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Do Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy unfairly undermine Bill's contributions to Black Sabbath?

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  • Do Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy unfairly undermine Bill's contributions to Black Sabbath?

    My debut "new thread" question since I joined BSO! I will start by answering...YES! Frankly, the hypocrisy of Ozzy in particular is SHAMEFUL! Here is a man who has stated constantly that "there is only ONE Black Sabbath-Iommi, Butler, Osbourne, and Ward!", when in reality (no pun intended) he's MORE than content with just 3/4 of "Black Sabbath". So much for Bill being Ozzy's "closest friend" in Sabbath! Anyway, let the discussion begin! Thanks BSO!

  • #2
    Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    My debut "new thread" question since I joined BSO! I will start by answering...YES! Frankly, the hypocrisy of Ozzy in particular is SHAMEFUL! Here is a man who has stated constantly that "there is only ONE Black Sabbath-Iommi, Butler, Osbourne, and Ward!", when in reality (no pun intended) he's MORE than content with just 3/4 of "Black Sabbath". So much for Bill being Ozzy's "closest friend" in Sabbath! Anyway, let the discussion begin! Thanks BSO!
    Ozzy isn't the only member of Black Sabbath that matters and he certainly wasn't going to screw over Geezer and Tony when Bill fell through. So i guess you wont be buying the album

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    • #3
      I disagree Sabbath Historian. Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill to be a part of this venture, but Bill backed out for his own reasons. I am sure that Ozzy's opinion of what constitutes Black Sabbath has not changed, but circumstances resulted in Bill opting out late in the day; that doesn't mean that they can't be friends still. Business and friendship can be two different things. There is no poison being espoused in the media by these guys, and all 4 members have preserved the dignity of one another in their public comments, so I don't see this as hypocritical. I also fully believe that Bill will be back in the future. Keep in mind that they wrote songs for a year when Bill opted out; by that time it was probably too late to consider scrapping the entire project. If Bill had opted out from day 1, there is a chance that the others would not have re-formed at all. I sense that you are stirring the pot a bit here and aren't as strongly opinionated as your post suggests.
      Last edited by Now in Darkness; 03-10-2013, 10:00 PM.
      Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Now in Darkness View Post
        Business and friendship can be two different things.
        That's part of the problem i think (without knowing anything ofcourse). It seems like this was all business when it should've been dealt with through friendship. As stated before on these forums, why couldn't one of them just pick up the phone ang go: "look dude...." instead of it all going through managers, "representatives" and lawyers? They've been friends since '67 for Gods sake. Tony and Bill even a few years longer...
        95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
        Til Šrs ok friūar ok forn siūr

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        • #5
          fuckin sick subject ,so hurt for bill and fans cause they had enough money for kids to inherit ,it could have been more special for them then us, what is sick is wanting to hear new recording and not wanting to hear recordings cause it's 3/4th of black sabbath, so is it really black sabbath????????

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          • #6
            IMO it's impossible to know the answer until all of them disclose the information...
            Do you hear the thunder raging in the sky?
            Premonition of a shattered world thatís gonna die.
            In the age of reason, how do we survive?
            The protocols of evil ravaging so many lives?

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            • #7
              I believe this was a convenient out for Bill just read some of Tonys concerns before the announcement. Also take the failed H&H audition into account.

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              • #8
                This subject has been discussed here per nausium... there are opinions on both sides of the issue, Ward chose not to participate end of story.. thank God the other 3 have chosen to record a new album... God Bless them...
                "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                R. Blackmore

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                • #9
                  I honestly believe that Bill just isn't up to the rigors of full-time studio and live work. He's darted in and out of the band many times before: he left the band after recording and touring the first leg of 'Heaven And Hell', recorded 'Born Again' but didn't tour behind it, had Vinnie Appice and a few others sit in on drums because of Bill's health troubles and now everything that has gone down after the 11/11/11 announcement.. I'm sure it's never fun to admit to yourself that maybe you no longer quite have the stamina, strength and chops to be Bill Ward, the percussionist of Black Sabbath anymore. That, and maybe he would have held up the momentum of writing, recording and touring.

                  No one's getting any younger, and especially with Tony battling lymphoma, time is of the essence. Yeah, it's not the full, original Ozzy-era Black Sabbath, but Ozzy, Tony and Geezer playing with a truly incredible drummer like Brad Wilk is also pretty cool by me. I'm over moaning and whining about the lack of Bill. Bill *chose* not to participate (not to be redundant to what you wrote above, Wicked Cricket)! People should be shitting on him for that, rather than shitting on the other three. I just hope Brad Wilk tours with the band. He was part of the recording process for the new album. I'd very much like to hear him touring the album with the rest of the band.

                  The band really seems focused, determined and on it for this album to be completed, and to succeed. All of the public drama aside, I honestly think that Bill just isn't up for it all anymore, and that that is what's going on. It's sad, because you'd think all four of them would bandy together, if for no other reason than to all be there to support Tony through his illness. The more info I hear about '13', the more genuinely excited I am to hear and experience this album. Peace.

                  ---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

                  Originally posted by mikesline View Post
                  fuckin sick subject ,so hurt for bill and fans cause they had enough money for kids to inherit ,it could have been more special for them then us, what is sick is wanting to hear new recording and not wanting to hear recordings cause it's 3/4th of black sabbath, so is it really black sabbath????????
                  3/4 is better than nothing, and, Yes, it's still Black Sabbath.

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                  • #10
                    yeah i know 3/4 is better then nothing that's the pain i'm talking about,the wheels of confusion rolls on.............

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                    • #11
                      It's 75% better than nothing!
                      "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                      R. Blackmore

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Now in Darkness View Post
                        I disagree Sabbath Historian. Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill to be a part of this venture, but Bill backed out for his own reasons. I am sure that Ozzy's opinion of what constitutes Black Sabbath has not changed, but circumstances resulted in Bill opting out late in the day; that doesn't mean that they can't be friends still. Business and friendship can be two different things. There is no poison being espoused in the media by these guys, and all 4 members have preserved the dignity of one another in their public comments, so I don't see this as hypocritical. I also fully believe that Bill will be back in the future. Keep in mind that they wrote songs for a year when Bill opted out; by that time it was probably too late to consider scrapping the entire project. If Bill had opted out from day 1, there is a chance that the others would not have re-formed at all. I sense that you are stirring the pot a bit here and aren't as strongly opinionated as your post suggests.

                        Interesting comment, 'N.I.D.'...the play on acronym IS intentional, by the way! Thank you for responding. You are ABSOLUTELY correct when you say that my post isn't as "strongly opinionated" as it suggests,.. OR as it might be interpreted, take your pick. However, I do think that, if the situation were reversed with Bill in and Ozzy out, does anybody really believe that the upcoming new album would go out under the Black Sabbath name? Frankly, if they even attempted to try Ozzy would be having a FIELD DAY in the press! Do you remember the lawsuit back in May 2009 between him and Tony? That is where I believe the hypocrisy stems from, 'N.I.D.' When all is said and done, the guys are bickering over money, plain and simple. Ultimately, in my opinion, since 1998 Ozzy has had the upper hand, legally speaking, when it comes to the "business" of Black Sabbath. I guess the "massive inferiority complex" that writer Mick Wall once claimed Ozzy had disappeared once he rejoined Sabbath!


                        I remember when Ozzy plead to Tony in 2009 to "do the right thing" regarding the rights to the Sabbath name and ALL FOUR MEMBERS being properly compensated as they've gotten older. I think he should take his own advice and "do the right thing" ...for Bill. By the way, great comments everybody-BOTH PRO AND CON-on a very touchy subject that we all are passionate about in one way or another! That's the way it should be. That's why we're fans. So, without further ado, continue the discussion if you'd like! Thanks BSO for providing a terrific forum for us!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You make good points Historian. I guess we'll never really know. Fortunately, all 4 Sabs are being fairly quiet and respectful about this topic, so there is hope for a reconciliation at some point. If they didn't care, then I suspect they would all be slinging mud.
                          Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

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                          • #14
                            I've never been an Ozzy solo fan, other than hearing seeing him on MTV way back when, I never bought any of his solo stuff, was always loyal (to a fault) of Iommi's BS.. incarnations... BUT, that said, Ozzy earned his "bigger $hare", so to speak. Ozzy became bigger commercially than Sabbath ever dreamed of after the split, he's a world wide public figure, my 86 yr old mother knows who Ozzy is, her and my now deceased aunt use to watch his TV show... like it or not, IF, and I stress IF... it's about a share of the pie, and Ozzy's is bigger than the rest... so be it... it's because he's singing on this album that it will be/is BIG industry news... the world doesn't know Tony or Geezer or Bill like they know Ozzy, outside Sabbathdom... it's all about Oz... so let's not kid ourselves, if this album was Tony/Geez/Bill and fill in the blank singer... it WOULD NOT be garnishing a fraction of the industry and world interest it is getting now, and it would be a joke to call it Black Sabbath, sorry, the drummer no matter who he is does not make the sound of a band, the singer does, the no.1 recognizable element in ANY band... with the guitar second, a distant 2nd...it's a big deal because Ozzy is in the band... Bill Ward be damned, he's a pimple on most people's ass in terms of his importance to this project... he hasn't recorded jack crack with any Sabbath band since 1983 ,only 30 yrs ago..! and I stress, I was in Iommi''s camp all thru the years after the split... I'm not a Ozzy fanboy, but I am an Ozzy Sabbath fan big time... the fact is, Bill Ward doesn't make or break this deal, Ozzy does... because he's earned it.
                            Last edited by Wicked Cricket; 03-12-2013, 12:44 PM.
                            "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                            R. Blackmore

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                              I've never been an Ozzy solo fan, other than hearing seeing him on MTV way back when, I never bought any of his solo stuff, was always loyal (to a fault) of Iommi's BS.. incarnations... BUT, that said, Ozzy earned his "bigger $hare", so to speak. Ozzy became bigger commercially than Sabbath ever dreamed of after the split, he's a world wide public figure, my 86 yr old mother knows who Ozzy is, her and my now deceased aunt use to watch his TV show... like it or not, IF, and I stress IF... it's about a share of the pie, and Ozzy's is bigger than the rest... so be it... it's because he's singing on this album that it will be/is BIG industry news... the world doesn't know Tony or Geezer or Bill like they know Ozzy, outside Sabbathdom... it's all about Oz... so let's not kid ourselves, if this album was Tony/Geez/Bill and fill in the blank singer... it WOULD NOT be garnishing a fraction of the industry and world interest it is getting now, and it would be a joke to call it Black Sabbath, sorry, the drummer no matter who he is does not make the sound of a band, the singer does, the no.1 recognizable element in ANY band... with the guitar second, a distant 2nd...it's a big deal because Ozzy is in the band... Bill Ward be damned, he's a pimple on most people's ass in terms of his importance to this project... he hasn't recorded jack crack with any Sabbath band since 1983 ,only 30 yrs ago..! and I stress, I was in Iommi''s camp all thru the years after the split... I'm not a Ozzy fanboy, but I am an Ozzy Sabbath fan big time... the fact is, Bill Ward doesn't make or break this deal, Ozzy does... because he's earned it.


                              Thanks for responding 'Wicked Cricket'. I certainly can understand your point of view, but if we're really being honest, these days Ozzy will NEVER be able to fill arenas like he can with Black Sabbath, WITHOUT the "crutch" of Ozzfest. The fact that he is in a stronger financial position should be even more reason to cut out the petty B.S. among ALL FOUR ORIGINAL MEMBERS and at least attempt to come to a more satisfying agreement. To your point, Black Sabbath is NOT the Ozzy Osbourne band. Even Ozzy knows that most fans today would rather see him in Sabbath than on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have sued Tony 4 years ago as I stated in an earlier response. For all intents and purposes, Ozzy knows that Sabbath is in far greater demand these days than he ever would be as a solo artist, or reality T.V. "star", and rightfully so. Great comment though, even though we disagree to an extent. Thanks BSO!

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