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  • Originally posted by Sicko FanAtic View Post
    That would be one hell of an experiment! Way to think outside the box on that one. My inkling is that the differences are more societal than biological, but that's just an inkling.

    Thanks, but I failed to consider: Transgendered people are already operating at a certain opposite sexual polarity before taking a hormone...so the Born-Man might already prefer more typically "feminine" music and same with the born-Woman.

    early results show hormone therapy did not produce a change in musical tastes, but that's only 2 results lol.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
      Been busy in recent days and had a lot of "catching up" here.

      It's always somewhat perplexing to me how people with a confessed lack of in-depth knowledge on a topic will still stride forward with a false narrative that is easily disproved.

      Perhaps even more bizarre is that I've actually come to believe we have a number of people who contribute to this forum where apparently this is the "end all" of their Sabbath knowledge.

      Other fan sites? "Nope." Facebook fan groups with thousands of old photos? "Eh?" Old magazine interviews? "Huh?" Bootlegs? "No clue. I think I have one ..."

      This stuff isn't down to a single factor. First of all, let's forget the modern day and videos like the one for "The End Of The Beginning." Okay? Let's go back to BEFORE things were as "canned" as they are today.

      I don't understand how anyone so committed to a band as to be on a fan forum could be so uneducated about said band. You can read Rolling Stone articles from the early 70s where they are asking girls at Sabbath concerts what the appeal of the music is. You can look at any of thousands of photos from the 70s on dedicated Sabbath fan pages via Facebook. You can listen to audience recordings made from the front of halls, back of halls ... there is SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE to support the notion that 70s Sabbath were exclusively a "guy's band."

      FTR, the notion that Don Kirshner's Rock Concert or Sabbath could have given two shits about who forced their way up front at the Santa Monica Civic in 1975 when they were filmed is when we have to all take inventory of just how far it's reasonable to stretch one's pants to fit into a personalized little narrative.

      At the beginning of this thread, I posted a picture from Sabbath's concert in Tuscon, AZ on March 16, '72. Totally random black and white shot of Tony and Ozzy in concert taken from behind stage left. The front row has chicks. Because Sabbath appealed to some chicks. Any band who was playing the arenas they were was going to draw some females, folks. The "guy's band" narrative should be attached first to certain Punk bands and Thrash bands where in a sea of 500 people it might be hard to find a single girl.

      Don't like video? It was never my intention to refer only to video. Black Sabbath live in the 70s happens to be one of my most treasured musical experiences, so I have a lot of shows. As I've said, there are shows recorded from the audience that have screaming women. They weren't The Beatles. They weren't Rod Stewart. That isn't the point. The point is that they were never Black Flag either.
      I don't think that calling Ozzy-era Sabbath a "guy's band" means that the band only appealed to guys.i don't know, maybe that is what whoever said that meant... In what context was that said? You mentioned Ozzy's book I believe, and some comments on a live video of EoTB. That Sabbath in the 70s appealed mostly to guys would not be refuted by some pictures and audio that show there were also females. Some females and mostly guys I would imagine. Which still would make it mostly a "guy's band". I'm not sure what I'm arguing against here because I'm not certain what the actual argument is, so I'll stop for now.
      You bought and sold me with your lying words.
      Phil, your head's all full of lice!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
        In today's political climate, are we allowed to even suggest or research scientifically that there might be a difference between men and women?
        Of course I don't know about the political climate, nor about science, in your hometown and how they relate, but in the world as a whole there are uncountable scientific studies carried out about that kind of stuff (and pretty much everything else).

        Originally posted by Sicko FanAtic View Post
        I don't think that calling Ozzy-era Sabbath a "guy's band" means that the band only appealed to guys.i don't know, maybe that is what whoever said that meant... In what context was that said? You mentioned Ozzy's book I believe, and some comments on a live video of EoTB. That Sabbath in the 70s appealed mostly to guys would not be refuted by some pictures and audio that show there were also females. Some females and mostly guys I would imagine. Which still would make it mostly a "guy's band". I'm not sure what I'm arguing against here because I'm not certain what the actual argument is, so I'll stop for now.
        Jeff explained the topic of this thread in his first few posts on page one.

        Originally posted by Damian View Post
        Just summarizing here. Clearly, when you "drop by" and make 12 posts and zero of them reference the topic, you should expect to be banned, or warned at least. .
        Thanks for intervening, Damian. It's appreciated. We've had several fights in this thread, but "Sin Cardinal Sin" didn't even seem to care what kind of forum or thread he was haunting. So hopefully he will go on trolling on some Manowar or cosmetics forum for a while and leave us alone.

        Originally posted by Damian View Post
        Guys, please start yet another thread on "Ozzy's voice quality discussion" if you want to continue this. Unless you are going with an "Ozzy's cracking voice keeps female listeners away" or "Ozzy's voice is what got women into Sabbath" or something related to the topic, lets move on. The banter itself is fine, its just in the wrong place. Thanks.
        Originally posted by Jeff View Post
        This thread which I started and I thought attempted to define was about the oft-repeated exaggeration that Sabbath were a guy's band.
        I tend to agree with Damian here. To be sure, obviously this thread already took several twists and turns before, but it always seemed to get back to the topic. The more recent changes of subject, however, seem to deserve their own new threads - be it the condition of Ozzy's voice in recent years, or the gender differences in musical tastes and the root causes of those differences. Both are interesting topics, but they are indeed far removed from the original question asked by Jeff in the beginning of this thread.

        EDIT: Thinking about it again, maybe it's OK to keep going and see what happens - maybe we will keep getting back to the topic again? Jeff, what do you think?
        Last edited by Sabbabbath; 02-07-2018, 04:45 PM.

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        • Hi Linda and Will, just curious, how was the Cross Purposes show?

          You both said you attended it right? And how was the female attendance?

          P.S. Sin Cardinal Sin is a good man, good friend of mine.
          Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 02-07-2018, 03:54 PM.
          "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
          "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
          ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post



            Jeff explained the topic of this thread in his first few posts on page one.
            Yes, and my post addressed his premise.
            You bought and sold me with your lying words.
            Phil, your head's all full of lice!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
              Hi Linda and Will, just curious, how was the Cross Purposes show?

              You both said you attended it right? And how was the female attendance?

              P.S. Sin Cardinal Sin is a good man, good friend of mine.
              I attended a show of the Forbidden tour. I loved it, though the volume was really far too high and thus unnecessarily distorted (even the vocals). "When Death Calls" was great. Tony Martin's voice was of course not in best shape anymore (it got much worse between 1990 and 1994), but he did his best.

              As for Cardinal Sin, well, being your friend is not an excuse for trolling and bullying around. He came to this thread with nothing but aggression, he did not say one word related to the topic.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                In today's political climate, are we allowed to even suggest or research scientifically that there might be a difference between men and women?

                I mean that would ruffle some feathers would it not? I think it would be interesting to study Trans-gendered Men and women who are on opposite hormone treatments to see if their musical interests have changed or remained the same...whether familiarity and habit play a part or if musical preference is more biochemical in nature?

                I've got an informal poll up at another board where there may be anonymous Trans-gendered people. We'll see if it gets traction/results.
                As with everything it would be interesting to study, but from the well of information i pull out of my head i don't see any reason why being a trans should make any difference. If you're a man born in a womans body or vice versa, you're still the same person after going through the surgery and hormone treatments as before. Hormones can do alot, but i don't think it'll alter your personallity and taste. Reminds me about the east-European lumberjack who claimed that after having had a heart transplant from a female donor became more interested in "women activities" as knitting and cooking. Utterly pointless, and way out of any normal understanding of the world.

                Formerly Wayne, now Jayne County being a pioneering Punk artist as well as a pioneer for the trans-sexuals (first) and trans-genders (later) just shows that Rock doesn't really have any gender boundaries at all.
                Janis Joplin rocked harder than Bruce Dickinson could ever dream of...
                95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

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                • Originally posted by Sicko FanAtic View Post
                  Yes, and my post addressed his premise.
                  I was just trying to help. Your comment sounded to me like you were unsure how Jeff defined the topic, that's why I pointed to his first posts. I think he made it pretty clear that he does NOT dispute that Sabbath fans in the 1970ies were male in majority. Rather, he seemed to suggest that the fanbase of 1970ies Sabbath is pictured even MORE male (and generally more homogenic and black-leather wearing) than it actually was.

                  Comment


                  • Might be nice to hear others (not specifically Sab-fans) talking about women in Metal in general, sorry if that's not on topic, though i think it is. Or atleast relevant..:

                    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                      As with everything it would be interesting to study, but from the well of information i pull out of my head i don't see any reason why being a trans should make any difference. If you're a man born in a womans body or vice versa, you're still the same person after going through the surgery and hormone treatments as before. Hormones can do alot, but i don't think it'll alter your personallity and taste. Reminds me about the east-European lumberjack who claimed that after having had a heart transplant from a female donor became more interested in "women activities" as knitting and cooking. Utterly pointless, and way out of any normal understanding of the world.

                      Formerly Wayne, now Jayne County being a pioneering Punk artist as well as a pioneer for the trans-sexuals (first) and trans-genders (later) just shows that Rock doesn't really have any gender boundaries at all.
                      Janis Joplin rocked harder than Bruce Dickinson could ever dream of...
                      The hormone-question is not easy to answer: generally it is very clear that hormones are an essential factor in our emotional lives (which does not imply that they totally determine our emotions - in a way, hormones are really an essential part of what emotions are, and re-thinking something can cause an emotional change and accordingly a change on hormonal level as much as the other way around). Anyway, hormones are not at all the only factor that changes in a transgender persons life during the transition. I mean, most of them work very hard on their general habitus and "performance", usually trying to adjust to the dominant gender norms, and at least here in Germany they usually have some kind of accompanying psychotherapy. The 3 transgender people I met before and during or after their transitions went through some pretty heavy phases of mood changes and psychological hardships. At some points it was pretty obvious that the hormones did influence their temper. Any of the aforementioned factors could lead to at least small changes in a person's character or tastes. Anyway, in the longer term, the aforementioned 3 people definitely didn't undergo a 100% personality change. More like a 15% one I would say. I didn't talk to them about music, but it would be news to me of someone said that a sex transition fundamentally changed musical taste. Our musical tastes seem to be coined heavily by experiences early in our lives - those experiences don't go away. So I mostly agree with you, Billy, though not to 100%: I think personality and tastes do usually change a little, but indeed not very much.

                      Anyway, as with most matters, a few personal experiences don't necessarily correspond to general tendencies. So scientific studies would be needed to get a more general and objective outlook (while at the same time, scientific results also need critical examination - lots of manipulated or biased statistics out there).

                      Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                      Janis Joplin rocked harder than Bruce Dickinson could ever dream of...
                      OH YES!

                      Comment


                      • ^^^

                        Yeah, i agree it might affect to some degree. But changing is part of everybodys lifes anyway. I was a different Metal fan as a teen than i'm now, and from my late teens i started listening to alot softer music than i ever had before. Even hated before.

                        But it's hard to say without any real studies, it'll just be musing, but hell, that's fun too, right? It's a discussion board after all...
                        95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                        Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                          I attended a show of the Forbidden tour. I loved it, though the volume was really far too high and thus unnecessarily distorted (even the vocals). "When Death Calls" was great. Tony Martin's voice was of course not in best shape anymore (it got much worse between 1990 and 1994), but he did his best.

                          As for Cardinal Sin, well, being your friend is not an excuse for trolling and bullying around. He came to this thread with nothing but aggression, he did not say one word related to the topic.
                          Even better, that’s my favorite, was there a lot of people there, and what of the female constituency?
                          "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                          "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                          ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Damian View Post
                            Just summarizing here. Clearly, when you "drop by" and make 12 posts and zero of them reference the topic, you should expect to be banned, or warned at least. If you've been here long enough to know better, you can expect the ban. Keeping this thread open, like any thread that goes off the rails here, goes deeper then outing simple name-calling. Some of you don't like others, don't like their message beyond the topic at hand, or have issues with them that go beyond differences of opinion when it comes to female Sabbath fans.

                            No one here is perfect, and most of us have some kind of Achilles heel that shows itself if they contribute long enough. What overrides this dysfunction, for my own moderation purposes, is if the members are Black Sabbath FANS. That comes through more then anything. We are a passionate and knowledgeable bunch, here. There are rules here also, but cracking down on every single possible infraction makes the ongoing task nearly impossible to control, and less fun overall for the members.

                            If you contribute positive content here, share extensive knowledge and experiences, and keep a regular presence on the boards, then the good you do may in fact outweigh whatever problems you might cause us or other members. Getting back to Achilles, if your particular vice has also at one time impacted the band or other fans, it is hard to dismiss it in hand. Religion, drug use, misogyny, isolation, these topics are relevant here, and many members have personal experiences that lend a passionate point of view to one or all of these areas of discussion. For one member, drugs led them to Sabbath. For some others, Sabbath got them clean again. Some feel strength in the bonding of what has been a male-dominated fanbase. For some of us, Black Sabbath was the only friend we had growing up.

                            This is all very powerful stuff, and our own experiences that differ from others can lead to chaotic discussions here. But, in terms of the good outweighing the bad, ask yourself: Do you really love Black Sabbath? Now ask yourself again. In a mirror. Do you REALLY love the band? If you answered Yes, then the good of you being here will outweigh the bad, as I see it. Carry on.
                            Respect ..... Perfect Statement!


                            Doc

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                            • That was an awesome interview Billy, thanks for posting. The one thing that was discussed here that hit home was the "Pop Quiz". Totally sexist and totally uncalled for. Rock on ladies!!!

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                              • The official VHS/DVD release of the 1978 show, at the Hammersmith Odeon, shows an almost entirely male audience. Great memory of watching that for the first time. Me and my friend were already into guns n roses, and deep purple.My grandad hands us this video, and says here, give this a go. Symptom of the universe opens the show. We didn't make it to the end of the song. It was just too heavy and if you like, intimidating. Anyway, yeah, going by that show, its was mainly a male audience.

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