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  • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    Been busy in recent days and had a lot of "catching up" here.

    It's always somewhat perplexing to me how people with a confessed lack of in-depth knowledge on a topic will still stride forward with a false narrative that is easily disproved.

    Perhaps even more bizarre is that I've actually come to believe we have a number of people who contribute to this forum where apparently this is the "end all" of their Sabbath knowledge.

    Other fan sites? "Nope." Facebook fan groups with thousands of old photos? "Eh?" Old magazine interviews? "Huh?" Bootlegs? "No clue. I think I have one ..."

    This stuff isn't down to a single factor. First of all, let's forget the modern day and videos like the one for "The End Of The Beginning." Okay? Let's go back to BEFORE things were as "canned" as they are today.

    I don't understand how anyone so committed to a band as to be on a fan forum could be so uneducated about said band. You can read Rolling Stone articles from the early 70s where they are asking girls at Sabbath concerts what the appeal of the music is. You can look at any of thousands of photos from the 70s on dedicated Sabbath fan pages via Facebook. You can listen to audience recordings made from the front of halls, back of halls ... there is SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE to support the notion that 70s Sabbath were exclusively a "guy's band."

    FTR, the notion that Don Kirshner's Rock Concert or Sabbath could have given two shits about who forced their way up front at the Santa Monica Civic in 1975 when they were filmed is when we have to all take inventory of just how far it's reasonable to stretch one's pants to fit into a personalized little narrative.

    At the beginning of this thread, I posted a picture from Sabbath's concert in Tuscon, AZ on March 16, '72. Totally random black and white shot of Tony and Ozzy in concert taken from behind stage left. The front row has chicks. Because Sabbath appealed to some chicks. Any band who was playing the arenas they were was going to draw some females, folks. The "guy's band" narrative should be attached first to certain Punk bands and Thrash bands where in a sea of 500 people it might be hard to find a single girl.

    Don't like video? It was never my intention to refer only to video. Black Sabbath live in the 70s happens to be one of my most treasured musical experiences, so I have a lot of shows. As I've said, there are shows recorded from the audience that have screaming women. They weren't The Beatles. They weren't Rod Stewart. That isn't the point. The point is that they were never Black Flag either.
    Thank you very much, Jeff, for coming back and bringing this thread back on track by clarifying what it is about, and at the same time clarifying your position on the matter.


    Originally posted by zzzptm View Post
    Considering how the Cal Jam promoters thought that having Earth, Wind, and Fire on the same stage as the Eagles and Black Sabbath made perfect sense underlines that "pop music" big tent that covered a lot of music in the 70s. On the radio in the late 70s, I could hear Little River Band right after Black Sabbath and before Grand Funk. The tight songs of The Cars played right next to the sprawling compositions of Led Zeppelin. When the 80s started, Flock of Seagulls got just as much air time as AC/DC.

    But even so, one could tell the difference between The Carpenters and Deep Purple. And while my favorite stations had a pretty good mix, they stuck more with the rock side of things and less with the songs on the more pop-ier side of the spectrum. I didn't hear any Barry Manilow or Wild Cherry on my stations. No disco, either.

    And even with my focus on the rock, there was still what wouldn't ever get played on the radio, the "Underground" stuff. Without any Internet, a fan really had to do some research, face-to-face networking, and exploring those used record stores to find the hidden gems that we can now spin up in 2 seconds with a YouTube search.
    Thanks for your great contributions to this thread. Truly fascinating to hear that kind of first-person accounts from back int he 1980ies or 1970ies. Being born in the late 1970ies, I missed the chance to attend any 1970ies or 1980ies Sabbath show. Which is probably one of the reasons why I collect every single Sabbath recording or video from those eras that I can get. But of course it is never the same as actually having been there.
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 02-07-2018, 03:26 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
      Being born in the late 1970ies, I missed the chance to attend any 1970ies or 1980ies Sabbath show. Which is probably one of the reasons why I collect every single Sabbath recording or video from those eras that I can get. But of course it is never the same as actually having been there.
      You were born in the late 70s? Why, when I was your age, I was much older!

      But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by zzzptm View Post
        You were born in the late 70s? Why, when I was your age, I was much older!

        But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.
        Definitely. If I had to choose one period of 10 years from all music history, I would probably choose 1967 to 1976. That would include some great music from Sabbath, Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, Rainbow and many others... Very sad to lose the H&H album though which is one of my favourite 2 Sabbath albums (MOR being the other one). And of course everything after that... Luckily I don't need to choose, so I can enjoy them all. :-)

        Comment


        • Just summarizing here. Clearly, when you "drop by" and make 12 posts and zero of them reference the topic, you should expect to be banned, or warned at least. If you've been here long enough to know better, you can expect the ban. Keeping this thread open, like any thread that goes off the rails here, goes deeper then outing simple name-calling. Some of you don't like others, don't like their message beyond the topic at hand, or have issues with them that go beyond differences of opinion when it comes to female Sabbath fans.

          No one here is perfect, and most of us have some kind of Achilles heel that shows itself if they contribute long enough. What overrides this dysfunction, for my own moderation purposes, is if the members are Black Sabbath FANS. That comes through more then anything. We are a passionate and knowledgeable bunch, here. There are rules here also, but cracking down on every single possible infraction makes the ongoing task nearly impossible to control, and less fun overall for the members.

          If you contribute positive content here, share extensive knowledge and experiences, and keep a regular presence on the boards, then the good you do may in fact outweigh whatever problems you might cause us or other members. Getting back to Achilles, if your particular vice has also at one time impacted the band or other fans, it is hard to dismiss it in hand. Religion, drug use, misogyny, isolation, these topics are relevant here, and many members have personal experiences that lend a passionate point of view to one or all of these areas of discussion. For one member, drugs led them to Sabbath. For some others, Sabbath got them clean again. Some feel strength in the bonding of what has been a male-dominated fanbase. For some of us, Black Sabbath was the only friend we had growing up.

          This is all very powerful stuff, and our own experiences that differ from others can lead to chaotic discussions here. But, in terms of the good outweighing the bad, ask yourself: Do you really love Black Sabbath? Now ask yourself again. In a mirror. Do you REALLY love the band? If you answered Yes, then the good of you being here will outweigh the bad, as I see it. Carry on.
          Damian
          Super Moderator
          Black-Sabbath.com

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          • Originally posted by zzzptm View Post

            But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.
            IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

            Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

            I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.
            "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
            -WTB

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
              IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

              Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

              I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.
              That's a very good point, one I hadn't previously considered. We're really quite lucky that the band members have been able to perform so well for so long. I look at Glen Campbell (country singer in the USA, for those not familiar) doing his last tour with Alzheimer's and his family members in the band gently reminding him about which songs he already played or about how a solo was supposed to go. Once his lightbulb went back on, he was brilliant again.

              Some performers, though, seem to not really care any more - or they seem to be going in a direction we totally didn't expect. Ritchie Blackmore comes to mind. Absolutely brilliant on stage from 1968-1986, and then it's clear his heart was moving in another direction. There's what paid the bills and then there was what he *really* wanted to do. If I wanted to introduce someone to Blackmore, I would absolutely avoid footage from his recent concerts and instead go with his Cal Jam work or the Copenhagen 1972 concert.

              With Sabbath's recent performances, it's more of a "You think that's good? Well, try this..." than a "Oh, don't judge them by that..." sort of situation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                Now to be fair to you all, and to better understand my experience: I have not gone to any of the Black Sabbath concerts. The last Sabbath show I saw was Cross Purposes.
                I'm still laughing at this little nugget of a quote, particularly after seeing you trash Ozzy on Blabbermouth as often as you can. It's just so...typical internet guy. "Hey, I stopped watching (insert TV show here) 6 seasons ago because it's stupid, but I just saw a commercial and lemme tell ya what I think!"
                ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

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                • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                  Definitely. If I had to choose one period of 10 years from all music history, I would probably choose 1967 to 1976. That would include some great music from Sabbath, Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, Rainbow and many others...
                  To me it's '65 - '75. The Beatles, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (both Barret era and Prog era), David Bowie, Zeppelin, Purple and so on... Can do without Rainbow for two reasons, as good as they were. Need i mention the vocal style? And that, with the way they presented the music, was the forerunner for alot of the Power Metal crap that came in the 80's and 90's. Ofcourse there's some overlapping in mentioned bands, Beatles were good pre '65, Pink Floyd were great up till Animals ('77) and along with The Man Who Sold The World, Bowies best albums are Hours... ('99) and Heathen ('02). And i like late 70's Punk, 80's Extreme Metal (including Thrash) and early 90's Black Metal, Groove Metal and Grunge. But the best decade overall was '65 - '75.

                  Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                  IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

                  Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

                  I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.
                  A good litmus test is "did you become a fan before, after or because of The Osbournes?"...
                  95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                  Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                    To me it's '65 - '75. The Beatles, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (both Barret era and Prog era), David Bowie, Zeppelin, Purple and so on... Can do without Rainbow for two reasons, as good as they were. Need i mention the vocal style? And that, with the way they presented the music, was the forerunner for alot of the Power Metal crap that came in the 80's and 90's. Ofcourse there's some overlapping in mentioned bands, Beatles were good pre '65, Pink Floyd were great up till Animals ('77) and along with The Man Who Sold The World, Bowies best albums are Hours... ('99) and Heathen ('02). And i like late 70's Punk, 80's Extreme Metal (including Thrash) and early 90's Black Metal, Groove Metal and Grunge. But the best decade overall was '65 - '75.
                    When I have to list bands that I like, I always forget some. That's what happened with Pink Floyd when I listed bands above. I would include several DP songs too, and uncounted songs of uncounted other bands. I know you don't like RJD's vocal style, and that's fine, but I do, and if I have to do without the H&H album, then at least Rainbow Rising has to be included. :-)
                    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 02-07-2018, 11:49 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                      When I have to list bands that I like, I always forget some. That's what happened with Pink Floyd when I listed bands above. I would include several DP songs too, and uncounted songs of uncounted other bands. I know you don't like RJD's vocal style, and that's fine, but I do, and if I have to do withpit the H&H album, then at least Rainbow Rising has to be included. :-)
                      I ofcourse forget many too, and if any of us were to mention every single band, we'd spend the night derailing an already crazy off-the-rails train
                      95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                      Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hipster doofus View Post
                        I'm still laughing at this little nugget of a quote, particularly after seeing you trash Ozzy on Blabbermouth as often as you can. It's just so...typical internet guy. "Hey, I stopped watching (insert TV show here) 6 seasons ago because it's stupid, but I just saw a commercial and lemme tell ya what I think!"
                        It's not like that at all, because boots and youtube videos are freely available, and I've listened to many.

                        Ozzy can't sing anymore, and not for a long time, and what little singing he does he does in an awful, muddy key.

                        You're laughing at ME? You're the one handing over your money to have your ears molested by that noise.

                        Sure, the band is fantastic, but some warbling tone deaf wagon-faller-offer up there out of his mind vocally urinating on the songs I love really takes me out of the experience.

                        Now if I were deaf and wanted to see a 70 year old do jumping jacks on stage, I guess I'd be writing a check.

                        On the other hand, I'm really pissed at myself for not seeing Heaven and Hell when I had the chance. However, I've had a good fill of live Dio and I didn't really think the setlist would compare to what I saw at "Master of the Moon" tour in an intimate setting.

                        Anyway, laugh all you like, it's like when my Daughter makes fun of me because I don't like Taylor Swift. (Much)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                          I ofcourse forget many too, and if any of us were to mention every single band, we'd spend the night derailing an already crazy off-the-rails train
                          Did you know that "Crazy Train" uses the same bass line at the opening as does "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" by The Temptations?



                          If I go off-topic, I do it with a first-class ticket.

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                          • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                            It's not like that at all, because boots and youtube videos are freely available, and I've listened to many.

                            Ozzy can't sing anymore, and not for a long time, and what little singing he does he does in an awful, muddy key.

                            You're laughing at ME? You're the one handing over your money to have your ears molested by that noise.

                            Sure, the band is fantastic, but some warbling tone deaf wagon-faller-offer up there out of his mind vocally urinating on the songs I love really takes me out of the experience.

                            Now if I were deaf and wanted to see a 70 year old do jumping jacks on stage, I guess I'd be writing a check.

                            On the other hand, I'm really pissed at myself for not seeing Heaven and Hell when I had the chance. However, I've had a good fill of live Dio and I didn't really think the setlist would compare to what I saw at "Master of the Moon" tour in an intimate setting.

                            Anyway, laugh all you like, it's like when my Daughter makes fun of me because I don't like Taylor Swift. (Much)

                            I think Ozzy still sounds great, always has.
                            "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                            "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                            ________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                            • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                              Now if I were deaf and wanted to see a 70 year old do jumping jacks on stage,
                              Sorry, that should read *half-hearted jumping jacks* please accept my correction.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                                I think Ozzy still sounds great, always has.
                                I'm not exactly sure how I knew, but I did, that you might take that position.

                                The question always remains: can you not hear the cracking and the off-keyness and the massively dropped key, or do you willfully ignore it in order to have a good time?

                                I'm pitch-perfect (or at least was, I'm getting a little Ozzy myself in my advancing age) (note: I can't sing pitch perfect but I hear pitch perfect and can imagine the correct pitch and tune to it straight out of my head) and when someone is off-key it is like nails on a blackboard.

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