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Originally posted by Sabbabbath View PostThanks for your great post too, Alex. You are of course right. I think my asking for a comparison of the LPs was naive. The reason why I asked nevertheless was that I was (still am) pretty puzzled about the fact that several people still seem to believe that the 2017 vs. the 2012 box are sourced from different, if somewhat similar, masterings, or at least sound different. I simply don't hear those differences on any of the digital files I have checked, plus the huge digital similarities suggest that there hardly COULD be any notable difference. I was just wondering if this contradiction might be due to the fact that the people who purchased the vinyl box have listened to the LPs, while I have only listened to the digital files. But then again, both IRON-MaN and the Doc have confirmed they are referring to the digital files too. So the puzzle persists even for the digital files, regardless of how the vinyl records sound.
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Originally posted by IRON-MaN View PostI don't think there is debate much on whether or not those new remasters were taken from the very same source , most likely they are (one way or other)
Originally posted by IRON-MaN View PostI think you and many members here should have joined the launching TYW box set held at regent sounds studios a couple of months back and laid all your questions on Andy , Tom Allom and everyone else that were involved with such projectLast edited by Sabbabbath; 12-16-2017, 07:42 AM.
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Originally posted by Sabbabbath View PostI am a fanatic too, I just cannot afford to buy it all. :-D"Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
"If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
________Sabbath Forever, Forever Sabbath!______OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)
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Originally posted by Sabbabbath View PostThanks for another great post, Jeff. However, if we talk about limitations of digital audio, we should maybe keep in mind the many limitations of vinyl LPs (NOT analog per se) too. If I understand correctly, the music stored in a vinyl record needs to be compressed and EQed and frequencies due to limitations of the format. Thus, the sound of LPs is also necessarily "chopped off" in many ways. Nevertheless, I have experienced, like you and the DOC, that original LPs (and possibly any vinyl record?) tend to sound warmer and more 'alive' than digital copies of the same recording. So I can easily agree with both of you that something is 'missing' from digital recordings that is 'present' on vinyl. Anyway, Jeff, what do you think of Reel-to-Reel vs. vinyl? Some articles I read would imply that an AAA Reel-to-Real should (other things being equal) sound even much less "chopped off" than an AAA vinyl of the same recording.
Also, do you agree or disagree with the Doc that "Digital cleaning Will NOT always show up on measurements" and that digitally identical audio recordings can sound different? And can you confirm or falsify that the TYW Just curious for your opinion.
Many of us bought music we had already purchased; again.
;-)
With respect to your specific points, Linda, I'll just say that no general characterization can be used about vinyl's sonic possibilities or "limitations." Most rock music does not have dynamic range significant enough to require much compression for vinyl mastering, but compression can be used as a "tool" just like anything. This stuff is all a part of the final picture. Kevin Gray's cut of Paranoid for Rhino (2004) was probably as dynamic as I've ever heard the album. The slam was astonishing. It had too much treble for my taste and was not my cup of tea overall, but the point is that I would not doubt if we just use Paranoid as an example, different LP versions could differ by 3-4db in terms of their compression.
Often these things are as much or more about a mastering engineer's sonic goals than vinyl's needs. Vinyl can handle plenty.
Classical music, yes. Having the additional dynamic range can be an advantage. But in my view the notion that most rock music can't be mastered to vinyl without sacrifice is arguably an idea put forth by someone with something to sell in nearly every case. Either that's why you need the CD instead. Or that's why you need the NEW vinyl version instead, because "technology advances." IMO, this is exaggerated gobbledygook.
As for R2R, forget it. It will never be cost effective. Acoustic Sounds has been doing some Classical titles on R2R. Know how much they are? $500 each. And yes that's two zeros after the five. So this is niche market. Vinyl is the most cost effective way for most of us to get pure analogue sound. And I doubt that will change any time soon. Cassettes have made a comeback, but I don't think it will amount to a pimple on vinyl's overall reach if one considers the "used" market on Discogs, eBay, local record shops and so forth ...
In the end, to some extent ... music either moves us or it doesn't. I could listen to Sabbath on a transistor radio and hear the inherent magic. OTOH, I do think for people to act like sound doesn't matter when it comes to music are kidding themselves. As you know, I listen to Sabbath bootlegs of any sound quality; but music IS sound. How could one listening to music NOT care about it? Even bootlegs I don't want futzed with by some amateur who starts using his little software tools without much TLC. And when it comes to albums, I've just realized that (for me) analogue speaks to me. And for me vinyl does the job of conveying that sound more than adequately."It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
-WTB
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Totally agree vinyl is a much warmer sound that captures the "space" between notes in the studio. Growing up with vinyl, I was never a big fan of the digital CD medium when it eventually took over. CDs may be more convenient, but there's a reason vinyl has made a comeback. And yea, I still remember listening to transistor radios on the beach as a youngsterI have a distinct memory of turning up the volume when The Who's Join Together came on the radio one hot Summer day!
"Music is so sacred to me that I cant hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
R. Blackmore
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IMHO, vinyl sound is just a matter of acquired taste. Same as tape cassettes, 8-tracks, reel-to-reel.............same as everything else. I'm sure if our grandparents would be alive they would tell how much vinyl sucked versus shellacAnd their grandparents would say that nothing sounded like a good old wax cylinders, and shellac & vinyls were for wimps.
I'm all up for hi quality sound. No clicks, pops and hiss. I find all those artifacts disgusting and irritating. And this late trend of issuing stuff on vinyl only just pisses me off as you can easily hear how much inferior this stuff to the original digital stuff it's all pressed from. I'm talking not Sabbath releases/reissues, but some new bands releases. Especially having in mind, that there's almost no new equipment left, it's all pressed on machines, that mostly almost 40 years old.
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Originally posted by AlexBarghest View PostIMHO, vinyl sound is just a matter of acquired taste. Same as tape cassettes, 8-tracks, reel-to-reel.............same as everything else. I'm sure if our grandparents would be alive they would tell how much vinyl sucked versus shellacAnd their grandparents would say that nothing sounded like a good old wax cylinders, and shellac & vinyls were for wimps..
Originally posted by AlexBarghest View PostI'm all up for hi quality sound. No clicks, pops and hiss. I find all those artifacts disgusting and irritating.
Originally posted by AlexBarghest View PostAnd this late trend of issuing stuff on vinyl only just pisses me off as you can easily hear how much inferior this stuff to the original digital stuff it's all pressed from. I'm talking not Sabbath releases/reissues, but some new bands releases.
Originally posted by AlexBarghest View PostEspecially having in mind, that there's almost no new equipment left, it's all pressed on machines, that mostly almost 40 years old."It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
-WTB
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Just TBH about one thing in terms of the new box. SONICALLY speaking, only ...
Vol. 4 has had so much treble added that it's not be believed. It sounds really wonky to me and is just too far removed from the album I know and worship. It reminds me a bit of that awful color vinyl version issued last year. Maybe it is the same mastering?
Even things like Tony's right hand screeching during fast chord movements in "Wheels Of Confusion" ("Lost on the wheels of confusion ... ") seem like they've been digitally altered.
Any "warmth" of vinyl isn't going to be heard when mastered like this. I know some people feel parts of Vol. 4 were kind of muddy, but this is like killing a fly with a bazooka."It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
-WTB
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Originally posted by Jeff View Postthis is like killing a fly with a bazooka.
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Originally posted by Jeff View Postlike killing a fly with a bazooka.95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr
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Originally posted by Billy Underdog View PostIs that actually a saying/proverb or just something you made up yourself? 'Cause in Norwegian we've got the saying "shooting sparrows with canons", but i've never known an English equivalent.
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Originally posted by Billy Underdog View PostIs that actually a saying/proverb or just something you made up yourself? 'Cause in Norwegian we've got the saying "shooting sparrows with canons", but i've never known an English equivalent.
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