers Ted.
                        We donít see things as they are; we see them as we are.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Axe fiend View Post
                          So obviously my experience wasn't based on any fact, it was just MY experience. Cheers Ted.
                          No, based on your previous post that I quoted just above, it appears you didn't experience hearing Tony talk pre-Seventh Star 'Era' whereas others here and I did.

                          Ted

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                          • #58
                            GREAT discussion here, kudos to all who have added bits and pieces to it, the composite is great reading for those interested in this caustic point in the history of Black Sabbath.

                            I’m also glad that the possible impact of Ronnie’s solo aspirations are being dissected. I remember an interview that Ronnie gave while he was still in Sabbath in 1982 about defending his then in-production solo album and that it was not an indicator that his time in Sabbath was ending and he listed examples of other current bands who had members put out solo stuff on the side and the band was not affected. (I want to say Kiss and Genesis were his examples but I’m strictly going off a 35 year memory now).

                            I do remember that Ronnie made it seem that Tony and Geezer were on-board and supportive of him and that Sabbath was still one big happy family. Of course later Geezer appeared insulted when he alleged that Ronnie was using his “best stuff” for his solo album instead of Sabbath. I actually think the song Holy Diver was part of the contention. It is the only song that is credited to Dio solo on the Holy Diver album. It seems likely that it existed in some kind of demo form that Geezer and Tony heard at some point. How would they know it was Ronnie’s “best stuff” without being exposed to it while he was still in the band?

                            My God, if Holy Diver had been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
                            Last edited by Damian; 12-15-2017, 01:07 PM.
                            Damian
                            Super Moderator
                            Black-Sabbath.com

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Damian View Post
                              My God, if Holy Diver has been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
                              What if the whole album had been the Sabbath studio follow-up to Mob Rules?

                              But... that would presume that Butler and Iommi would have taken a back seat to Dio in the writing department... would that have been possible? I'm not so sure it would.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Damian View Post
                                It is the only song that is credited to Dio solo on the Holy Diver album. It seems likely that it existed in some kind of demo form that Geezer and Tony heard at some point. How would they know it was Ronnie’s “best stuff” without being exposed to it while he was still in the band?

                                My God, if Holy Diver has been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
                                The riff rhythm in the song Holy Diver is stolen from the bass riff in the song Heaven and Hell.
                                Last edited by Kennyz; 12-15-2017, 11:46 AM.

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