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Do Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy unfairly undermine Bill's contributions to Black Sabbath?

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  • #31
    In the recent radio interview in New Zealand, Ozzy claims he doesn't remember really why Bill isn't part of the reunion. Why would he say that, or is it that he actually doesn't know? I don't really know how to make sense of it in either case.

    The blood runs free
    The rain turns red
    Give me the wine you keep the bread

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    • #32
      Not sure on the politics behind the whole bill situation but....

      BILL on the very slim chance you may actually read this please give the guys a call and join them on the tour!, they have said that the door is always open, so go put the bill ward twist on the new songs as only you can!. Fk money, the fans know YOUR the only sabbath drummer that matters.

      We love and miss you dude.
      Vote leave if u want totally cool either way

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      • #33
        Originally posted by UnderTheSun View Post
        In the recent radio interview in New Zealand, Ozzy claims he doesn't remember really why Bill isn't part of the reunion. Why would he say that, or is it that he actually doesn't know? I don't really know how to make sense of it in either case.
        Maybe because its all over and done & not worth dwelling upon further?

        Things are bad enough between Bill & the guys.. the constant barrage of questions (If not answered very tactfully) could result in more unnecessary drama. Who knows what could happen? Maybe if 13 does well they'll unearth the tapes from 12 years ago and in that event Bill CAN be available to tour in support of that?

        Im in agreement with all who want Bill involved. Seems to me though the constant questions about their drummer, when Bill himself has already posted the details online is just like an impish brat poking a beehive with a stick.
        The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by devstorm View Post
          Prove this.
          Thank you for responding 'devstorm'. It's great to see that some are still commenting on this particular thread. I'm well aware that this is a very touchy subject with Black Sabbath fans, but that's what fandom is all about. Great dialogue-BOTH PRO AND CON-is what makes a TRUE fan base, to my thinking. Having said that, to your point, just take a look at the latest promo photo: no Bill Ward to be found! The old adage of " a picture being worth a thousand words" easily applies here. Frankly, that's all the "proof" you need. Great comment by the way.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
            just take a look at the latest promo photo: no Bill Ward to be found! The old adage of " a picture being worth a thousand words" easily applies here. Frankly, that's all the "proof" you need. Great comment by the way.
            Your logic is so seriously flawed... why would they take a promo picture with someone who's not participating in the band? Furthermore Bill Ward issued a request to NOT be pictured on the Sabbath web site. SO WHY WOULD THEY INVOLVE HIM? So how is that undermining Bills contributions? So you're saying that not putting Bill in a picture completely erases his drumming from Master of Reality, Or his vocals from Technical Ecstasy?

            I dont need to rehash the details... suffice to say for whatever the reason, BILL WARD has had a falling out with Black Sabbath. To put it into terms you might understand, Bill Ward dumped Sabbath's offer to come back to work. Have you had a job where you felt disgruntled, or treated unfairly? Would you return to that job if they made you an offer to come back for a fraction of what you were paid the first time you worked there?
            The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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            • #36
              The Bill Ward is a touchy subject, it was for me too, I had the attitude no Bill No Sabbath.

              But you know what, Mr. Bill Ward had the opportunity to be a part of this historical event, and he chose not to be, because of some supposed unsignable contract, the way I look at, he should've done it for the fans if the contract was unsignable and have this new record 13 with his name on it for eternity.

              And as I come to see, I doubt it his 3 mates would've screwed him over with a contract that was unsignable.

              Bill didn't think about the fans who love him so much, he is my favorite all time drummer, but Sabbath is my favorite all time band and they are giving us loyal fans an album with the original frontman after 35 years, and I am happy and thrilled about that.
              "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
              "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
              ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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              • #37
                I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?
                "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                R. Blackmore

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                  I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?
                  That is unimaginable and unthinkable of the riff-meister.
                  "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                  "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                  ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by devstorm View Post
                    the constant barrage of questions

                    What constant barrage of questions? I keep waiting for these journalists to ask deep probing questions - you know try to get to the bottom of the whole thing - but they all skirt the issue. If they do bother to ask, they just accept whatever answer is given with no follow up.

                    Journalists these days don't really dig too deep into anything though so...
                    In the fields the bodies burning, as the war machine keeps turning.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by devstorm View Post
                      Your logic is so seriously flawed... why would they take a promo picture with someone who's not participating in the band? Furthermore Bill Ward issued a request to NOT be pictured on the Sabbath web site. SO WHY WOULD THEY INVOLVE HIM? So how is that undermining Bills contributions? So you're saying that not putting Bill in a picture completely erases his drumming from Master of Reality, Or his vocals from Technical Ecstasy?

                      I dont need to rehash the details... suffice to say for whatever the reason, BILL WARD has had a falling out with Black Sabbath. To put it into terms you might understand, Bill Ward dumped Sabbath's offer to come back to work. Have you had a job where you felt disgruntled, or treated unfairly? Would you return to that job if they made you an offer to come back for a fraction of what you were paid the first time you worked there?

                      Hi 'devstorm' , perhaps I didn't explain myself correctly. When I say that Ozzy is "MORE than content with only 3/4 of "Black Sabbath" I simply mean that Ozzy truly DOESN'T think that "there is ONLY ONE Black Sabbath: Butler, Iommi, Osbourne, AND WARD". He clearly thinks that Black Sabbath can exist as a trio AND as a NEW INCARNATION, whether anybody wants to believe that or not. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. Clearly, to me anyway, this blatantly implies that Bill truly is expendable in Ozzy's mind. In other words 'devstorm', by agreeing to go out as "Black Sabbath" with a new drummer, it shows that there obviously isn't "only ONE Black Sabbath", as Ozzy NOTORIOUSLY has said since 1997, if not longer. MY opinion, mind you.

                      All this said, I'm still looking tremendously forward to the new album and tour. But, like it or not, as of this writing, it is NOT the ORIGINAL Black Sabbath. Great comment on your part, by the way! I enjoyed reading your point-of-view, even if we disagree. Thanks BSO!

                      ---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 AM ----------

                      Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                      I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?
                      Good point. The tour WOULD NOT BE TAKING PLACE AT ALL if the situations were reversed, no matter where you stand on this issue.
                      Last edited by A Sabbath Historian; 05-02-2015, 02:42 PM.

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                      • #41
                        You know I think it's really a dangerous thing to speak on Ozzy's behalf 'Sabbath Historian,' particularly a fan who doesn't know all the facts. I think it's wrong for anyone not involved to draw conclusions whatsoever.

                        Yes it would have been a real sign of brotherhood, or solidarity if the other three declared "If Bill isn't involved we aren't doing it." But guess what..if they said that, and never made new music, someone here would come up with some other sort of ridiculous presumptions, and state them as fact.

                        Yes, they also could have renamed the band. But guess what? This site would be full of the conspiracy theories (someone would inevitably declare Sharon is somehow behind it) if that happened as well.

                        I think with Ronnie Dio's passing away the guys got a wake up call that if they don't do it now, the opportunity will be gone for good. It's Black Sabbath by default. Bill has declined the offer, Ozzy didnt kick him out. The band has existed in the past with a variety of members. It's unfortunate that the album won't be a full fledged reunion. But on the other hand it could be worse, they could have pulled something like KISS; Black Sabbath could have re-hired Eric Singer.. and dressed him like Bill Ward
                        The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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                        • #42
                          When you are a historian you know more than the average man

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by devstorm View Post
                            You know I think it's really a dangerous thing to speak on Ozzy's behalf 'Sabbath Historian,' particularly a fan who doesn't know all the facts. I think it's wrong for anyone not involved to draw conclusions whatsoever.

                            Yes it would have been a real sign of brotherhood, or solidarity if the other three declared "If Bill isn't involved we aren't doing it." But guess what..if they said that, and never made new music, someone here would come up with some other sort of ridiculous presumptions, and state them as fact.

                            Yes, they also could have renamed the band. But guess what? This site would be full of the conspiracy theories (someone would inevitably declare Sharon is somehow behind it) if that happened as well.

                            I think with Ronnie Dio's passing away the guys got a wake up call that if they don't do it now, the opportunity will be gone for good. It's Black Sabbath by default. Bill has declined the offer, Ozzy didnt kick him out. The band has existed in the past with a variety of members. It's unfortunate that the album won't be a full fledged reunion. But on the other hand it could be worse, they could have pulled something like KISS; Black Sabbath could have re-hired Eric Singer.. and dressed him like Bill Ward
                            Very well said. I agree fully. Bill hasn't been replaced; instead, a contract player stood in for him. Bill has been welcomed to walk through the "open door" at any time, and sort out the issues that have precluded his involvement in "13".
                            Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

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                            • #44
                              Listening to "God Is Dead"....I don't hear anything on there that Bill could not have performed. That being said - there's been a tremendous amount of effort put into achieving that "Bill Ward" vibe without actually having Bill Ward present. The thought of trying to record 13 without Bill was obviously a big deal for Rick Rubin. The "drummer" topic was a big topic in the studio and I'm sure the selection process wasn't easy either. Watching the recent live performances on youtube also show the importance of Bill without Bill. Tommy was obviously doing his homework while the band was recording. His approach is much more Bill like and his kit even looks like Bill's circa 1975 (sans the color). In my opinion there's been a lot of effort into capturing the whole Bill Ward vibe which says to me that Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy understand how important it is to have as much of that vibe present without actually having Bill there.

                              Lawyers suck and I believe it was lawyers who screwed the deal thinking they would get a big pay day.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tha Beast View Post
                                Listening to "God Is Dead"....I don't hear anything on there that Bill could not have performed. That being said - there's been a tremendous amount of effort put into achieving that "Bill Ward" vibe without actually having Bill Ward present. The thought of trying to record 13 without Bill was obviously a big deal for Rick Rubin. The "drummer" topic was a big topic in the studio and I'm sure the selection process wasn't easy either. Watching the recent live performances on youtube also show the importance of Bill without Bill. Tommy was obviously doing his homework while the band was recording. His approach is much more Bill like and his kit even looks like Bill's circa 1975 (sans the color). In my opinion there's been a lot of effort into capturing the whole Bill Ward vibe which says to me that Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy understand how important it is to have as much of that vibe present without actually having Bill there.

                                Lawyers suck and I believe it was lawyers who screwed the deal thinking they would get a big pay day.
                                Lawyers do suck, but at the end of the day the person or persons paying the lawyer have the last say, the lawyers are representing the person whom they were hired to defend or represent.
                                "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                                "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                                ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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