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  • Originally posted by turch118 View Post
    The one thing that was discussed here that hit home was the "Pop Quiz". Totally sexist and totally uncalled for.
    That was what reminded me of the clip/interview/discussion. It's clearly a topic that spans Metal as a whole, and is probably alot worse in the more extreme forms of Metal.
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

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    • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
      I was just trying to help. Your comment sounded to me like you were unsure how Jeff defined the topic, that's why I pointed to his first posts. I think he made it pretty clear that he does NOT dispute that Sabbath fans in the 1970ies were male in majority. Rather, he seemed to suggest that the fanbase of 1970ies Sabbath is pictured even MORE male (and generally more homogenic and black-leather wearing) than it actually was.
      Pictured even more male by who? Other than by a strawman I mean. That's the gist of my question.
      You bought and sold me with your lying words.
      Phil, your head's all full of lice!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sicko FanAtic View Post
        Pictured even more male by who? Other than by a strawman I mean. That's the gist of my question.
        OK, now I got it. Jeff seemed to refer to what he perceived as a general cliché; one more specific hint he gave was this one:
        Originally posted by Jeff View Post
        When the promo video came out for EotB I was surprised how many comments seemed to indicate that the audience should be a bunch of sweaty males. Have people who say stuff like this ever been to a Sabbath show with Ozzy?
        Anyway, of course your question can only be satisfyingly answered by Jeff.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oh lord yeah! View Post
          The official VHS/DVD release of the 1978 show, at the Hammersmith Odeon, shows an almost entirely male audience. Great memory of watching that for the first time. Me and my friend were already into guns n roses, and deep purple.My grandad hands us this video, and says here, give this a go. Symptom of the universe opens the show. We didn't make it to the end of the song. It was just too heavy and if you like, intimidating. Anyway, yeah, going by that show, its was mainly a male audience.
          Based upon the Hammersmith '78 video, it would seem that in London by the late 70s, Sabbath were certainly appealing almost entirely to a male audience.

          But keep in mind, my point is that you if factor in geography and the full scope of their reach at various points in time, it's clear that plenty of females not only attended Sabbath shows, but in some cases screamed their lungs out.

          Let's remember other periods. For example, that after "Paranoid" was a UK smash hit single (#1 or #2 or whatever), the band became frustrated by the audience they started getting in Britain. Screaming teenagers (with surely plenty of women) got to the point that the band rejected this audience, resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?). It even caused the band to not want to do singles for a while, as they wanted to be an album band first and foremost. This is all covered in Chris Welch's book with references from the UK press coverage at the time.

          This band has been around a long time. In 1971 Rolling Stone did a feature on them with photos by the legendary Annie Leibovitz. Girls attending their concerts were asked about the appeal with comments about the music "making you feel like you're in a graveyard" highlighted by an often condescending press eager to find fault with Sabbath and their fans. The 60s was fading, and music was changing. Not everybody was on board. In this same article (Sabbath won't tell you this because it doesn't fit the "rock star" narrative) Ozzy absolutely lambasted "groupies" and said the band were sick of them coming around, had no interest in them and were pretty much disgusted by them.
          "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
          -WTB

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
            resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?).
            Wasn't that article also aimed at so-called devil worshipping fans?
            95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
            Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
              Based upon the Hammersmith '78 video, it would seem that in London by the late 70s, Sabbath were certainly appealing almost entirely to a male audience.

              But keep in mind, my point is that you if factor in geography and the full scope of their reach at various points in time, it's clear that plenty of females not only attended Sabbath shows, but in some cases screamed their lungs out.

              Let's remember other periods. For example, that after "Paranoid" was a UK smash hit single (#1 or #2 or whatever), the band became frustrated by the audience they started getting in Britain. Screaming teenagers (with surely plenty of women) got to the point that the band rejected this audience, resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?). It even caused the band to not want to do singles for a while, as they wanted to be an album band first and foremost. This is all covered in Chris Welch's book with references from the UK press coverage at the time.

              This band has been around a long time. In 1971 Rolling Stone did a feature on them with photos by the legendary Annie Leibovitz. Girls attending their concerts were asked about the appeal with comments about the music "making you feel like you're in a graveyard" highlighted by an often condescending press eager to find fault with Sabbath and their fans. The 60s was fading, and music was changing. Not everybody was on board. In this same article (Sabbath won't tell you this because it doesn't fit the "rock star" narrative) Ozzy absolutely lambasted "groupies" and said the band were sick of them coming around, had no interest in them and were pretty much disgusted by them.
              Very true, and a very in depth post as always. I do remember reading once, that the band were getting fed up of the groupies, because they were so tired, and wanted to rest.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?)
                Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                Wasn't that article also aimed at so-called devil worshipping fans?
                Any chance that someone posts the article here? According to
                https://books.google.de/books?id=Cm4Bh8ZIwvsC&pg=PP43&lpg=PP43&dq=%22fans+ we+don%27t+want%22+%22black+sabbath%22&source=bl&o ts=ThVZvzVNev&sig=6i9-zrhU6LotRKuwj2ok8hxiEig&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwici5 jLi5fZAhUL26QKHbkDA1IQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22fans %20we%20don't%20want%22&f=false
                the article was published in "Disc and Music Echo".

                Comment


                • Jeff you base your argument on live concerts, people go to concerts for various reasons many times just for the party with friends not because they die hard fans of the band. Like EVERY band Sabbath grew tired of the groupies is that a surprise?
                  "Music is so sacred to me that I can’t hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                  R. Blackmore

                  Comment


                  • What's better; groupies or bandies?
                    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
                    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                      Jeff you base your argument on live concerts, people go to concerts for various reasons many times just for the party with friends not because they die hard fans of the band.
                      I personally don't know any woman who goes to rock or metal concerts without being into the band that plays. Of course, my circle of acquaintances is surely not representative, plus things might have been different in the 1970ies. On the other hand, do you believe that 1970ies Sabbath concerts were attended by many people just for having a party with friends or similar reasons? And if so, is there any reason to assume that would have applied to all women present?

                      Again, nobody here has ever claimed that there was a huge amount of women among 1970ies Sabbath fans. What I find interesting is that even the idea that there might have SOME real female Sabbath fans in the 1970ies seems to be make some people's heads explode. :-) Is that really so unthinkable? In my view, Sabbath's music is pretty diverse in terms of feel, musical styles and elements, subject matters etc. War Pigs and COTG deal with war - were there no women in the anti-war movements? Some of their songs are about drugs, others about religion. Are women not interested in drugs or religion? Several songs deal with isolation or violence. Does anyone here believe that women don't experience isolation or violence? And so on.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                        I personally don't know any woman who goes to rock or metal concerts without being into the band that plays. Of course, my circle of acquaintances is surely not representative, plus things might have been different in the 1970ies. On the other hand, do you believe that 1970ies Sabbath concerts were attended by many people just for having a party with friends or similar reasons? And if so, is there any reason to assume that would have applied to all women present?

                        Again, nobody here has ever claimed that there was a huge amount of women among 1970ies Sabbath fans. What I find interesting is that even the idea that there might have SOME real female Sabbath fans in the 1970ies seems to be make some people's heads explode. :-) Is that really so unthinkable? In my view, Sabbath's music is pretty diverse in terms of feel, musical styles and elements, subject matters etc. War Pigs and COTG deal with war - were there no women in the anti-war movements? Some of their songs are about drugs, others about religion. Are women not interested in drugs or religion? Several songs deal with isolation or violence. Does anyone here believe that women don't experience isolation or violence? And so on.
                        of course there were some women at their concerts..women as a whole aren't into bands who's message was of the content of Sabbath's, they aren't wired that way. At least in the 70's not so much.
                        "Music is so sacred to me that I can’t hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
                        R. Blackmore

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                          Jeff you base your argument on live concerts, people go to concerts for various reasons many times just for the party with friends not because they die hard fans of the band. Like EVERY band Sabbath grew tired of the groupies is that a surprise?
                          I'm not sure you understand my "argument," homes.

                          My point was only ever that Sabbath were never a "guy's band" IN THE WAY that some lazy music "historians" might perceive. I think we can probably all agree that we needn't define all bands as either one or the other (guy band/chick band). Certainly there is some ground between Peter Frampton and say ... Pantera. Sabbath might be a bit closer to the Pantera side if one considers their entire career, but there is a lot of room there.
                          "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
                          -WTB

                          Comment


                          • Has anyone asked this question, outright?

                            Is there such a thing as a "Guy's Band" at all? You cite Pantera, above, but in all honesty I've personally encountered far more females closer to a "Pantera Fan" than a "Black Sabbath Fan" (As loosely defined by my personal standards.)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                              Has anyone asked this question, outright?

                              Is there such a thing as a "Guy's Band" at all? You cite Pantera, above, but in all honesty I've personally encountered far more females closer to a "Pantera Fan" than a "Black Sabbath Fan" (As loosely defined by my personal standards.)
                              I'd guess that there are probably a good number of gangsta rap acts that have a 95%+ male fanbase.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                                Has anyone asked this question, outright?

                                Is there such a thing as a "Guy's Band" at all? You cite Pantera, above, but in all honesty I've personally encountered far more females closer to a "Pantera Fan" than a "Black Sabbath Fan" (As loosely defined by my personal standards.)
                                I don't know enough about Pantera to know if that was a poor example. Probably should have used another one.

                                I'm not sure I've ever met a female Pantera fan, while I've known numerous female Sabs fans, but I wasn't meaning to use my own experience as any kind of indicator. I just assumed (perhaps wrongly?) that they might be an example of a band far more exclusive to males than Ozzy-era Sabbath.

                                I feel like much of what I say in thread has a point that gets lost in translation with some folks. Probably need to explain what I mean better, I don't know ...
                                "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
                                -WTB

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