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Why I Quit Bloody Sabbath

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Kennyz View Post
    The riff rhythm in the song Holy Diver is stolen from the bass riff in the song Heaven and Hell.
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— —————7h9————————
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— —7h9————————————
    |—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7 ————————————————
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— ————————————————

    Is that really stealing? I guess tapping your foot to music is stealing from Morse Code then, as well!

    I think the fact that Holy Diver could have appeared in a Sabbath follow up to Mob Rules without raising many eyebrows at least sets the table that Holy Diver, the song, might have been among the "best stuff" that Geezer was insulted that Ronnie was keeping for his solo work. Again, as I stated, it was a song completely credited to Dio himself, which lends to it likely not being written in an environment of new band mates, because it already existed by that point.

    The input of Bain and Campbell made much of the rest of the Holy Diver album sound decidedly NOT like Sabbath. We were lucky to get four studio albums from the Mach II lineup, just like we were with the entire Ozzy Era, and to wistfully think of "what could have been" also takes away the amazing solo work from both Ozzy and Ronnie. And the end of the day, I think the fans have been handsomely rewarded over the years.
    Last edited by Damian; 12-15-2017, 01:18 PM.
    Damian
    Super Moderator
    Black-Sabbath.com

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Damian View Post
      ...he listed examples of other current bands who had members put out solo stuff on the side and the band was not affected. (I want to say Kiss and Genesis were his examples but I’m strictly going off a 35 year memory now).
      If your memory is correct regarding KISS at least, 50% of the original lineup of that band were no longer in the group by 1982 so it wouldn't have been accurate for Dio to use them as an example.

      Insofar as Dio's solo aspirations may have helped precipitate his exit from Sabbath, I also think it's unfortunate that he couldn't have remained with them while also recording then releasing the Holy Diver album. As for the what if HD was a Black Sabbath album, that's an intriguing thought...

      Ted

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Ted Sallis View Post
        If your memory is correct regarding KISS at least, 50% of the original lineup of that band were no longer in the group by 1982 so it wouldn't have been accurate for Dio to use them as an example.

        Insofar as Dio's solo aspirations may have helped precipitate his exit from Sabbath, I also think it's unfortunate that he couldn't have remained with them while also recording then releasing the Holy Diver album. As for the what if HD was a Black Sabbath album, that's an intriguing thought...

        Ted
        Maybe someone here can dig up the interview, in either Hit Parader, Cream, RIP, or some other periodical from that specific time frame when Ronnie was still in Sabbath, but after the recording of Mob Rules. He definitely used other bands as examples of successful solo/band combinations while explaining the process of his solo album. As I said above, not sure now who those groups were. What was clear is that Dio made it seem as though the rest of the band were ok with his solo venture. And that he was already working on what would become the Holy Diver album before leaving Sabbath. How things went south from there is, and will continue to be, debatable.

        Looking back on it, I think Ronnie made a mistake. I think that he wanted to go solo right after he left Rainbow and by the time he started actually working on what would be Holy Diver, I think he was trying to keep Sabbath as a "plan b" if his solo act did not make a dent. If he had made a clean break it would have been better all around, even though doing so would be putting all of his eggs in a very untested basket. Then future reunions could not only have still happened, but may have come together sooner, and stayed longer. 1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again. If they had been on better terms, more like how it was between Ian Gillian and Sabbath when the Deep Purple reunion came about (in which Gillian was upfront and honest about its possibility and priority from day one) then such an alliance could have been struck with maybe a simple phone call.

        There were also other stresses in Live Evil's mixing studio. Tony and Geezer already knew that Ozzy was planning to put out his own live album of classic Black Sabbath songs, with 6 Sabbath tunes found on both releases, and the race was on as to which camp could get their work released first.
        Speak of the Devil won the race, dropping a month before Live Evil and satisfying a large group of fans hungry for live Sabbath songs, and it demolished Live Evil in sales. At some point during post-production of Live Evil, maybe around the time Ronnie left, it became known among Sabbath that there was no way Live Evil could get finished in time to beat Speak of the Devil to market, and that fact probably did not add optimism to the project.

        I agree with those who have posted that this stretch of the Black Sabbath timeline is among the most remarkable for so many different reasons and factors!
        Damian
        Super Moderator
        Black-Sabbath.com

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        • #64
          My sabbath culture is surely not exhaustive like some members here but from my window I can not imagine putting the mighty Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Holy Diver in the same league. There are only 2 masterpieces and Tony Iommi plays on it. Personally, I can't rate Holy Diver as a possible version of a successor to Mob Rules. I have never been able to appreciate this record because of this weak and dry sound, without heavy bass. Draw your guns: Born Again and Seventh Star give me more pleasure.
          Regarding the HH vs HD main bass riff, the similarity is clear, Morse code or not. When I first listened to the HD title track with my brother in '83, we had the same reaction "oh! He steals that to BS" We talked about Gruber or Nicholls about this bass line. Did Gruber already work with DIo on a solo project before the Heaven and Hell sessions? the great Geoff sure not. Nobody will know it and this belongs to the world of suppositions.

          "Ritchie was a gentleman"? I can not find this interview I read some time ago from Roger Glover who arrived in Rainbow before Roninie's departure (if I remember correctly) who explained that he was shuttling between the Ronnie's house and Ritchie's place during sometimes, these two legends refusing to speak to each other except by intermediary person. Egocentrism can cause holes In Memory ...
          great debate here.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Damian View Post
            Maybe someone here can dig up the interview, in either Hit Parader, Cream, RIP, or some other periodical from that specific time frame when Ronnie was still in Sabbath, but after the recording of Mob Rules. He definitely used other bands as examples of successful solo/band combinations while explaining the process of his solo album. As I said above, not sure now who those groups were. What was clear is that Dio made it seem as though the rest of the band were ok with his solo venture. And that he was already working on what would become the Holy Diver album before leaving Sabbath. How things went south from there is, and will continue to be, debatable.

            Looking back on it, I think Ronnie made a mistake. I think that he wanted to go solo right after he left Rainbow and by the time he started actually working on what would be Holy Diver, I think he was trying to keep Sabbath as a "plan b" if his solo act did not make a dent. If he had made a clean break it would have been better all around, even though doing so would be putting all of his eggs in a very untested basket. Then future reunions could not only have still happened, but may have come together sooner, and stayed longer. 1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again. If they had been on better terms, more like how it was between Ian Gillian and Sabbath when the Deep Purple reunion came about (in which Gillian was upfront and honest about its possibility and priority from day one) then such an alliance could have been struck with maybe a simple phone call.

            There were also other stresses in Live Evil's mixing studio. Tony and Geezer already knew that Ozzy was planning to put out his own live album of classic Black Sabbath songs, with 6 Sabbath tunes found on both releases, and the race was on as to which camp could get their work released first.
            Speak of the Devil won the race, dropping a month before Live Evil and satisfying a large group of fans hungry for live Sabbath songs, and it demolished Live Evil in sales. At some point during post-production of Live Evil, maybe around the time Ronnie left, it became known among Sabbath that there was no way Live Evil could get finished in time to beat Speak of the Devil to market, and that fact probably did not add optimism to the project.

            I agree with those who have posted that this stretch of the Black Sabbath timeline is among the most remarkable for so many different reasons and factors!
            Excellent points Damian, btw nice to see you or hear from you. Like you stated in your previous post, I think as fans we got pretty much everything we wanted in the end..no pun intended. H&H the band... and Sabbath reunited with a new album, and ending their career on a world wide mostly sold out tour! After all is said and done, the Sabbath timeline rest on a solid Rock, aka Tony Iommi.
            Last edited by Wicked Cricket; 12-16-2017, 02:15 PM.
            "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
            R. Blackmore

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            • #66
              Originally posted by TYR66 View Post
              My sabbath culture is surely not exhaustive like some members here but from my window I can not imagine putting the mighty Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Holy Diver in the same league. There are only 2 masterpieces and Tony Iommi plays on it. Personally, I can't rate Holy Diver as a possible version of a successor to Mob Rules. I have never been able to appreciate this record because of this weak and dry sound, without heavy bass.
              I completely agree. I appreciated it when it came out, but Holy Diver just hasn't aged all that well for me. In addition to the production, I just don't find Vivian Campbell to be all that convincing as a rhythm player. The whole band just seems kind of forced together and not truly cohesive. Dio sings his lungs out, however.
              "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
              -WTB

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Damian View Post
                1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again.
                An excellent lengthy post by Damian above! I've quoted a small portion of it which I don't think I've ever considered before, but I can't possibly think of a better year within which Tony and Ronnie could have gotten back together again than 1986 as Damian suggested, since instead of getting the complete debacle of an album called Seventh Star that year, we could have gotten an infinitely better album with an infinitely better vocalist IMHO completely worthy of being released under the Black Sabbath name.

                Then, assuming Tony and Ronnie stayed together, we could have gotten subsequent completely authentic Sabbath albums (and tours) which would put the pseudo-Sabbath albums released between 1987 and 1990 (featuring another hugely inferior vocalist) to shame.

                Ted

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                • #68
                  They must of let Jr. High out early for CHRISTmas break .... what can you do , just try to entertain them ....

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
                    They must of let Jr. High out early for CHRISTmas break .... what can you do , just try to entertain them ....
                    \m/

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                    • #70
                      The facts can be a difficult beast for some people to accept. It's simply too much of a burden for them.

                      Ted

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                      • #71
                        ya but don't be so hard on yourself

                        ronn

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                        • #72
                          You should have pleaded the 5th Amendment instead of posting a reply like that.

                          Ted

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                          • #73
                            Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

                            ronn

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ronn View Post
                              Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

                              ronn
                              ? I've always liked that song; I don't know why you are using it to compare to something Sabbath has put out.

                              Ted

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ronn View Post
                                Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

                                ronn
                                That song is pure life, I love that song. Doesn't really enter into my "could be worse" calculations.

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