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  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    To me it's '65 - '75. The Beatles, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (both Barret era and Prog era), David Bowie, Zeppelin, Purple and so on... Can do without Rainbow for two reasons, as good as they were. Need i mention the vocal style? And that, with the way they presented the music, was the forerunner for alot of the Power Metal crap that came in the 80's and 90's. Ofcourse there's some overlapping in mentioned bands, Beatles were good pre '65, Pink Floyd were great up till Animals ('77) and along with The Man Who Sold The World, Bowies best albums are Hours... ('99) and Heathen ('02). And i like late 70's Punk, 80's Extreme Metal (including Thrash) and early 90's Black Metal, Groove Metal and Grunge. But the best decade overall was '65 - '75.
    When I have to list bands that I like, I always forget some. That's what happened with Pink Floyd when I listed bands above. I would include several DP songs too, and uncounted songs of uncounted other bands. I know you don't like RJD's vocal style, and that's fine, but I do, and if I have to do without the H&H album, then at least Rainbow Rising has to be included. :-)
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 02-07-2018, 11:49 AM.

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  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Definitely. If I had to choose one period of 10 years from all music history, I would probably choose 1967 to 1976. That would include some great music from Sabbath, Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, Rainbow and many others...
    To me it's '65 - '75. The Beatles, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (both Barret era and Prog era), David Bowie, Zeppelin, Purple and so on... Can do without Rainbow for two reasons, as good as they were. Need i mention the vocal style? And that, with the way they presented the music, was the forerunner for alot of the Power Metal crap that came in the 80's and 90's. Ofcourse there's some overlapping in mentioned bands, Beatles were good pre '65, Pink Floyd were great up till Animals ('77) and along with The Man Who Sold The World, Bowies best albums are Hours... ('99) and Heathen ('02). And i like late 70's Punk, 80's Extreme Metal (including Thrash) and early 90's Black Metal, Groove Metal and Grunge. But the best decade overall was '65 - '75.

    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

    Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

    I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.
    A good litmus test is "did you become a fan before, after or because of The Osbournes?"...

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  • hipster doofus
    replied
    Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    Now to be fair to you all, and to better understand my experience: I have not gone to any of the Black Sabbath concerts. The last Sabbath show I saw was Cross Purposes.
    I'm still laughing at this little nugget of a quote, particularly after seeing you trash Ozzy on Blabbermouth as often as you can. It's just so...typical internet guy. "Hey, I stopped watching (insert TV show here) 6 seasons ago because it's stupid, but I just saw a commercial and lemme tell ya what I think!"

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  • zzzptm
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

    Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

    I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.
    That's a very good point, one I hadn't previously considered. We're really quite lucky that the band members have been able to perform so well for so long. I look at Glen Campbell (country singer in the USA, for those not familiar) doing his last tour with Alzheimer's and his family members in the band gently reminding him about which songs he already played or about how a solo was supposed to go. Once his lightbulb went back on, he was brilliant again.

    Some performers, though, seem to not really care any more - or they seem to be going in a direction we totally didn't expect. Ritchie Blackmore comes to mind. Absolutely brilliant on stage from 1968-1986, and then it's clear his heart was moving in another direction. There's what paid the bills and then there was what he *really* wanted to do. If I wanted to introduce someone to Blackmore, I would absolutely avoid footage from his recent concerts and instead go with his Cal Jam work or the Copenhagen 1972 concert.

    With Sabbath's recent performances, it's more of a "You think that's good? Well, try this..." than a "Oh, don't judge them by that..." sort of situation.

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  • Jeff
    replied
    Originally posted by zzzptm View Post

    But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.
    IMO, this is a huge component of the misinformation that can spread about a musical act.

    Let's face it, being around nearly half a century is a phenomenal accomplishment, but it also comes with peaks, valleys, and in this case different eras entirely.

    I've actually seen people comment on Ozzy Osbourne as a stage performer based on seeing him in recent years, but upon some questioning it became obvious that they had no clue what he was back in the 70s. We're talking about "fair weather" types, of course, because you'd have to have never even glanced at old Sabbath on YouTube to think that Ozzy always performed as he has in his older years. I'm not even talking vocally, but physically. I mean, the guy is pushing 70 and has Parkin Syndrome, so if you go to a show and think THIS is what made him famous, it shows a very odd conclusion, IMO. But I'm sure any long-lasting musical act has this happen. It's part of the deal in being around so long. But Sabbath actually has gone down incredibly well for the most part in their twilight years. People usually at least walking away satisfied and many being "blown away" and so forth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian
    replied
    Just summarizing here. Clearly, when you "drop by" and make 12 posts and zero of them reference the topic, you should expect to be banned, or warned at least. If you've been here long enough to know better, you can expect the ban. Keeping this thread open, like any thread that goes off the rails here, goes deeper then outing simple name-calling. Some of you don't like others, don't like their message beyond the topic at hand, or have issues with them that go beyond differences of opinion when it comes to female Sabbath fans.

    No one here is perfect, and most of us have some kind of Achilles heel that shows itself if they contribute long enough. What overrides this dysfunction, for my own moderation purposes, is if the members are Black Sabbath FANS. That comes through more then anything. We are a passionate and knowledgeable bunch, here. There are rules here also, but cracking down on every single possible infraction makes the ongoing task nearly impossible to control, and less fun overall for the members.

    If you contribute positive content here, share extensive knowledge and experiences, and keep a regular presence on the boards, then the good you do may in fact outweigh whatever problems you might cause us or other members. Getting back to Achilles, if your particular vice has also at one time impacted the band or other fans, it is hard to dismiss it in hand. Religion, drug use, misogyny, isolation, these topics are relevant here, and many members have personal experiences that lend a passionate point of view to one or all of these areas of discussion. For one member, drugs led them to Sabbath. For some others, Sabbath got them clean again. Some feel strength in the bonding of what has been a male-dominated fanbase. For some of us, Black Sabbath was the only friend we had growing up.

    This is all very powerful stuff, and our own experiences that differ from others can lead to chaotic discussions here. But, in terms of the good outweighing the bad, ask yourself: Do you really love Black Sabbath? Now ask yourself again. In a mirror. Do you REALLY love the band? If you answered Yes, then the good of you being here will outweigh the bad, as I see it. Carry on.

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  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by zzzptm View Post
    You were born in the late 70s? Why, when I was your age, I was much older!

    But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.
    Definitely. If I had to choose one period of 10 years from all music history, I would probably choose 1967 to 1976. That would include some great music from Sabbath, Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, Rainbow and many others... Very sad to lose the H&H album though which is one of my favourite 2 Sabbath albums (MOR being the other one). And of course everything after that... Luckily I don't need to choose, so I can enjoy them all. :-)

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  • zzzptm
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Being born in the late 1970ies, I missed the chance to attend any 1970ies or 1980ies Sabbath show. Which is probably one of the reasons why I collect every single Sabbath recording or video from those eras that I can get. But of course it is never the same as actually having been there.
    You were born in the late 70s? Why, when I was your age, I was much older!

    But this also goes to show the generational staying power of the music of those years. It really, really was good stuff and not just for the "remember when" crowd.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sabbabbath
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    Been busy in recent days and had a lot of "catching up" here.

    It's always somewhat perplexing to me how people with a confessed lack of in-depth knowledge on a topic will still stride forward with a false narrative that is easily disproved.

    Perhaps even more bizarre is that I've actually come to believe we have a number of people who contribute to this forum where apparently this is the "end all" of their Sabbath knowledge.

    Other fan sites? "Nope." Facebook fan groups with thousands of old photos? "Eh?" Old magazine interviews? "Huh?" Bootlegs? "No clue. I think I have one ..."

    This stuff isn't down to a single factor. First of all, let's forget the modern day and videos like the one for "The End Of The Beginning." Okay? Let's go back to BEFORE things were as "canned" as they are today.

    I don't understand how anyone so committed to a band as to be on a fan forum could be so uneducated about said band. You can read Rolling Stone articles from the early 70s where they are asking girls at Sabbath concerts what the appeal of the music is. You can look at any of thousands of photos from the 70s on dedicated Sabbath fan pages via Facebook. You can listen to audience recordings made from the front of halls, back of halls ... there is SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE to support the notion that 70s Sabbath were exclusively a "guy's band."

    FTR, the notion that Don Kirshner's Rock Concert or Sabbath could have given two shits about who forced their way up front at the Santa Monica Civic in 1975 when they were filmed is when we have to all take inventory of just how far it's reasonable to stretch one's pants to fit into a personalized little narrative.

    At the beginning of this thread, I posted a picture from Sabbath's concert in Tuscon, AZ on March 16, '72. Totally random black and white shot of Tony and Ozzy in concert taken from behind stage left. The front row has chicks. Because Sabbath appealed to some chicks. Any band who was playing the arenas they were was going to draw some females, folks. The "guy's band" narrative should be attached first to certain Punk bands and Thrash bands where in a sea of 500 people it might be hard to find a single girl.

    Don't like video? It was never my intention to refer only to video. Black Sabbath live in the 70s happens to be one of my most treasured musical experiences, so I have a lot of shows. As I've said, there are shows recorded from the audience that have screaming women. They weren't The Beatles. They weren't Rod Stewart. That isn't the point. The point is that they were never Black Flag either.
    Thank you very much, Jeff, for coming back and bringing this thread back on track by clarifying what it is about, and at the same time clarifying your position on the matter.


    Originally posted by zzzptm View Post
    Considering how the Cal Jam promoters thought that having Earth, Wind, and Fire on the same stage as the Eagles and Black Sabbath made perfect sense underlines that "pop music" big tent that covered a lot of music in the 70s. On the radio in the late 70s, I could hear Little River Band right after Black Sabbath and before Grand Funk. The tight songs of The Cars played right next to the sprawling compositions of Led Zeppelin. When the 80s started, Flock of Seagulls got just as much air time as AC/DC.

    But even so, one could tell the difference between The Carpenters and Deep Purple. And while my favorite stations had a pretty good mix, they stuck more with the rock side of things and less with the songs on the more pop-ier side of the spectrum. I didn't hear any Barry Manilow or Wild Cherry on my stations. No disco, either.

    And even with my focus on the rock, there was still what wouldn't ever get played on the radio, the "Underground" stuff. Without any Internet, a fan really had to do some research, face-to-face networking, and exploring those used record stores to find the hidden gems that we can now spin up in 2 seconds with a YouTube search.
    Thanks for your great contributions to this thread. Truly fascinating to hear that kind of first-person accounts from back int he 1980ies or 1970ies. Being born in the late 1970ies, I missed the chance to attend any 1970ies or 1980ies Sabbath show. Which is probably one of the reasons why I collect every single Sabbath recording or video from those eras that I can get. But of course it is never the same as actually having been there.
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 02-07-2018, 03:26 AM.

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  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    ^^^

    Sure there was a division between Rock and the more popier music, but you couldn't necessarily distinguish an Eagles fan from a Sabbath fan simply from appearance the way you later could with a Flock of Seagulls fan and an AC/DC fan.

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  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    I know that 60 something year old waitress lady was a true Sabbath fan, she had a smile when she saw my shirt, and the way she spoke.

    That’s all I can say. I’m sure there are countless others.

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  • zzzptm
    replied
    Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    That's the thing, in the 70's (esp. early on) Hard Rock and what was then called Heavy Metal (or proto-Metal as many call it now) were in parts also still considered pop music (as in popular music, not the genre we now call Pop, evident in Rollers last article post), but it was with "Metal proper" arriving in the late 70's/80's the whole macho Metal dude culture became more prevalent. In hindsight it might be easy for some to think it was like that in the early 70's too, though it was more tie-dye and flares as a "Hippie" left over rather than leather & spikes.
    Considering how the Cal Jam promoters thought that having Earth, Wind, and Fire on the same stage as the Eagles and Black Sabbath made perfect sense underlines that "pop music" big tent that covered a lot of music in the 70s. On the radio in the late 70s, I could hear Little River Band right after Black Sabbath and before Grand Funk. The tight songs of The Cars played right next to the sprawling compositions of Led Zeppelin. When the 80s started, Flock of Seagulls got just as much air time as AC/DC.

    But even so, one could tell the difference between The Carpenters and Deep Purple. And while my favorite stations had a pretty good mix, they stuck more with the rock side of things and less with the songs on the more pop-ier side of the spectrum. I didn't hear any Barry Manilow or Wild Cherry on my stations. No disco, either.

    And even with my focus on the rock, there was still what wouldn't ever get played on the radio, the "Underground" stuff. Without any Internet, a fan really had to do some research, face-to-face networking, and exploring those used record stores to find the hidden gems that we can now spin up in 2 seconds with a YouTube search.

    Leave a comment:


  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    There are all female Sabbath tribute acts who not only know the material but musically recreate it well.
    Black Sabbitch is a good example.

    Leave a comment:


  • Billy Underdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff View Post
    I think what happened is the NWOBHM hit its stride with young males, and Sabbath were a part of that, but this is poorly defined in terms of understanding the band's appeal in 70s.
    That's the thing, in the 70's (esp. early on) Hard Rock and what was then called Heavy Metal (or proto-Metal as many call it now) were in parts also still considered pop music (as in popular music, not the genre we now call Pop, evident in Rollers last article post), but it was with "Metal proper" arriving in the late 70's/80's the whole macho Metal dude culture became more prevalent. In hindsight it might be easy for some to think it was like that in the early 70's too, though it was more tie-dye and flares as a "Hippie" left over rather than leather & spikes.

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  • Jeff
    replied
    Originally posted by zzzptm View Post
    Like Jeff, I was away for a while and I'm catching up.

    The scene is Richardson, Texas, early 1982. I'm 13, going on 14, and have already purchased all the Led Zeppelin albums, most of Deep Purple's and am starting to acquire Black Sabbath. Mob Rules had just dropped, and I was wanting to know if it was any good. I was talking about it at school, 8th grade, and this girl I've known since I moved into the neighborhood in the 5th grade says she's got a copy and will let me borrow it. DUDE. That was totally awesome of her and, turns out, she also had all the Ozzy stuff and, yes, was totally into Sabotage as much as I was.

    A year and a half later, it's the start of 10th grade and my first year of high school (they did 10-12 at my HS back then) and I'm in Chemistry class, 5th period. This crazy chick with hair metal hair and an Ozzy concert jersey sits next to me and notices I've already started to write rock band names on my book cover. Right away she smiles and know she's sitting next to the right guy, 'coz I've got Zep, Purple, Sabbath, Grand Funk, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Uriah Heep, and all them bands written all over my cover. The teacher would go back to the chem workroom a lot - when she did, we'd start playing air guitar and singing out together to "Mob Rules", "Sweet Home Alabama" and, yes, "Megalomania", although we'd start at the end portion because riffs, dude, riffs.

    Nothing romantic with either of those two young ladies. Their love of Sabbath and metal/heavy rock in general was real, not some feigned way to reel in a boyfriend.

    Fast forward to 1986, September. A young lady at The University of Texas at Austin fakes liking Risk enough to get to sit next to me, but her love of the metal was real. I wasn't yet into Metallica or Iron Maiden because I wondered if they'd be too hard for my taste. Well, she turned me on to both those bands and then we tried out The Cult, Guns 'n' Roses, Megadeth, and a lot of other bands together. She bought me Mountain's "The Road Goes on Forever" for my 19th birthday. We played Fastway's first album so much on road trips, the whole album is practically "our song". She liked Sabbath for genuine reasons, all the right reasons. We've been married now, had our 30th anniversary last year.

    Point being, while the Sabs were no teenybopper-drawing band like Bon Jovi or New Kids on the Block, they certainly had a strong contingent of fans among the ladies, and they were just as true and dedicated as any others.

    Currently, there are a LOT of stoner bands with a heavy Sabbath influence in their sound that have women filling in various roles on vox or instruments. I'd count them as truefans, as well. Going back to the OP of the thread, looks like I'm in agreement with Jeff's observations, even if my evidence is just anecdotal.
    Great stuff and your point about modern tribute bands is spot-on. I was mostly referencing the portrayal of the band's appeal in the 70s and I think the band being humble and sometimes not even remembering large chunks of their career has probably contributed to that.

    But TODAY? I mean, you'd have to be living on this forum exclusively or under a rock. There are all female Sabbath tribute acts who not only know the material but musically recreate it well. There are Sabbath Fan Pages run by females on Facebook. Females commenting on all eras of the band. I mean ... FFS!

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