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Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Another reason I think Tony I. should have gone out with Martin under a different name, you don't drag around a marquee name like BS when your current singer is a"stop gap" between Ozzy & RJD. T. Martin is a fine singer, and Iommi gets cudos for hiring him, they certainly made great respectable, if not commercially viable music, I really think keeping the name BS actually hurt record sales and concert tickets in the US. People weren't buying a band with one original player, even if he is the player...
    I agree. The name should've been changed before Seventh Star came out. Weather it was a completely new name or Iommi just used his, a change should've been made. It would've given the material and a little more credibility with a lot of music fans. I saw them live in 1995 and even though it was a good show and Iommi was there and they were playing Sabbath tunes, it still didn't quite feel like Black Sabbath to me. Weath it was no Geezer, Ozzy or Dio there was just something missing that night for me.

    I think a name change would've brought some more album sales. I'm not sure if it would've been significantly more considering IRS records didn't seem into promoting the material much at all. But that could've had to do with the material having the Black Sabbath name on it. The company knew nobody would be buying it so they probably decided not to bother with heavy promotion at all.
    Nobody will ever let you know
    When you ask the reason why
    They just tell you that you're on your own
    Fill your head all full of lies

    Comment


    • #32
      If Tony Martin was abused? I don't think so. For my concern there is no abuse when you do a job, is payed for it but then you are, finally, let go.

      Now, if he was mistreated and disrespected as a friend? HELL YEAH, with whole capital letters on the sentence.

      As DioSword said before, Tony Martin came in to save the day four times. I mean, brother, I for one would do that once, twice if much. Of course that we don't know how much he was offered back then, but as even Tony himself had said "before all things, I'm a fan". For that, for only that, I think he should be treated more equally and more respectfully.

      Btw, even Geoff Nicholls who is best mate with Tony Iommi (they even walk their dogs together when Tony go to UK) got booted by Black Sabbath. According to that I was told, when Ozzy called BS for a Ozzyfest somewhere circa 2006, his only (by that I say Sharon) condition was to bring Ozzy's keyboard player (Adam Wakeman) together. Why that? He was cheaper than Geoff.

      From what I was told, Tony came to Geoff and explained the situation. He needed the cash and he needed the gig. Geoff said ok, took his things and left, no hurt feelings, still being pal with Iommi. But he was fired once by Iommi, Tony Martin goot the boot four times... That's too much for a friendship, I guess.
      Can't you see what I see
      You and I victims of Their word
      As the master of power
      Try to poison our world
      ----- Eternal Idol ~ 1987

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ray Rules View Post
        If Tony Martin was abused? I don't think so. For my concern there is no abuse when you do a job, is payed for it but then you are, finally, let go.

        Now, if he was mistreated and disrespected as a friend? HELL YEAH, with whole capital letters on the sentence.

        As DioSword said before, Tony Martin came in to save the day four times. I mean, brother, I for one would do that once, twice if much. Of course that we don't know how much he was offered back then, but as even Tony himself had said "before all things, I'm a fan". For that, for only that, I think he should be treated more equally and more respectfully.

        Btw, even Geoff Nicholls who is best mate with Tony Iommi (they even walk their dogs together when Tony go to UK) got booted by Black Sabbath. According to that I was told, when Ozzy called BS for a Ozzyfest somewhere circa 2006, his only (by that I say Sharon) condition was to bring Ozzy's keyboard player (Adam Wakeman) together. Why that? He was cheaper than Geoff.

        From what I was told, Tony came to Geoff and explained the situation. He needed the cash and he needed the gig. Geoff said ok, took his things and left, no hurt feelings, still being pal with Iommi. But he was fired once by Iommi, Tony Martin goot the boot four times... That's too much for a friendship, I guess.
        hmmmm..... the history is fascinating.
        I get the impression from interviews that Iommi and Martin totally broke contact, finally.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by unplugged-unfretted View Post
          hmmmm..... the history is fascinating.
          I get the impression from interviews that Iommi and Martin totally broke contact, finally.
          Yes, you are right. There was a void between 1997 and 2009. No social cals, no meetings, no nothing. From what I was told the first time TM spoke and Iommi after more than a decade was in Russia, when Tony Martin Band performed and Iommi was there as a guest and they met backstage. What happened? Only social talk "how u doing?" and etc.

          Contact between then is so inexistent that somebody (whose name I won't say) played Iommi some instrumental tracks from Tony Martin's Scream and Tony Iommi only nod and said he didn't knew what was that.

          So you can imagine how "well" Tony Martin took his forth boot from Sabbath.
          Can't you see what I see
          You and I victims of Their word
          As the master of power
          Try to poison our world
          ----- Eternal Idol ~ 1987

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ray Rules View Post
            Yes, you are right. There was a void between 1997 and 2009. No social cals, no meetings, no nothing. From what I was told the first time TM spoke and Iommi after more than a decade was in Russia, when Tony Martin Band performed and Iommi was there as a guest and they met backstage. What happened? Only social talk "how u doing?" and etc.

            Contact between then is so inexistent that somebody (whose name I won't say) played Iommi some instrumental tracks from Tony Martin's Scream and Tony Iommi only nod and said he didn't knew what was that.

            So you can imagine how "well" Tony Martin took his forth boot from Sabbath.
            Such a fascinating history - - - it all really makes you wonder! ...and the relationship thing, in my opinion, reflects heavily on/in the music too.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Ray Rules View Post
              Now, if he was mistreated and disrespected as a friend? HELL YEAH, with whole capital letters on the sentence.

              Yes, but what makes you think they were ever friends? I don't mean to say they hated each other, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that their relationship extented to anything outside of the band at any time. There are a great many bands where the members function simply as co-workers and little more.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
                Yes, but what makes you think they were ever friends? I don't mean to say they hated each other, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that their relationship extented to anything outside of the band at any time. There are a great many bands where the members function simply as co-workers and little more.
                Yes, thats probably true, but let's face this:

                "Original" band was: Iommi, Martin, Murray, Powell and Nichols.

                Besides Iommi, all others are still attached and close friends.

                Plus, I don't know about you or how things works for american or british folks, but here if you work for 10 years traveling, sharing bus and hotel rooms, you become more than friends.

                And seeing and hearing how Nichols and Martin interacted with each other, I can say that they were and are best friends.
                Can't you see what I see
                You and I victims of Their word
                As the master of power
                Try to poison our world
                ----- Eternal Idol ~ 1987

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ray Rules View Post
                  Yes, thats probably true, but let's face this:

                  "Original" band was: Iommi, Martin, Murray, Powell and Nichols.

                  Besides Iommi, all others are still attached and close friends.

                  Plus, I don't know about you or how things works for american or british folks, but here if you work for 10 years traveling, sharing bus and hotel rooms, you become more than friends.

                  And seeing and hearing how Nichols and Martin interacted with each other, I can say that they were and are best friends.
                  Well, think about how many bands are together where guys don't even speak off stage. Most of Motley Crue seems to hate each other. Johnny and Joey Ramone almost never spoke offstage. Ray and Dave Davies from the Kinks allegedly hated each other, as well. Bands are loaded with egos. I read a quote from Bruce Johnston, whose been with the Beach Boys since 1965 where he said he was friendly with the other guys but never spend time with them when they weren't on the road because they didn't have that kind of relationship. I'm sure that Martin and Iommi were friendly, but it doesn't sound like they were particularly close. Iommi sounds like he's a guy who's got a close circle of friends that's tough to penetrate. Martin and Nichols might be close friends, I have no idea, but I do sense that Nichols was high on Martin's talents, which would explain them working together. I guess Cozy Powell was, too. Although Nichols and Iommi are close personal friends, the things I've read sound like Iommi was sort of distant, personally, from the other band members. That might explain the other guys bonding, seeing that their might have been a wall between Iommi and the rest. But I don't know, it's just speculation. Besides, I've read things from several ex Sabbath members saying that for most of the '80s and '90s, following the Born Again-era, Tony (and Geezer, too) were basically hoping and waiting for Ozzy to come back. I think that even Martin has said that. It may explain why Iommi might not have gotten really close to Martin and was quick to replace him all the time.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
                    Ray and Dave Davies from the Kinks allegedly hated each other, as well.
                    No allegedly to it, lol. Dave pretty much hates his brother's guts and slags him at every opportunity while only grudgingly conceded his talents as a songwriter. They are the ultimate feuding brothers in rock history. They make the Gallagher brothers from Oasis seem just a little cranky.

                    ---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

                    Sometimes, in all of our adoration of Iommi, I think we fail to comprehend that he has been a demanding guy to work for. Talents like him are strong Type A personalities. Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who carried a legendary name in the music world squarely on his back, through profound ups and downs, for virtually the entirety of the band's existance. Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who had to relearn the guitar following a freak work-related accident. He seems to have mellowed, but Tony has been a driven man. His sole aim from the mid 1980's through the late 1990's was to return Black Sabbath to a position of prominence within the music industry. It's a business. When Ronnie James Dio became available for the Dehumanizer album, Tony and his management made a business decision to kill a lineup that had become surprisingly viable and seemed to be revitalizing the band's fortunes to a degree. Later, Tony once again made a business decision and axed Martin again when a lucrative reunion with Ozzy was possible at last.

                    There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                      Sometimes, in all of our adoration of Iommi, I think we fail to comprehend that he has been a demanding guy to work for. Talents like him are strong Type A personalities.
                      Yes...Garry Sharpe-Young relates that during the dust-up over the Live Evil mix, Iommi bellowed I'm in fucking charge here! at the studio engineer. Remember also that for all his talent, Frank Anthony Iommi is still the street kid from Aston who wasn't averse to punching out people who he perceived as screwing Black Sabbath over. Ozzy relates a couple of those stories in his biography.

                      I wonder what it was like for Ronnie James Dio (a Type A personality himself) to go from one Type A personality (Ritchie Blackmore) to another (Tony Iommi) in the space of just a couple of years.

                      Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                      Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who carried a legendary name in the music world squarely on his back, through profound ups and downs, for virtually the entirety of the band's existance.
                      And was ridiculed to hell for it from about 1984 onward. Kerrang! loved taking the piss out of him...remember the April Fool's "Tom Jones Joins Black Sabbath" story?

                      Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                      When Ronnie James Dio became available for the Dehumanizer album, Tony and his management made a business decision to kill a lineup that had become surprisingly viable and seemed to be revitalizing the band's fortunes to a degree. Later, Tony once again made a business decision and axed Martin again when a lucrative reunion with Ozzy was possible at last.
                      And in hindsight, given the way both of those situations turned out, I wonder if he kicked himself for it.

                      Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                      There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.
                      Agreed fully, and attested to by Cozy Powell, Neil Murray and Geoff Nicholls.

                      Martin may have been "just" an employee of Tony Iommi, but rarely in the music industry or the business world do you find one who is such a team player.

                      For all my criticisms of Ozzy and $haron, I'll give them this: they give Ozzy's band members no illusion of permanence.

                      ---------- Post added at 01:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

                      Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                      No allegedly to it, lol. Dave pretty much hates his brother's guts and slags him at every opportunity while only grudgingly conceded his talents as a songwriter. They are the ultimate feuding brothers in rock history. They make the Gallagher brothers from Oasis seem just a little cranky.
                      Then there's The Who.

                      ---------- Post added at 01:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------

                      Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
                      Iommi sounds like he's a guy who's got a close circle of friends that's tough to penetrate.
                      I have read varying accounts of Tony Iommi as a person.

                      Ozzy once called him "Darth Vader."

                      Ronnie James Dio said that Tony is "very reserved...he stands onstage and plays his instrument...he's not a leaper."

                      Dave Spitz said "he's like the nicest guy in the world."

                      I have never had the honour of meeting him, but he strikes me as being very much in his own little world and quite shy. That can often be mistaken as arrogance. I am much the same way so I relate.
                      He is not here. He has risen!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
                        I have read varying accounts of Tony Iommi as a person.

                        Ozzy once called him "Darth Vader."

                        Ronnie James Dio said that Tony is "very reserved...he stands onstage and plays his instrument...he's not a leaper."

                        Dave Spitz said "he's like the nicest guy in the world."

                        I have never had the honour of meeting him, but he strikes me as being very much in his own little world and quite shy. That can often be mistaken as arrogance. I am much the same way so I relate.
                        Neil Murray said that Tony Iommi is a nice man who hates conflicts, which is why whenever someone tells him he'll do his dirty work for him, he'll just accept (which has been the case with most evictions in Sabbath). But, on the other hand, if you wish to engage a direct conflict with him, then you have to be ready to be punched through a wall !

                        I think all these accounts are true. Tony is a human being, like all of us. People are complex. We're not the same person at every moment of the day or with everyone we deal with. I think overall he's a good guy who's had his share of mistakes and "bastard moments", and you don't want to fuck with him !
                        Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
                        "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Tony Martin was not "abused" by Sabbath. He was a contractor who did a job ... nobody held a gun to his head to keep coming back. If he had better things to do he would have been doing them.

                          I admire Martyin for his work and his tenure with the band, but the answer to the question this thread poses is "no."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Yes, well, you guys are right. But, as a response to the initial question I will quote dude above:

                            Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

                            J Hillenburg: There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.

                            DioSword: Agreed fully, and attested to by Cozy Powell, Neil Murray and Geoff Nicholls.

                            Martin may have been "just" an employee of Tony Iommi, but rarely in the music industry or the business world do you find one who is such a team player.
                            Can't you see what I see
                            You and I victims of Their word
                            As the master of power
                            Try to poison our world
                            ----- Eternal Idol ~ 1987

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It occurs to me that perhaps Mr. Martin was the victim of being in a band called Black Sabbath, within which there is a certain amount of pressure to "be Black Sabbath". After listening to stuff like G//Z/R and "Kiss of Death" recently, and reading some of the interviews with Geezer from around the time that the first G//Z/R album came out (Geezer said something along the lines of being "Deep Purple Mark 10" and having nothing to do with the original idea of Black Sabbath), it got me to wondering if perhaps some configuration of the Martin Era might have been more stable if it weren't called Black Sabbath. I am not meaning to disrespect that era at all, or say that it isn't Black Sabbath - it is, and I often find myself wishing there were more of it. But what I am trying to say here is that, maybe, if the band had been called something else, there wouldn't have been pressures/ideas to "get back Dio", "get back Ozzy", "get ALL the original guys back together", "get rid of Tony Martin", etc, and maybe as some "other project / band" it might have existed longer in some fashion, or even today, even though we did get the original Black Sabbath back, and the Dio era back (twice).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by fondula View Post
                                if the band had been called something else, there wouldn't have been pressures/ideas to "get back Dio", "get back Ozzy", "get ALL the original guys back together", "get rid of Tony Martin", etc,
                                And probably no contract either!
                                The dog's name is Pete. If he tries to mount you in the middle of the night, say "no" sternly. But don't look him in the eye.

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