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  • Originally posted by Icy Sun View Post

    I was thinking it could be studio sessions of them playing old classics with Wilk on drums.
    Yep this seems to be the most logical

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    • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
      Agree, Euro, Asian, "World" sales were better than the US, but serioisly, #13 or #12 in the UK is like saying #13 in New Hampshire.... the US is THE market, if you aren't selling there, your not going to last long, WB's the Sab's parent record label ended up dropping them once the last contracted album was delivered, 7th Star... in reality the split between Ozzy and the band was the best thing to happen to both of them, but clearly, Ozzy easily came out much stronger.... as good as H&H and Mob Rules were, BS couldn't touch Ozzy in terms of record sales, live tours$ or popularity... and the divide would only get deeper in sales as Iommi continued to drag multiple faceless bands out parading them as "Black Sabbath".

      I did say they could still draw a live corwd, but the NSD tour was greatly aided by a new WB band called Van Halen, who were blowing them off the stage every night, at least the Press saw it that way...
      Agreed! Population-wise, England is closer to California and Texas combined though, which is still only a fraction of the US, but hard to dismiss.
      Damian
      Super Moderator
      Black-Sabbath.com

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      • On that metal show didnt Tony say it wasnt true that Van Halen blew them away? I think he even laughed about it

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        • Originally posted by Ron Paul View Post
          About UK or EU only best selling artists not lasting long - Iron Maiden is a glaring example to the contrary. There are tons of artists who never really broke the US in a big way but they carried on strong.
          Iron Maiden was pretty big here, in the US... at least live tours, and their records have sold quite well... to put things in perspective, David Hassellhoff is the no.1 all time selling musical act in Germany, in the US, his music career is non existant, most people here know nothing about it or even care, here he's known only as a bad actor... his acting "achievements" are Night Rider, where the car was the star, and Baywatch, where Pamela Anderson and an asorted number of beach bimbos were the "stars" ... no one could seriously act...

          In reality, Sabbath was never in "dire straits", per say, durring the Ozzy era, nor the Dio era... though cracks were showing at different times and from the time Dio went solo, after Mob Rules, it was a continous downward slide for the Sabbath ship... with Captian Iommi going down with it...

          ---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

          Originally posted by OZZYIRONMAN View Post
          On that metal show didnt Tony say it wasnt true that Van Halen blew them away? I think he even laughed about it
          Of course Tony was going to say that, he's going to defend his band, and he probbaly didn't see things the same way.. but it was a well known fact, that Van Heln's energy and new sound made Sabbath look and sound even more old hat than they already were... Warner Bros' wasn't interested in BS any longer, they milked the name for as long as they could then moved on withut them... TM Sab was distributed by IRS Records... a small amatuerist company that did nothing for Sabbath's sales...the death knell was being rung on the original hard rock gods... Purple, Zep and the Sab's were all being buried... let's face it, Dio Sab was a completely different band and injected new life, and Ozzy was solo, Pruple broke up into White Snake... and so on... had history been a little bit different, this would be the first BLACK SABBATH album in 35 years.. literally.. Dio Sab and onward, though called BS, could easily have been called something else as none of them really sounded like the original band...
          "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
          R. Blackmore

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          • Anyone with doubts about rick Rubin should sleep easy that he'll do a sterling job, he's a massive fan!, produced some of my fav albums and he isn't gonna wanna be known for the guy who messed up sabbath's production lol.
            A few questions for you guys....
            Can ozzy still hit high(ish) notes, cause his last 2 solo albums he seemed flat but that may of been production/ backing music.
            Will amazon sell the ultra deluxe version of the new album?
            Do you think they'll be another album after this with bill ward?
            Do you rate wilks?( I do, think dave grohl would of fit too.)
            What will you all be drinking on June 10th

            ---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

            Originally posted by Josef_K View Post
            haha imagine if I had those expectations... If the new album is half as good as either TE or NSD it's a success for me. I guess you don't like those albums as much as I do. As for the box set, I don't get your reference to master of reality. Do you mean the 180g 2LP deluxe edition of MoR? I have that set, it's great, I wasn't expecting any specific inverted vertigo label or anything when I bought it, just a great looking package and the great bonus tracks along with incredible sound quality (as "good" as the sound quality gets with that muddy production, but that muddiness is a great part of the charm of the album for me so of course I wasn't expecting "good" production in the sense of it sounding clear and sparkly).

            I also rate technical ecstasy highly( not never say die though), but this album WILL be a direct follow on from sabotage with any luck, the masters of reality vinyl was part of that latest box set, it's been done on the cheap with the inlay sleeves etc, I'm sure sound quality is good though cause it's on the 180g vinyl. Just need a record player now lol.
            I got those cd miniatures box set too, but don't own the black box one.
            Vote leave if u want totally cool either way

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            • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
              Of course Tony was going to say that, he's going to defend his band, and he probbaly didn't see things the same way.. but it was a well known fact, that Van Heln's energy and new sound made Sabbath look and sound even more old hat than they already were... Warner Bros' wasn't interested in BS any longer, they milked the name for as long as they could then moved on withut them... TM Sab was distributed by IRS Records... a small amatuerist company that did nothing for Sabbath's sales...the death knell was being rung on the original hard rock gods... Purple, Zep and the Sab's were all being buried... let's face it, Dio Sab was a completely different band and injected new life, and Ozzy was solo, Pruple broke up into White Snake... and so on... had history been a little bit different, this would be the first BLACK SABBATH album in 35 years.. literally.. Dio Sab and onward, though called BS, could easily have been called something else as none of them really sounded like the original band...
              I think it is important to differentiate between fact and opinion. It is not a "well known fact" when something like you're discussing is entirely subjective.

              And to this day, there are people who saw shows from that tour who would disagree with you. In the UK, in particular I've heard stories of VH not going down very well or just being ignored as people drank and waited for the Sabs. In the US, there were some shows where some felt that VH upstaged Sabbath and yes, Sabbath were thought to be past their "prime" by some folks, but you can't paint a history of a group the way you are attempting. It's not like chronicling the past week's weather.
              "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
              -WTB

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                Of course Tony was going to say that, he's going to defend his band, and he probbaly didn't see things the same way.. but it was a well known fact, that Van Heln's energy and new sound made Sabbath look and sound even more old hat than they already were... Warner Bros' wasn't interested in BS any longer, they milked the name for as long as they could then moved on withut them... TM Sab was distributed by IRS Records... a small amatuerist company that did nothing for Sabbath's sales...the death knell was being rung on the original hard rock gods... Purple, Zep and the Sab's were all being buried... let's face it, Dio Sab was a completely different band and injected new life, and Ozzy was solo, Pruple broke up into White Snake... and so on... had history been a little bit different, this would be the first BLACK SABBATH album in 35 years.. literally.. Dio Sab and onward, though called BS, could easily have been called something else as none of them really sounded like the original band...
                I couldn't agree more.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                  I think it is important to differentiate between fact and opinion. It is not a "well known fact" when something like you're discussing is entirely subjective.

                  And to this day, there are people who saw shows from that tour who would disagree with you. In the UK, in particular I've heard stories of VH not going down very well or just being ignored as people drank and waited for the Sabs. In the US, there were some shows where some felt that VH upstaged Sabbath and yes, Sabbath were thought to be past their "prime" by some folks, but you can't paint a history of a group the way you are attempting. It's not like chronicling the past week's weather.
                  To solve this riddle, maybe we need to look at whose career was entering a downward spiral, and whose career was beginning a meteoric rise to fame at the time. I can certainly comment on that, as I was there, and part of the record buying public at the time. One thing I will guarantee you is honesty over loyalty, every time, despite the fact that I love Sabbath.

                  And not to pretend to be a quasi-mod here, but it might be advisable to move this discussion to the Free For All thread, just to stay on the good side of the powers that be. I'm guilty too.
                  Last edited by Now in Darkness; 03-20-2013, 04:09 PM.
                  Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                    it was a well known fact, that Van Heln's energy and new sound made Sabbath look and sound even more old hat than they already were...
                    I saw that show in Portland Oregon and I didn't see anything like what you describe - and I was actually worried at the time that the crowd might not be into Sabbath - since all my friends seemed to be into VH. Van Halen was good and the crowd seemed to be pretty into them, but the crowd's reaction to Sabbath was on another level that night - and in the parking lot after the show, all I heard was Sabbath blaring from the speakers - no VH. So, at least in one town, Sabbath brought it.
                    In the fields the bodies burning, as the war machine keeps turning.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Now in Darkness View Post
                      To solve this riddle, maybe we need to look at whose career was entering a downward spiral, and whose career was beginning a meteoric rise to fame at the time. I can certainly comment on that, as I was there, and part of the record buying public at the time. One thing I will guarantee you is honesty over loyalty, every time, despite the fact that I love Sabbath.
                      "Career path" has nothing to do with it. It simply isn't possible to state that one band was young and hungry and another tired when it comes to live performance and then qualify that as fact. This is entirely subjective perception and there is no way to get around that reality.

                      I'm done with this bizarre topic other than to say I still feel that Sabbath's "woes" in 1978 have been greatly exaggerated with the passage of time. It makes a better story. The Portland show described by Wall Of Sleep is an example right in this very thread but there are obviously plenty of others ...

                      I'm not arguing that Sabbath were not suffering challenges in direction in the late 70s and their popularity declining, I just don't find it necessary to act like a band touring the world as they were and still with huge amounts of interest was supporting the "Puppet Show" at a county fair.
                      "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
                      -WTB

                      Comment


                      • I saw the Sabbath with special guest Van Halen tour in San Antonio, 1978. Sabbath were the better band, louder, more powerful. I think this Van Halen smoked Sabbath story is being overly hyped, certainly shouldn't be presented as a "fact." The truth in my experience is that Van Halen was an enjoyable and strong opening act, but it was clear who the headliner was, and why they were the headliner. The biggest crowd noise of the entire night was when Ozzy said, "That disco fucking sucks!" Sab did have some amp problems, the result of which was that Bill Ward played a very long drum solo, it was cool. They fixed the problem and Sab came back loud as hell -- the crowd went nuts for the final hour of that show. I think if you want to know who was better then, look at who is better now. Sabbath would still headline over them if they played this year, and it would be clear to everyone why Sabbath was headlining: better songs and Ozzy's unparalleled hysteria-inducing charisma.

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                        • I hate to say some people are in denial but the proof is in the record sales. Van Halen sold 10 million copies of that first album. Yes, I love both Sabbath and Van Halen but i have to be honest. After 10 years of constant touring and all the legal hassles with their lawyers and old managers ripping them off, too much alcohol ,drugs and women ,Ozzy was depressed because his dad died, The guys were tired and burned out. They all kepted getting sick when they were recording NSD. Eddie was the best guitarist to hit the scene since Hendrix. Nobody had ever seen anyone play like him before . And that first VH album was ground breaking so i can understand why they were hot. I like to compare that situation to the Jimi Hendrix Experience and The Who. When Hendrix first arrived in england and released Are You Experienced, Everybody panicked. The Who released , The Who Sell Out, which sold terribly. The JHE blew the Who off the stage at monterey. The Who almost broke up but Pete Townsend stayed calm and wrote Tommy. It became a hit and then they released Who Are You . And the rest is rock n roll history. The end of the Ozzy era was a rough one. They fired Ozzy and they almost broke up. But Tony stayed cool and didnt panic. He was smart enough to bring Dio into the band, Sabbath made a comeback with 2 hit albums and The rest is rock n roll history.
                          Last edited by scorpio 2000; 03-20-2013, 10:38 PM.

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                          • Who cares about Van Halen anyway?

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                            • Is there a moderator for this thread?

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                              • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                                I think it is important to differentiate between fact and opinion. It is not a "well known fact" when something like you're discussing is entirely subjective.

                                And to this day, there are people who saw shows from that tour who would disagree with you. In the UK, in particular I've heard stories of VH not going down very well or just being ignored as people drank and waited for the Sabs. In the US, there were some shows where some felt that VH upstaged Sabbath and yes, Sabbath were thought to be past their "prime" by some folks, but you can't paint a history of a group the way you are attempting. It's not like chronicling the past week's weather.
                                I'm not painting anything that already hasn't been documented, includeing Wikipedia on the subject we're discussing... NowInDarkness' comparo to The Who & Hendrix was spot on... I'm a fan but not afraid to call a spade a spade... BS touring on their last and arguably worst ever Ozzy era record, VH opening up with the most dynamic pioneering guitarist since Jimi James Hendrix... it was what it was...

                                In the UK the NSD album reached #12, one place higher than Technical Ecstasy. In the US it peaked at number 69 on the Billboard Pop Album chart.[7] It was certified Gold on 7 November 1997.[

                                That said, to this day, Iommi & Eddie VH are great friends!
                                "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                                R. Blackmore

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