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  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    What's better; groupies or bandies?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicked Cricket
    replied
    Jeff you base your argument on live concerts, people go to concerts for various reasons many times just for the party with friends not because they die hard fans of the band. Like EVERY band Sabbath grew tired of the groupies is that a surprise?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?)
    Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Wasn't that article also aimed at so-called devil worshipping fans?
    Any chance that someone posts the article here? According to
    https://books.google.de/books?id=Cm4Bh8ZIwvsC&pg=PP43&lpg=PP43&dq=%22fans+ we+don%27t+want%22+%22black+sabbath%22&source=bl&o ts=ThVZvzVNev&sig=6i9-zrhU6LotRKuwj2ok8hxiEig&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwici5 jLi5fZAhUL26QKHbkDA1IQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22fans %20we%20don't%20want%22&f=false
    the article was published in "Disc and Music Echo".

    Leave a comment:


  • oh lord yeah!
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    Based upon the Hammersmith '78 video, it would seem that in London by the late 70s, Sabbath were certainly appealing almost entirely to a male audience.

    But keep in mind, my point is that you if factor in geography and the full scope of their reach at various points in time, it's clear that plenty of females not only attended Sabbath shows, but in some cases screamed their lungs out.

    Let's remember other periods. For example, that after "Paranoid" was a UK smash hit single (#1 or #2 or whatever), the band became frustrated by the audience they started getting in Britain. Screaming teenagers (with surely plenty of women) got to the point that the band rejected this audience, resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?). It even caused the band to not want to do singles for a while, as they wanted to be an album band first and foremost. This is all covered in Chris Welch's book with references from the UK press coverage at the time.

    This band has been around a long time. In 1971 Rolling Stone did a feature on them with photos by the legendary Annie Leibovitz. Girls attending their concerts were asked about the appeal with comments about the music "making you feel like you're in a graveyard" highlighted by an often condescending press eager to find fault with Sabbath and their fans. The 60s was fading, and music was changing. Not everybody was on board. In this same article (Sabbath won't tell you this because it doesn't fit the "rock star" narrative) Ozzy absolutely lambasted "groupies" and said the band were sick of them coming around, had no interest in them and were pretty much disgusted by them.
    Very true, and a very in depth post as always. I do remember reading once, that the band were getting fed up of the groupies, because they were so tired, and wanted to rest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?).
    Wasn't that article also aimed at so-called devil worshipping fans?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff
    replied
    Originally posted by oh lord yeah! View Post
    The official VHS/DVD release of the 1978 show, at the Hammersmith Odeon, shows an almost entirely male audience. Great memory of watching that for the first time. Me and my friend were already into guns n roses, and deep purple.My grandad hands us this video, and says here, give this a go. Symptom of the universe opens the show. We didn't make it to the end of the song. It was just too heavy and if you like, intimidating. Anyway, yeah, going by that show, its was mainly a male audience.
    Based upon the Hammersmith '78 video, it would seem that in London by the late 70s, Sabbath were certainly appealing almost entirely to a male audience.

    But keep in mind, my point is that you if factor in geography and the full scope of their reach at various points in time, it's clear that plenty of females not only attended Sabbath shows, but in some cases screamed their lungs out.

    Let's remember other periods. For example, that after "Paranoid" was a UK smash hit single (#1 or #2 or whatever), the band became frustrated by the audience they started getting in Britain. Screaming teenagers (with surely plenty of women) got to the point that the band rejected this audience, resulting in a "FANS WE DON'T WANT" headline in Melody Maker (or NME?). It even caused the band to not want to do singles for a while, as they wanted to be an album band first and foremost. This is all covered in Chris Welch's book with references from the UK press coverage at the time.

    This band has been around a long time. In 1971 Rolling Stone did a feature on them with photos by the legendary Annie Leibovitz. Girls attending their concerts were asked about the appeal with comments about the music "making you feel like you're in a graveyard" highlighted by an often condescending press eager to find fault with Sabbath and their fans. The 60s was fading, and music was changing. Not everybody was on board. In this same article (Sabbath won't tell you this because it doesn't fit the "rock star" narrative) Ozzy absolutely lambasted "groupies" and said the band were sick of them coming around, had no interest in them and were pretty much disgusted by them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by Sicko FanAtic View Post
    Pictured even more male by who? Other than by a strawman I mean. That's the gist of my question.
    OK, now I got it. Jeff seemed to refer to what he perceived as a general cliché; one more specific hint he gave was this one:
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    When the promo video came out for EotB I was surprised how many comments seemed to indicate that the audience should be a bunch of sweaty males. Have people who say stuff like this ever been to a Sabbath show with Ozzy?
    Anyway, of course your question can only be satisfyingly answered by Jeff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sicko FanAtic
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    I was just trying to help. Your comment sounded to me like you were unsure how Jeff defined the topic, that's why I pointed to his first posts. I think he made it pretty clear that he does NOT dispute that Sabbath fans in the 1970ies were male in majority. Rather, he seemed to suggest that the fanbase of 1970ies Sabbath is pictured even MORE male (and generally more homogenic and black-leather wearing) than it actually was.
    Pictured even more male by who? Other than by a strawman I mean. That's the gist of my question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    Originally posted by turch118 View Post
    The one thing that was discussed here that hit home was the "Pop Quiz". Totally sexist and totally uncalled for.
    That was what reminded me of the clip/interview/discussion. It's clearly a topic that spans Metal as a whole, and is probably alot worse in the more extreme forms of Metal.

    Leave a comment:


  • oh lord yeah!
    replied
    The official VHS/DVD release of the 1978 show, at the Hammersmith Odeon, shows an almost entirely male audience. Great memory of watching that for the first time. Me and my friend were already into guns n roses, and deep purple.My grandad hands us this video, and says here, give this a go. Symptom of the universe opens the show. We didn't make it to the end of the song. It was just too heavy and if you like, intimidating. Anyway, yeah, going by that show, its was mainly a male audience.

    Leave a comment:


  • turch118
    replied
    That was an awesome interview Billy, thanks for posting. The one thing that was discussed here that hit home was the "Pop Quiz". Totally sexist and totally uncalled for. Rock on ladies!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • BACK TO EDEN
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian View Post
    Just summarizing here. Clearly, when you "drop by" and make 12 posts and zero of them reference the topic, you should expect to be banned, or warned at least. If you've been here long enough to know better, you can expect the ban. Keeping this thread open, like any thread that goes off the rails here, goes deeper then outing simple name-calling. Some of you don't like others, don't like their message beyond the topic at hand, or have issues with them that go beyond differences of opinion when it comes to female Sabbath fans.

    No one here is perfect, and most of us have some kind of Achilles heel that shows itself if they contribute long enough. What overrides this dysfunction, for my own moderation purposes, is if the members are Black Sabbath FANS. That comes through more then anything. We are a passionate and knowledgeable bunch, here. There are rules here also, but cracking down on every single possible infraction makes the ongoing task nearly impossible to control, and less fun overall for the members.

    If you contribute positive content here, share extensive knowledge and experiences, and keep a regular presence on the boards, then the good you do may in fact outweigh whatever problems you might cause us or other members. Getting back to Achilles, if your particular vice has also at one time impacted the band or other fans, it is hard to dismiss it in hand. Religion, drug use, misogyny, isolation, these topics are relevant here, and many members have personal experiences that lend a passionate point of view to one or all of these areas of discussion. For one member, drugs led them to Sabbath. For some others, Sabbath got them clean again. Some feel strength in the bonding of what has been a male-dominated fanbase. For some of us, Black Sabbath was the only friend we had growing up.

    This is all very powerful stuff, and our own experiences that differ from others can lead to chaotic discussions here. But, in terms of the good outweighing the bad, ask yourself: Do you really love Black Sabbath? Now ask yourself again. In a mirror. Do you REALLY love the band? If you answered Yes, then the good of you being here will outweigh the bad, as I see it. Carry on.
    Respect ..... Perfect Statement!


    Doc

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    I attended a show of the Forbidden tour. I loved it, though the volume was really far too high and thus unnecessarily distorted (even the vocals). "When Death Calls" was great. Tony Martin's voice was of course not in best shape anymore (it got much worse between 1990 and 1994), but he did his best.

    As for Cardinal Sin, well, being your friend is not an excuse for trolling and bullying around. He came to this thread with nothing but aggression, he did not say one word related to the topic.
    Even better, that’s my favorite, was there a lot of people there, and what of the female constituency?

    Leave a comment:


  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    ^^^

    Yeah, i agree it might affect to some degree. But changing is part of everybodys lifes anyway. I was a different Metal fan as a teen than i'm now, and from my late teens i started listening to alot softer music than i ever had before. Even hated before.

    But it's hard to say without any real studies, it'll just be musing, but hell, that's fun too, right? It's a discussion board after all...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    As with everything it would be interesting to study, but from the well of information i pull out of my head i don't see any reason why being a trans should make any difference. If you're a man born in a womans body or vice versa, you're still the same person after going through the surgery and hormone treatments as before. Hormones can do alot, but i don't think it'll alter your personallity and taste. Reminds me about the east-European lumberjack who claimed that after having had a heart transplant from a female donor became more interested in "women activities" as knitting and cooking. Utterly pointless, and way out of any normal understanding of the world.

    Formerly Wayne, now Jayne County being a pioneering Punk artist as well as a pioneer for the trans-sexuals (first) and trans-genders (later) just shows that Rock doesn't really have any gender boundaries at all.
    Janis Joplin rocked harder than Bruce Dickinson could ever dream of...
    The hormone-question is not easy to answer: generally it is very clear that hormones are an essential factor in our emotional lives (which does not imply that they totally determine our emotions - in a way, hormones are really an essential part of what emotions are, and re-thinking something can cause an emotional change and accordingly a change on hormonal level as much as the other way around). Anyway, hormones are not at all the only factor that changes in a transgender persons life during the transition. I mean, most of them work very hard on their general habitus and "performance", usually trying to adjust to the dominant gender norms, and at least here in Germany they usually have some kind of accompanying psychotherapy. The 3 transgender people I met before and during or after their transitions went through some pretty heavy phases of mood changes and psychological hardships. At some points it was pretty obvious that the hormones did influence their temper. Any of the aforementioned factors could lead to at least small changes in a person's character or tastes. Anyway, in the longer term, the aforementioned 3 people definitely didn't undergo a 100% personality change. More like a 15% one I would say. I didn't talk to them about music, but it would be news to me of someone said that a sex transition fundamentally changed musical taste. Our musical tastes seem to be coined heavily by experiences early in our lives - those experiences don't go away. So I mostly agree with you, Billy, though not to 100%: I think personality and tastes do usually change a little, but indeed not very much.

    Anyway, as with most matters, a few personal experiences don't necessarily correspond to general tendencies. So scientific studies would be needed to get a more general and objective outlook (while at the same time, scientific results also need critical examination - lots of manipulated or biased statistics out there).

    Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Janis Joplin rocked harder than Bruce Dickinson could ever dream of...
    OH YES!

    Leave a comment:

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