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Ozzy-Era Female Audience

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  • Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Man, what hatred must be festering inside you when you just keep turning up everywhere, jumping in with your cheap low blows. You're an evil man, John.
    Man by nature is evil .... I've been anything but ,,, and you know that you are fuelin a truly "insane" situation ..... do with it what you must , it will never change my love for ya , just "think" as your doing it.


    Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    You name it. :-)


    I'll tell you what's happening: Not sure whether you're doing it intentionally or not, but you keep switching the subjects every time your argument is not working out. I simply asked you for logic, now you are starting about "political correctness". That's funny, because the sources of my rebuttals didn't exactly include the Manifesto of the Communist Party, but instead consisted in (1st) a perfectly normal and conservative etymological dictionary (rather unsuspicious of leftist political activism I would say) and (2nd) your own posts. How about admitting when you're wrong, or admitting and asking back when you don't understand what I am saying, or trying to answer my claims if you think they are wrong? Would any of that be an unmanly thing to do?

    A little earlier here, you brought up "social justice warriors" who allegedly are the forces responsible for the bad reputation of sterotypes or clichés. When you were confronted with positive evidence showing that those two things have had their bad reputation for at at least one century, and thus both words were by definition negatively evaluating terms from the very beginning of their use in human rather than printing affairs, you simply ignored it (and changed the subject).

    Also a little earlier, you asked to present you "ONE" woman who was a real Sabbath fan, and you pretty obviously insinuated that would count as a rebuttal of your theory. Quickly presented with a female Sabbath fan, you were equally quick to dismiss her (me) as that exception that proves the rule, and even suggested that she must be a very strange human being, precisely because she doesn't fit your "truth".

    Along the way, I suggested you might simply use better-fitting words like "tendency" or "pattern" rather than "cliché" or "stereotype" because the lexical meanings of "cliché" or "stereotype" simply don't match what you are (according to your own posts) trying to say. Again, no reply. Instead this announcement:


    Yes, obviously you are, even if several of your points about those "general truths" have already been refuted. Rather than re-thinking your claims, you're now playing the 'I am the innocent victim of a mass of evil social justice political correctness warriors" card. Very brave of you, I am sure it is difficult to speak out in face of my stupendous power. :-)


    Oh, now that's really, really generous of you, William! I cannot imagine that any real female Black Sabbath fan in the world will ever have anything better to do than answering your questions, because they all have the same one great goal: to be graciously acknowledged by you as a real (though female!) Sabbath fan. (You're really lucky that I apparently have got nothing else to do these days - possibly your only chance ever to talk to a real female Sabbath fan.)


    NOW this is starting to get pretty amusing. You really have the gift or being able to read a woman's mind, William, don't you? I am sure any real fan will be extremely impressed by those congenial questions.

    And I see you have already prepared a whole lot of "arguments" for your inquisitional questioning of the alleged "female Sabbath ahem fan", arguments designed to "confirm" your "general truth" even if confronted with possible counterevidence. You should become a scientist and write an article entitled "How to protect the validity of my assumptions even in case that reality is very reluctant to conform to them". It is a very compelling methodology you're revealing here to us. Now that I am reading your great questionnaire, it is all the more surprising that you had nothing prepared that would save your claims from my rebuttals above.

    I am sure that even if the female (ahem) fan in question simply laughed about your questions and asked you if you would like to listen to any of her 2.06 terabytes of Sabbath audio recordings, or watch any of the 1.90 terabytes of Sabbath footage she owns, you would quickly be able to point out that her very way of asking the question somehow shows that she cannot be a real Sabbath fan, wouldn't you? Or even better: maybe simply stop questioning her Sabbath fandom and instead start focusing on her sex: if she is a real Sabbath fan, she cannot be a real woman - so she has to be a man. (I cannot wait to hear the questions you would ask to prove that theory.)

    But what if SHE suddenly asked YOU something, namely how many different audio recordings and films of Sabbath's Nov. 13, 1992 concert show in Oakland are circulating in trading circles? Well, I guss you would probably just change the subject to something else (e.g. to the heavy burdens of political correctness), right? (Or you take a note now, and you will be able to answer that question in the future: AFAIK it's 6 audios and 2 videos - yep, at least 6 tapers and 2 filmers at the same show, pretty amazing, isn't it?)

    Anyway, you know what? I think the (very surprising) fact that there is no waiting line of at least 50 supposed "female Sabbath ahem fans" in front of your house, anxiously waiting for their turn to answer your very subtle questionnaire, irrefutably shows there are no real female Sabbath fans in the world. Nowhere. Ever. The truth has won, once again.


    Yes, but don't worry: the way you are describing your conversation (read: interrogation) with the supposed female Sabbath fan, you will probably never find out anything about her conception of fandom anyway, because she will be busy all the time giving the 'right' answers to your questions, and you will be so busy waiting for her to say the 'wrong' thing that you will hardly be 'listening' to her in any deeper sense of the word.

    If I may draw a conclusion from my own experiences (as you seemed to encourage in one of your posts above, though I am now suspecting you were exclusively talking about YOUR own experiences, or rather what your pre-formed assumptions make of them): Perhaps you should alternatively consider the possibility that the difference between you and a few other male Sabbath fans on the one hand and some (or many or all?) "female Sabbath ahem fans" on the other hand is so vast that you and those other few men are simply incapable of ever having a serious conversation or discussion with any of those women. The experiences on which this hypothesis is based are my interactions with hundreds of other male Sabbath (ahem?) fans during 12 years of extensive free bootleg trading, downloading and sharing. It may come as a surprise to you that about 99% of those hundreds of men never seemed to be irritated at all by the fact that I am a woman; and you are the very first one ever who considered creating a questionnaire to reveal her non-fandom. Thus, you seem really, really different from the typical male Sabbath fan. So please allow me to borrow your own words to conclude (and don't worry, I will not bore you with further lengthy posts in this thread):
    Linda , what are you doing? ..... seriously , I left you a post explaining what and why ,, yet you somehow , deep inside yourself , believe this rhetoric to be the case here - YOU need to seriously look at yourself and find that light inside you , this here is not the way you want to "shine" ..... be that beautiful person I know YOU are.

    Said with love , truly.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
      Man by nature is evil .... I've been anything but ,,, ]
      Did you ever notice that you tend to talk about yourself as if you were God? I don't know how it sounds to you from the inside, but from the outside it is quite obvious.

      I have to add I am surprised about your heretical claim that man (who, as you keep saying yourself, was created by God, wasn't he?) were evil by nature. Of course we cannot discuss that here, just wanted to inform you that it does look, well, a tiny little bit inconsistent.

      Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
      yet you somehow , deep inside yourself , believe this rhetoric to be the case here
      I honestly doubt you are in the position to question other people's supposed use of rhetoric.

      Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
      he probably also has a job
      ???????????????

      Originally posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
      and does not have time to respond to such "insanity" in the form of a book (no offense) from out in left field to counter balance a very simple viewpoint.
      For your information, Doc, when you're posting such obviously and intentionally offensive statements, just adding "no offense" does not make them any less offensive. Same goes for using the word "love" all the time while actually practicing the opposite.

      Just leave us alone, Doc, and stop the bullying. Nobody here us has asked for your "deep" psychological analysis and ongoing "love" talk only designed to hurt others and make yourself appear superior. If you're not interested in the contents of the discussion, and you obviously aren't, go away and find yourself some people who are willing to play with you. I am sure you will find some if you just offer them expensive gifts.
      Last edited by Sabbabbath; 01-31-2018, 12:36 PM.

      Comment


      • I enjoy reading your posts Linda and I think you make a lot of sense. You are truly a Sabbath "Superfan" and your knowledge is seconded only by (I know you don't like him) the Doc. I'd rather see you two in some serious Sabbath discussions because I surely enjoy new info coming my way. What do you think Doc?

        All respect to you Linda.

        Paul

        Comment


        • This discussion became personal very quickly. The utilization of tendencies can be a useful tool when researching a topic, however any common generalizations must be refined by the specifics of a group, or individual, involved in the analysis. Unfortunately, the mindset of applying a label to individuals and groups often leads to inaccurate conclusions. Black Sabbath has never been pretentious, therefore, it is unlikely that an absolute fan profile exists. Individual personalities and preferences will always be variable.

          Perhaps a more interesting follow-up would be a discussion of the evolution of the typical Black Sabbath fan base. WC's first-hand account of his 1970's experience was interesting. Did Ozzy era Black Sabbath draw a different fan base than other eras? How do the later Ozzy era tours compare? My experiences with the 13 and End tours match those described previously by the White Wizard(NID).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Sabman Cometh View Post
            This discussion became personal very quickly. The utilization of tendencies can be a useful tool when researching a topic, however any common generalizations must be refined by the specifics of a group, or individual, involved in the analysis. Unfortunately, the mindset of applying a label to individuals and groups often leads to inaccurate conclusions. Black Sabbath has never been pretentious, therefore, it is unlikely that an absolute fan profile exists. Individual personalities and preferences will always be variable.

            Perhaps a more interesting follow-up would be a discussion of the evolution of the typical Black Sabbath fan base. WC's first-hand account of his 1970's experience was interesting. Did Ozzy era Black Sabbath draw a different fan base than other eras? How do the later Ozzy era tours compare? My experiences with the 13 and End tours match those described previously by the White Wizard(NID).
            Sabman Cometh, good to hear from you!

            Ah yes, good ol’ White Wizard, wonder what he’s up to these days, hope he and Mrs. NID are doing well.
            "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
            "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
            ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

            Comment


            • I do have a job, I work midnights six days per week at the Post Office, throwing parcels around. I have 3 young children and a spouse (who is most decidedly NOT a Black Sabbath fan, no need to ask her any questions) and a Photography hobby. Forum argument time is mostly spent elsewhere, as there typically isn't much to argue about here, especially if Black Sabbath is mostly considered a band for men, by-and-large. I believe that Black Sabbath is the source for the joke in Spinal Tap about the band being mostly for teenage adolescent boys. (Black Sabbath was the source for a great deal of Spinal Tap's comedy.)

              I no longer even know what the end-game of this argument is supposed to be. Am I supposed to admit that there might be more female Sabbath fans out there because there is one here on this board? Or am I supposed to have some Christmas Morning Scrooge awakening and denounce profiling and stereotyping as something useful? Am I supposed to vow to never ever use a blanket statement ever again? Am I supposed to agree to end every statement with "IMVHO"? I just don't even know what this is about anymore.

              The person whose name seems to be Linda, evidently, seems to feel marginalized or alienated because I, William, have no personal evidence (outside of the existence of the forum entity whose name is allegedly Linda) that any "real" female Black Sabbath fans exist.

              My criteria of asking a few conversational questions is now an Interrogation...pro tip: It's only an interrogation if you've got something to hide, and you've only got something to hide if you're feeling shame. If you're a fan, you WANT to talk about your favorite album, song, era, etc. I know I do...ask away, I won't sweat.

              Linda, if that is your real name, you do not need my validation. You are a Sabbath fan and nothing I think or believe will take that away from you. I am entitled to my personal experiences, opinions and statistics, and no amount of (whatever this is you're doing) is going to change that.

              If the situation were reversed, and you made a statement like "There are no Male Blondie fans" I would simply say "Hey, I LOVE Blondie (I do) I even like some of the newer stuff, and her re-recordings of the hits are very good considering she's 70+" and I would move on, you are free to process that however you like. If it changes your narrative, great, if not, If you find the exception proves the rule, great! Have fun with that. No skin off my back.

              So again, not sure what we're doing here or what the end-game is supposed to be.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
                I do have a job, I work midnights six days per week at the Post Office, throwing parcels around. I have 3 young children and a spouse (who is most decidedly NOT a Black Sabbath fan, no need to ask her any questions) and a Photography hobby. Forum argument time is mostly spent elsewhere, as there typically isn't much to argue about here, especially if Black Sabbath is mostly considered a band for men, by-and-large. I believe that Black Sabbath is the source for the joke in Spinal Tap about the band being mostly for teenage adolescent boys. (Black Sabbath was the source for a great deal of Spinal Tap's comedy.)

                I no longer even know what the end-game of this argument is supposed to be. Am I supposed to admit that there might be more female Sabbath fans out there because there is one here on this board? Or am I supposed to have some Christmas Morning Scrooge awakening and denounce profiling and stereotyping as something useful? Am I supposed to vow to never ever use a blanket statement ever again? Am I supposed to agree to end every statement with "IMVHO"? I just don't even know what this is about anymore.

                The person whose name seems to be Linda, evidently, seems to feel marginalized or alienated because I, William, have no personal evidence (outside of the existence of the forum entity whose name is allegedly Linda) that any "real" female Black Sabbath fans exist.

                My criteria of asking a few conversational questions is now an Interrogation...pro tip: It's only an interrogation if you've got something to hide, and you've only got something to hide if you're feeling shame. If you're a fan, you WANT to talk about your favorite album, song, era, etc. I know I do...ask away, I won't sweat.

                Linda, if that is your real name, you do not need my validation. You are a Sabbath fan and nothing I think or believe will take that away from you. I am entitled to my personal experiences, opinions and statistics, and no amount of (whatever this is you're doing) is going to change that.

                If the situation were reversed, and you made a statement like "There are no Male Blondie fans" I would simply say "Hey, I LOVE Blondie (I do) I even like some of the newer stuff, and her re-recordings of the hits are very good considering she's 70+" and I would move on, you are free to process that however you like. If it changes your narrative, great, if not, If you find the exception proves the rule, great! Have fun with that. No skin off my back.

                So again, not sure what we're doing here or what the end-game is supposed to be.

                Dear person whose name seems to be William,

                it is pretty ironic that you are now exactly doing what I, sarcastically, suggested in my post: if no more doubt is possible that the "female Sabbath ahem fan" is a real fan, why not start questioning her sex rather than her fandom? Of course my existence is not the only available counterevidence against your cliché, Jeff did mention there were many female Sabbath fans on Facebook, and there are at least a few more women on this very forum. Anyway, it is obvious that you decided to stick with your viewpoint no matter how often it gets refuted. That's sad; but of course it's your decision if you're willing to learn and sometimes question your views, or rather not. You seem to be wondering what's expected of you. Well, I hoped you would specifically respond to my rebuttals of some of your claims, so I spelled them out once again in my super-long post above. Billy shortly popped in and gave you a hint too. No use, you are obviously not interested in seriously responding to my arguments, let alone in learning anything new. I won't even try to start explaining why IMO your idea of a "conversation" with a "female Sabbath ahem fan" is not truly a conversation at all, but indeed an interrogation. I personally don't know many women who would be willing to be interviewed in such a way to "prove" they are true Sabbath fans (and truly female of course). "It's only an interrogation if you've got something to hide"? No sir, there's a lot more that distinguishes a proper conversation from an interrogation, as almost everybody should know from personal experience. If you don't, I am sorry for you. I won't waste any more words on you.

                Best,
                the person whose name seems to be Linda
                Last edited by Sabbabbath; 01-31-2018, 10:01 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Now in Darkness View Post
                  I agree with your OP Jeff. Any Sabbath show or Ozzy show I've been to was crawling with chicks, old farts like me, and older farts and couples in the 60+ category. I think it comes from the folklore of people who want to think that they are part of some exclusive club, and don't want to admit that they are fans of one of the biggest bands in the world. It plays to the sense of self when people say that Sabbath is a guys band, and somehow an obscure entity that they latched on to. My wife is one of those chicks that is at those shows, and she is a large part of the reason as to why we are flying 1/4 of the way across our country to see 2 shows in April. One other thing that might factor into the folklore is that Sabbath were pretty ugly dudes, except Ozzy, and did not have the centerfold look that some bands had. Tony's bowl cut bangs were just too far ahead of their time . Sabbath are a band for all music fans. I mean, my Mom even appreciates them, although that took time.
                  Originally posted by Now in Darkness View Post
                  The Beatles are arguably the best and biggest band ever, and they certainly had a massive female following. By some people's standards here, the Beatles might even be called the ultimate chick band. If female interest in a band is somehow considered to be a bad thing, then I would suggest that there are some people out there with serious identity issues. It takes no effort to alienate a gender, or any other demographic, for that matter. It takes huge talent to speak to both genders and maintain their interest. Fortunately, the Sabbath shows that I have been to have been reflective of a very mixed demographic, including lots of chicks. Besides, what male Sabbath fan truly wants to be surrounded by a sweaty sausage fest? Are girls really that scary? I know my wife would agree, Sabbath is for all people who appreciate cool music, no matter what their gender.
                  Very good points in my opinion, NiD, and very refreshing.

                  Originally posted by The Sabman Cometh View Post
                  The utilization of tendencies can be a useful tool when researching a topic, however any common generalizations must be refined by the specifics of a group, or individual, involved in the analysis. Unfortunately, the mindset of applying a label to individuals and groups often leads to inaccurate conclusions.
                  Exactly. If everybody acted that way, we would still believe that that the earth is flat and that every ship that gets too close to the edge of the earth will fall down. (I wouldn't be surprised though if there were indeed people on this forum who still believe that.)

                  Originally posted by The Sabman Cometh View Post
                  Perhaps a more interesting follow-up would be a discussion of the evolution of the typical Black Sabbath fan base. WC's first-hand account of his 1970's experience was interesting. Did Ozzy era Black Sabbath draw a different fan base than other eras? How do the later Ozzy era tours compare? My experiences with the 13 and End tours match those described previously by the White Wizard(NID).
                  I think a few posts earlier in this threat were already gesturing in that direction. I believe I remember someone suggesting that Sabbath's fan base seems to be more mixed (at least in terms of gender) in Europe (or maybe specifically in Northern Europe?) than in the USA (or even the whole American continent?). Some people suggested that Ozzy's solo career helped in attracting female fans. Some suggested that the proportion of female Sabbath fans was much lower in the 1970ies than later (but when later?), while at least Jeff, if I remember, was wondering if Dio-Sabbath possibly attracted less women than Ozzy-Sabbath. I cannot contribute much in terms of personal experience here, because I only attended one Sabbath show here in Germany in 1995, they were touring with Tiamat back then. As I already said above, I believe there were about 20% women, most of them dressed like die-hard metal fans and many with Sabbath shirts, while many others were mainly there because of Tiamat of course (at least in my region, Wildhoney was a hugely more successful album than Forbidden). Age varied pretty wildly from 16 to 58 I would say.
                  Last edited by Sabbabbath; 01-31-2018, 10:49 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Linda you bring some new energy and excitement to this forum, thank you.

                    I know you’re a real Sabbath fan.
                    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
                      Linda you bring some new energy and excitement to this forum, thank you.

                      I know you’re a real Sabbath fan.
                      Thank you! :-)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sabbabbath View Post
                        Dear person whose name seems to be William,

                        . I won't waste any more words on you.

                        Best,
                        the person whose name seems to be Linda
                        I mean you should definitely take this one thread and then make a huge big scary deal out of it.

                        I'm like at a 3 here, and you seem to be at 11.

                        So if I ever ask anyone what Sabbath song is their favorite, I'm issuing an interrogation. So that avenue of conversation is closed to me, I suppose. I guess I'll stick to "How's the weather?" from now on, should I meet any female Black Sabbath fans.

                        Sad.

                        Comment


                        • 1972. United States of America. Virginia Davies, a true pioneer.

                          Doesn't go for Iron Man, Paranoid, Sweet Leaf or any of that lightweight stuff, but straight to the heaviest song ever recorded by anyone at the time, Electric Funeral.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rollerjoint View Post
                            1972. United States of America. Virginia Davies, a true pioneer.
                            Doesn't go for Iron Man, Paranoid, Sweet Leaf or any of that lightweight stuff, but straight to the heaviest song ever recorded by anyone at the time, Electric Funeral
                            Awesome work again, Roller, thank you very much. What a fantastic archivist you are. Do you know anything else about Virginia Davies?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rollerjoint View Post
                              1972. United States of America. Virginia Davies, a true pioneer.

                              Doesn't go for Iron Man, Paranoid, Sweet Leaf or any of that lightweight stuff, but straight to the heaviest song ever recorded by anyone at the time, Electric Funeral.

                              Who is Virginia Davies Roller?
                              "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                              "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                              ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Billy Underdog View Post
                                Man, what hatred must be festering inside you when you just keep turning up everywhere, jumping in with your cheap low blows. You're an evil man, John.
                                Take a look at what you’re saying Bill, I don’t think you believe that.
                                "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                                "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                                ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

                                Comment

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