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  • #16
    Originally posted by devstorm View Post
    I also remember reading an issue of Guitar for the Practicing musician magazine from this period in time, and I always recalled Vivian stating that he left DIO voluntarily. Not fired.
    "What can I tell you? I was fired!" - Vivian Campbell, Kerrang!, spring 1986.

    At that time, Dio said that Campbell was trying to remain in Dio but also form a band called Trinity, and it was affecting his contributions to Dio.

    Vinny Appice I have often wondered about. He has writing credits all over Dio albums, but I haven't seen a single one with Black Sabbath/Heaven and Hell. He's almost treated like an employee, kind of like Scott Travis with Judas Priest.

    But as for Jimmy Bain...no matter what sort of resentments he may have with Ronnie James Dio, the fact is that if he had not become a member of the Dio band, he probably would have been relegated to the "where are they now?" brigade long ago.

    I would say that his addictions very much had a role. If his addictions were affecting his playing, and his input into the Dio band, that would have made his position precarious. Cue Ozzy, Ace Frehley, Peter Criss, etc. I'm tempted to include Nikki Sixx, but Motley Crue are basically his band.

    Full disclosure: I am a recovering alcoholic 10+ years sober, so I'm not trying to paint people with addictions as somehow "evil."

    But really a lot of Bain's arguments are academic, since Ronnie is dead, he'll never be able to hash out these problems, real or imagined.
    He is not here. He has risen!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
      I wouldn't exactly fit the Daisley/Kerslake analogy here.

      Wendy Dio hasn't erased Jimmy Bain's or Vivian Campbell's tracks from the albums they played on.

      What Jimmy Bain also seemed to neglect in his YouTube bit is admission that he had a bad drug problem, and that will certainly eat up your money.

      Ronnie James Dio pulled Vivian Campbell out of obscurity, and Bain out of semi-obscurity. Campbell was playing in a bar band (Sweet Savage) in Belfast. Bain hadn't done much of anything since Rainbow except for some sessions with Thin Lizzy ("Sarah," on the Black Rose album) and trying to get Wild Horses going with Brian Robertson (great guitar player, but another walking Molotov cocktail, at least at that time). He had a higher profile than any of them and could have picked almost anyone (he almost chose John Sykes), and he almost formed a band with Kerry Livgren (Kansas had just split up). That would have given Dio a triple-threat: a brilliant guitarist, keyboardist and songwriter.

      I remember reading an interview with Campbell in one of the many guitar magazines in 1986, not long after he got fired from Dio. He said that basically he got tired of all the knights, armour and other associated imagery...but didn't he know that was Ronnie's modus operandi when he signed up?

      Other than the now-infamous YouTube opinion RJD gave about Campbell I never read anything in print where Ronnie ever really slagged Campbell. When Campbell joined Whitesnake Dio said something like "Viv deserves to make good music...but I'm not sure how he'll be able to as Adrian Vandenberg's guitar partner."

      Bain is a good bass player to be sure, but I don't think he's the best Dio ever played with...to me he's not on the same level as Bob Daisley, Jeff Pilson and, of course, the Geez. But that's just a personal opinion.

      Granted, I don't know much about the inner politics that were happening with Dio (the band). But based on other, similar situations where one person's name is the band name, has there ever really been a full-shares all-are-equal situation?

      I'm thinking of Gillan and, of course, Ozzy.
      Thank you, DiosSword, I think you are right on the money with this post.

      BTW, Campbell turned 21 and Vinny was the ripe old age of 24 in the year that Holy Diver came out.

      Being a junkie can most definitely have an effect on your actions, perspective, and VALUE as well. I love how Bain keeps saying how Heaven and Hell wont last long at all, and that their tour would be undermined by Ozzfest. If it wasn't for Ronnie's cancer, they would still be together now, three years later. I guess Jimmy must have been really happy for his band mate Vinny that he was getting a nice check all that time, huh?
      Damian
      Super Moderator
      Black-Sabbath.com

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
        I wouldn't exactly fit the Daisley/Kerslake analogy here.

        Wendy Dio hasn't erased Jimmy Bain's or Vivian Campbell's tracks from the albums they played on.
        Those are separate situations. Kerslake and Daisley weren't removed from the Ozzy recordings because of their gripes about being in Ozzy solo band instead of a full band, they were removed because they kept suing over royalties they believed they were owed. That is different. However, both Bain and Daisley/Kerslake believed that they were engaging in a project in which they would be equal members and in the end they were not. That is the same.

        Quite possibly, when Ronnie assembled a group, this was something that was talked about but there was probably never any kind of contract that specified this. Believe it or not, many musicians will work for someone based on promises. I used to work with a guy who drummed for this singer/songwriter who was pretty prominent around Chicago in the mid 1990s. He played with her for a few years before he and the rest of her band left and sued her for unpaid wages. I asked him why he stayed for so long and he said it was because she kept promising that the pay would come. So maybe this was something Ronnie promised and maybe when the time came, there was good reason for it not happening. Maybe with Jimmy's drug problems, Ronnie thought it was an unwise move. Maybe there were financial problems with Dio's organization that made it an unwise move (Vivian Campbell once said Ronnie was a horrible business person). Maybe Ronnie just decided that he wasn't going to make the rest of the band equal partners because he just didn't want to. Maybe Jimmy is completely wrong and the things he believed were incorrect. Who knows? The fact that the entire Dio band, save Ronnie, changed over after the 4th album would indicate that there was some disagreement somewhere. Maybe it was business and maybe it wasn't.

        I'm not trying to paint Dio as a bad guy. I don't know the situation anymore than the rest of you and I don't know why the things that happened happened the way they did. I do find it odd, however, that so many of you seem to think Jimmy's complaints somehow hold less water because he was a drug addict or because he rejoined Dio later on or his post-Dio career was low-key. If this had been Ozzy instead of Dio I think that a lot of you would completely take Jimmy's word on it the way Bob Daisley's word is taken as gospel.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
          I'm not trying to paint Dio as a bad guy. I don't know the situation anymore than the rest of you and I don't know why the things that happened happened the way they did. I do find it odd, however, that so many of you seem to think Jimmy's complaints somehow hold less water because he was a drug addict or because he rejoined Dio later on or his post-Dio career was low-key. If this had been Ozzy instead of Dio I think that a lot of you would completely take Jimmy's word on it the way Bob Daisley's word is taken as gospel.

          OK, I'll bite. I don't find anything odd in the least that people put less faith in the opinion of someone who is addicted to drugs. We all think differently when impaired. That is why its called being "impaired". A verbal agreement made on drugs, some statement you heard while on drugs, the actions you take while on drugs, all of it holds less water for me then if someone was straight and sober. Even if Jimmy has been clean for 20 years, I'm not going to just believe his account of events when he was all fucked up at the time. I won't totally dismiss his words either, but does it hold less water? To me, sure.

          I disagree with your Ozzy/Bain assumptions. Going back on your word about a band is one thing, but denying somone royalties is stealing, and then removing their parts in the songs they wrote/recorded and then getting digs in wherever you can (Bob Daisley plays ASS, remember that classy credit?) brings with it a stigma that goes beyond the worst that Ronnie James Dio ever did. And were talking about a much bigger financial discrepancy here between Ozzy/Daisley then with Dio/Bain/Campbell. The song Crazy Train alone has earned more in sales and royalties then the entire Dio discography. You would think that all of the people responsible for writing and recording that song should be set for life, right? The comparison might seem very handy to some, but its not a fair one.
          Damian
          Super Moderator
          Black-Sabbath.com

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Damian View Post
            And were talking about a much bigger financial discrepancy here between Ozzy/Daisley then with Dio/Bain/Campbell.
            Immoral is immoral.
            ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
              "What can I tell you? I was fired!" - Vivian Campbell, Kerrang!, spring 1986.

              At that time, Dio said that Campbell was trying to remain in Dio but also form a band called Trinity, and it was affecting his contributions to Dio.

              Vinny Appice I have often wondered about. He has writing credits all over Dio albums, but I haven't seen a single one with Black Sabbath/Heaven and Hell. He's almost treated like an employee, kind of like Scott Travis with Judas Priest.
              I read awhile ago that Vinnie was dismissed from Dio because he chose to tour with Black Sabbath (Ozzy reunion) as insurance in case Bill Ward could not make it on any given night rather than tour with Dio. I can only assume Vinnie stood to make a bigger pay day. Money makes for strange bed fellows.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pete00000 View Post
                Money makes for strange bed fellows.
                Most certainly. I believe that's what Jimmy was referring to in the interview posted above. Heaven & Hell forms and they're suddenly old friends again. Dollar signs speak all sorts of volume.
                ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by hipster doofus View Post
                  Heaven & Hell forms and they're suddenly old friends again. Dollar signs speak all sorts of volume.
                  I don't deny that at all but let's not try to pretend that Dio wasn't close with Vinny and Geezer. They were paul bearers at his funeral after all. So his relationship with Geezer and Vinny obviously wasn't based entirely on money.
                  Nobody will ever let you know
                  When you ask the reason why
                  They just tell you that you're on your own
                  Fill your head all full of lies

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sabbathfan78 View Post
                    let's not try to pretend that Dio wasn't close with Vinny and Geezer.
                    Never said anything about Geezer. I'm sure he and Vinny were friends. I wasn't implying they weren't but I don't doubt, at least as indicated by another band member, that they weren't always friends. That's the music biz.
                    ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hipster doofus View Post
                      Immoral is immoral.
                      It would be nice to live in a black-and-white world like that, wouldn't it? You can't say that someone who steals a $1 candy bar from 7-Eleven is just as immoral as Bernie Madoff who bilked billions of dollars from investors over several decades. In theory, its way easier to chuck it all into one simple category, but we, as a society, know better than that. There are levels, and the Ozzy/Daisley one is not on the same one as Dio/Campbell/Bain.

                      ---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------

                      Originally posted by hipster doofus View Post
                      Most certainly. I believe that's what Jimmy was referring to in the interview posted above. Heaven & Hell forms and they're suddenly old friends again. Dollar signs speak all sorts of volume.
                      And they are the same dollars that speak to Ozzy each time he reunites with Black Sabbath, but were talking about a much louder volume in this case. As for Vinny and Ronnie's friendship, its been reported that the two of them worked through whatever differences they had early on in the Heaven and Hell project, and backstage at their last-ever show together, they looked as thick as thieves to me. And as noted, Vinny helped carry Ronnie to his grave, and I doubt very much that he was motivated by money to do that.

                      The bottom line is that they WERE old friends again. What does Jimmy Bain know? If there was no Heaven and Hell how does he know that Ronnie wouldn't call up Vinny and patch things up one day? I guess to Jimmy Bain, you would NEED a huge pay increase to get the motivation to walk away from a negative, bitter, jealous, ex-junkie. Nobody would leave his side otherwise, right?
                      Damian
                      Super Moderator
                      Black-Sabbath.com

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Damian View Post
                        It would be nice to live in a black-and-white world like that, wouldn't it? You can't say that someone who steals a $1 candy bar from 7-Eleven is just as immoral as Bernie Madoff who bilked billions of dollars from investors over several decades.
                        Certainly. There are no doubts that the Ozzy issue is probably, numerically and financially in a whole different class. Your analogy, although mildly creative, is a bit much. We're not talking about candy cars. These were easily the Dio band's biggest financial and critical successes, including touring.

                        Comparing it to the dollar value of the Ozzy/Daisley issue to make light of it doesn't make it any less wrong. The general basis of both claims in both issues are eerily similar and still very much WRONG/IMMORAL.


                        Originally posted by Damian View Post
                        The bottom line is that they WERE old friends again.
                        I realize that. I already responded to it.


                        Originally posted by Damian View Post
                        I guess to Jimmy Bain, you would NEED a huge pay increase to get the motivation to walk away from a negative, bitter, jealous, ex-junkie. Nobody would leave his side otherwise, right?
                        I'm not here to defend Jimmy. I knew and appreciate him for his contributions to the Dio music, that's about it. Either way, most artists throughout the 70s and 80s were doped up and drunk. Regardless of his personal demons, Ronnie obviously thought enough of him to include him on several releases, even as recently as nearly every track on Killing the Dragon.
                        Last edited by hipster doofus; 06-04-2010, 12:24 AM.
                        ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ellbery View Post
                          I guess the way to look at it is: How many people have nice things to say about their bosses??
                          As an employee it sucks that the boss is making way more money off your hard work.
                          $150 doesn't sound like much but in 1983?? and surely that was spending money, food/accommodation/travel were obviously taken care off. Kinda sounds like ex employee taking a pop, but who knows? What were other people getting paid at the same time? Vivian, Jimmy & Vinnie wouldn't have taken a pay cut to join Dio so $150 must've been good or at least fair back then!!
                          Let me tell you as someone who was alive in 1983 and had a part time job while in high school as a bike messenger. I made about $150 a week doing this and it wasn't a lot of money for even then. And it' not good money for being in a big rock band of Dio's caliber. Around that same time Jake E lee was in Ozzy and he was making $500 a week as i recall from and old interview of his. And in my opinion Vivian Cambell was afar better guitarist then jake E lee.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by fishtowner View Post
                            Let me tell you as someone who was alive in 1983 and had a part time job while in high school as a bike messenger. I made about $150 a week doing this and it wasn't a lot of money for even then. And it' not good money for being in a big rock band of Dio's caliber. Around that same time Jake E lee was in Ozzy and he was making $500 a week as i recall from and old interview of his. And in my opinion Vivian Cambell was afar better guitarist then jake E lee.
                            Who do you think is better off, the person getting $ 150 a week and songwriting credits or the person getting $ 500 and no credits whatsoever?

                            Bain and Campbell still get royalties whenever Rainbow in the Dark is played while Lee gets nothing from Bark at the moon.

                            ---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 AM ----------

                            Originally posted by devstorm View Post
                            But ok since they had no idea how the HD album was going to do, I'm sure the guys weren't complaining too much. However the promise was made that when they started on Last In Line they were supposed to be equal partners - get a cut from sales, merch, publishing etc. And that never happened as promised. Sure if you're on tour for 9 - 11 months a year you get meals and a place to sleep 150 a week will go far enough. What if you have kids? How do they get what they need?.
                            From the interview I got the impression he was paid the $ 150 during the recording process. That doesn't mean he didn't make more for the touring.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by pete00000 View Post
                              Money makes for strange bed fellows.

                              Im not interely sure that mone was the main cause..for example Dio still had an amazing respect for Tony Iommi as a songwriter and that they always made according to dio great music thats why he decided to write with iommi again. I have never heard dio ever slag Iommi for any music he has written with or without him(dio) in the band.. so money isnt always the whole story. And regarding appice sure he went were the money was but i guess the drummer in him still enjoyed playing the music
                              Last edited by miracle; 06-04-2010, 07:08 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Damian View Post
                                OK, I'll bite. I don't find anything odd in the least that people put less faith in the opinion of someone who is addicted to drugs. We all think differently when impaired. That is why its called being "impaired". A verbal agreement made on drugs, some statement you heard while on drugs, the actions you take while on drugs, all of it holds less water for me then if someone was straight and sober. Even if Jimmy has been clean for 20 years, I'm not going to just believe his account of events when he was all fucked up at the time. I won't totally dismiss his words either, but does it hold less water? To me, sure.
                                I don't find it so much of a case of "less faith" as much as it seems to be "oh, Jimmy's wrong because...". It's your perogative to dismiss Bain's claims, and based on other posts you've made recently, it seems that you're going to dismiss anyone who dismisses Dio. That's fine, like I said, it's your perogative. I don't know who's right in this situation. In fact, I stated that Jimmy could be totally incorrect about what he believes, and, as he's never pursued any legal recourse, it would seem to me IF Jimmy is correct, it's more likely a case of broken promises than breach of contract and that stuff happens. I just think that it's wrong to completely dismiss what the guy says because he had drug problems or the band was called "Dio" or because he didn't do much outside of Dio, which some posters here have done. Some of the things Jimmy said, particularly about H&H, were probably said more out of bitterness towards Dio and towards losing his drummer than anything else. Big deal, who cares about that? But he believes what he believes about his Dio situation and so I understand why he'd be mad.


                                I disagree with your Ozzy/Bain assumptions. Going back on your word about a band is one thing, but denying somone royalties is stealing, and then removing their parts in the songs they wrote/recorded and then getting digs in wherever you can (Bob Daisley plays ASS, remember that classy credit?) brings with it a stigma that goes beyond the worst that Ronnie James Dio ever did. And were talking about a much bigger financial discrepancy here between Ozzy/Daisley then with Dio/Bain/Campbell. The song Crazy Train alone has earned more in sales and royalties then the entire Dio discography. You would think that all of the people responsible for writing and recording that song should be set for life, right? The comparison might seem very handy to some, but its not a fair one.
                                You're confusing the things I said, but maybe I wasn't clear. The issue about Daisley/Kerslake believing that they were joining the Blizzard of Ozz band instead of Ozzy's solo band is different from the reason they were removed from the "Blizzard of Ozz" and "Diary Of A Madman" reissues. The only comparison I'm making between Bain's claims and Daisley/Kerslake's claims is that both parties believed that they were going to be equal members of a band and not sidemen. That's were the similarities end and that's all I was pointing out. But Bob Daisely makes this claim, the only proof is his word and it's pointed out as an example of Ozzy/Sharon manipulation and general scumbaggery, but Jimmy Bain makes this claim and it's pointed out that he's a drug addict so that probably effected what he remembers. Both parties could have been wronged or both parties could have been mistaken but all we have is their word and I truly believe that the reaction has less to do with the people making the claim and more about the way people here view Ozzy and Dio.

                                Daisley and Kerslake weren't removed from those reissues because they said "hey, this was supposed to be a band, not a solo act" but because they believe that they were not paid the performance royalties they were owed and sued Ozzy over it. Whether they weren't paid what they are owed or whether they think they are owed more than they were paid (and I don't remember if the issue was that they weren't paid at all or if they weren't getting what they were supposed to), I completely disagree with removing them from the releases, especially since Ozzy won that court case and therefore didn't owe them anymore money (so it wasn't like Ozzy took a hit). However, Daisley and Kerslake still have their publishing royalities from those albums, so they still get paid every time "Crazy Train" is played on the radio or someone licenses or covers it (or, at least Daisley does, I don't remember if Kerslake was ever credited on that song). The issue was only over performance royalties (which is where they'd get a cut from album sales) and not publishing. Daisley has always stated that the publishing was always square, which is why he continued to work with Ozzy afterwards (and I believe that he and Jake E. Lee are paid on "Bark At The Moon"; I recall Daisley saying that a legal issue prevented their names from appearing on the credits in the album but they still got publishing same as Bob's work for "Eternal Idol", although maybe I'm wrong about that). Still doesn't make things right, but it's not like they see no money at all.
                                Last edited by VikingChrist; 06-04-2010, 10:21 AM.

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